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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Because they gave you the focused attention you want from your husband. Would he be willing to call Dr. H? He can convince him to try.

This makes a lot of sense to me - the focussed attention thing. He will tell you he gave me focussed attention at the start of our relationship and it never resulted in any lust or major sexual desire in me. And with realising that most of the men I felt that way towards were in cheating situations, he just thinks that is my turn on and I can’t ever feel that way in a committed relationship. That’s why I posted on here to see others opinions as I don’t really know the answer.

I’m not sure he will talk to Dr Harley but maybe if it is a final request from me then maybe.

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Originally Posted by willingwife
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Because they gave you the focused attention you want from your husband. Would he be willing to call Dr. H? He can convince him to try.

This makes a lot of sense to me - the focussed attention thing. He will tell you he gave me focussed attention at the start of our relationship and it never resulted in any lust or major sexual desire in me. And with realising that most of the men I felt that way towards were in cheating situations, he just thinks that is my turn on and I can’t ever feel that way in a committed relationship. That’s why I posted on here to see others opinions as I don’t really know the answer.

Did you take a look at the lovebank article? People fall in love based on how well their needs are met. "Focused attention" might not be meeting your needs at all. People fall in love when the intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment are met and met WELL.

His success in meeting your needs is determined by your feelings for him and it doesn't sound like he has done a good job in that regard. If he wants you to be in love with him, he needs to become a PRO at meeting your needs. I would print up the article about the lovebank and give it to him so he understands how passion and romance is created.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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This thread is really striking a chord with me. I have been (and still am in your husband's situation) and it is not a fun place to be. In looking for advice and plans and talking to others; I have found quite a few men dealing with this situation and it is really hard and ego damaging.

Most men have a need for admiration and when they feel their wife is providing it to someone else (even if it is just in her thoughts)... he'll first be angry that it is happening; then desperate to gain it for himself... if he determines that he can't get it (like oh she just wants 'bad-boys' or she can only be open that way with stronger, smarter, more handsome, etc guys) he will feel hopeless and bounce back and forth between being angry and judging his wife to desperately demanding she change and flip some switch and give it to him. When the best line of action would be to do admirable actions that bring about his wife's admiration. I would say that his wife could help him by highlighting attributes/actions she finds admirable... BUT not in a way that creates comparison or competition with others. Examples:

I really like it when you take time when you get home to talk to me... NOT I noticed Bob always takes time when he gets home to talk to Susan; I'd like it if you did that.

I really enjoy it when your caring and affectionate side shines through for me... NOT John always seems so caring and affectionate; I'd like it if you were more like that.

I really get excited when you're confident and assertive... CERTAINLY NOT When I dated Tom he was assertive and confident and I found it exciting.

I will say there is hope, but it does require a lot of work and honesty with each other. And my wife (smileyk28) and I aren't completely on the other side but we are working it and there is progress. As for 100% guarantee... those don't exist in life.

Just reading this; I'm guessing your husband is feeling hopeless and is stuck in his head and angry and insecure... which probably makes him a joy to be around. But where you two are at right now is not where you have to stay.

Originally Posted by willingwife
I am not actually fantasizing about anything, except an incredible magical marriage with my husband.

If the above quote is true; I really do think you can make it. And I would encourage you to not let go and keep encouraging your husband to give it a try. It will take both of you to fix it; but only one of you to blow it all up.

So Just going through the thread I have some questions and thoughts:

Originally Posted by willingwife
This week I have finally come to a very scary realization. The type of men I find insanely attractive are cheating types.
Originally Posted by willingwife
This makes a lot of sense to me - the focussed attention thing. He will tell you he gave me focussed attention at the start of our relationship and it never resulted in any lust or major sexual desire in me. And with realizing that most of the men I felt that way towards were in cheating situations, he just thinks that is my turn on and I can’t ever feel that way in a committed relationship. That’s why I posted on here to see others opinions as I don’t really know the answer.

From your first post to the last it comes off as at first the realization that your type is the 'bad-boy' cheating type... to it was your husband's realization. I'm not sure but he may have gaslighted himself it focusing on this aspect of your previous relationships and then by hamstering it in his head and incessantly focusing on it gaslighted you it to focusing on it as well.

From his perspective, this would be frustrating for many reasons. One you would always be afraid that some 'cheating type' (and they do exist - I have known men that exclusively pursue married women) could approach your wife (a real possibility) and even if she doesn't step-out she will be thinking about it. Two if he has got it in his head that the flirting and sneaking around is the turn-on... well to be blunt no man wants to feel like a fool and a cuck.

How did this even come up? I ask because you mention:

Originally Posted by willingwife
He saw me with a couple of other men early on when we first met so he knows what I am like when I am extremely attracted to someone, but I've never felt or acted like that towards him. Because he wasn't that "type".

Did he ever question before marriage why you were a certain way with these other men and not him?

Originally Posted by willingwife
mb_hope what I mean by that are Dr. Harley's extraordinary precautions like never spending a night apart, no personal friendships with members of the opposite sex, no contact with ex's, boundaries around other men etc.

This is good; have you always practiced this in your marriage?

Originally Posted by willingwife
There is no other possible OM in the picture except for memories of the past. And it's not really me who has the fear of moving forward it's my husband. He doesn't want to fall in love with me only to still come second. I completely understand that.

I understand completely what he is wanting here - he's worried you're just staying 'because it's the right thing to do' and not because you 'want' him.
It's good there aren't any possible OM and it needs to stay that way.
He also needs to make sure there are no possible OW. In the state, he is in (feeling really low in the admiration area) if he isn't careful it is really easy for some flirty woman, etc to make inroads by stroking his ego.
You both are responsible for your own emotional sobriety and actions.

Neither one of you is second - you are married. You need to both have blinders on and be focused on each other more than anything.

Originally Posted by willingwife
We are not dating and have never really dated. In the beginning we were saving money and didn't have much so never really dated and since having children they have been a full focus

This needs to change. Find cheap dates - go to the gym and put the kids in the nursery, take walks, picnics whatever you have to do. I get having kids and they need your time. But if you get divorced you're only going to see them half the time; so you two making time for each other may seem selfish but it benefits your kids.

Originally Posted by willingwife
He is the one being cautious about doing the program because he is not convinced it will give us the results we want. He would rather first make any changes necessary beforehand. Now physical changes are fairly easy and some personality changes as well, however we have hit a wall with this realization that the men I have been properly attracted to in my life were all cheating, flirting types. So we are not sure how to move forward now.

He needs to do something because obviously what you two were doing wasn't working. You move forward by deciding to focus on fulfilling eachother's needs and avoiding love busters and implementing extraordinary precautions so no one else (real, fantasy, memory, etc) has the ability to usurp your spouse's place as the depositor in your love bank.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by willingwife
It's more that he needs my attraction towards him to trump all other attractions I've had; past, present and future. I totally understand that!

Yes, of course and that's what you should do. I would stop talking about the past completely and stop these destructive comparisons. It is very destructive. I understand that he wants passion in his marriage and that is very attainable, but talk of other men and other "types" is counter productive. He needs to learn to do a super job of meeting your needs and vice versa. But none of that will ever happen if you aren't following the policy of undivided attention.

Yep

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
But you wouldn't be his dream girl, the porn star would. And what if you are a 55 yr old woman who is being compared to an 18 yr old porn star? Do you think that's fair? Of course not. It is profoundly disrespectful and has no place in marriage. When you get married, the competition is closed.

I second this a lot. And it is not just the example of comparing a 55-year-old to an 18-year-old -- any comparison is out of line. We can easily see that the 55-year-old to 18 year old is out of line; but even comparing 55-year-olds to other 55-year-olds is out of line. we should make every attempt to give our spouse the best version of ourselves; but we shouldn't have to compete with others. Going down the comparison rabbit hole is dangerous because there is always someone better-looking, richer, more 'compatible', more affectionate etc.

Originally Posted by willingwife
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
He is not second to anything. He is married to you. The objective is to fall in love with each other. I would stop bringing up your past boyfriends, it is destructive and very disrespectful to your husband.

It's not me who brings them up, he does. He has chosen to compete with them.

How is he bringing them up? He should know about your past and you two should be following the policy of radical honesty. Are they questions about your past relationships that he doesn't know? Or is he just angry and bringing them up to keep the idea he and you have that you can't be turned on unless it is some cheating type guy?

Originally Posted by willingwife
Originally Posted by happyheart
Technically it is a psychological normality to have more intense feelings of anything when arousal is heightened by anxiety or uncertainty. Therefore things or people which are ‚dangerous‘ or new will always be illiciting a higher level of ecxitement in your brain.
Because our reward circuits drive us to especially take interest in things new or dangerous. We would not have survived as a species without this.

Therefore, Dr Harley recommends doing fun and exciting things with your spouse and excercising with your spouse, because the brain will facilitate you falling in love under those conditions, because of heightened general arousal.

Nvertheless, stop thinking about the excitement of the past, because you never got to experience the downside of these people, just imagine them nagging to you about dirty socks next to the hamper, next time you have those thoughts.
Also, as you age, your excitement and attraction levels go down a bit because of having experiences with lots of things and because your hormones will be less erratic than at the end of puberty.

So stop comparing your attraction levels with those of some bums from the past and start doing exciting things with your husband without the kids 4 hours at a time.

Thanks for your reply and for your honesty. You’ve actually voiced a lot of my husband’s thoughts and concerns regarding the excitement with something wrong and also the age factor.

I’ve argued with him that we are not that old but unfortunately if what you say is true I am staring down the barrel of a divorce! He is not willing to make any moves in our marriage unless I can have more intense lust towards him than these past fellows. We will either stay together as semi-friends (which I’m not willing to do as I know we will hate and resent each other when we are older) or we will divorce so he can find someone else who feels that way towards him.

We’re both keen to do the marriage builders program but he needs more of a guarantee that it will give him the result he wants before jumping in.

Guess what the future is always new and uncertain; focus on the excitement of that.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by willingwife
We’re both keen to do the marriage builders program but he needs more of a guarantee that it will give him the result he wants before jumping in.

It's his job to cause you to fall in love with him but I bet comments like this don't help at all. If he wants you to be in love, he needs to get to work. No one can do this for him.

I agree and you also need to be honest about what your needs are and how you would like them met and any love busters need to be dealt with.

Originally Posted by willingwife
He doesn’t really care if I’m in love with him as long as I’m lusting after him. If we have the lust component then he’ll want to be in love.

Problem is there was lust with these other people even though I wasn’t in love with any of them.

He wants both; but if forced to choose he wants to make sure there is lust. I do think he can get both but not necessarily one without the other and even if he could -- how would he know?

I really do understand his dilemma here and wish that I had some great answer.
To be honest this is the biggest issue I am struggling with as well.

He doesn't want to be loved in spite of your real or perceived lack of chemistry with him.

In Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders Harley writes in the section called The Beauty Contest about measuring the galvanic skin response of women as various men stood in front of them without saying or doing anything - the larger the response the more emotionally attractive the male was determined to be. What causes some women to respond to some men instantly in such a way and vice-versa?

I've done a lot of reading on this subject -- and there are no hard and fast conclusions.

One study was interesting in that it found during ovulation women were more likely to have more positive responses than during their non-fertile times and men, in general, had more positive responses overall than women did. My guess on this would be that humans are animals and have a natural desire to propagate the species.

Now that is just initial response and while not to be dismissed out of hand; probably not something a marriage could be built on alone.

The upside is the response can be built and grown. In another study the took newlyweds and measured their responses and continued to do so over a period of 5 years. Those that reported positive marriages had shown GSR elevations those that reported problems had lowered or disappeared.

So wherever you are at now -- if you make deposits into each other's love banks and keep going the desire will come. As for the rabbit hole question of can, there be lust without the building of love between you -- there really is no way to know.

I'll use myself here; I love my wife but as we have had issues and struggles my desire at times has taken a hit (maybe not as much as a woman's would have just do to the fact I have testosterone in my system at higher levels than most women). When we are doing well and spending time together and I keep others from making deposits my desire grows... but if you were to say what would be the desire if you stripped out the fact she is my wife and mother of my kids etc -- just put her in front of me and I didn't know her from Eve... well she is attractive but I have no idea what my level would be because I can't strip out all the good and bad experiences I have had with her. I can just focus on making more deposits and let her do the same and guess what it will grow -- so to his desire for the desire to be greater than what you had for others... it will be because he has an opportunity they don't your willingness to let him make deposits.

I think this can get really complicated and would love to see Dr. Harley address the issue more directly. Now granted this is marriage builders and not random one-night stand builders.

However, it would be fascinating -- basically in our day and age with mobile dating apps -- like tinder; what makes a woman swipe right on a guy and with minimal conversation set up a hookup? I know some use these apps and really just set up dates and sometimes a relationship is built; but as for those that are just setting up one night stands with strangers in the apparent absence of conversation, affection, recreational companionship -- you are left with sexual fulfillment but this has typically been perceived as male thing; sex for just the sake of sex.







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If anyone is interested, I emailed Dr Harley and got a response from him. They also talked about it in the show you can listen to. It’s the first topic on the show currently playing on the app 23rd July 2019.

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Originally Posted by willingwife
If anyone is interested, I emailed Dr Harley and got a response from him. They also talked about it in the show you can listen to. It’s the first topic on the show currently playing on the app 23rd July 2019.

Thanks! He said the way to resolve the problem is to fall in love:

1. your husband needs to become skilled at making lovebank deposits. Focus on intimate conversation, physical attraction, [is he physically attractive? can he improve?] affection, sexual fulfillment. What about recreational companionship? Look at improving in each of these areas.

2. is he making lovebank withdrawals? What are his lovebusters? Look at all 6 of the lovebusters. Take the lovebusters inventory. lovebusters inventory

3. Lifestyle? Is your lifestyle happy?

Did you let your husband listen to the show?



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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willingwife:

Any update on this?

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