Hello all

I have been debating whether or not to post, and decided I can use all the help I can get. My husband and I have been married for 13 years and have no children. He is 46, I am 41. Jack was previously married to a woman who admitted to being gay after 7 years of marriage. They have one child, age 19 who does not live with us. I apologize in advance for not using the acronyms I have seen used in other posts - I am too new at this site to be comfortable knowing what they all mean.

I found out about the affair three weeks ago, after thinking I had the best marriage in the world and was the luckiest person I know. Everyone I know thinks Jack is the most wonderful husband a woman could hope for. He is handsome, kind, works hard and does most of the house work, including laundry, cooking, cleaning, sewing on my buttons, etc. I am a computer programmer; he is a factory supervisor. I am definitely not a fan of housework, but he doesn't mind it. Jack works 12 hour shifts, alternating days and nights with 3, 4 or 5 days off between shifts, meaning, he has a lot of time to himself while I work 8 to 4 on weekdays. He has no real hobbies. He works weekends frequently. He is very generous with affection, and always buys me flowers and writes sweet notes. We go on several romantic vactions a year and enjoy each other's company. We never fight (which is in retrospect probably not a good sign). Although I suffer from a low libido, he has always maintained that he is fine with that, although he would want sex far more often than I do. In the last few years, he hasn't tried to have sex very often, to the point where I was trying to increase his interest, with little success. I just figured he was getting old. I actually was wanting sex a little more but was quite happy to live with what I was getting (the last little while only about twice per month).

Three weeks ago, we had just come home from a pleasant weekend we spent with a nice couple we met while on vacation in Spain last year (we live in Canada about 2 hours away from the couple).

I was sitting on the couch reading a book relaxing, and I believe Jack was in the kitchen. The doorbell rang and he answered it. I couldn't hear what was being said at the door, but assumed someone was trying to sell us something or collect for a charity. Then I saw him throw his hands in the air and step back.

In walks a tall woman with long, red hair, wearing a nice dress and make-up. She was a little overweight, as am I, and as far as attractiveness goes, I think I can say objectively she is about on par with me. I have never seen her before.

She sat down on the loveseat opposite me, while Jack sat in a chair to the side of us. She said "Janet, my name is Helen, and Jack and I have something to tell you."

Well, you can imagine the bottom fell out of my world right then and there. I figured that she and Jack were having a secret affair, were in love and that he was leaving. Shocked as I was, I could not imagine what else she might have to say. My immediate response was to Jack. I said "Why do I have to hear this from a stranger? Why aren't you telling me this?" He just shrugged with a guilty, sad look on his face. I must say right now that Jack is not a very communicative person - he especially never says anything negative. In the past, I have asked him to tell me if anything bothers him, but he always responds that he is happy and that he generally always agrees with me.

So, Helen proceeded to tell me that she and Jack had been having an affair for the past 18 months, and she has decided that it is time for the affair to end and for Jack and I to put our lives back together, as well as for her to get on with her life. They have tried to break it off but just could not find the strength to do it. She said she broke up with him recently, but then he called her "by accident", and they started seeing each other again. She admitted that she was in love with him, after I asked, but said Jack had never told her that he loved her. He does admit to caring for he. He always told her that he loved me and would never leave me. Apparently, this was a purely sexual relationship; they never went out on dates, he never bought her gifts, etc. They met through a phone-type dating and chat service. She was actually looking for a traditional relationship, but they met on a chat where people searching for all types of relationships meet. He, apparently, has discovered some submissive tendencies in himself and wanted to explore them - she apparently has dominant sexual needs. When I asked him if he had had other affairs, he said no, but Helen said it was time for him to be truly truthful, and he admitted another short affair about 3 years ago.

All of this came as a giant shock to me, as you can well imagine. Jack had never told me he was looking for this type of sex, although I am aware he enjoys pornography and the idea of kinky-type things. I asked him why he never told me this was what he wanted (the submissive stuff) and he said he was afraid to ask me, assuming I would assume he was a pervert, and that I would never go for this stuff. I am not the most sexually uninhibited person and being somewhat overweight has made me self-conscious to the point where I don't feel sexy. Jack has always told me he finds me attractive and he would love me and find me sexy even if I gained 300 pounds. Still, I don't see myself enjoying a dominant sexual role, although I admit that I am quite dominant in other aspects of my life - at work and in my relationship with Jack. I must say, although the thought of anything sexual repels me right now, I know that if, at the time, he had said that he is bored and looking for something different or he might stray, to protect my relationship, I probably would have been up to try just about anything. Of course, I'm sure he was looking for an enthusiastic participant, not his wife doing something she finds uncomfortable or unpleasant just to please him. He has always said he would rather have no sex at all rather than have me have sex with him just to please him.

So, back to the day I found out. Believe it or not, the three of us sat there for about two hours. Perhaps it was the shock, or perhaps subconsciously I has suspected something was amiss, but I did not freak out. I sat calmly and asked Helen all types of questions which I believe she answered honestly. Jack said over and over again how sorry he was to have hurt me and that he wanted to spend the rest of his life making up to me for this. Now this is the weird part: I actually found myself liking Helen. I know that if we had met under other circumstances, she and I could have been great friends (I actually told her this and she agreed.) She and I seemed to have quite a lot in common, and she honestly seemed like a nice person who had made a big mistake. She has been suffering from depresson and other emotional problems and is currently on disability from her work as a librarian (I am an avid reader). I could not help feeling sorry for her and angry that my husband could take such advantage of a vulnerable person. Of course, both of them realize what they did was wrong, but she wasn't the one who betrayed me - he was. I think she was just lonely. I still cannot understand why Jack could not have told me about this himself, but it appears he did not really want the affair to end, and Helen was probably too emotionally weak to resist. I think her telling me in person (she had warned him she would do this) was her way of making sure it was over for good. I can't help thinking now that a small part of her was wishing I would freak out, throw Jack out, and she could have him to herself, but she did not admit to this.

Well, after talking for two hours (I even gave her a drink and set my kitten on her lap once she told me she loves cats), she decided it was time to leave. She apologized again and said she hoped we could work out our problems. She walked out the door and I noticed she didn't have a car. I called out and asked how she was getting home (she lives across town) and she said she would get a cab. I told Jack to drive her home. He tearfully asked if I would still be here when he got back and I said I would. She actually called me the next day (Jack was at work, which she knew) and asked me how I was doing and hoped I would feel better soon.

As you can imagine, the past three weeks have been hell. Strangely, though, I never really considered leaving, although I am financially independent and have a strong cirle of friends and family for support. Jack really has no friends other than the friends we share as a couple. I did threaten to leave, though, mostly to punish Jack and scare him. I made a point of looking at on-line real estate ads in his presence, etc.

The very next day, I went out and bought "After the Affair" by Janis Abrahms. Although I'm sure I was still in shock and didn't absorb that much of the book, there were certainly parts of that book that gave me insight into what Jack would be feeling, and validated my feelings of rage, grief, hopelessness, etc. I insisted he read the book, which he did. He is willing to do absolutely anything I ask to repair our marriage. Due to our schedules (and spending five days away on a pre-planned vacation last week with friends from Chicago we met on a cruise in May), we have not had much time to discuss our various issues, and only got in to see a counseller last week.

I picked up Harley's "Surviving An Affair" from the library last week and read it today, and I got a lot out of the book. I found the "Sue and Jon" case study to be a bit extreme, but Harley's methods seem very logical and helpful. If Jon could forgive Sue, surely I can someday forgive Jack. I will make sure Jack reads Harley's book as well. The book caused me to realize that I have several emotional needs that are not being met, and I have neglected many of Jack's needs that neither of us really realized he had (other than the sexual ones, I mean).

So, I guess I should ask some questions to those here who have read "Surviving the Affair" and have experienced the things I am experiencing.

1. If you are a betrayed wife, how long did it take for you to start having sex with your husband again? Although I slept in our spare bedroom for about a week, I found myself missing the physical closeness with Jack and we now are sleeping in our bedroom together, although we are not having sex and I don't know when I will feel like doing it again. Our counseller suggested that six months was often a reasonable time to begin to heal and feel trusting enough to attempt a physical relationship. I am afraid that if I hold off that long, Jack will look elsewhere again. Although he swears up and down he will never stray again, he is obviously capable of deceit (which I never ever expected) and if his sexual needs were urgent enough to cause him to stray when he was still having sex with me once or twice a week, how long would he hold out if he has no sex from me for six months?

2. For readers of "Surviving an Affair", how easy was it for you to list your top five emotional needs? I think all the needs seem so important, I can't imagine being able to prioritize five of them. I am waffling between identifying the needs I am now realizing I had that were not met, and the needs that Jack has always fulfulled so well.

3. I have been both wittingly and unwittingly punishing Jack the last three weeks by making him aware of how unhappy and grief-stricken I am because of his affairs. I can't seem to stop myself from saying hurtful things to make him feel bad, more than because I need to get them out. Harley's book has made me look at my punishing behaviour in a different light. However, for those of you who were betrayed and are trying to follow the advice of "Surviving an Affair", did you ever feel that by depositing Love Units instead of punishing your betraying spouse, you were lettng them off too easy? That they might just have an affair again because they got off so lightly this time and were basically rewarded with Love Units, rather than punished and berated for their betrayal?

Sorry this post is so long. I got carried away, due to the fact that I haven't told any family or friends about the affair, and keeping it bottled up has been wearing me down. I did end up talking to my family doctor after asking her to test me for STD's. She was a very interested and patient listener, considering that my appointment had been actually booked for a simple yearly physical. She also suspects that I may have a thyroid problem (tests have been booked). I read in a magazine article this week that thyroid problems can cause lowered libido for women. I am nearly hoping that the diagnosis is true, so that pills might help me recover my libido, and help me lose a little weight. Pretty sad that I am actually hoping to be diagnosed with an illness!

Thank you to those that managed to read this whole post. I am sorry that any of you have had the sad need to visit this website and wish you success in repairing your relationship.

Janet

Janet,

I don't have much advice for you, just wanted you to know how sorry I am you're going through this.
All of us here have been touched by infidelity. It's a tough road to travel, but you can survive.

As far as being able to be intimate again goes, I think everyone's timetable is different. You'll know when it's right for YOU. Also, keep reading. The books you've read and are reading will help. If possible, try and get your H to read them also. Counseling will be of great help to you and your H as well.

Janet,

There's a lot of great stuff on this website. If only it were a little easier to FIND!

I came across these two "notable threads" yesterday, and found them most valuable in explaining "Plan A"

Question for Plan A Veterans

This is the Plan A Question

These don't exactly answer your concern, but they are nice to read anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Maggie and Seven

Thanks for your responses. It's so good to know I'm not alone. The hardest part for me has not been talking to anyone. Since I plan to stay with my husband, I don't want any friends and family to know, since I think that would change all of our good relationships with others.

I'll make sure to read your links, Seven.

Janet

Hi Janet:

You sound like you are coping pretty well so far. Since I have seen a lot of people pass thru these boards, let me try to answer your q's

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. If you are a betrayed wife, how long did it take for you to start having sex with your husband again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've seen this vary from practically no time at all to months. For some couples, starting sex soon is a way of "reclaiming" the relationship, for others it takes a while to feel ready. There is no "right" time...just what feels right to you. Don't worry about a schedule. You are building a new relationship, and I think you will know when that relationship is ready for sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. For readers of "Surviving an Affair", how easy was it for you to list your top five emotional needs? I think all the needs seem so important, I can't imagine being able to prioritize five of them. I am waffling between identifying the needs I am now realizing I had that were not met, and the needs that Jack has always fulfulled so well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me, the top 3 were easy, the last two harder. Harley suggests thinking about which ones you would be/are most unhappy if they are NOT met...those are the most important ones.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. I have been both wittingly and unwittingly punishing Jack the last three weeks by making him aware of how unhappy and grief-stricken I am because of his affairs. I can't seem to stop myself from saying hurtful things to make him feel bad, more than because I need to get them out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do need to be honest about your feelings. Yet you do not want to be using those feelings to punish him. Why on earth would anyone want to rebuild a marriage with someone who will hold his mistakes over his head "to make him feel bad." So, work on openly communicating your hurt/pain/confusion etc in a less hurtful fashion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, for those of you who were betrayed and are trying to follow the advice of "Surviving an Affair", did you ever feel that by depositing Love Units instead of punishing your betraying spouse, you were lettng them off too easy?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've seen many people ponder that exact question. Change your focus from "punishment" to "compensation". How can he help make amends? Probably by being open and honest about his time and whereabouts, computer usage, etc (to rebuild trust) and to work to meet your ENs better. The best way of making amends is to use this painful experience to build a better marriage.

Good Luck.

Kathi

I have a couple of observations. One, another book I will recommend to you is "The State of Affairs" by Mulliken, because it addresses issues of control in marriage in a way that I think you will find helpful. One way to help conflict avoiders like Jack become more open is to make it more safe for them to be so. Some of his inhibitions are internal, so changes in your behavior alone will not be sufficient to cause him to open up, but they can help. Two is: do you understand how Jack's conflict avoiding behavior affects your libido? I have been in Jack's place, where my conflict avoidance prevented my wife and I from dealing with our differences which became a barrier to emotional intimacy with her - and without that emotional connection, she was just not interested physically. I suspect there are similar dynamics in your relationship.

Since you are a reader, click on the link in my signature line for some more reading that will be helpful.

Kathi and John

Thank you both for your thoughtful responses.

Kathi - 1. Some days I think I'm ready right now and other days I don't think I'll ever want to be intimate again. Our counselor suggested that six months is sometimes a starting point. When she said that, I must admit I heaved a sigh of relief. Jack says he's willing to wait as long as it takes, but part of me can't help being afraid that if this important emotional need doesn't get met sooner rather than later, he may be looking for someone else to take up the slack. He swears it will never happen again, but he has proven that he is not quite as honest as I always thought he was. It's going to take a while for me to be able to trust him at his word.

2. I will look over the needs list again. Although I would not put needs like Physical Attractiveness, Admiration and Financial Support in the top five, if I picture Jack never shaving or showering again, never complimenting my appearance, or never earning another dime, well, then those needs look a lot more important. :-)

3. Jack is certainly compensating me for his betrayal. He is willing to do just about anything to make me happy. Of course, my happiness will have to come with time. I do notice that he is trying harder to be open with his feelings, which is a first. I, in turn, will try to speak to him respectfully, even if sometimes I feel he doesn't deserve it after what he has put me through. I often forget the goal of my making deposits in his Love Bank when I don't feel very loving. My goal is to improve our relationship. When I think of it that way, I feel more willing to act and speak kindly and respectfully to him. I really shouldn't want to punish him too harshly, since the more soul searching I do, the more I realize that I am also to blame for the deterioration of our relationship.

John - You have a good point. Jack's whole family seems to avoid conflict at all costs, and conversation really doesn't come easily to any of them. Your post makes me realize that I certainly haven't helped Jack's conflict avoidance tendencies. I take criticism very hard, and if someone mentions something that I feel guilty about, my first reaction is to switch the blame and become defensive. I have not made it easy for Jack to express any negativity, and he keeps everything bottled up inside. The odd time I ask him if he is happy or if anything is bothering him, he always says he is happy, but I haven't made it easy for him to say otherwise. I will certainly have to change my approach and be more open to honest communication. It is possible that my low libido partially stems from not feeling very close to Jack since I tell him everything I am thinking, yet he doesn't confide in me. His individual counseling starts next week, and that is something he plans to bring forward. I will have to read "The State of Affairs" since I definitely have the control in our relationship, and it's time for a bit of a change.

Thank you both for your excellent advice.

Janet

Janet,

If the experience of reading here for over 4 years is any indicator, your counselor is wrong about the 6 months and your intuition is right. As Kathi said, we have seen people (yes women too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) resume relations immediately, and other's wait for a long time. Oddly, the longest hold outs were not the Betrayed spouses, BS, but the wayward spouses, WS's. Go figure.

I think you really missed the sublty of Kathi's comment about commpensation rather than punishment. It is a whole different way of looking at things.

For example if I were to suggest to you that YOU need to start meeting your H's needs, your first response would be RIGHT!, he cheated on me and you want me to meet his needs??? Get real. But, if you read about plan A, that is precisely what is often recommended here. It is counter intuitive, BUT stop a moment and think.

Your H did not want to hurt you, he did not want to leave you, he loved you, YET he had an affair. Why? He needed something from this marriage and he wasn't getting it. Go back and read your first post again, and notice how easily you dismissed your low libdo and his sexual needs. You felt that if he really needed the sex, he would do the caveman act, but the problem is that he prefers a passive role in sex, so there was NO WAY he could do that to you.

Are you seeing where I am going? If you want this marriage, then I think you need to consider meeting his needs, and loving him. If you do this you will get your revenge. It will come in the form of guilt on his part. You may think great! He should feel guilty, but one of the hardest things to overcome in recovery is the WS's guilt. It can stall a marriage, that is why Kathi mentioned "compensation" rather than punishment. If you want this marriage, believe it or not, your biggest obstacle is likely to be his guilt.

Did you also notice that he selected a woman very much like you, with the same interests and passions? That is a positive sign.

Janet, I know you are hurt. But, when you wrote out your story, one could see it coming. How? Because your story has been on her for so long.

As for your recovery, it will depend on you. Your H can do all he can, and if you decide to remain hurt you will be. If you decide to recover and ask his assistance in making sure you know where he is and him building trust your recovery will definitly be faster.

Finally, about the needs, your needs and your H's needs will change as you go through this. I would bet that HONESTY will be high on your needs list now, but if you H displays to you that he can be trusted then Honesty might slip abit and something else may raise its head.

I would also suggest that you consider that he has acted like a loving H through most of the A. That can be very disturbing to your sense to trust, but it also means he never really got heavily emotionally hooked on the OW (other woman) as many here do.

I see a lot of good signs here, from you and your H wanting to continue the marriage to many things you said. So I would strongly suggest that you consider meeting your H's needs soon. Don't worry about him getting of "scott free". He won't and isn't. You won't have to punish him trust me on this. You meeting his needs will be a bitter/sweet thing for him.

So much to say, but I am sure a lot of this must sink in. Please keep posting and asking questions. Things actually sound very good for you and your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

JL - you are obviously speaking from experience, and your post made so much sense to me, it actually made me cry.

It is hard to put being hurt aside and act in a loving way, but you are so right to make note of the fact that my WH has been a very loving husband right from day one until now. He has always acted in a way that showed respect and kindness to me. I'm sure that his mistake is eating him alive and seeing me act hurt is very hard on him.

I do know that I will feel ready before six months is over, and on your wise advice, I will act when ready. He had a hernia operation yesterday, so that gives me a little breathing room; I suspect that by the time he is ready, I will be as well, and in the meantime, I am going to treat him as well as I can.

JL - thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. You certainly seem to understand human nature and I appreciate your taking the time to help me see more clearly.

Janet

Janet,
I am new here but have experienced some of your same frustrations.
I too, have a very hard time with Plan A because I feel that gets him off too easy. My instict is that he was weak and wrong and should have to bear my emotional rollercoasters. I did nothing wrong so why the heck should I be nice. But after reading so much of this site, I've read some great insights. The best one that helps me is someone that said "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" I repeat that to myself often and it helps ALOT.
Also, your emotional need question is one I have too, and I too would like others input. We am struggling with ones like Financial Support and Physical Attractiveness. He meets those ones very well and I take it for granted. But to put that on my top five seems awful. If he gained some weight and lost his hair and the economy slowed his income down drastically, it really would not make me unhappy with him, at all. If he stopped showering and decided what he really wanted from life was to be an actor.......... then those become my greatest two EN.

Janet,

I am glad that I could help and that you will give your H another chance. I reread some of this thread and a thought occured to me. I don't know if it is signigicant and I am not sure I am offering you any good insight. The OW mentioned that Jack was curious about some submissive aspects of sex. I don't know if the two of you have dicussed this, but you should. I would like to offer you a thought on the subject.

I would bet his interest in such things has to do with his need to KNOW that you love him and want him. I would also guess that your low libdo has made him question his abilities. Even if you are not inclined toward such role playing, I would really like you to consider taking a more proactive role in your sex life. Why? I am guessing and this isn't my line of work, but I think this isn't so much about sex as it his NEEDING you to show you notice him and care for him.

You may not realize this, but you have enjoyed and played a part in this sort of thing already. Look who has taken on the traditional female role in your house. Your H. He is apparently comfortable in it, but perhaps it is his need to be needed that you are seeing here.

I am guessing that you sort of took his role in the family for granted. I am guessing that he needed much more feedback from you, so he sought it elsewhere.

I think you are doing well, and I think you have a great chance to make this marriage much better than you realize. Do not fear him, talk to him, listen to him, and ask him lots of questions NOT about the affair, but about how he sees his life. If you are not judgemental, I suspect you will soon learn how to make both of your lives very happy and not have to worry about another affair.

It is an unusual situation you are in, because of your H's view of things, and the OW. Please talk to him about this, and seek some counceling, it may lead to you two finding it easier to open up.

DU, needs change and I think your top two are pretty normal. Attractive spouse, and FS are usually up there for women. I know you feel bad, but the reality is that you probably wouldn't have married your H if he didn't offer these two things.

I will say that most men would guess that Financial security is their W's first need, and most do fear that if they failed in this their W would leave them. So I guess this is one of your H's biggest fears, it is big with men. If you feel you would stand by him when things got tough, then tell him that. If you feel you would stand by him if something awful happened to him tell him.

AS for plan A, is he out of the affair? If so then plan A is over. It is part of a strategy to try and end the affair and have the spouse come back to the marriage. Now, if you are NOT nice to him, why would he come back. If he does and you continue to treat him poorly then he will leave. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You see affairs rarely happen in a vacuum. They are driven by the status of the marriage before the A. The A is still 100% their fault. But you may be missing is that if the A is over, the marriage still must be rebuilt, and it won't be if LB's are a big part of the new relationship. Punishment is really NOT your right. You have the right to stay or leave, but PUNISH??? No!

I know this seems odd, definitely not an "eye for an eye", but marriage is not about an "eye for an eye", it is about living with someone who you love and loves you, and who mutually support one another. If you cannot do this, then even Biblically and in fact in just about any other religion, you have the right to divorce. If you decide to stay you need to stay as a full and loving partner.

I know this is hard, but it is reality. Oh! and Plan A is hard to do, becaue it requires that your "taker" be completely put on hold. That is why Harley only recommends it for a short time, before going to plan B. And it is also why Plan A'ing should not be done for the rest of the marriage. There needs to be a balance between taker/giver, if there is not eventually something will blow. So while many aspects of plan A are good to continue to do in a marriage, plan A itself is NOT.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL