Hey T,<p>That sounds really great!!! But.... When someone is in the fog it might not go over to well. I wish my former WS was here right now (shopping) because she could answer this question much better. I remember when she was still in the fog and I would give her roses and gifts only to find out later that that was not what she needed. Much later when the fog lifted I asked her what she did need at the time and guess what she said? She didn't know.
So you see, it might work well for you.... then again it might not. Its hard to say. The card sounds good, but mabey a single red rose might go over better, she might not feel over wellmed as much or the guilt as much. I'm sure she feels rotton for what she has done to you and the marriage. She cannot and will not accept your forgiveness in all this until she can forgive herself and that my friend is what will be the hardest thing for her to do.
The most important thing is to hear what she is saying, listen closely. You can still say all that you need to say but when she responds to what you say, let her talk and listen. Repeat what she says in a question. "So you are saying this, that, and the other?? I see what you are saying!!"....... In doing this you are validating her and she will respond in a posative way.
Keep studying and learning this is the best thing you can do right now because she will see this new light in you that will make you attractive. Oh and by the way it won't hurt to get a hair cut and be looking real good too... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck, SH

All, very good suggestions, you are right, maybe a single red rose IS better. Hair cut, maybe, but I think she rather like to see me without a hat on for a change(addicted to the hat).<p>I saw that card, and thought about us and how it used to be, it pretty much says what I feel now.<p>The listening and somewhat repeating thing will be hard to remember, but I think I'm ready.<p>anything I should be trying to accomplish at this "stage" other than showing the changes to her, and telling/showing home is "safe"? or are those big enough goals for now?<p>God bless.<p>[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Sometimes our best intentions get twisted in that fog and we come up with mud on our faces. Does that mean we stop? No just need to get better direction so that we don't trip in that A hole (hm....) again.<p>This means that a dozen roses in normal situations would be greatly appreciated but the WS could interpret that to mean
1. you really want them to feel guilty.
2. are you trying to make the OM look bad
3. why do you keep doing this to me
4. I don't like roses
5. you remind me of my mother
6. I just want to be friends
7. you are confusing me.......<p>.....the list goes on. Now does any of those 7 items make sense? Nope. Not suppose to so don't even try. You'll just get a headache. <p>Hey I am getting good at this illogic fogese logic stuff. Just act confused and twisted and wa la...... you can speak fogese. Understanding it takes a different degree of stupidity.... <p>So do something little, when she complains (like above), just say well I thought of doing more but held back. Don't explain why, just let them think about it. <p>JMHO,
L.

hold on, now I think I'm falling in the "forese" hole. To make "sense" of the "fog" and W, I hve to be confused and bass-ackwards? It all makes perfect sense now!!! To handle a "normal" situation requires logic, while handling an A or "fog" situation requires Illogic...<p>Now It makes sense or in this case doesn't. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Kind of brings a song to mind, Supertramp"the Illogical Song" lol

T,<p>Just a note on the Fogese.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>To handle a "normal" situation requires logic, while handling an A or "fog" situation requires Illogic...</strong><hr></blockquote>Look through my thread and you'll find this: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think I learned a little fogese. We talked about living arangements. She said she wasn't ready to move back in. I said "Ok, don't move back in, just start spending the night". She's thinking about this.<hr></blockquote>I swear to you I had this conversattion. I thought you could appreciate it.<p>RedHat tells us to keep them confused. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

Thats really F@#$&d up, but hey, If it works,then who's to argue with it, right?<p>I talked to an old friend of mine tonight, we caught up on our lives,(we haven't had contact in about a year now) she said she wishes me good luck on saturday, and If I need someone to talk to, she be there to talk to.<p>(I know what you all are thinking, we have no emotional, or sexual feeling towards one another, so she is "safe" to talk to, I'm not that vulnerable, and besides, I love my W too much to betray her like she has betrayed me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>anyways, it's late, time to get some sleep.<p>God bless...

Torizo <p>"...and If I need someone to talk to, she be there to talk to.<p>(I know what you all are thinking, we have no emotional, or sexual feeling towards one another, so she is "safe" to talk to, I'm not that vulnerable, and besides, I love my W too much to betray her like she has betrayed me )"<p>Anguished smile here on my part...<p>I heard a great quote once:
The devil doesn't attack us where we are weak.
He attacks us where we think we are strongest.<p>I believed the same as you, until it happened to me.<p>This is direct from the MB seminar:
"My position on the kind of behavior you are talking about is that we are all vulnerable, and so we cannot put ourselves into the situations that your wife put herself in. She is especially vulnerable because she thinks that her will power can get the job done. I would encourage her to consider herself more vulnerable than she thinks she is so that she never finds herself in compromising situations again."<p>In the above, 'she' could be you?<p>JMO-ICBW (dennis miller's sign-off)<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Vanilla'd ]</p>

ok, but I know myself, I have been put in far worse situations before (women hitting on me and such, I just give the "cold shoulder" and walk away), My Love for my wife, is stronger than any other "need" I have, No other woman could "replace" that, at least not at this point.<p>If it comes to a point, that I realize our(Me and W) situation is truly "hopeless",and we do D, then and only then will I open myself to other women "Emotionally", and as for physically, It is not one of my most important needs at this time...<p>I love my W,and unlike her, I'd never do anything like she has done.<p>To quote a friend of mie telling my W about me when we first started dating : "He(me) is as faithful as an old hound dog".<p>I have never cheated on anyone I have been with, and don't have intent to start now.<p>God Bless.

Well Guys, I Just talked to my wife about tomorrow, Unfortunately, I regret to say there is no tommorrow, she told me on the phone her mid is mad up and thats how it is.<p>Regretfully as well, We are now moving to plan B, No contact unless it's through Email. I am going down to where she is staying to drop off the last of her stuff, as well as the formal Plan B letter.<p>From this point on I don't think there is anything I can do to "fix" this, she is the only one who can affect the outcome now.<p>She also told me on the phone, that she hasn't been wearing he wedding ring, she says she just feels weird. (whatf#@*ingever)<p>I also re-affirmed the idea that she is going to be the one who files D as I will not, sign it yes, but not initally file it.<p>I only hope she realizes the impact of this, before it's too late.<p>Now heartbroken and alone, I take her stuff to her, and wish her all the happiness that I could not give her.<p>
God bless those who have been here for me, and those that will come. Thank you.<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

In The continuing struggle to update you: Now it is in her court, she makes the dececision to work it out, she makes the dececision to contact me.<p>I dropped of her stuff, we talked about a couple things, including how and what she needs to file papers, you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know". then what the F*^$ are you doing this for?<p>sorry about that, I handed her the letter, she said she would definately read HNHN now,(She hasn't been), I told her I guess this is goodbye for now, tears started to come down her cheeks, I kissed her on the forehead, and said goodbye.<p>Went out with a friend(Needed someone to talk to) and came home.<p>Moving on with life now, whatever happens, happens. I know I have done all I could do, and that makes me feel good about myself.<p>God Bless. and thank you once again for being here.<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

T,<p>Sory to hear this.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>Now it is in her court, she makes the dececision to work it out, she makes the dececision to contact me.</strong><hr></blockquote>Hate to reminde you of this, but it always was.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>you know what she said, this floors me "there's really no hurry you know".<hr></blockquote> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I told her I guess this is goodbye for now, tears started to come down her cheeks, I kissed her on the forehead, and said goodbye.<hr></blockquote>Can you say FOG? I still say these are signs of her confusion about you and him (a good thing) and the fact that she still cares about you (a good thing) and isn't sure she's doing the right thing (a good thing). I know that I may be the most wrong individule on the planet, but I still see hope. If the reality that sets in is as divergent from her EN's as you say it is, this will die. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Went out with a friend(Needed someone to talk to) and came home.<hr></blockquote>You know you, I don't. I only know me. That said, I think the joury's still out on this one. I'd think twice. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Moving on with life now, whatever happens, happens. I know I have done all I could do, and that makes me feel good about myself.<hr></blockquote>Thats the point of the program.<p>Got to run, I'll catch up later.<p>Thanks
Rev

T,<p>You saw tears. Remember that. Not to get your hopes up but don't want you to discount what you saw. Fog does strange things to the strange. <p>Plan B may have a stronger impact than anything else you have done. Move forward. As much as possible keep busy. Help yourself, help others, have projects, hobbies, etc. Continue to find ways to better yourself but also find time to find some enjoyment also. It will be hard and the easier way is to wallow in pity. <p>Post here when you feel frustrated or whenever. I have been strenghtened by posting to others. Not sure all my words help others but me typing and knowing what to say to others helps put it deeper in my mind. So it is a 2 fold benefit. <p>If you do get sad or depressed, know this is normal. Par for the course. Make sure you are aware and get the help/assistance you need. Work towards being strong for one day she may need you and ask for your help. Help comes in various stages, sometimes helping means stepping back other times it means reaching out. Learn to read the signs well. <p>Don't brow beat yourself. Share with us your insight. You sound like a man who wants to keep is mind clear and focused. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. <p>Take Care.....you are doing good. <p>L.

Thank you all, I will continue working on me, an becoming a better person. I will still be here on MB, and putting in my $0.02 whenever I can, as well as posting if I need support or if there is something to update.<p>You have all been wonderful, but now the true test of love is at hand.<p>and time has the final word...<p>God Bless.

Torizo,
Hey, while I am catching my breath, could you help out ?. There are many of them need help. - thanks -<p>Check this link<p>I am just back from skiing and I crashed my car ... my life flashed before my eyes. Everyone is fine.<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Sorry about the car, good to hear everyone is ok.<p>not much here though, had an interview this morning, I think it went well, I'll find out on monday or wednesday.<p>Nothing new with W since Plan B letter yesterday. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Redhat,<p>What!?!? you crashed the car? I thought you were already on your way home!!! Are you guys able to drive back? <p>By the way, I looked at the thread but it is incomplete. Can you repost it?<p>Thanks,
L<p>T, sorry for stealing your thread. <p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Its ok O, No problem.<p>Nothing new to post here anyways. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Feeling in an OK mood right now, Ya know, it does help to help others, I feel good about reading other posts and lending my $0.02, (If it relates to my situation, or I can lend some advice). [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Unfortunately, there are thos that I have no clue what to say, and must remain silent. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>No new updates on W.<p>Redhat, how's the car, and more importantly you and any family with you? I hope everything is ok.<p>God Bless.

Torizo,
I am glad you still hangin out here. My car is probably totalled, my family is fine but I am more down about my WW upset about the car and not even wishing me happy birthday.<p>I am still think you are too early to move on plan B, however you are the one who knows better. Hang in there.

My "motivation" to go to plan B is : A)she won't go anywhere with me(She's afraid OM won't like it) B)we have been talking less and less every day. C)I "feel" that there was nothing left I could do in plan A.<p>I might be wrong, but it "feels" right for what is happening between us.<p>Let me know what you think.<p>God Bless.<p>and, sorry about the car [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , & Happy Birthday. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]