<small>[ April 06, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ali88:
<strong> Sorry for the delay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please don't think I am ripping into you. I am not. I just don't want you to get hurt even more. As I am still reading, the suspicions are still there. Not knowing is worse because there is nothing to heal from. At least I know and I can start to heal. Very long process for me. Not even one tenth there. But at least there is a chance.

I know you want to sooo bad to trust your H. But who doesn't? Would we marry our spouse's if there was no trust at the alter? Some might, but I trusted my H. 100% and I think most of us posters did too!
I am glad you are still posting. It is great therapy. But think about the questions if things are not found out! I hope I didn't miss something on one of the post above!
OK, dinner is calling for me to make! How much would a personal chef cost?

Ali! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

OK, I am going a little cooky here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Lost72 - I know you don't want to hear this, but I knew in my heart long before I had anything concrete. There were physical signs that I totally blew off because as Ali88 has pointed out over and over - you want to believe that your H loves you and you can trust him, but you can't always do that. For me the missing cell phone bills were the final straw that told me something was definitely going on. That may not seem like much to go on, but it is a start. Who is your H calling? The cell phone bill will show that. If you don't have a bill you can go online - that is how I found out they were going to my WS work address by the way. I know what you mean about the numbness (I read your other post) and unfortunately that is the easiest time - I was numb for 3 months, now the hurt is overwhelming. I'm so sorry that anyone ever has to feel this way!

Ali88 - I missed your posts! I know you were not ripping into me - just making sure I keep my head out of my butt. That is where it has been for a long time anyway. Right now I am simply working on how to improve my marriage, but still snoop (very hard to do when I'm so pissed at him). I think he knows about this site because I found a keylogger on my PC the other day. Let him find out what I think, but I have to be careful how I snoop now! He cancelled the credit card so there goes that! I would welcome any suggestions - email them to me at cw1234_638@hotmail.com - he does not have access to that and I only check it at work. Thanks for remembering me!

I actually called his cell phone carrier today to question why he wasn't getting detailed billing. Actually, I had to enter his number to even get a rep on the line (which I didn't want to do). Anyway, I was trying to be as general as possible, but the rep asked for the cell number, and a password. I told her I didn't know it (which I don't). So I asked a general question. Would a person have to request they no longer receive detailed billing, or could you just automatically stop it? She told me it depended on the plan, I told her I knew his plan, and she told me he was supposed to be getting it. She told me his password was his birthday, so I have her that. I kind of felt she was empathizing with me,like she knew where I was coming from. I asked her if there were any notes stating he requested to have the detailed billing stopped, she said no. Does that necessarily mean anything? She started it back up again, without my requesting. I know she felt me. I don't open his cell bills, but I have looked them over. Of course, I see "strange" numbers, but they're all strange. I don't know who he's talking to. I know he's real quick about turning the phone off when he's home, though. I don't turn my phone off until I go to bed. He has a lock function on his phone, and it can't be undone without a numeric code. I don't know what it is, even though I've tried to crack it several times.

I never trusted him 100%. I don't think it's possible to trust anyone that fully.

No Problem.

I just know what it feels like! I was in denial about my husband for so long. I had my friends and sister listen to the message from the OW from his cell phone. We were like OK? Maybe he just found a friend. Then I thought after a few more of them. Wait a minute! He told me about every friend and female friend that he made down there. Why is he keeping this one to himself? Then the untimate ice breaker that made me go on a man hunt message "I had a great time last night, I hope there will be a next" And the way she said it! She might as well had an orgasm while saying it!
The numbness eventually wears off! Then a whole lot of emotions just tidal wave in. And when it hits, it hits hard! My therapist says I am still in the anger stage! Which could go on for a very long time! So, what I mean is if there is suspicion going on...you will feel like you are holding your breath for a long time. Not healthy. And you will really start to resent your H. more because there is no trust! And you become paranoid!
But what I don't get is why your H.is being extra nice? Could it be guilt???? OK just a thought!

Ali

When did I say my husban's being extra nice? I don't remember saying that, but now that you mentioned it, he has been. He gave me money last week without me asking, and he's been giving me money whenever I ask for it. He never questions like he used to, just hands it over. I think this is strange. I think he has some motive behind it, then I start thinking maybe it's the paranoia. But, it creates suspicion if he's not nice. Little does he know, he's creating it by being nice (in that regard). You see, my husband is not affectionate, doesn't give of his time. He has literally told me at one point that he'd rather give his money than his time. When we had a fall out a couple of months ago, I basically told him we had to do everything differently, and the first thing he could say was he didn't want his social life to be affected. He still wanted to hang out with the guys, get drinks when he wanted, etc. That was another flag. Duh! Your hanging out with the guys/not spending quality time with your wife is what is contributing to the failure of your marriage!! Hello!! I didn't argue, though. But I heard what he said. I hear what he's saying when he says nothing at all. He didn't call me at all today, yet allowed himself to act an *** tonight, stormed out and left. He IS guilty of something, and it will eat him alive. Good. There's no need in asking questions about him being unfaithful anymore, especially if he's going to continue denying it.

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Actually Ali88 - I'm not really in denial, I tell myself things to make the pain go away for a while. It's difficult to describe how I'm feeling right now because it changes at the drop of a hat. I hate him, I love him, I want him to go away, I want him to stay, I'm afraid he will leave and on an on.... It is like you say, a whole tidal wave of emotions. Yesterday I actually felt great for about 4 hours then it hit again and I couldn't stop crying. Weird!

He has been great and is right there to hold me when I need it. He is scared too I think. I don't think he realized what the aftermath of this would do. And I still wonder if it is over. I feel like it must be because he is scared I will leave and he is definitely spending more time at home. He tells me he loves me all the time and always wants to hold my hand. I guess I really can't trust him, but he certainly wasn't doing those things when the affair was in full swing. Thoughts????

Well, it could be over and he is now regretting it and totally wants to keep it a secret. But I know how it goes with the ups and downs. It still happens with me. Like right now! H. came home and I feel nothing but anger towards him. And it makes me sick to feel this way. It makes me sick that I can't trust him.
You need a foundation for your marriage. What would you do if he came out it and said he had an affair? Would you really leave him? Like I said before, it is a lot easier to start with no trust and the truth rather than no trust and a lie?

Ali

I'd say this is pretty good evidence that your husband has been lying to you:

"I am a terrible faker and I hate it"

and the comments about making love indicate a Physical Affair. Those letters are awful - they gave me knots in my stomach just thinking about it - you poor thing. I wouldn't read them anymore if I were you - spend time and energy on things that make you feel good and happy.

I started Anti-D's right after I found out about my H's A and they have helped enormously. I didn't realize how bad I felt until I felt better.

Your H says he wants to work on your M, but he cannot do that if he still in the fog of the A. And in order to get out of that, he has to have No Contact with the OW.

I would definitely recommend counseling. Even if the A is over, whatever issues existed between you or with your H that led him to cheat are still there, which means another A, or a recurrence with the OW could happen at any time. If your H doesn't want to go to MC, you should at least consider IC for yourself, so that you have someone objective to talk to (other than the folks on this board).

<small>[ April 09, 2004, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Travelling Girl ]</small>

Hi TG

The problem with the NC letter is that he works with her! And the problem with that is that he cannot quit and find another job just like that?

She needs to get him to be open with this. He continues to lie to her and that is what's eating her up! I know what you mean! That letter gave me pits in my stomache too. SG, put the letter away! By the way, did you ever show him the letter? And how did he weasel his way out of that? I think I asked you that question but can't recall. Just one of those days.

OK taking my computer to have it's brain fixed. I'll miss you guys. You all have a great Easter!
Or holiday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully, I can get this back soon. At $50 bucks an hour, it better only take 15 minutes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ April 09, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Ali88 and Traveling Girl - I do try not to read the letters, but when my doubts about whether I should believe his lies come up I reread them just to refocus on how much he is capable of. He weaseled his way out of the letters by not reading them of course and told me they were a fantasy at first then an idea for a possible book. I'm not allowed to refer to them as letters.

Of course I know he had a PA - how could he make that stuff up?! And the lies are eating me alive. I'd say that is what will eventually kill our M. Like my sisters said "Why can't he be a man and just admit it???" I do kind of think it is still going on - why end it now? If he can convince me it didn't really happen so much the better. He knows I'm watching now though so he is verrry careful. I just don't know how to catch him. My sisters said that I should hire a PI, but he controls the finances so how could I?

You have figured out he is having an A. So don't worry about catching him, and stay firmly in Plan A.

I wasted so much time trying to prove what I knew. WH just continued to lie and get sneakier. He had an explanation for everything, even motel bills from during the day when he was supposed to be at work.

So since you need to do a good Plan A, start it and don't obsess. The truth will come out, don't worry.

I am so sorry for you. What you are going through is pure hell.

I don’t come here much any more. I spend most of the time when I do visit lurking on the recovery board. I just want to tell you it will get better. But, I was where you are for almost four months last year. It may get even worse for a while, but it does get better.

My WW had a ten-year affair with a co-worker. It even survived the first time I found out about it five years ago. She lied her way through MC back then to keep it alive. She only stopped seeing the OM while I was suspicious. The A started right back up as soon as I felt safe again.

I put it behind me back then but, bam, five years later it comes back worse than before. Half my marriage turned out to be based on lies. I just could not accept it. I denied the evidence and made excuses for her. I lost 30 pounds. Work suffered. I went on antidepressant meds, (which I recommend, they do help smooth out the roller coaster.)

When I found out again last year it had never ended after all (through an email like yours, that hurt so bad I still cannot read it again), she denied, denied, denied. For three months, she looked me in the eye more than once and said, “I love you and I will never lie to you,” and then lied through her teeth to me. She even cried genuine tears while telling me blatant lies. Sound familiar? As you wrote, suspecting the truth just makes the lies even more hurtful.

The ancient Sumerians had a concept of hell where the gods would leave you with the knowledge that you had offended them but remove all knowledge of what you had done. You knew you were in hell for doing something really bad but no longer knew what it was. That is what I felt all those months. I was in hell and didn’t know why.

In one of your posts you said, “What a mess.” Amazing, I used that line a dozen times in my journal. BTW, you might consider starting a journal. It helps a lot. Put most of the LB’s in there.

I highly recommend IC. My councilor finally said, “Trust your gut. You have the absolute right, and even the obligation to you and to her, to decide if you can live with her not knowing the truth. If not, tell her you need the whole truth or you will have to leave the relationship.” Saying this to my wife was one of the most difficult things I have ever done (the other was confronting the OM after she admitted their A). One week later she finally confessed and moved out for three months.

Be prepared for a lot of anger on his part. The WS often tries to manipulate your emotions. I can’t count the number of times my W said she was giving up, contacting a lawyer, it was my entire fault, I’m too controlling, she can’t even have friends, she cannot do all the counseling any more, she’s just not a good wife, and on and on. It is part of their internal denials and defenses. Transferring guilt they cannot yet handle.

If you can convince your H, you should attend a Retrouvaille retreat weekend http://www.retrouvaille.org/ . That is what finally started our recovery. We use the communication skills learned there to improve our marriage every day. Also, WW is now in IC, which is helping her a lot. She even sent an apology/NC letter to OM’s wife. We are doing better than I ever expected we could.

I have a question about H controlling your finances. What state do you live in? If in a community property state, he cannot do this. You have legal rights here that seem to be getting ignored in your marriage. Don’t be a doormat. Talk to a lawyer yourself. Then tell your H. You may be amazed at his sudden turnaround when you show some spine.

I also turned it all over to God. That helped more than anything. Trust me in this.

I am praying for you, your family and your H.

T

Yes, Thos is right, a journal is a good idea. I also started one right after I found out about my H's A, and it has helped a lot to be able to write things down that I would have said to him in the past, and get them out of my system. At our MC session this week I learned that he felt smothered by me in the past, because he felt like I depended on him to be my best friend and meet all of my emotional needs, and overloaded him with information every day. Now it all goes into the Journal and I don't say things I might regret later, and he feels like he can breathe. I just heard this for the first time and we've been married 11 years.
How long have you been married, and do you have children? Is there anyone you can confide in about the A - friend, relative, or minister/priest/pastor?
Hope your Easter was OK.

Another good reason to journal is to help you see through your own fog. The BS is in a fog of emotions, too. A journal can give you hope over time. I look back in my journal and can see that things are actually improving for me, independent of our M. Entries tend to be shorter, futher apart and generally more positve (with some exceptions) now. I would not be able to detect my own improved well-being if I did not have a record of where I have been when I could barely think straight.

Thanks for all the posts over the weekend. I appreciate all of the advice and words of support. Quite frankly though, I am growing weary of all the lies and dishonesty from him. I don't believe that he has ended it and there is not room in my marriage for a third person. I'm pretty much thinking about ways to free myself from this situation - meaning he may have to leave. All I see on this website is pain and heartache from all the BS's even after the affair ends and I can't help but think is it worth it? He is the one that went looking for someone else, he is the one who lied and deceived me, he is the one spending joint assets on someone else, he is the one depriving his children of their father, he is the one who destroyed our specialness, and I'm not sure I want him anymore. Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone so selfish and so dishonest. I love him, but I don't know if I can ever forgive him for putting me through all of this.

SG -
You are right - you ARE the injured party. One of the reasons I didn't throw my H out (aside from the fact that we have 3 kids) is that I kept reading that Divorcing seems like an easy out, but in the long run is far more painful than working through your marital issues.
Those issues just tend to turn up in the next R.
Why don't you take a look at the BB at the Key Bridge Discussion website (Emily Brown) - I found many inspirational stories there from BS's who said their marriages now are better than they ever were prior to the A.
In MC I have been learning that I did many things that angered or hurt my H without meaning to, and that led him to believe that he was entitled to love elsewhere. I am not excusing him, I am just saying that I thought it was all his fault in the beginning, and now I am realizing that I also contributed to problems in our R (even though I thought things were fine).
Try to read about A's and get to see a counselor before you make a rash decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I see on this website is pain and heartache from all the BS's even after the affair ends and I can't help but think is it worth it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SpouseGuess - I, and most of us, can relate to what you are expressing in this quote. There IS a lot of pain and heartache associated with adultery and there is no escaping it.

Having said that, we also often bring on more pain than we need to, especially when we are very vulnerable and are not yet really into recovery of our marriage.

When you are in recovery I would strongly suggest that you move your posting to the Recovery Forum and DO NOT visit or read anything on the Just Found Out or General Questions II forums. The reason is that they are both awash with emotions and you will tend to internalize other's pain and heartache. That drags you down and leads to doubting and excessive fear about the future. Recovery alone takes and average of two years, so there is no "quick fix."

But let me also reassure you that many have made it through recovery and, in looking back at all the hard work, pain, heartache, and fear, have said that "yes, it was worth it."

It is even "worth it" to those who tried but failed and the marriage ended in a divorce. The reason is simple. Even in those cases the one who "tried" knows that they did their best. We all know that we cannot control someone else's actions or decisions, but we can control our own.

This terrible time may be "helped" if you think of it along the lines of the marriage vow "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health." This is definitely the "worst" of times and the mental idiocy associated with an affair can be thought of as a mental "sickness." To begin the recovery process it takes ONE of the spouses to stay and "fight for the other one even when things look dire, perhaps even hopeless." Were it a physical health problem most of us would fight and support and even help with all of our spouse's bodily function needs because we love them....even if they are temporarily incapable of returning that love. We do it out of honor for ourselves, our commitments, our love and respect for the sanctity of marriage.

I hope that helps. I have not read this entire thread, but I got the impression that you now believe that your husband is having an affair. I also got the impression that he is denying it and that you have not confronted him with undeniable proof. That must occur at some point before you can even begin the process of recovering your marriage. Print out the emails, etc., whatever proof you have and confront him with it when you feel it is time to stop the lies and you are ready to deal with the hard problems that lay ahead.

It IS hard, but it must be done. Just as it is hard and painful to set a broken bone and that it takes time to recover, the same is true for this problem. It must first be exposed and recognized by all parties. Affairs are very hard to sustain in the "light of day." They thrive in the dark and in secret.

But, and this is a big "but," you have to decide that your love for him overrides the pain and hard times and that you are willing to commit to the long haul, not some "quick fix."

Even now, 2 years after our d-day, I rarely visit the JFO forum for much the same reason you were talking about. The emotional pain is at it's most intense at the beginning and most of us have a "caring bone" in our bodies and we can easily overidentify with the pain. That, too, is detrimental to our own recovery.

God bless.