I'll try to keep this short. I live with my boyfriend of one year. We are saving for a house and wedding in the future. I don't worry about him marrying me or any of that. He is in love and very comitted to me. I worry though about honesty because he is so use to total freedom and not use to having to be accountable to anyone but himself.<P>We are just so different. I am more open about things than he is...more willing to not withold parts of myself. Recently he made plans to see an ex behind my back. He swears it is innocent and when I found out he agreed not to go I was so upset. The planned meeting upset me but more than that the fact that on the day he was to meet her he told me that he had a business lunch meeting. He ways it was the truth as she is also an attorney. My opinion is that is a stretch.<BR>He has quite a history. There were no rules in his house growing up and he didn't learn accountability until his late 20's and then the hard way. To say there were a lot of women is an understatement. He says it has no bearing as it was all before me. To me it matters because I want to know, as fully as I can, who he is and how he thinks, before I marry him. He has lied to women in the past, but says he has never given me a reason not to trust him. For me his very lifestyle before me is reason to worry. My history doesn't help matters either.<P>In terms of emotional maturity even he would say I am light years ahead of him and look at things much differently. I am very analytical and he calls this "judgemental" yet I never seek to condem just to have full knowledge and to try and understand things. For instance his dad (when 52) was dating a 19 year old. I wanted to know what he thinks of this. He says it's irrelevent and none of my business. I don't want to condemn his dad but I do want to know what he thinks of these kinds of situations. I feel like maybe it will give me a clue if he thinks it's "ok" and if so am I at risk of being left at 50 something for someone younger than my kids?<P>Am I making sense? He says I am being judgemental and unreasonable. I am just trying to feel safe in this relationship and guage at what level I can truly trust this man with my heart.<P>Thanks for any advice or suggestions :-)<BR>

I believe you are entitled to honesty. Have you read the Basic Concepts info on this site? Here is the link to the section on Honesty... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3325_hon.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3325_hon.html</A> <P>Good luck.

You are right to question your plans for a life long realtionship with this man. <P>The fact that you and your bf are different (you/analytical and he more emotion driven maybe?) is not a problem. The fact that you appear to have a different value system does pose a potentially serious problem.<P>My W and I are very different. She is spontaneous, gregarious and more emotional. I'm logical, introverted and as my bride tells me "there is no mercy in me" :-). We, though very different people, share a common value system and share a common upbringing.<P>I would guess that the real reason your bf is trying to defer your question about his father is because he knows you won't like his answer. It is possible to make a judgement with out being judgemental. A judgement is very personal. What is right in your eyes. You shouldn't let him side step this with a game of sematics. You want and have a need to understand his views. After all he expects you to commit to a life with him.<P>I have two teenage kids. My son has a girl friend. She is a very nice person and actually shares our value system and faith. The main concern is that she comes from a home with vastly different views. <P>I also have a teenage daughter. (she's my baby) I always look at the family of the boys that are interested in her far more then I look at the boy himself. Most teenage boys don't meet my standards for my daughter anyway. I don't even want my daughter dating a boy who's father has had an affair! Extreme? Maybe, but hey we're talking about my little girl here.<P>The point of all this is that values matter. You are right on target to get all the information you need to make a rational decision about marrying this man. His past is relevant. His dismisal of his past rasies a red flag to me. <P>A good test might be to buy a couple of Dr. Harley's books or print off stuff from this web site and go over it with your bf. If he won't or tries to be evasive about HIS values you might want to reconsider your plans. Take nothing for granted. You can read here the heart breaking stories of folks who now wished they had asked a few more question.<P>It is known on these boards that I'm no advocate of living together before marriage but that is not what motivates my next comment.<P>You may want to consider moving out for a period of time while you sort all this out. The whole physical/closeness of your living arrangments might hinder you from being as objective as you need to be about this very important decision.<P>

Mudder...thanks for the reply.<P>In discussing the issues we face I didn't touch on the many ways this man is wonderful...thoughtful and kind. He is perhaps the most tender hearted person I have ever known.<P>I think he has a lot of shame attached to those years and an block against feeling any of that...so a block against talking about it in real terms. Like most young adults his bed hopping was really a search for love...in his case for mom. She left his life when he was 9 after years of taking out her hatred of men on him in verbal and physical abuse. In a therapy session (he and we both go) he cried for a full hour as he talked about the fact that she had never hugged him. Yet she did do other nice things for him and she tried. He hasn't had a relationship with her in years because of his anger. I think he is moving toward accepting her as his mother as she is...not needing her to be perfect to make it ok to love her. That struggle of course reflects upon our relationship. My onw family is much worse than his and he says I was his inspiration because I am so forgiving. He is gentle and thoughtful and no matter how much we argue he will always need to make sure I feel ok. Even on this topic...he just doesn't like to talk about it because (my observation) it hurts him too much. I also think he is afraid I will not love him anymore. Some of it is pretty bad from things he has said.<P>You and my mother on us living together. It is a matter of necessity. We waited and I said no the first couple of times he asked me too. I wanted us to be at a point first where this was not a test drive...but an understood life time decision...no moving out...no divorce. We live in San Francisco...my one bedroom before this move was over 20K a year in rent. We are using that money to save to buy a home and for a wedding as well as paying off his law school debt. If we had not done this it would have been over 8 years before the debt was paid off and about that long until he would get married. He has very old fasioned notions about his having to be able to support the both of us, whether I work or not (which I certainly will.) As far as perspective I can always go to the time share in Tahoe and telecommute and work things out there. I actually get plenty of time away from him....I am at home alone now, today. If I need to meditate, go running, walk fo hours, or simply veg. in the other room he is very supportive of me having that time.<P>Anyway...I realized that I may have painted our relationship as bad all over and that is not the case at all. As far as reconsidering my committment to him? Not an option. As I said before when we moved in together it was with the understanding that "this is it." We have the same views on divorce..it is not an option. We are seeing a counselor and it seems to be helping.<P>Thanks for the observations.<BR>I know you are right about the honesty and he agrees...but how he feels about telling me HIS history is quite different. With that we have to deal with the deeper issues for him surrounding independence, love, and shame about some of it. My real concern is not what is right (we know that) but with all of these barriers...how do we get there?<P><BR>

M&M,<P>Glad to hear that there is much better foundation to your relationship then I first thought from your first post.<P>In your reply you are mostly talking about him divulging his past. In my view that can happen over time or not at all.<P>In your first post I thought you raised issues of deception and what sounded to me like different values. What happened to those issues or did I miss the point of your first post? I've been known to do that. :-) <P>Also I didn't mean to be "on" you about living together. I thought you were evaluating or re-evaluating your relationship and thought living apart might be a better environment for objectivity. No judgement was intended, therefor no explanation is needed. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

It would be very helpful if both of you read all of the information found out at this site.<P>In general, I think men tend to have a more difficult time with feelings of accountability. This grows over time and with the knowledge that many things are not necessarily given up but it's more of a learned consideration for each other. <P>My H and I lived together before marriage. I believe it actually hindered our progress--no matter how committed-feeling you are, there's still a part of you that knows you're not married. That "still single" part of you, when irritated, can look back at the light shining under the exit door...just in case. Makes it more difficult to actually want to buckle down and work THROUGH things, when escape is still an option. I read some rather appropriate phrasing here for a word picture. Living together is like renting-to-own. If it doesn't suit you easily, you can turn it back in!<P>I'm really not meaning to sound negative, just that if I personally could do it over again, I'd sure try to do it differently.<P>I'd be concerned that your fiance has a history of lying to women. The reality is--he certainly could also lie to you. I believe your concerns about his Ex and the supposed business luncheon are valid. It's important to know and understand as much as possible about the person with whom you're wanting to commit the rest of your life. If he did indeed lie, why? <P>In order for either of you to remain honest with each other, some guidelines like the ones found here will need to be implemented. You sound like me...very curious and overly-analytical. Well, that's fine, as long as you're not putting him on the defensive. Once that happens, he'll shut down and actually be afraid to tell you his true feelings. It's an interesting dance sometimes, these relationships. The wrong turn, and all of a sudden stretches of the truth start so it's more like what we think the other person WANTS to hear, not necessarily what really is going on. <P>Trust is so important, for both. And I mean trust as in the safekeeping of feelings, and that each other's feelings are equally important. In a way, men confiding their feelings is instinctually wrong because it may be viewed as weakness. With this situation at hand, your fiance could also have been lying to you to protect your feelings since he knew it would be upsetting to you. In that case, you'll have to help him trust that honesty IS the best policy, even if it stirs up trouble. He'll need to learn that trouble can be settled much quicker with honesty...by how you handle it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think men tend to have a more difficult time with feelings of accountability. This grows over time and with the knowledge that many things are not necessarily given up but it's more of a learned consideration for each other. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Laura has made an excellent point. <P>Consideration for our spouse in general goes hand in hand with maturity. I think women usually have a head start with this important quality.<P><P>------------------<BR>Scott

My W and I went through somewhat of a similar situation, particularly with respect to the "responsible lifestyle" issue.<P>We found that to the extent we limited our discussion to what we call "anthropology" the better. In other words, I, usually, would often pepper the converstaion with statements like, "I'm just trying to understand you better/more deeply." We would act like an anthropologist would when investigating a new culture...he wouldn't know enough about it (yet) to make moral judgements but would want to investigate with an open, curious mind.<P>Our goal was to allow an open loving converstaion where neither of us felt attacked or defensive. Repeating this goal often during the converstaions we've had really helped. It really does reinforce trust between us (or can help identify situations where there isn't a basis for trust). If I'm stuck in my own stuff---which tends to be hyper-responsibility---when talking with my W, I'm not listening dispassionately, and most things she'd say would trigger a fear response because I wouldn't be hearing her, just people from my past who betrayed me or whatever. Then I just get that kind of reinforcement which tends to propagate itself.<P>BELIEVE ME, I haven't liked everything I've heard over the years, and I have made my own opinions (judgements?) over time. But like I read in an earlier reply, almost all of these I have been able to attribute to our uniqueness and not some major character flaw. It hasn't affected our trust in a long long time. My W and I are dissimilar in lots of ways but we see this as kind of a cross-pollenization that makes us closer.<P>