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I will see what I can find out. I'm realizing that I made assumptions without explicitly confirming them.

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
I will see what I can find out. I'm realizing that I made assumptions without explicitly confirming them.
Well, what you've assumed so far doesn't make much sense. I don't understand how what OMW said makes sense to you, and why you didn't ask questions.



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I asked OMW about whether she has reasons to believe an affair is taking place. She said she discovered OM and my wife having a conversation that was described as "very private" and that OM was not willing to allow OMW to hear that conversation. That may have included some discussions of our divorce and financials, based on information my wife sent me. OMW also reports that OM and my wife are in regular contact electronically. I am not aware of any reason to believe that any physical contact has taken place. She said she didn't know if there was something emotional, but she felt that kind of communication was inappropriate and she didn't want that kind of contact happening.

OMW says that OM is under police investigation in an unrelated investigation, and that is why the devices are in police custody. She was not prepared to share information about that. I don't understand that part and I found it murky.

In her initial email, my wife reports OM saying that OMW is convinced OM & my wife are having an affair. My wife is concerned that OMW is delusional and could possibly do us harm, either financially or by hacking us, and that OMW may post everywhere about what a horrible person my wife is.

I have no prior experience with OMW. I have decades of prior experience with my wife. I admire and respect my wife and think highly of her honesty and integrity and have always seen her to be honest in her dealings with others. I do not want to see my wife hurt or harmed. I love her and care about her. I want to support my wife. I worry that I am going about it all wrong.

You asked why I didn't ask more questions. I don't know. I suspect I'm not thinking clearly. I may have poor judgement as well. I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
I have no prior experience with OMW. I have decades of prior experience with my wife.


IF your wife is having an affair, you have NO experience with her because she will be a different person. WE have experience with cheaters. We know them. This is why it is so critical that you do some super snooping and get the facts.

Do you know why your wife would continue pursuing a married man if she knows his wife does not approve? That is very aggressive, predatory behavior that I find hard to comprehend.

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My wife is concerned that OMW is delusional and could possibly do us harm,

OK. Then why is she pursuing this "delusional" woman's [who could do you harm!] husband? That makes no sense. crazy

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I admire and respect my wife and think highly of her honesty and integrity and have always seen her to be honest in her dealings with others. I do not want to see my wife hurt or harmed. I love her and care about her. I want to support my wife. I worry that I am going about it all wrong.

If you want to be supportive, start snooping and find out why she is pursuing a married man, especially when she knows his wife doesn't like it. Does the OM come to your home and visit your wife? Do they meet up elsewhere?

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OMW also reports that OM and my wife are in regular contact electronically. I am not aware of any reason to believe that any physical contact has taken place.

How could you possibly know there has been no physical contact if you are checked out and not looking?




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
I asked OMW about whether she has reasons to believe an affair is taking place. She said she discovered OM and my wife having a conversation that was described as "very private" and that OM was not willing to allow OMW to hear that conversation...

...You asked why I didn't ask more questions. I don't know. I suspect I'm not thinking clearly. I may have poor judgement as well. I'm confused.
It's not clear from this whether you've had another conversation with OMW in the last 24 hours since we probed you for these answers, or whether you've pieced together this information based on your recollection of the first and only conversation. Which is it?

How many times have you spoken to OMW?

Could you speak to her again and get a clear picture of what she thinks is going on, and what she plans to do about it? Obviously, she might not intend to do anything about it, and you can't make her. You'd simply be trying to get insight from her side.

Is she doing anything about her husband being "not willing" to allow her to hear that conversation? And what does "not willing" mean? Did he hide in a room and try and talk quietly, or did he go even further and refuse to let her in the room, and refuse to tell her afterwards what it was about? Could it have been to do with client confidentiality? Is he a lawyer or accountant?

If OM's devices are in police custody, what was he using to talk to your wife?

What is their marriage like? Again, she doesn't have to tell you, but she might. Does she think he is unfaithful and is she planning to do anything about it?

Originally Posted by FanPalm
That may have included some discussions of our divorce and financials, based on information my wife sent me.
This is unclear. Are you saying that your wife sent you information that showed she discussed your financials with OM? What was that information?


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Thank you for suggesting all those questions, SugarCane. Yes, I spoke with OMW again after you two suggested it. I have answers for all but one of those questions. I don't feel comfortable providing all of the specifics here on a public forum -- I'll share about myself, but I have limits sharing about other people. I realize this may make for a difficult interaction here, and I understand if you don't want to engage on those terms.

I'm struggling to figure out how to get some facts that will give me the best shot at rebuilding a happy marriage with my wife. I've already read a lot of threads here. We're not living together, which eliminates a lot of avenues. I'm not willing to break the law. Do you have any suggestions? I'm not willing to take OMW's word or trust her over my wife.

Since you're asking for a clearer picture, let me try to re-summarize, based on the additional information I've gathered and the questions you're asking:

OMW's perspective, as I understand it: She thinks OM and my wife have been in regular communication for months via emails/texts/messages. She reports that she recently discovered OM and my wife on the phone and OM wouldn't continue the conversation until OMW left the room, and OM called it "very private". She thinks they discussed financials, divorce, and kids. She thinks they remain in contact via chat on their computers. She wants it to stop. She tells me she texted my wife to ask her to stop communicating with OM, and the communications haven't stopped. She's doesn't know whether it's anything more than that and is not willing to say that she thinks there is an ongoing affair, but she wants the communication to stop. She doesn't think there has been physical contact, because OM hasn't left the house for any duration (and they live hundreds of miles away). I don't understand the "police custody" part of the story, despite asking OMW multiple questions about that. I've gotten some partial information about her intentions and formed some impression of her perspective on what their marriage is like, but I don't feel comfortable sharing details of that. I appreciate that may be frustrating and make it harder to provide advice.

My wife's perspective, as I understand it: OM is an old friend. My wife hadn't been in touch with OM for years before the call that OMW discovered. OMW is delusional and not to be trusted. My wife is letting me know that OMW is threatening to post that she is a horrible person, and that there's a possibility that OMW could think of some way to do us some harm, either financially or by trying to hack our accounts. My wife shared a transcript of some messages between OM and OMW with me. My wife thinks I am acting very suspiciously for not answering whether I've been in contact with OMW and called it a major violation of her trust in me.

OM is not a lawyer or accountant and I can't think of any way that client confidentiality would be involved, but it's a good thought. OM and my wife stayed friends after their relationship ended and have stayed in occasional contact through their lives. It would not be out of the usual for them to have a periodic call or email. My wife hasn't said anything about OMW texting her asking her to cease communications. I have not asked my wife questions about the situation. In retrospect I wish I had asked her what she would like us to do about the situation and what she's thinking of doing and how I can support her. I still could. I might be handling this poorly. I suspect my declining to state whether I've been in contact with OMW has made her even less interested in engaging with me than she already was, and there's the potential for me to make things a lot worse.

I realize it's very reasonable for you to ask for as many specifics as possible. In places where I'm not comfortable with that, might you be willing to teach me anything about what inferences you're looking to draw from them and how it might affect my actions?

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. OMW is delusional and not to be trusted. My wife is letting me know that OMW is threatening to post that she is a horrible person, and that there's a possibility that OMW could think of some way to do us some harm,

Your wife is just asking for trouble by pursuing another woman's husband. That is terrible thing to interfere in a marriage. if your wife doesn't want to be exposed, obviously she should stop doing things she doesn't want exposed. Your wife is not to be trusted if she is pursuing a married man. That is very inappropriate behavior for a grown woman. What is your wife's excuse for this disgraceful behavior?

The reason we are so intent on getting the facts here is because it is very likely that your wife kicked you out because of an affair. It is very, very rare that a couple breaks up without an affair being the cause. She is certainly having a very inappropriate relationship with this married man and clearly has no respect for his marriage.

She doubles down by saying nasty things about the wife rather than doing the decent thing and leaving this married man's marriage alone. This man's wife has every right to be very upset about your wife's interference in her marriage and seems to be bracing you for a grand exposure to run off your wife. Exposure is a good thing, not a bad thing. If some woman were pursuing my husband like this, I would certainly run her off.

As far as your marriage goes, if she is having an affair it will completely prevent your marriage from recovering. Everything you do will be a waste of time if her lovebank is open to this married man. If she is having an affair, her lovebank is closed to you. If she is having an affair we would be use that intel to guide you in killing off the affair. Once the affair is killed, you would have a chance to win her back.

But please stop calling the OMW "delusional." What your wife is doing to her is far worse than being "delusional." Your wife is playing with fire.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
She doesn't think there has been physical contact, because OM hasn't left the house for any duration (and they live hundreds of miles away).

Has your wife left town to go there?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate you explaining your reasoning and talking through this. That helps.

I support getting the facts, and would welcome your thoughts about how to approach that.

You ask what my wife's excuse is. I have not asked my wife about this. Are you recommending that I ask her about this? What kind of conversation would you recommend?

I apologize if I'm being pedantic here, but I want to be clear that I don't know for a fact whether my wife is pursuing this man or not: that is based on OMW's description of the situation, which is not something I know how to verify right now. If things are as OMW describes I can entirely understand OMW's reaction, and I agree with you about that being a good thing; I share your perspective about exposure. Right now this appears to be a he-said-she-said situation, so I wish I had independently verifiable facts. That's what I'm working on now, and am struggling with.

There might be a misunderstanding on one point: I am not calling OMW delusional. It is my wife who called her delusional. I'm describing my wife's words.

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate you explaining your reasoning and talking through this. That helps.

I support getting the facts, and would welcome your thoughts about how to approach that.

You ask what my wife's excuse is. I have not asked my wife about this. Are you recommending that I ask her about this? What kind of conversation would you recommend?

I would be curious to know why she has not left this man alone if she knows his wife doesn't like it. Don't you find that very puzzling?

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I apologize if I'm being pedantic here, but I want to be clear that I don't know for a fact whether my wife is pursuing this man or not: that is based on OMW's description of the situation, which is not something I know how to verify right now.

Your wife is pursuing this man if they are still in touch and she has been asked by his wife to leave him alone. That is very aggressive behavior on your wife's part. She knows this man's wife is upset about it.

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If things are as OMW describes I can entirely understand OMW's reaction, and I agree with you about that being a good thing; I share your perspective about exposure. Right now this appears to be a he-said-she-said situation, so I wish I had independently verifiable facts. That's what I'm working on now, and am struggling with.

Can you think of any way to get some intel? Has your wife traveled there? Do you have any access to her bank records, email, etc?


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There might be a misunderstanding on one point: I am not calling OMW delusional. It is my wife who called her delusional. I'm describing my wife's words.

Ok, but you stated this as fact, giving the impression you believed this. Thanks for clarifying.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Has your wife left town to go there?

Not that I'm aware of. Thanks for the idea of looking at bank records etc., that's a good idea. I'll see what I can dig up. I don't have access to her email.

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How do I draw the boundaries of what I do and don't tell my wife? Do you have any advice on how much information I should provide in response to questions she has, and principles for how to think about that?

My wife continues to ask whether I've spoken to OMW. I'd like to answer her. Is that a mistake?

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Dr Harley does not recommend radical honesty when it comes to snooping to detect an affair. Radical honesty would rather defeat the concept of snooping, wouldn't you agree?

Therefore, you need to find a form of words that tell her you are not going to give her details, but that do not sound silly ("I'm not going to tell you whether I've spoken to her"). How about "yes, I have spoken with her. She is very upset about the fact that you are having private conversations with her husband, as am I. What are you talking to him about? Why are you communicating with him when she has asked you to stop?"

This isn't rocket science. You actually don't have to tell your wife anything, but when she asks you about contact, this could be a useful way for you to ask her what the heck she thinks she's doing.


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Thank you for your help, for suggesting how to think about this, and modelling an example of what such a communication might look like.

I've done some investigation to try to figure out whether my wife has travelled to see OM, and with the limited access I've got, I didn't find any sign of that. It'd be possible to travel there without leaving a trail visible to me, so it's not definitive, but if she went there without trying to hide it I think I'd know. My relationship with my wife started with a long-distance relationship with a lot of phone and electronic communication, so lack of physical contact is not terribly reassuring to me about where this could lead. I think now my next step is to consider my options for what other sources of information I can get.

I had a short conversation with my wife I mentioned that I'd spoken to OMW and what information I have shared with her and I briefly expressed that I was unhappy about communication with OM and that I wish I knew what they were discussing and why she's talking to him, if she is indeed talking to him. She didn't respond to the latter part. She asked me more questions. I interpret them as containing complaints that she doesn't like that I'm not answering her questions about this topic, she doesn't understand how this is radically honest, that she'd like to know who else I have told about this and what they've told me, and that she didn't like that I told OMW about when I moved out and that she has asked me for a divorce. I didn't find the lack of a response reassuring. I didn't press or ask directly and in retrospect I'm doubting myself on that, but maybe that wouldn't change anything.

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I see that Dr Harley replied to you. Would you care to share his advice for those that can't read in that forum?


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Good idea. I asked for him to explain how the policy of radical honesty applies in this context. Let me share the part he wrote that concerns me or might be useful to others:

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Since you are separated and your wife isn't willing to do anything to reconcile with you, my policies don't apply. But even if you were together and she seemed willing to reconcile, the point of snooping is to gather evidence that would "convince a jury" that your wife is having an affair. If you have that evidence, you can then decide to divorce or expose it in the hope that the light of day will cause it to break up. [...] my best advice is to see an attorney to understand your options.

In other news, my wife let me know that she would end all contact with OM.

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Thanks Fanpalm. We know what his position is on Radical honesty when it applies to an affair or abuse: it does not apply. But we told you that. Obviously, snooping would not be effective if you were honest about it. Honesty makes no sense in that situation.

I would strongly suggest you reach out to the OMW to tell her what your wife told you about ending contact. Ask her to keep you updated on any new developments.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I thought I'd update folks on my progress on the plan I outlined:

1. I've been practicing with the bio-feedback meter for 30 minutes/day. I think I've been making some progress in my ability to relax in the absence of any triggers. I'm finding it challenging to come up with reliable ways to trigger my anger response, so I haven't figured out a good way to practice relaxing while triggered. I might have to find a new brand of meter, as my current one seems a bit flaky.
2. I've been writing daily to my wife. I don't think I'm doing a good job at conveying affection. I don't know how I'm doing at admiration. I think I'm practicing honesty and openness.
3. I think I've made progress on radical honesty.
4. I continue to abstain from porn and masturbation and attend addiction recovery group.
5. Lovebusters: my wife is upset about me contacting OMW and upset that I shared with OMW the date when I moved out and that my wife has requested a divorce, and my wife is upset that I didn't tell my wife this promptly. My wife thinks that was an instance of dishonesty and independent behavior and considers it a major betrayal of trust and of her boundaries. I regret not telling her immediately that I had disclosed to OMW about when I moved out, particularly given circumstances that made it particularly relevant to her.
6. I've made little further progress in snooping.
7. Done... but I'm considering taking on a bit of extra work to make some extra money for safety in case my wife loses her job, which is potentially at odds with this.
8. Not done.

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Originally Posted by FanPalm
I thought I'd update folks on my progress on the plan I outlined:


5. Lovebusters: my wife is upset about me contacting OMW and upset that I shared with OMW the date when I moved out and that my wife has requested a divorce, and my wife is upset that I didn't tell my wife this promptly. My wife thinks that was an instance of dishonesty and independent behavior and considers it a major betrayal of trust and of her boundaries. I regret not telling her immediately that I had disclosed to OMW about when I moved out, particularly given circumstances that made it particularly relevant to her.
6. I've made little further progress in snooping.
.

Ok, that is not a lovebuster. You need to explain to her that you have a right to know what the OMW knows [and vice versa] and won't be sharing that information in the future. Like we have told you over and over again, RH does not apply to affairs or abuse. And it is silly to call it "independent behavior." She is manipulating you. Don't be so gullible. Being gullible and allowing your wife to misuse the concepts of MB will not save your marriage.

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6. I've made little further progress in snooping.

Because your wife has scared you off? Let me guess, you view this as some lovebuster?




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ok, that is not a lovebuster. You need to explain to her that you have a right to know what the OMW knows [and vice versa] and won't be sharing that information in the future. Like we have told you over and over again, RH does not apply to affairs or abuse. And it is silly to call it "independent behavior." She is manipulating you. Don't be so gullible. Being gullible and allowing your wife to misuse the concepts of MB will not save your marriage.

That was my reaction as well, but I wanted to include it in my report in case I'm missing something. I've already let her know that I don't believe talking to OMW violates any of the MB concepts. Thank you for explaining that it was not a problem to reveal when I moved out to OMW and that I shouldn't feel under an obligation to tell my wife that -- that wasn't obvious to me.

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Because your wife has scared you off? Let me guess, you view this as some lovebuster?

No, I don't view it as a lovebuster. It's primarily because my ability to do much is limited while living separately.

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