How do I initiate boundaries and maintain a marriage..... <P>I guess, I really need prayers.<BR>TNT<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 2000).]

TNT - Your trial is so tough. I feel such deep hurt for you, what you are going through is so heart-wrenching. Please know I am praying for you and my heart really goes out to you dear sister. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do I initiate boundaries and maintain a marriage..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly what I need to know too...... Guess I better read the book huh.<P>Lord, I lift up TNT to you asking for a fresh annointing of the HOly Spirit. Help her dear Lord to get through this trial, with her eyes and heart securely focused on You. Lord, carry her through this battle, as she is becoming weary. Give her your wisdom in all decisions she makes. Lord, I pray you will be right next to her nonstop, comforting her. Thank You Father for your unending love and promise to us. You are almighty, and we worship You. IJN AMEN

thanks aw. I know you are having rough times now too.<BR>TNT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do I initiate boundaries and maintain a marriage..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>PR 27:6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.</B><P>All I can share is what I have learned, what I feel the Lord has given me insight into through this trial and I suspect that what I will say will sting you as it stung me.<P>All behavior has purpose. There is a reason why we do the things we do, why we allow the things we allow, etc. There is a reward of some kind or we wouldn't allow it. Both POPW and BIM begin with looking at self.<P>We have to look at what tentative rewards we get from our behavior. It may be sympathy from friends around us, who are in awe that we are so steadfast in our commitment, that we continue to have hope in a hopeless situation, that we appear to be so Spiritual, etc. <P>I am not quite sure at what point the spirit convicted me about this. I really do desire to become the Proverbs 31 lady, to have her organization, energy, faith, confidence, etc.<P>PR 31:12 She brings him good, not harm,<BR> all the days of her life.<P>This verse particularly got to me...how was I bringing good to my husband if I was telling everyone the bad points of my husband, the weaknesses he had, the bad way he was treating me, etc. How was I showing everyone how I honored my husband with my words. <P>I do believe that we have to have someone in our life that we can share with, for scripture is clear that we are to carry one another's burdens. But I guess I am also learning that the true friend will also be honest enough to redirect me about my behavior (i.e.-Jesus and the Samaritan woman-her comment that might get sympathy-"I don't have a husband", Jesus' as her friend who says, " you are right, not only do you not have a husband but you have had 5 and the man you are living with is not your husband) Stinging truth said in a loving way.<P>We cannot change our husbands or our nasty relatives, only ourselves. No matter how anyone else behaves, we are responsible and accountable to the Lord for our behavior and our responses. Our behavior reflects what we believe about the gospel and our faith, the truths we hold dear. So once again, the spirit convicts us in our hearts because we know the thoughts we have had, the words we have said, the bitterness and anger we have held onto, etc. As I said before, Pastor's comment about sin being in the response has really touched me in a mighty way.<P> HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.<P>"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,<P>HEB 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."<P>2TI 2:22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [23] Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. [24] And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. [25] Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, [26] and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.<P>There are bunches of scripture once I started opening my eyes to it as to how I need to respond to the ugliness thrown my way. My task is how can I honor the Lord and my husband in light of the situation before me? How can I change me, my thoughts, and actions so that others can see Christ in my life? If someone saw me today and listened to me talk, would they want to become a Christian? (ouch, that one got me too!)Or even more so, would they want me as a wife? LOL<P>And I don't know if I can explain this part right or not, but will try. Satan knows the Word better than we do and will twist scripture, so that though we desire to be following the Word, we may be going down the wrong track.<P>Phil 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.<P> PHP 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, [15] so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe [16] as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.<P>Both of these statements are truths, but taken out of context of who we are in Christ, can be manipulated into useless vessels for the Lord. I became that doormat, thinking I was being obedient to the Word. I dishonored the Lord with my behavior, not treating myself as a daughter worthy of love and respect. I dishonored my husband by not setting limits which would show him that I was deserving of better treatment. As I answered the questions and really studied that chapter in BIM about boundaries for self, and compared it to the truth of the Word, I realized how my behavior was setting up exactly what I was receiving. <P>The truth always brought me back to "Lord, Change me!" In the past few months, I have spent most of my time in the chapter of Boundaries for self, and Living with a person who doesn't respect your Boundaries, POPW chapter one and the word. I have redefined my goals into looking at how I can honor others by honoring myself. I have spent a lot of time confessing to the Lord and to my husband as the truths are made known to me. I have learned and am learning to dodge the hateful comments, first being silent to assess what was said with the truth and determining what my boundaries are in relatin to what was said. I no longer allow others to steal my joy. I see the Lord developing in me a compassion for the hurt that others must feel to say such hateful things to me.<P>If there are others of you who are desiring to develop these skills, let's form a support group in this area. My biggest difficulty was in how to respond in a loving and truthful way when garbage was hurled my way. I found I was both flabbergasted and tongue-tied. Pastor has given me some ways to respond to these attacks and I am finding the spirit is now making me more sensitive in this area and it is getting easier.<P>My email is eramhoff@home.com if you want to write and say...okay so and so said this, how could I have responded differently? And let us put our heads together to develop loving responses that will eventually, as we get stronger, become a part of us. <P>Father, you have given us each other as family to lift up and uphold each other, to encourage and to exhort one another that we might internalize your truths and be your light here on earth. You allow difficulties so that we might become stronger in dealing wth the adversities of this world, so that as we grow in You, that we can share the comfort you have given us with others and that we might develop those characteristics that you deem important, that we can be more like you. Help us to be moldable and pliable Lord in spite of how others act, that we can continue to be shaped into Your likeness. IJN, Amen.<P>Additional thought TNT and AW- You both have experienced physical abuse. AW, I know you documented your because of the court dates, etc. but TNT, has yours been documented? The court may have dealt you dirty in a previous time but it doesn't always have to be that way. Your safety is important for your little boy's sake. He needs you. And he needs you to show him how a man should treat a woman. HUGS!<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited July 19, 2000).]

Sue B,<P>You wrote such an in-depth response, I am going to have to print this off and re-read and re-read until I get it! thank you.<P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 2000).]

WOW SueB!!!! Your last response was tremendous! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I no longer allow others to steal my joy.</B> I see the Lord developing in me a compassion for the hurt that others must feel to say such hateful things to me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I GET IT! I have been letting David's drinking, lack of love/attention, etc. rob me of my Joy in the Lord. A friend told me recently I am loving the right way, it is David who is not RECEIVING it the way he should be. <P>I would love to participate in a support group in this area as I am beginning to understand what else I need to change about me. I will get the book this weekend. I saw it before at Family Christian Stores and there is one near me. What a fantastic idea Sueb!<P>

That is an excellent post, SueB. I feel so humbled around all you ladies who are remaining so steadfast in your love for God and desire to bring Him glory, in the midst of such great adversity.<P>I don't know your story, but I can see what beauty God is forming in you - refining you and yielding that which is more precious than gold - a character like His.<P>I like this verse:<P>For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver. <BR>You brought us into prison and laid burdens on our backs. <BR>You let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and water, but you <BR>brought us to a place of abundance. (from Psalm 66) <P>I especially like the part about "brought us to a place of abundance" - interestingly He also is the One who brought us into prison, laid burdens on our backs, let men ride over our heads - all for a purpose, to refine us and to bring us to that place of abundance.<P>May God comfort you and bless you in a special way this day.<P><p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited July 19, 2000).]

Thank you siftedlikewheat! That was a real blessing to me! I was back reading the chapter in BIM again today and once again was confronted on our need to set boundaries in the process of taking the next step in our spiritual growth, needing to not stagnate and let things stay as they are.<P>And yes, I do feel like I am in the refining fire. Those of you who do take the boundaries leap must know that hubby and others are going to do their darndest to get you to change back and so things often look dimmer than before. I just had to keep asking myself what my motivations were and make sure they were pure and lo and behold, hubby makes the appt with Pastor. That was such an encouragement! <P>We have very far to go and I will have to be on my guard to not expect too much or to fall into my own temptation traps, but I am so blessed by the Lord's faithfulness to our prayers!

Another thought about this boundary step, well, actually two.<P>Thought one-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Boundaries define us. They define <I>what is me</I> and <I>what is not me</I>. A boundary shows me where I end and someone else begins, leading me to a sense of ownership-(example is a piece of property with a fence delineating the boundaries of the property)Townsend & Cloud, Boundaries, p.29<P>The concept of boundaries comes from the very nature of God. God defines himself as a distinct, separate being, and he is responsible for himself. He defines and takes responsibility for his personality by telling us what he thinks, feels, plans, allows, will not allow, likes and dislikes. He also defines himself as separate from his creation and from us. He differentiates himself from others. He tells us what he is and is not. <BR>pp.32-33<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Within the trinity there are boundaries. While the Father, Son and Spirit are one, each are distinct persons and have responsibilities within that personhood in addition to a connection and love for each other. <P>T & C further identify that God also limits what he will allow in his "yard", by confronting sin and allowing consequences for behavior. He guards his house and will not allow evil things to go on there; he invites people in who will love him, he lets his love flow outward to them at the same time so that the "gates" of his boundaries open and close appropriately.<P>In the same light, God gave us his likeness when he made us in his image and gave us personal responsibility within limits-1) to rule and subdue the earth and 2)to be responsible stewards over the life he has given us.<P>The challenge then is to develop boundaries like God's. It is more than "Here is the line, Buster, don't you cross it!" I just wanted to make that clear. It is loving ourselves and others enough to set up property lines so that everyone is responsible for their own stuff and the unity is out of respect for each person's own uniqueness and responsibility for themselves. The }"carry(ing) of one another's burdens" does not mean (as I understand it) that we literally take over the responsibility of the burden, but that we stand along side of the individual with the burden for support and encouragement while they address the burden, speaking the truth in love, meaning if there is a sin issue, we love the individual but hate the sin and we do not minimize the sin itself. Kind of like, how can I support you while you deal with this issue?<P>Thought two-<BR>Pastor really challenged me to find another woman in the body to mentor me on what it meant to be a woman and a woman of God. A kind of mentor rather than someone to commiserate with me. I did that and we are studying the Proverbs 31 woman. Interestingly enough, one of the tidbits in the commentary that I am using says that traditionally this poem was recited by husbands and children at the Sabbath table on Friday night. (now wouldn't that be a trip?!)Christians have seen it as a paradigm for godly women with some viewing this woman as an idealized wife, in an ideal home, in an ideal society while others recognize that more is going on here than a description of the ideal wife due to nothing being said about the woman's personal relationship with her husband, her intellectual or emotional strengths, or her religious activities. In general it appears that the woman of ch. 31 is a symbol of wisdom. I must admit that I have been one who felt this was the perfect wife and someone I would like to emulate, something to strive for amd I am looking forward to going through this again with a different perspective.<P>Pastor talks about the need for the support of godly women close by as you begin this process to help keep you accountable. TNT, you have said that your one SIL has been that kind of support for you. I know from other posts that you email each other lots. Can she challenge you if there are areas that need rethinking or let go of to help you be accountable in your growth in this area?<P>AW- should we get started before David comes home from this trip to California so that you are more prepared to love him in a healthy way? We can take some of the scenarios that have played in the past and see how they could have been responded to differently, to get you thinking in this way so that when things do come up, you will have that gentle truth-seeking answer?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited July 20, 2000).]

Sue,<BR>An incredible insightful post that touched and convicted me. I know I have complained about my husband as way of hoping others would understand me, when it was me that needed to understand me and what was going on. He is convicting more about this and I need to stop relaying the details of our interactions. I am trying toi change this.<BR>Also the piece about wanting others to see us as being so steadfast or whatever it is. Convicted. I didn't realize it until 5 months ago. When I tell about what is going on even though I don't mean to make myself seem so strong to others etc.. that is the effect. I was getting my self worth in part for how strong others thought I was in this situation. I can't do that, my self worth is in the Lord and what He does for me is about His grace and goodness. He is Lord.<BR>What is it I want others to see about God through me? That is what I need to ask myself. I am getting the BIM book back off the shelf and rereading it. I now have the time. I remember when I read it it really touched on several areas in my life. I do need to draw better boundaries. What do I get from trying to continue this marriage while he is so involved with this other woman. Not to say I should walk away but God has been convicting me ever more so to seek Him and just pray for Jack. Let him go to God and I need to work on my relationship to God and that also intails defining better boundaries. <BR>Last night my h talked about the Washington DC office said something about him moving there. He went on to talk about us all moving there. I said are you saying you are taking us with you? He said well you could live in the townhouse (we own) and I could get a place. I said if we are not moving together why would I go? He said so he could be near the kids. <BR>Although I agree about being near him for the kids I can't move someplace to follow him and his lover so he can be near the kids if I don't feel this is in my best interest.<BR>I also see the double standard here. He can't come back to a perfectly salvage marriage for the kids, but I should pick up an move for the kids. In the past I would agree and go no matter what it felt like for me. I don't want to rob the kids of time with their fther, but at the same time i can;t keep bending to his whims. He left, not me, and I haven't allowed too many consequences. This is part of what God is showing me. I can not spiteful or nasty but I don't think about myself very often and bend to accomodate others at the detriment of my mental health sometimes. It is a balance to put others first but also protect myself. I trust God that He will sort this all out, but I need to seek Him and his guidance and not the guidance of others. That is another thing He has been dealing with me about lately., Seek His guidance. Don't talk to others first, talk to Him.<BR>I am going to print out this thread also. There is a lot of good stuff to ponder in session with God.

HW- wow! We are all just learning like crazy. You know we all were going through some pretty dark times and felt pretty discouraged a couple of weeks ago and I wonder if we needed to go through that in order to be pliable to what the Lord wanted us to learn now.<P>This new revelation from your husband has got to be interesting to say the least! (But if you do move, you can come visit me-smile)I guess I am wondering if you lovingly set that boundary, if he will then consider the consequences of the choice he is making. Since God has a plan for each of us, I can't help but get excited and wonder what he has next for you. I find all these things are so timely! The need to set boundaries, put things back in perspective, take a look at our own rewards for our behaviors or for allowing the yuch to continue, the insight for us to set boundaries on our own selves... it is just incredible to me. To see how POPW, MIB, THE WORD and Harley's principals all interweave together. Pretty dynamic stuff!<P>Thanks for your feedback.

SueB, YES YES YES to <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>AW- should we get started before David comes home from this trip to California so that you are more prepared to love him in a healthy way? We can take some of the scenarios that have played in the past and see how they could have been responded to differently, to get you thinking in this way so that when things do come up, you will have that gentle truth-seeking answer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh thank you so much for helping me with this. I don't know when he will be coming back, but he mentioned it being at least 2 weeks yet. That would give me time to learn some of th Boundaries concepts before he is here. Also, I recently went through a study called The Role of the Virtuous Woman, so I am getting more knowledge of Proverbs 31 and what God expects of me as a Christian wife. Praise God! <P>Thank you so much for all you are doing SueB. FYI - I have a counseling session with Dr. Harley today at 1:00 PM; please pray if you feel led.<BR>

Thanks Sue also for the feedback. I would love to start a discussion more about boundaries. <BR>AW, I am so glad to hear about your session with Harley. Have you talked with him before. I would love to know what you think of the whole process and what he advises or counsels you. <P>We sure are learning a lot these days, and yes, sue I agree. In fact I had been praying for the Lord, to break down the strongholds in my life, I was just thrown off a bit when he did. Silly me!<BR>Thanks everyone.

I'm takin'all this in! Keep talking!<P>This is great stuff, Sue B.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would love to start a discussion<BR>more about boundaries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So let's do that. <P>TNT, glad to hear from you. Throw in a thought or a question. If you can't get the book or can't afford it right now, let me know at my email address and I will buy it for you. I am not rich but I do feel led by the Lord to provide the resource if possible and right now, I do have a little extra.<P>So where shall we start HW? The chapter I spend most time with is "Setting Boundaries with Yourself: Becoming more loveable"

Sue,<BR>that sounds like a great chapter to me. I am getting the book off the shelf tonight and will reread it between tonight and tomorrow and see what we come up with. <BR>will add my comments in the morning

One of the things I thought of was that maybe we could write out scenarios of what happens at our houses that gets us stuck. But since our goal is to not trash husbands but to honestly seek ways to change ourselves so that we can respond differently and not hook into the negative dysfunctional stuff, if anyone was uncomfortable with writing out their episode, I thought maybe if you all just emailed HW or me, then we could write it up as SCENARIO #1, etc. and then give a synopsis of the event with no names, just "husband, wife, children relatives", etc. and keep everyone anonymous. So it might look like this:<P><B>Scenario #1</B>-<BR><B>Event</B>- description of what happened.<BR><B>Response</B>-way we responded-how we got hooked, the feelings we felt, the thoughts we thought, the action we took, etc.<BR><B>Changed Response</B>-<BR>the input based on the new us, the ideas we all would have on how to do differently based on what we are now learning about boundaries, what God's word says, what His character shows us that we would like to emulate, etc.<P>For example: <P><B>Mock Scenario</B><BR>The first story in this chapter talks about a family where the husband always came home late for dinner. <P><B>Mock Response</B><BR>The wife told him how this felt to her, how unfair it was to make the kids wait for him for dinner, etc. No matter what she said to him, even though he might get home on time for a couple of days, he never consistently could maintain this behavior. She was feeling let down, that he didn't care about her or the children. She felt angry and bitter, unappreciated for trying to have a nice dinner on the table, to initate quality dinner time, etc.<P><B>Mock Changed Response</B><BR>In taking a look at her own behavior, she found these sins in her life-<BR>Anger, bitterness, nagging, unkindness, rudeness...she found that her action of continuing to hold dinner for her husband enabled him to continue his late behavior, which was not being a helper in encouraging her husband to be more responsible to her and the family. She wasn't honoring her children and nuturing them in this process or showing them a godly mother, or managing the household so that the environment was the sanctuary as POWP describes.<P><B>Input</B><BR>Ideas this group would have to be able to confront our own sin, scripture, etc. Ways we might be able to do things differently, respond differently, think differently, etc. Ways to help us be more alert to how we enable the treatment we have been receiving.<P><B>Action</B><BR>Plan we each would then devise, to purposely focus on so that we learn new thought processes, new ways of responding to help us break out of the chain. Remember, we cannot change anyone else, only ourselves and scripture is clear that we have to take the log out of our own eye first before we can take the splinter out of someone else's eye.<P>In this scenario, the woman purposed to rein in her impulse to attack her husband for his lateness, a boundary on her anger. She purposed to be kind to her husband no matter what time he came in. (Love is kind) She apologized to her husband for her crummy griping attitude about dinner and recognized that when he knew that was coming at him as he walked in the door, he probably didn't even want to come home. She told him that she was going to try and be less angry with him and more caring and approachable and would need his help in this area, that she planned to change not only her attitude but her actions as well. She told him she loved him and that she and the children wanted him to be there with them at dinnertime, but that if he couldn't get there on time, they would eat and she would put his dinner in the fridge to reheat himself when he got home. Hubby balked at this saying after a 10 hour work day, he wanted to come home to a prepared dinner, etc...wife affirmed this desire of his and told him she wanted that for him as well, but that it wouldn't happen until the husband could rearrange things so that he got home on time for dinner.<P>Reaction stuff-in this case, hubby did reheat his food for a while, the wife maintained that pleasant, caring attitude and husband did shift his behavior to get home at dinner time. While this example might seem over simplified for some of the events happening in our lives, we need to take one small step to begin the process of change in our lives and our attitudes. We cannot fix everything over night. We certainly didn't develop our attitudes, thoughts and behaviors in one day. We are not excusing anyone's behavior. The husband was wrong to treat his family this way. We are looking at ways to respond that is more consistent with how God's character is.<P>If you think this looks like work, you are correct. We came to this website because we were looking for answers for the problems in our marriages. I personally have struggled with some of the concepts and had a hard time imagining how to put some of them into place. This piece seems to fit for me to further explain the policy of honesty, etc. The codependency theory also seemed to miss something and I think it has to do with boundaries. Seeing how God has boundaries encourages me and helps me see more about how I am responsible for how I respond to my husband.<P>What do you guys think?

SueB, I think I need the book too.<P>But you keep on talking, this is really really good stuff!<BR>TNT<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited August 08, 2000).]

Scenario: This happened in our house, and I had the same "orignal behaviors." So, I told husband that if he called me when he was on his way home, (47 minute drive - I can even set the timer!) I would have dinner ready when he got here. This has made a HUGE difference, and he always comes home from work on time now. I no longer have to ruin dinner, and he no longer has to call. He also took the step to put an automatic timer on his rolodex to go off at 5:00 (kinda like Flintstone quitting time!) and he leaves when the timer goes off. His boss has even learned that he leaves at 5:00 now. He is happier about this, and has reduced the stress in his life. God had to show me that by complaining and being angry - wasn't getting anywhere, what I needed to do was let God lead in this area - and be flexible for my husband. If my husband stumbles and starts coming home late again, I do not complain, but after a couple of ruined dinners then I start the process over again.... I wait until he calls, if he doesn't call I don't start dinner - and then he has an unorganized evening. I usually have a little bit of left overs so I can reheat those up for our son if son is starving and can't wait. <P>Now H has email and is getting internet friendly, and will email me with his plans for evening - like "let's go do this and get chinesse food... I'll be home at....." And - my point, is that these little changes in our behavior and giving it to God, and stopping the complaining - "really does work!" <P>Keep talking.... this is Absolutely wonderful stuff!~<BR>TNT

Okay, I will keep talking but I just need to know what direction to take. Thanks for sharing your example. I was more concerned in that you had deleted all your posts, which I suspect was to honor your husband, but also I wasn't sure what way to go with it. That is why I wondered about anonymity for those who are uncomfortable with writing out the scenario and offered my email as an option. ( I volunteered you too HW and I now realize that was wrong without asking you first. I am sorry for that was an example of a boundary crossing. My motive was pure in that I didn't want anyone to think I was little Miss Know-it-All 'cause I don't, and I sure didn't want to alienate anyone when we are all here trying to learn. Please forgive me.) I am finding it is the simple little examples that seem to build me up to get stronger for the bigger ones that come my way.<P>I would like us to learn how to heap coals on the heads of those who mistreat us, not as something vindictive but as a way of realigning ourselves with the mindset of Christ.