My wife and I have had a troubled relationship for several years now due to financial problems that were caused by me and a lack of financial discipline. After months of counseling both together and individualy we both appear to be in the same position we were in 2 years ago. That is me loving her and her having no desire to be with me.

It was only this July that it was brought up again and I started counseling again and doing a large amount of reading and studying as I seeked God's help for my life and my marriage. It was during this period that I discovered things like unresolved anger, supressed anger which I think she has toward me. My questions revolve around those but also around a conversation I overheard one night when I picked up the phone to make a call.

1. Will unresolved anger cause your wife to not be able to look at you eye to eye while having a conversation? I have not been able to resolve in my mind that it is simply anger that causes this. I know that if I ma angry I can look anybody in the eye and tell them how I feel.

2. Prolonged negative thinking about one's spouse, will this cause you to see that person and nothing but bad? Case in point is that her complaints were that I never spent any quality time with our children. Over 1 year ago I started participating in Cub Scouts with my son. After 46 weeks of 2 hour weekly meetings, campouts, races, and most everything that was made available by the Cub Scouts. In one of our few (yes I say few as we really have not fought much over the 16 years we have been married)disagreements that we have she made mention that even with South I did not give my son 100%. I did not make 1 certificate for a meeting and I did not buy 1 shirt. Is that fair or has she just convinced herself that I am no good?

But to the conversation I heard which really scared the pants off of me was as follows. She was talking to her best friend. The friend in question is a good friend of both of us but he had atteended a prayer retreat at our church on Saturday. This conversation took place on Sunday night.

Her talking:

I really did not know what to expect when OM arrived Sunday, you know he went to that prayer retreat yesterday. When he did get there I sort of looked at him and asked "Well, how did it go yesterday". He just rolled his eyes and said "Well, I learned I was living in sin" Well. I am quite sure that you and every other man there is probably doing the same. Then he told me that hr really loved me and hoped that he was not going to be a hinderance to our marriage reconcillation. (By this time my mind was running rampant so I may have misunderstood the rest). Well, I guess it's over and something to the effect that "No, what you and I have is good"

That was the jest of the conversation. I approached my wife that night about it but did not tell her that I had heard the conversation. She said that she has not had an affair but I left her with the impression that I would trust her and not call our friend. Dummy that I am I called him the first thing the next morning and expressed my concern and the potential problems that could occur with the position that he was putting himself into. He assured me that nothing had happened and that he would back off if necessary. I then called my wife and told her that I had talked to him but I was to meet him that afternoon to discuss things futher. I then explained to her that I had overheard her conversation and that I wanted he and our friend to explain the following to me.

1. Why were you concerned that the friend you saw on Tuesday night was going to be different that the one you saw on Sunday? If it in only just a friendship as you say there would not be that much concern.

2. Why is a married man telling a married woman that he really loves her?

3. Why is our friend concerned that he might be a hinderance to our marriage being restored?

4. What is it that is over?

5. What is is it that you and he have that is good?

I hung up and called our friend back and told him the same thing. He stated that he was rather busy at the moment but would call me back and set up a time for us to get together. He never did. I called him the next morning only to discover that he was admitted into the hospital early Tuesday morning with a ruptured appendix.

I also called my wife back later,she was an emotional basket case. Crying uncontrolably at work, sobbing, just in general completly upset. I learned later after looking at her cell phone calls that this friend had called her at 10:30 am. I had called her at 11:30 when she was so upset.

Since then I have heard several argurments from her. Things that she has never expressed to me before.

1. I use to travel with work and she said that she was always worried when I was out and staying in motel rooms.

2. My job required me to go back to work after I came home for supper and an evening with the kids. She expressed concern that I was not really going to work during those times.

3. I have an office at the house with a seperate phone line and she stated that she had no idea who or what I was doing out there till all hours of the morning.

All of these concerns came up on different days over the past 2 weeks, but the last was the clincher for me. "When are you going to realise that all of this is your own damn fault". In 16 years of marriage she has never used any cuss words.

All of these fit the classic description of attempting to lay guilt elsewhere to remove it from her.

Our background:

Sexual relations have been non existent for over 4 months. Prior to that they always seemed forced from her. Backing up to our counseling over a year ago there was a time that she appeared to be more intrested in me but that went away after about 6 months.

Sorry to ramble on but this is killing me and I've been dwelling on it for 2 weeks now, wanting to trust her but finding it hard to.

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Trusting Her ]</small>

I am sorry what you are dealing with. The way you describe what has happened and the conversation and the crying of your wife over your friend; I think it is a pretty clear sign that she was having an affair with him. The fact that she told you she was always afraid that you were with other women when traveling is another red flag. First, most cheaters believed that their spouse may be cheating because they are cheating and have same mindset as them. Second, she is using her fear of you cheating on your trips as justification for her affair. Thirdly, it sounds like your friend is too embarrassed to tell you the truth but agreed to back off. Why would he agree to back off if he did not do anything?
I would request that she be tested before you get intimate again and certainlly seek marriage counseling to save your marriage. I wish you luck.

I think that Bryanp pretty well summed it up. None of us were there but sounds like something is obviously wrong here - as you probably suspect being that you posted here.

First - you have every right to expect honesty from your wife - no matter what shape the relationship is in. Confronting her is something you have to decide to do yourself (sorry).

Many of our marriages have suffered affairs or problems due to financial conflicts - this is probably only the tip of the iceburg though. Sounds like somewhere along the line - emotional needs were not being met. And speaking for myself the sex in my relationship was non exixtent much longer than 4 months (I'm sure others here can relate).

Follow your heart - if you believe in God - then pray for guidance on this matter - but do NOT hold your emotions in - feel free to post here as many of us have felt what you are or will be feeling. Many of us have been in similar situations. And many of us DO care and are willing to listen.

God Bless

Strive

Well, the day that she was extremely upset I asked that we go then to see out counselors but she refused, stating that we already had an appointment for the next day. I explained that I thought it would be good to go now as her resolve would be build back up by the next day. Needless to say she refused to go.

She was quite composed the next day during her session but her counselor did give us a depression test. I scored a 7, what ever that means and my wife a -33 which she stated was severely depressed. I do understand that depression, anger and withdrawal go hand in hand with the ending of an affair and I can see this in my wife now.

Yes, there were emotional needs that were not being met in her life. I have realized that and have made adjustments but the only thing I eveh heard from her was finances, kids, and cards. Financial Commitment, Domestic Commitment, and Family Commitment. Those I have attempted to meet and have done quite well I think over the last year, but there was still no real connection between us. After reading about affairs here after hearing her conversation I see how it may have been stopped during periods over the last 2 years but probably always started again.

Yes, the guy did say that he would stop all contact with her. I now think that he actually called her and said he was breaking it off and that is the reason she was upset. The fact that he was admitted the next day for a ruptured appendix helps to confirm that as I think that God is dealing with him in only a way that he can. I personally know what stress and guilt can do to one's body.

The times that she threw stuff back into my face about our past were only days after my discovery. I did approach her last night again in an attempt to clarify the thought that were in my mind. Not wanting to let them run wild without valid reason. She appeared to be quite composed and stable as she denied it. Only bringing up the fact that she has years of bitterness and anger built up against me and that as she deals with that she may get better. But being that one of my cloest friends is a 40 year plus fallen pastor he states that they can look you square in the eye and lie to you about it. The only problem there is that she cannot look me in the eye. I will say that if she had an affair it goes against any and everything tht was instilled in her as a child, it goes against her basic believe system, and definately against her religious beliefs. But as a side note, while still attending church she no longer reads or studies like she used to. She actually gave her Bible to our 5 year old daughter. The very one that was given to her by her father in the late 70's. Ouch! That hurts and almost confirms to me that what she has done is absoutely killing her on the inside.

I see her hurt, I feel her pain but she refuses to allow me to be anywhere near her and that is the part that kills me.

Do I love her? Of course. Do I want her back? Yes! Can God restore our marriage to something even better that what we used to have? Yes! But she has to want it first and I truly think that the guilt she is experiencing is slowly killing her.

We are in counseling, her counselor and mine are both aware of the conversation that I heard. Her counselor is supposed to be a very Godly christian woman, and I hope that she is. But I fear that as long as she hangs on to the hope that her anger toward me is the only problem our marraige can never even enter the reconcillation process.

1. Yes. Un-resolved anger can indeed make someone unwilling to look you straight in the eyes. It's not so much because of you, but because they aren't willing to face and deal with the anger they have. (However...remember this...most liars will look you straight in the eyes when telling a lie.)

2. Focusing on the negative will make a person ignore the positive. Especially, if we are looking for a reason to do something that we know in our hearts is wrong. We attempt to put pressure on "what is wrong" instead of seeking a way of making "it" better. We look for a "reason" to point to, showing us why we are "unhappy", instead of changing why we are "unhappy" and taking the responsiblity of doing something positive about it. (ie, only focusing on what you didn't do when involved in scouts with your DS instead of focusing on what you did do.)

From reading what you posted, I assume she was talking to another friend...about the man friend (?) and was repeating a converstation she had with him prior to the one you overheard...is this correct? If it is, who was this friend that she was sharing the conversation with? A close female friend, family member...who? Is this someone you can talk to?

Since this man is in the hospital, you're not going to be able to confront him at this time. BUT...you can confront your W. You have every right to find out why this man is telling your W that he loves her. This is NOT acceptable. Because she reported that he was hoping to not hinder your marriage, it seems as if she has been sharing personal, intimate details about your marriage to a third party...this is NOT acceptable (unless that third party is a counselor or BOTH of you have agreed to share with this person).

Some of what she has complained about may have validity, however...her pointing out all your shortcomings instead of admitting her own can be a form of misdirection. You might want to admit to what you've done that could be considered...not the best...and validate that she has a point (when valid) then continue on to explaining that you BOTH have done things that were not right, could lead to suspicion but that you are willing to change as much as possible to give her more security. That you now have questions which MUST be answered honestly.

Ok...now a big question for you: IF your W is involved in an affair, either an emotional one or a physical one...what do YOU want? This is the hardest question to answer when in the suspicion stage. It's so very easy to say...I'd walk. I believe almost everyone says that before they have to actually confront the possiblity of losing their marriage. However...Most of us find out that we don't want to walk away.

A marriage can survive an affair. It can become more honest, more loving, healthier. But it sure isn't easy. It takes a LOT of plain ole hard work, forgiveness, understanding...and truth from BOTH.

IF your W is having an affair, the sooner you intrude into her hidden life, the better. jmho
If your W is not having an affair, then the sooner you know that this is not an issue, the better and you can began working on the issues that do need addressing.

Good Luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is, who was this friend that she was sharing the conversation with? A close female friend, family member...who? Is this someone you can talk to?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A very close female friend, her cloest, but also a family friend. I did approach her and ask about the conversation but she just stated that he was a very good listener. She even gave the justification that she used to call him when she was preparing for canser sugery. I explained to her there was a big difference bewteen confiding and etting encouragement for cancer than maritial problems.

The man is not a counselor but a close friend and was our Sunday School teacher for several years. And when he gets out I will confront him with the very questions I posed here. I did confront my wife with those and she answered them but not in a completely satisfactory amnner. At least not well enough to clear my mind. I will not even go into the details of late nights, no contact as to where she was, but will say that they were able to be together every Tuesday night if necessary.

My shortcomings, after 4 months of reading, searching God's word for his will for my life and our marriage I have discovered many and have gone to her confessing my shortcomings and asking forgiveness. There were many times during the last 4 months that I felt there was almost something that she wanted to say but always falls short or clams up before she can say it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF your W is involved in an affair, either an emotional one or a physical one...what do YOU want?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*SMILES* I want my wife back! I want back the woman I fell in love with. I want to hold her, hug her, kiss her and tell her that everything will be OK. I want to tell her that I can and God will forgive her just as he has forgiven me for my sins and failures. I want my kids to quit asking when is Mommy coming home. Will Mommy be home before go to bed. Where is Mommy. Can I do all of that? Alone I cannot, but through God's love and his strenght and courage I can. Through His forgiveness for all sins and failures our marriage can be restored to even something much better than before. That is what I want and what I believe.

It is possible that your W isn't having an affair, she may have just allowed herself to depend on this man in a way that isn't healthy for her marriage. She may have allowed some feelings to grow, which she knows is wrong and against her values. It's hard to admit when we make stupid mistakes. If she was using him as a support system while dealing with cancer, it could very easily be the same type of feelings that sometime revolve around a doctor. These are usually NOT true feelings, but ones that come for an unusual situation of dependency.

You seem to be ready for whatever the truth of what is happening/happened. Although, no one is ever truly ready. Talk to your W. Tell her that you need her to talk to you, honestly. That you're ready to hear without judgement, with an open heart. That you're willing to work on whatever problems she is facing TOGETHER. If feelings have gone outside of what they should, you're capable of understanding that sometimes our emotions do blindside us, but we can control them. We can change them. We can look at them honestly, and realize that sometimes our feelings are not healty, but harmful...not only to ourselves, but to our loved ones.

Whatever has happened, you can survive together.

So you want to work on your marriage - - That's Great !

Just remember - we all have shortcomings and we've all sinned in some way or another - OK?
God knows this too - we as humans are not perfect.
Don't turn this into a "beat yourself up" situation either. That will not be productive.

Most affairs or marital problems start from shortcoming - or percieved shortcomings. What is important is that we learn from our mistakes.

Your wife is not so much a confessor as a person that you want to feel comfortable confiding in - confiding that you are aware of your shortcomings and are willing to work on them.

Sound's as though you two have some serious communication to accomplish - and this can be a challenge.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "*SMILES* I want my wife back! I want back the woman I fell in love with. I want to hold her, hug her, kiss her and tell her that everything will be OK. I want to tell her that I can and God will forgive her just as he has forgiven me for my sins and failures. I want my kids to quit asking when is Mommy coming home. Will Mommy be home before go to bed. Where is Mommy. Can I do all of that? Alone I cannot, but through God's love and his strenght and courage I can. Through His forgiveness for all sins and failures our marriage can be restored to even something much better than before. That is what I want and what I believe. " </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've done a very good job commucating your desires and intentions here !

Stay with it - we're pulling for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've done a very good job commucating your desires and intentions here !
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I have tried to tell her the same thing but it's like talking to a wall.

And since I last posted I obtained the cell phone bills for her phone. There are tons of calls to this guy, all on the days that she is supposed to be somewhere else, even call to his place of business but never any to his house.

I truly believe that she has had an affair with this guy, I truly want her back but she continues to proclaim that he is nothing but a good friend. With the dates and times of the calls I can prove that she was not where she was supposed to be but should I confront her and ask her to explain.

It was mentioned in a previou post that while I did not get to confront the guy in person I did talk to him on the phone. I asked him specific questions about the relationship he had with my wife and told him that I wanted to see him face to face. That never happened because he was admitted to the hospitial early the next morning. Guilt and stress maybe! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That was on October 7 that I confronted my wife and him. For the last several days my wife has appeared to be severely moody, withdrawn, sleeps longer than usual, fails to make her bed in the morning, (which is a ritual with her and all it's pillows) and basically pretends I do not exist right now. Prior to that confrontation I had begin to think that we were getting along better as she had started to smile a bit. And her best friend, the one she was talking with the night I overheard the conversation even told me "Just keep up what your doing. Your wife has told me that she looks at you now and wonders how she ever got involved in this mess" Involved in what mess, our marriage or her affair.

So in the meantime I continue to sit here attempting to meet her emotional needs for well over 4 months now with almost no response from her at all. I'm beginning to feel like a doormat.

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>