I know that I am in the minority here, but I just can't see myself trying to be with a spouse that maintains his/her affair after discovery. I am having great difficulty working on rebuilding a better marriage than I had before even after my W hasn't had any known contact since discovery. Resentment is my main problem at the moment, even though I fully realize my part in creating an atmosphere that would lead to an affair. To try to rebuild with someone who obviously does not put the same value on the relationship and openly admits it has to be the most painful and humiliating episodes in a person's life, and I believe life is too short to go through that type of pain. To know and have it thrown in your face that your spouse is still sleeping with someone else for me would be totally unbearable, I would have to move on, hell it is hard enough to deal with even though it has stopped. Either the people who put up with this are afraid to be alone and move on or they possess a love that I simply do not have in me............I wish you all luck!!

F A-<P>Well, I can only speak for myself here, but here goes.<BR>I am not afraid to move on with my life. I am moving on with my life. I am assuming that our divorce will go through, that my H will not give up OW, and that I will meet someone else. But, this is only an assumption.<BR>As far as having a love that you don't possess, I don't buy that either. My love for my H is a deep committment to him , to my D and to my family. It is also the kind of love that God gives me.<BR>I don't have those 'tingly' love feelings, like you have when you first "fall in love". I do have great passion for him, but it is different.<BR>I am trying to get my H to see, that, no matter what he does, what I do, we can and should be forgiven for our sins. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.<BR>I also believe that my H continues his affair now, because he has moved out, he has filed and he is lonely. He is scared to come back and face the piper, so to speak. <BR>I actually feel bad for him, knowing that may be exactly what he wants to do, but is to guilt-ridden to do it.<BR>I am rambling tonight. Sorry.<BR>I guess my point it this. If you can't take the pain, then don't. If you want out, it's ok. But, if you can hang on, for however long, i think it will only make you a stronger, better person.<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl<P>PS- I am going to reread SAA! I need to be re'educated' !<P>

Cheryl...<P>I see this 100% the same way with my W... <P>It's sad...<BR>What may be sadder is holding on too long... to the point of hurting our ability to love and be loved again.<P>I don't even want to consider this possibility... but I'm beginning to think it can happen.<P>I hope to get some good advice from Steve Harley on this Monday 12/27. <P>I'm praying hard for you tonight...<BR>I see what you are saying so clearly...<P>Jim

RMA,<P>Thanks for shareing you sessions.<P>Do we have the same plan-a guide?<P>I can totaly see Steves points.<P>I need to reread the part on LBs and plan-a.<P>Is calling dude LRB around my W a LB?hehe<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

What I don't understand is how you can avoid upsetting your spouse when your very existence makes them angry. And I don't necessarily agree that letters/email/phone calls are better - often my H has a harder time being cruel to me when he is standing right in front of me. <P>Plan B may be good for the betrayed, but I think it is horrible for the children. I can not totally avoid difficult subjects and still do a decent job of raising the children. <P>As long as you try to avoid LB's, I don't think it makes any difference at all what you do as long as the spouse is in the affair, especially if they are consumed by "narcissistic rage".

YIKES!!!!! My server went down last night and kicked me off and I could not get back on to see all these posts.<P>Let me try to answer as best I understood what Steve was trying to say to me:<P>My situation may be different from some - my H has moved out, is NOT living with the OW (she lives in another state), but spending time with her weekly. He has not filed for divorce and told me two days ago that he does not want to file for divorce right now, that he is inlove with the OW, and that he is having this affair because he can never forgive me for having an EA two years ago.<P>Since my H moved out about 10 weeks ago, we have had little contact. Bascially, I was AVOIDING contact with him, trying to do a modifed PlanAPlanB - being nice when I saw him. 2 weeks ago I decided to call Steve Harley and Steve told me to move directly back to PlanA. FOR ME, the reason to go back to PlanA was that we feel my H's affair is a retaliation affair due to ME having emotionally left him 2 years ago, so WHY in the HELL am I doing that AGAIN, NOW by avoiding him, if I want to save my marriage????????????<P>So, here I am trying to PlanA, but my H is further from me emotionally now. So, in order for me to try to re-engage some interest here, I need to make it "safe" and "happy" for him to interact with me. Thus, our talks AT THIS POINT (not forever!!!) need to be like people who are "dating". To at least keep him wanting to have some contact with me so I can show him all my positives again (I do have a few, although my negatives have also been clearly spelled out here, too).<P>MAKE ONE THING CLEAR: PLANA WILL NOT BRING MY H HOME. AS HEARTPAIN AND OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT - MY H WILL ONLY COME HOME IF HE WANTS TO. SINCE HE AND THE OW ARE IN LOVE, THEIR RELATIONSHIP WILL HAVE TO FLOP FIRST.<P>OK, so I am doing PlanA to give my H BETTER last memories of me when I go to PlanB. It is not good to have him remember my emotional withdrawal as our last interactions, when I go to B, as my emotional withdrawal is part of his ORIGINAL BEEF with me (my EA).<P>To do a good PlanA might seem like being a doormat and enabler and Steve and I did discuss this. Yes, in a way, they are definitely BOTH. Yet, I am trying to leave a legacy here for my H in the event he ever turns around. So, I can do this for a while longer. When I feel too debased, then I go to PlanB.<P>In regards to why am I doing this??? I am NOT afraid to be alone - Hell, I AM alone right now. I haven't lain next to anyone or had sex in exactly 10 weeks today (NOT that I am counting!). I do feel that I could move on and have a happy life if we end up divorced. I know I will find love, again. I am spending alot of time with friends and family having fun. I am just unpartnered right now.<P>BUT, I have already been divorced once and getting that little peice of paper DOES NOT ease the suffering one little bit. You still have to go through the entire process no matter if you get back together of if you get divorced. I would rather rebuiild with the man I know than go through all of this and maybe find someone else and have to live with their imperfections, too. There is no guarantee that the next time will be better for anyone. I would rather keep my family intact and work with my H, because at this point, I still love him. Despite his current actions, my H is a very good man and we ahve ahd a loving relationship. But, the man AIN'T perfect, and NEITHER was I! Perfect people DO NOT exist.<P>I know I will not love him forever ifr this continues, and until I feel like it isn't worth it, this seems to be the best way to go for me....<P><BR>ceecee and all, <P>If your S is talking to you and showing willingness to work on the marriage, then I think PlanA has to take on a little different tone that it does for me. If, however, you have a S who shows no inclination to do anything towards the marriage and is totally immersed in the affair like my H, then according to Steve, this is the BEST avenue to go. After all, talking about the mistakes and the hows and whys and whos and when and wheres doesn't make the wayward S give up the affair. PlanA doesn't make the wayward S give up the affair. Neither does planB. It is your S's decision that YOU are better for him or her than the OP, and PlanA allows you to set that legacy in place.<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Again, I know that I'm in the minority here, but it just seems to me going through a Plan A with a spouse that is openly having an affair and waiting for that relationship to flop and having your spouse come back after that relationship didn't work out is to me allowing yourself to being disrespected, used and humiliated. Again, I am going through these emotions with a W that has stopped contact with the OM. But even though there has been no contact, I still can't help but wonder if she would have left me if the OM cared about her like she did for him, if he would have left his wife, would she have left me. These are thoughts that sometimes creep into my head and make it difficult for me to follow through on my own Plan A, but to accept her back after her leaving me because another relationship didn't work out, is something I know I definitely wouldn't do. I may very well be way off base, but it seems to me that people are allowing themselves to be used as a security blanket when all else fails. It reminds of the old song, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." Do you really want to be with someone who views you as their second choice, someone to be with only because it didn't work out with the person that they really wanted to be with, do you really want to be that second choice? Again, I may be way off base, but those are the thoughts that cross my mind when I read some of the things posted here. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

F A,<P>No, you haven't offended me. Many people feel like you - the affair is happening and the S needs to quit right now or the marriage is over. <P>My H feels even stronger - his approach is that I had an EA and he wasn't #1 in my life and he can never accept or get over that, so that is why he "left".<P>I am doing what I am doing out of MY CHOICE. I can file for divorce...and I may yet do that. I could have said to my H "OK, youcan live here and sleep with me and have the OW on the side." I defintely did NOT say this, and in fact said the opposite, which is why my H decided to leave. I could wait a little longer here, which is what I am doing. I am using my time as constructively as possible to stabalize my emotions and form a new routine for myself. I am spending time in counsleing to better myself. I am enjoying time alone, which I never had before. I am spending more time with family and friends. <P>Am I sitting here waiting for him to come home????? Yes, in all honesty...a big part of me is wishing that. In large part, I do feel my H will "get over" my EA and eventually forgive me and want to rebuild with me. Realistically, I must face the fact that he might never do that. I know that time alone will resolve things one way or the other.<P>For me, I think about how my life would be different if I was divorced? The only thing I would do that I am not doing right now is to date. I have to tell you, I would enjoy some affection and attention so VERY much right now. But, on the other hand, if I was single, I am so desperate for the attention and affection, I might just hop into the sack with anybody if I was single. This would not be good for me, because I am not the bed-hopping type at all. Much better for me to spend this time focusing on healing myself. In my heart, I honestly believe that my H and I will get back together one day. But, I can not discount that I might be fooling myself, too. Anyway, this is why I continue to stay married to him right now, although he IS dishonoring me and disrespecting me in the vilest of ways imaginable.<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

<BR>F A<P>One guy to another-I feel your pain. You're not wrong to have these feelings (VERY NORMAL) but your Taker is in charge.<P>To see what I mean read Dr. Harley's articles about the Taker and all other infidelity articles immediately.<P>You won't "feel" better,but you'll understand what's going on inside, and if you're interested, the process to try and heal your marriage.<P>P.S. One big tough capable mean "man's man" macho guy to another-most likely you want to heal your marriage or you wouldn't be here.<P>You've come to a place that can really help you do it. Good luck and feel free to ask more-I've been there.<P><BR>JBarn

JBarn <P>I have read all the articles on this website and I understand what's going on, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with everything that is in the articles. I don't believe it is a matter of my Taker being in control, it is a matter of having some type of self respect for yourself as a human being. I agree totally with the principles here about rebuilding a marriage when you have two people who want to do just that, but what I have been commenting on is the situations where the betrayer is continuing their affairs after discovery and the betrayed follow either a Plan A or a Plan B with the hopes of one day rebuilding their marriages. Like I stated in an earlier post, I may be way off base, but taking back a spouse that only is returning because their relationship with the OP didn't work out is playing second fiddle, it's being there only because they don't have the person that they REALLY want. I am just posing the question, do people really want to take back someone and live their lives knowing that the only reason their spouse is there is because it didn't work out with someones else and not because they really wanted to be there in the first place? Addiction or no addiction, do you really want to be with someone who would walk out on you and your family, an affair is bad enough, but to choose the OP and abandon an entire family is taking it to a whole other level.............just something to think about.

I've lived them both for extended periods of time, counseled with Steve, read nearly everything in print and have plenty of comments. Bear with me.<P>Plan A is meant to be temporary. It's most fundamental requirement is NO LOVEBUSTING. It's secondary goal is to attempt to meet emotional needs if the betrayer will let you. While an affair is active, most betrayers WILL NOT be responsive to you meeting their needs. Initially, they may reject your attempts (like not acknowledging gifts and cards). Eventually, they may thank you for things as they would any other acquaintance on the planet. But the meeting of emotional needs has very small, if any, payback while an affair is active. Harley hopes it will be a pleasant memory at some future date when the affair blows-up.<P>It is counter-intuitive to try to fix a marriage by not talking about the problems. But the reality is the affair is all consuming. So bringing up the marital problems or talking about the future are lovebusters when the spouse doesn't want to talk about them. In essence, they become a selfish demand - a demand to talk and to impose our will and superior judgment on them through persuasion. THE BETRAYED CANNOT MAKE THE SPOUSE STOP THE AFFAIR AND WORK ON THE MARRIAGE, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO. Only the betrayer can stop the affair, and they have to really want to. If they come back through coersion or persuasion, it won't last. The addiction is too strong.<P>The educating them comment has also been a very tough one for me. But again, you have to remember what we're dealing with. The spouse DOESN'T WANT TO BE EDUCATED. They want to continue their affair without being bothered by things like responsibilities, guilt, other people's opinions, or some written prognosis that affairs end. They are in a fantasy and want to stay there.<P>Furthermore, educating a spouse is a disrespectful judgment. It says that I've taken the trouble whereas you haven't, I know more, and if you would only get your act together, you'd see that I was right. Definitely a lovebuster.<P>So Plan A is really about not lovebusting. That is feasible to do for extended periods of time. With very few exceptions, I haven't lovebusted in more than a year.<P>But unrequited attempts at needs-meeting is not feasible to do indefinitely, in fact, not for very long at all. I don't know too many people that can continue to send their spouse gifts, cards and letters, not get acknowledgement of receipt, while knowing an affair is active, and not get angry. Furthermore, for some of us that have literally been abandoned with all responsibilities and have watched their spouses ditch children, continuing to needs-meet as the respect level literally plummets and resentment builds becomes practically impossible. That is where I'm at.<P>The comments made about being a doormat and maintaining self-respect are relevant, in my opinion. I have concluded that there is never a need for lovebusting, as it is only destructive. But conversely, there is no need to continue to treat a cheating spouse like a king indefinitely. It does impact your self respect after a while. When you've done it for more than three months or so, you get disgusted WITH YOURSELF. Then it's time for Plan B, if you still love your spouse.<P>Harley's plans are great guidelines for those who really want to save the marriage and can forgive what the betrayed has done. But, Plan A is extremely hard to do. It requires the most unnatural of reactions - for a betrayed spouse to give, give, give in the face of continued hurt from the betrayer. It requires you to be positive and up when you feel destroyed. And it demands that you stop discussing the marital problems and hold your tongue at a time when it's obsessing you. Most people do not have the self control to do this for long.<P>Unfortunately, the affair really rules the outcome and there is nothing we betrayed can do about the affair. While it's active, nothing really works. When you're in Plan A, you're really working on establishing a good memory for later on, when the affair is over. It will not cause the affair to end. And even if the affair ends, there is no guarantee that the betrayer is coming back, although they almost certainly will be more open to it then.<P>Furthermore, while affairs are active, many betrayers leave the human race. They may become cruel and angry, blame the betrayed for everything, completely irresponsible, lose their values, ditch their children, drop friends and family, and plenty of other horrible things that they would never otherwise have done. To watch this close-up is very destructive to the betrayed's love bank. If you stay too close to them with Plan A and endure this behavior, you lose your love quickly. Another reason not to stay in Plan A too long.<P>So for all of you doing this, listen carefully to Steve. He'll tell you how to do a good Plan A, but don't stay there too long. If the affair doesn't end, protect yourself and your lovebank. The trick to this is to understand it's all a big waiting game. Which will happen first - the affair ends or you lose your love? You want to set yourself up to wait the maximum amount of time for the affair to end, while you still have some desire left to work on the marriage.<P>Good luck to all.

F A<P>I know I know-but I'm sorry, I don't buy it!<BR>You sound like I did (by the way, I'm dealing with a W with infidelity issues and things are starting to improve).<P>Just the fact that you seem to be consumed by thoughts about "self-respect","yourself", "I" this,"I" that, tells me your Taker is The Man. Could this have contibuted to your trouble?-it sure did for me.<P>OK OK,not to beat on you-you're doing a good enough job for me. I can tell your torn up about your W coming back to you as fall-back etc. etc. Do you want her back?<P>F A, the only hope for you to be the type of H that I sense you want to be, is to have a W to be one for. Do you want to try with the one you have, or not? If so, take her back and go to work. Like Dr. Harley says, if the marriage is going down,at least let it go down fighting.<P>Would any self-respecting men proud of his abilities have it any other way? <P><BR>JBarn<P>P.S. I just saw your thread on "Infidelity Personalities"-you're determined to "figure it out" aren't you?<p>[This message has been edited by JBarn (edited December 24, 1999).]

Distressed,<P>You posted exactly what I have been trying to say and you did a mighty fine job there. The betrayer will have to decide if he or she wants out of the affair and no Plan anything is going to make that happen. I also loved your comment about the betrayer "leaving the human race during the affair." How true...my H has isolated himself from so many. He has "kept" himself to a very select few - mostly the OW and the guy friend he is living with. Thanks for adding your 2 cents in here and helping to clarify.<P>JBArn,<P>Your comments about F A's post - all the "I"s is interesting. And, agree that he probably wants things to work out, too. Like so many on this post, I always said in the past,I would never stay with my H if he cheated on me, and here I am....<P>F A,<P>Please go back and read the initial post on this thread. Steve showed me where my needs right now are actually the SAME as my H's, except with ME, instead of him, as the center of the universe.<P>Right now, I want my H to come running after ME, beg ME to forgive him, pledge his undying love and fidelity to ME, knock his socks off trying to be the best H in the world to ME, go 1,000% plus some more making this up to ME...ME, ME, ME, etc! SEE???? It's all about ME. Isn't that the converse of the affair right now, which is all about HIM??????<P>Neither of these attitudes - all about him nor all about me is healthy. Someway, we would need to get back to a more BALANCED relationship where we are both caring about each other and neither is being a doormat.<P>In order to get there, my H needs to DECIDE he wants to work on the marriage and he hasn't decided that yet.<P>You pose some good questions about doormat, self-respect, "winning by default" if the affair flops and why would anyone take an errant spouse back in general. I think the answers to these questions are personal and different for everyone.<P>FOR ME, I have been divorced already and know ther is no "perfect" relationship out there waiting for me or anyone else. People are human and life throws you curve balls when you aren't looking. I look back on my life with my H and kids and find it has been satisfying for me. Why did I screw it up by having an EA 2 years ago??? Through current counsleing I am identifying what lead me to make that mistake. I guarantee you I will NEVER repeat it again.<P>I still have very strong feelings for my H although I despise what he is doing. As long as I have feelings of love, I will try in PlanA or planB. As Distressed pointed out...this will resolve in time. Maybe I will stop loving him before his affair ends and file for the divorce. I do not know the future.<P>You have options, too. You can file for divorce and feel like once scorned, never again. You can try to rebuild with your W, but hold a grudge about it forever. You can try to rebuild with your W and truly try to forgive and build something better. You are lucky because your W is there. Maybe you are the type that wouldn't wait like so many of us do. That is a personal choice. I think it is less about self-respect than it is about POTENTIAL that we see. Although my H is doing nothing for US, I do see tremendous potential for us to reconcile. I know he is hard-hearted and unforgiving, but he will get over this in time. RIGHT NOW, I am willing to wait.<P>Sometimes I do feel a doormat. I am treating my H like a king and showing him my love while I am getting nothing back and the OW is having the time of her life at the expense of me and our children and grandchildren. As Distressed pointed out, that is why PlanA is meant to be temporary.<P>Then to planB as I continue to work on enjoying my life. I always have the option here at any point to say "Hey, I don't want to do this anymore and I am ready to quit." I have felt that way already, but it was brief and not sustained. When I get to that point and know it really is how I feel, I will move on it. I think alot is attitude - do I see myself as a victim or in control with choices?? In a sense, I am a victim because things are happening that I do not want to happen and I can not stop them. On the other hand, life ALWAYS causes things to happen that I don't want to happen and I can't stop them....bUT I can choose how I wish to ract to them. I am CHOOSING to hang around and wait some more. In that light, I feel empowered, not victimized, because I can always say to my H, "I am picking up my toys and not playing with you anymore."<P>Roll Me Away<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA,<P> Great thread!!!.....and thank you for sharing Steve's counseling. Btw, I've been counseling with him and I'm also a big "educator"! <P> Distressed,<BR> <BR> I agree that nothing can MAKE the betrayer stop the affair if they don't want to but by doing Plan B(after a good Plan A) they are forced to have all of their needs met by the OP and this can "pressure " the relationship (as Steve told me at one time).<P>FA,<P> I know what you mean about the self respect thing and I've struggled with all of that but as someone said you look at the "potential" . Plus when in an affair it's like the betrayer goes insane and that's not their real character....we all remember the good people they were (usually for a good many years) and feel like this affair "persona" is temporary....that's not really them. I doubt many would consider reconciliation with a spouse who always treated us as bad as during the affair.... <P>Merry Christmas all! LU

So you mean I shouldn't read a book and highlight the points my h needs to pay particular attention too? I know that I am trying to "educate" my h too and I need to stop. It's not my job to help him grow up, just to be here when he does.

Lu,<P><BR>Since you are also counseling with Steve, please advise. First are you and your H together? How are you curbing the urge to tell him everything you are learning???<P>Derby,<P>Steve told me that my H definitely needs to learn form this, but NOT FROM ME. The only way I can "teach" him anything is to point out everything he is doing wrong, his faults and weaknesses, etc. Big time love busters. Besides, and I KNOW this as a fact - H doesn't listen anyway. He is going to do this affair until the time comes when he doesn't want to anymore. Period. So, Why waste my time when not only do I not get the desired results, I am probably getting negative reactions instead, making me look worse in his eyes. No, don't read any more stuff to him...I have read enough to my H for everybody on the forum plus some! <P>Roll Me Away<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thank you RMA, I see a lot of my situation in your posts. I have been trying to educate my H, and have spent hours talking to him about where we went wrong, etc. I do think that my H listens, but it takes time. Now, though, after reading your post, I will stop. All our deep & meaningfuls leave me (and him) so drained that there isn't any energy left to try and enjoy each others company.<P>A couple of weeks ago I did a beautiful Plan A, and my H responded enthusiastically. Then the LB started and my H responded negatively. So, Plan A akin to dating is what is planned from now on.<P>One question that I have for all of you is this: If talking about reality, responsibilities, etc, is a love buster, how can any betrayed S get on with their life? My H walked out on me, our D, 2 dogs, 1 cat, a mortgage, bills, took our only car, etc. In order for me to make arrangements to get on with life, meet our finanacial obligations, meet my work commitments, have our D minded, etc, <B> I HAVE HAD TO DISCUSS THESE ISSUES WITH HIM </B> but have not gotten anywhere. I am still struggling daily and can only make ends meet for so long. Eventually, he either has to come to the party, sit down and make some plans that he will stick to, or I will be forced to turn to the law to protect myself. He sees this as taking out the big guns and is has threatened to be even more uncooperative then. Any thoughts on how to Plan A and still get on with life?<P>FA- <BR>If their first choice is the OP, and it doesn't work out, why would they come back to you? My H is my first choice, and guess what? I'm still trying to work it out in the face of such odds. I'm not letting an itty bitty affair get the best of my marriage. If S wanted the OP so bad, they wouldn't give up and come running to you. As such, you can't really be considered as second choice.<P>IF THEY GIVE UP THE OP BY CHOICE AND THEN RETURN TO YOU, YOU HAVE BECOME THEIR FIRST CHOICE. get it? Anyway, that's how I look at it.<P>Merry Xmas to all.<P>------------------<BR><B> <I> Black Heart </B> </I><BR>

Hi Desiree,<P>Well, I'm spending Christmas this year in sunny CA with my family. Just read through your entire post. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It has been SOOOO helpful to have both plans clarifed. <P>I am kinda/sorta in a Plan B (still have to write the formal letter, although I told him to his face that I didn't want any contact when he moved out), & I have seen some progress (I think). It's hard to tell if he is leveling with me or just still trying to straddle the fence. I have not initiated any contact with him. But, the last time I saw H (& I know there isn't supposed to be any contact but he showed up unannounced), he told me that he cannot stop thinking about me & the 'addiction' of the affair is lessening. I could tell he was definitely NOT happy. Then he sent me a Christmas card telling me he thinks about me all the time, & that I have "unjustly become a bystander while his life goes to hell". Perhaps, another sign that the affair isn't going as well as he expected? I still have not contacted him, & I did not send him a card.<P>So, now since I haven't done the formal Plan B letter yet, do you think I should stand my ground and not contact him, at all? I was thinking about the Plan B letter as being my next point of contact.<P>It's so very hard to know what to do.

This thing is growing. Any one reading here might also want to read Heartpain's thread on the way to the psychiatrist.<P>Blackheart,<P>I don't think you NEVER discuss things you need to. Certainly, you have to discuss the kids and the mortgage and bills and whatever. I think the point from Steve is that in my position - H in the active affair and moved out, I need to not discuss negative things unless absolutely necessary. My H and I have spend a lot of time talking about what happened and why. WE KNOW. What we don't know is the conclusion to this story. Really, my H doesn't need me to tell him he needs to make a choice and move on either way. He knows that. He has made a tentative choice of her, but then he was unsure and came here on Wednesday morning and told me he doesn't want a divorce. He doesn't want me to file and he isn't planning on filing. What more can I possibly say to convince him to come home....NOTHING. He either will want to or he won't and logic and books and printed threads from this site and other people's opinions - none of it matters. He has to decide and I need to give it all a big rest. <P>This isn't easy for me. As I better understand it all, I keep thinking I can tell him or show him something new that might make a difference and it doesn't really. H does listen to me and he does consider what I say and have learned. He has read everything I offered him to read. I asked his permission..."If you want to read such and such, I will print or copy, or lend you the book, etc" and he always says yes. But has he changed his actions???NOPE.<P>He is still mad as hell at me over the EA. he told me last week this is why he left and is having the affair. And, of course, now he is inlove with the OW and has to deal with that, too. So the big question is how does this all end up now that we KNOW????<P>As for how to PlanA and get on with your life - I asked Steve Harley this at the last session. His answer is - you don't really. You have to consider your life "on hold" while in PlanA. I think this is in regard to making a life for yourself and moving away from the marriage. In planA you are focused on identifying and meeting your S's needs. In planB, you are focused on yourself and that is when you are really working on getting on with your life. Hope this helps <P>sidney,<P>Having fun???? Hope so. Sounds like you are starting to get some response here. I am still praying for you!!!!!!! Merry Christmas<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi RMA -<P>Been off MB for awhile and wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas!!!!<P>Great thread....just skimmed it now but will come back and concentrate more fully......<P>One thing that I have tried to do...when speaking of "improvements" (educating?) - I put it that "I" am learning...etc.!!<P>I wonder if that is still considered LB if used in the context of my own revelations? And in talking about my own actions, habits, thoughts, etc?<P>Hmmmmm.....I will have to think on that!<P>HUGS and Merry XMas to you and your family!!!<P>Sheba