My wife and I have been married for 18 years. I found out last monthe that she has been having an A with someone she works with. The situation is strange in which she works in So Cal. and the OM is in No. Cal. Thay shared phone conversations throughout the summer until she atteneded a meeting in No. Cal. in which she drove up (a good 7 hour drive) the weekend prior and stayed a friend one day, then checked into the hotel the next. That's when the encounter happened. She said they just had dinner and went for ice cream afterwards. Knowing that they had daily phone conversations, I planted a voice recorder in her car. Boy, some of the things I heard ripped my heart out. How could she have done this to me and our children? She said it wasn't planned, but that probably what they all say. I don't believe that an A "just happens".<p>This is the first time I've ever had to deal with anything like this, and must admit it's hardest thing I've ever had to face in my life. The hurt is beyond compare.<p>Anyway, I've decided to stay with her and try to overcome this trajedy in my life. It's going to be hard. Where do I find the strength to carry on?<p>Yesterday I stumbled across the MB site and spent a great deal of time reading through it. It's encouraging to know that couples have actually survived infidelity. It gives me hope.<p>I know my wife still has contact with th OM through voicemails and phone calls. I guess the good thing in my favor is the distance between them, and the fact that he's married and has a child, so the physical contact is not there. However the voicemails and calls have to stop, it is after all contact with her lover.<p>She works long hours and has a nasty commute (anyone in the LA are knows about that), so last night I sent her an email stating my intentions to stay and try to overcome her A. I mentioned that I would do everything in my power to meet her emotional needs without being judgemental and disrespectful. I also stated that all contact with the OM must stop completely in order to me the chance to prove myself fairly.<p>I'm hoping this works, and that I have the strength to pull this off.<p>Anyone willing to give any advice, please do as I'm in need of it right now.<p>Thanks, Rick<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Echalon ]<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Echalon ]</p>

Dear Echalon,<p>You better believe it. She is living in la la land or fantasy land right now. It is good that you are already educate yourslef about MB. As a welcome let me share some important links to you:<p>General Welcome for All New Builders
Acronyms, Smilies, UBB Codes
Plan A misapplication by Distress
WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses
50 signs your spouse is having an affair
Infidelity Kit<p>My 2¢ - do not demand her to stop, it is hard but let it go. She should stop it on her own will as a foundation for a recovery, for now let it go. Ask her to show your objection but LISTEN and try to be on her side and see what is that she is not happy about you or about M. This will be you the base for plan A. Plan A is not to fulfill EN !!!. Plan A is to do self check up and show changes or abilities to change, it is on you. If she let you fulfill EN that is very good but it is not the main objective.<p>I'm hoping this works, and that I have the strength to pull this off.
You will be amazed what human being could endure and we are here to lend you supports. Medication will help too if it starts taking physical toll on you.<p>You have a good chance since they live apart and OM is married. However as you know A has to be exposed to let A dies naturally !!!. It is hard on you but it must be !, even to the OM's wife asap.<p>Hang in there - 1 Cor 13:4-7

Redhat,<p>The A has been exposed. She admitted to it after confronting her about and admitting I had the proof. The OM's wife does not know about the A. Are you saying she should be made aware of it ASAP? If so, how? Thanks for the advice. I'll try not to demand. It's hard, but with people like yourself it's nice to know there's support out there.<p>Rick

Echalon,
That is called the D-day or discovery day ... A has to be expose open in public eyes or day light. In my case in WW's family and closest freinds.<p>Do you have OM name ? we could find out the phone# and also even the wife name. There are a lot of service will help you out, email me if you need help on snooping. Beside I live in SF Bay area, I could help. Once we get the phone# and or address it is up to you how you want to tell her. You could call her and explain the A. I wish I could be informed when A starts so that damage is not too deep and become "soulmate".

Redhat,<p>Are you suggesting I contact the OMW? Boy, talk about uncomfortable... yet gratifying, I don't know if I should. My wife and I are opening up, talking and having great sex since the A has been exposed. However, phone contact still continues between her and the OM. She has mentioned the notion of calling the OMs wife herself, because she says she doesn't want to carry the entire burden of guilt alone, and feels she should know. Is it recommended she contacts the OMs wife? Should I trust her to do it? And how would I even confirm she made contact with OMW. I feel that if I did and my wife found out it was me it create a bad situation. Please advise.<p>Echalon

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Echalon:
<strong>Redhat,
Are you suggesting I contact the OMW? Boy, talk about uncomfortable... yet gratifying, I don't know if I should.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Turn the table in her position, do you want to be notified ?. I do. You don't have to be the messanger, could be one of your family or relative or send a letter to her.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
My wife and I are opening up, talking and having great sex since the A has been exposed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good progress, nothing beat an open line of communication. Remember no LB !!!.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
However, phone contact still continues between her and the OM. She has mentioned the notion of calling the OMs wife herself, because she says she doesn't want to carry the entire burden of guilt alone, and feels she should know. Is it recommended she contacts the OMs wife?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, what is she up to her sleeves ?. Push OM so that she could have OM ?. Let her if she wants to<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Should I trust her to do it? And how would I even confirm she made contact with OMW.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't but she is your wife you know her better. You could ask her to be around when she call, no demand but asking. Meanwhile keep snooping, bug your car and your phone for your own protection and keeping progress on her. But as old saying "be carefull what you ask for ...", it could hurt you. Whatever you find out is not your W is talking, she is in "the fog". You did good with VOR. Here is a link to buy the recorder for your home phone.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I feel that if I did and my wife found out it was me it create a bad situation. Please advise.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Again you do not have to be the messager.<p>Beside getting busy on those, have you gone through your M and find out what W is not happy about the relation or you ?. Is she open to counseling ? If she does, make sure that the MC is practicing MB or call MB for conseling. Have you read about plan A ?, specially LB ?. Get His Need Her Need book & Surviving an affair, read it together w/ your W.

Redhat,<p>Your support is greatly appreciated, more than you know. <p>Over the Thanksgiving holiday, Wednesday to be exact, on her way home she left 2 voicemails to the OM stating that she wanted a relationship with the OM, and that she was "In Love" with him. I confronted her with it and an ugly scene was created. A LB, I presume! Is this common for W to still react this way about the OM even after talking about the A and having great sexual encounters with me? Should I have not brought up the voicemails at all, and just held my feelings in no matter much it hurt? I'm confused and want to the right thing. This is VERY difficult to deal with and to understand (I know. Don't even try to understand it!).<p>BTW, she told her mother about the A during the holiday as well. Does this have any significance?<p>Echalon

Redhat,<p>Also in relpy to your question about W open to conseling. No, she's not open to fact what so ever, and she's made fact STRONGLY known. She's very strong willed, and resents the idea of anyone telling her about herself or what to do.<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Echalon

Rick,<p>I agree with Redhat that your W's interest in telling OM's W about the A is to manipulate the situation in hopes that OM's W will end their M and then OM would be free to be with her. Many BSs find out about the A from the OP for that exact reason, an attempt to disentangle the object of their desire from their M.<p>It seems your W is unwilling to end contact w/OM, so it is now up to you to decide whether or not you want to do plan A while awaiting the natural death of the A.<p>As a BS myself, I would feel obligated to contact OM's wife to notify her of reality; however, many times they will not believe it and stay in denial, but at least it wouldn't be on my conscience anymore. And Redhat is correct, OM's wife's knowledge of the A will rock OM's boat and may hasten the end of the A should OM decide to work on HIS M.<p>It is up to you to decide about both of these issues and what you can and cannot live with. A daunting task, but we're here to help you through it. As many have said, plan A is not for the faint of heart. It is probably the hardest thing you will ever do, especially if she continues the A, but there is a time limit, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.<p>Personally, I would continue all monitoring and spying (and hopefully you didn't reveal your methods so that she can do a better job of covering up), but stop confronting her with the evidence. Just do it so that YOU can stay in reality and know exactly what you are doing and why--be able to make informed decisions about your actions.<p>It would be really helpful to read Surviving An Affair, but if she is in a frame of mind not to take advice of any kind, I wouldn't push the book on her. Read it yourself so you have a plan of action to follow and can feel some control in this situation.<p>In addition to the books available on this website, other helpful books are Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson, Divorce Busting and The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis (www.divorcebusting.com), and Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw. These books provide a one-sided approach to save your M since most of the time only one spouse is willing to work on it--since you're here, that means you're probably that "lucky" one, just as many of us here are.<p>You WILL make it through this. You will survive the pain, and if you educate yourself and apply what you learn, you may save your M as well.

Echalon,<p>This is the hardest part of BS right after D-day, we get confused, hurt like hell, angry, hopeless and sometimes get into big D. Since you are willing to hang in here, you will be in emotional roller coaster and you need to focus on what you need to get done. Read, read and read about plan A/B and LB then the rest of MB concept. You have to learn to let it go, all info. from snooping should be kept away from WW, only use it for the purpose of checking your progress of plan A and accesing the damage. I have WW's pin on cell phone & detail phone bill, I use it only to check how much trouble I am against. You have to let A dies naturally and you better get ready to catch her. You should do nothing to interfere. A has to be expose in the open since it will shake them a bit out of their fantasy. Let others judge WW not you.<p>Most A starts with unfullfill EN plus many LB. So first thing is learn not to LB ... LB by WW's definition not yours. Try to remember WW's complaints and try to separate in two buckets, facts and excuses or reasoning. Work on the facts ... those are you basis of plan A. Second try to guess WW's EN, top five and order are not significant (you will find out when you apply them) learn to fill in if WW allows you too. All you are doing in plan A is not to get her back or to influence her. You are working on all the issues cause by you in your M from WW's point of view. It is hard to let go but you are in better position than most of us. WW only could do EA and PA is very difficult. You still have SF from her and she probably willing to let you other EN and you are visiting the right URL, MB.<p>Get busy and keep posting ... and help other as you are a bit comfortable in this forum.

Redhat,<p>As always your words of encouragment are appreciated (you too Conqueror). I think prgress is being made, but I've read and been told "don't expect much". I'm confused as to some of the behavior from W though. We have made love quite frequently lately, mostly initiated by her. Something that's been quite rare our entire M. I've just been affectionate without trying to be smothering or clingy (which says at times I am). We hug & cuddle and sleep in each others arms. During lovemaking Monday night I had a very moving experience in which at one point we looked into each others eyes and I saw a look of love and desire I hadn't seen in a very long time. Is she reaching out? I'm unsure of what's happening. I know there's a long way to go here, but I didn't expect this. Whoa! My monitoring has not dicovered any voicemails to OM, but I haven't been able to put voice recorder in her car due to her long hours of work and I can't gauge a good time to set it's timer function. Unsure if contact with OM is till happening, I think it's slowed if anything. We have short conversations throughout our busy days just to check in and say hi. I don't bring up the A or anything negative, If she wants to talk about it I just listen.<p>Any couching is much appreciated...<p>Rick

Sorry meant to say "coaching". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Rick,<p>I am proud of you and you are making a very good progress.<p>I saw a look of love and desire I hadn't seen in a very long time. Is she reaching out? I'm unsure of what's happening.
This is what happens when fog clear up, but not go away yet. You will be riding this kind of ride up and down many times. Be patience and if clingy help her out, do it. You are making a huge progress.<p>I know there's a long way to go here, but I didn't expect this. Whoa! My monitoring has not dicovered any voicemails to OM, but I haven't been able to put voice recorder in her car due to her long hours of work and I can't gauge a good time to set it's timer function.
You could get a 12 hours recorder, put it in her trunk w/ either remote or small mic. Do you have access to her cell phone or cell phone bill ?. If you have access to her cell phone, most models have call log ... you might be luck to find the pin that way ... AT&T has a web site that you could view the bill online, with the info you have you could see it.<p>Unsure if contact with OM is till happening, I think it's slowed if anything. We have short conversations throughout our busy days just to check in and say hi. I don't bring up the A or anything negative, If she wants to talk about it I just listen.
Good job, now what you have to do is also listen to her issues in M. Work on those issues and tackle them one at the time, some are not an issues but a way for her to rationalize A. She might told you long before A, dig in in the past.

You're right about the roller coaster ride. She's been very careful in tyring to keep me from getting any information regarding her contact with the OM. She's been clearing her cell phone log for some time now, until yesterday when I discovered a dialed call to the OMs cell phone, the way normally contact each other. When I discover things like this I really try my best to keep things under wrap, but it's very difficult for me. I don't know how others can do it. I feel as though I'm inflicting pain on my self by monitoring her, and when something is discovered it becomes hard to me to be around her and she notices my change in attitude. How can I keep my feeling in check? What can I do to keep from creating these LBs? I thought things we going well. A while ago, not long after D-Day I sent her an email telling her I wanted to make the M work, and what I was willing to do to make her happy, but that she had to stop all contact the OM in order for me to do what I had to. She was upset with the email and dumped it, feeling as though I presented her with demands and ultimatums, which I guess I did, but how was I to tell her I wasn't going to tolerate the A? I know this is going back a little, but I feel the need to give a little history. What am I to do if she says she can't commit to helping me reconcile our M?<p>I hate this roller coaster. I just want it to stop!

When I discover things like this I really try my best to keep things under wrap, but it's very difficult for me. I don't know how others can do it.
Grined you teeth & vent in here ... secondly how is your plan A ?. Do you have a plan ?. Work on it and do it.<p>You give her the ultimatum when you are done w/ plan A and that is plan B for. For now, tell her that you love her but you hate on what she is doing right now (A) and you'll wait as long as you can. Do not intefere w/ A by making her gulity or intentional intefering, let it go such that WW has "no excuses" about you to have A.

Echalon,<p>You do have soo much in your corner now. Use the principles here and do your best. That's all we do have control over. The distance thing is what we have in common. My H had his OW three states away. Seven hours by drive. Don't think it has been so convient, but can make the secrecy and getaways exciting. Funny thing, it does in fact get in the way and I think their fling may be over. Fling? I think I am overstating this as they've seen each other a year now. Read my above post for info. Let it die the natural death it should.. There are always a few exceptions, but with you here and doing MB principles positive results should begin soon. They may start off tiny, like with mine, but they are small victories that lead to huge success. Congratulations on your decision to choose the path of love and go the harder road. I will pray for you and want you to know that you should get a Christian counselor to take care of you. There will indeed be times when you will get angry. Major LB can come out of unresolved anger. I have had despair/anger/depression revolving door and want you to know that counseling and physician have greatly helped lower the bar on how great I once suffered. It is getting less, but not without pain. Do what I should have done 5 months ago. Don't wait. Oh, and pray, pray pray..God has carried me when I have falllen. You don't have to pay him anything, and when you want counseling, just go to Proverbs or any book in the Bible for wisdom. Got a NIV to break all the thee and thus and whosoever's down to plain talk for me. Sometimes when i am truly despairing, I pray a chapter from Psalms aloud. David had alot of burdens on his back and his prayers can work even thousands of years in the future for us today. Pain and betrayal know no limit of time. Keep your armor on and go on with the good fight. We're in your corner and know that you will work on taking each day as it comes and do it your very best. God bless you.

Not Peachy,<p>Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I've read your posts as well and can relate to what you're going through. Even though you've had a much harder time at it than myself. My issues hale in comparison, but a pain all BSs share none the less. I hope and pray (I'm not very religeous, but spiritual) that we all can learn from each other during these trying times in our lives.<p>Redhat,<p>I've had what I feel is another progressive weekend, and feel the need to share with you and all who read these posts. <p>We had another weekend of closenes, cuddling & beautiful lovemaking. While I was out grocery shopping on Sunday (yes, I do groceries, cook, clean & care for children as well!), my W picked up and started to read my copies of HNHN & Surviving an A, which I keep in plain view on my side of the bed. She had somewhat of a mixed review, one thumb up, one thumb down. As mentioned in previous posts my W is against the idea of counseling or anyone in the profession for that matter. She has bad memories and a bad taste in her for mouth because of her experinces with them. A little history this time might shed some light. Forgive me if I get a little lenghtly.<p>My wife lead a turbulent childhood in which she was physically abused and taken advantage of (if ya know what I mean.)by what was supposed to be friends of the family, not by parents though. Her father left when she was very young, at the tender age of around 8. He was a compulsive gambler and an abusive H. The family left Indiana for California with nothing more than the clothes on their back and very little money. Her mother remarried to a man 20 years older who also became abusive, but in his later years saw the day of light and straightend out. In order to keep this shorter I'll fast forward a bit. Prior to and during high school she spent time in foster homes and on her own as an uncontested minor. When her and I met she had made her way back into her family, and overcome other adversities in her life to become a loving and generous person, some qualities which attracted me to her from the very beginning. She's held a job with same company for nearly 25 years, and is well repected by peers, subordinates and the management team which she is part of. Now at 41 years of age she feels unattractive (which is definately not the case), if you ask anyone who knows her, especially men, they'll tell you she's a very beautiful woman. Even though she gets compliments on a daily basis, she feels differently when naked in front of the mirror. She also feels that prior to our M she didn't get the chance to really do other things like going out with girlfriends, dating, etc. She doesn't really know who she is, something else I'm sure attributed to the A.<p>I was able to find out more about her problems with our M. The lack of conversation on my part is a biggie. I think that's why the OM is so appealing, 99% of the A has taken place during phone conversations. Also she say's I was never there for her, or asked about much of her past. Her past was never a big issue with me, but I guess it is to her, and my knowing it is of imortance to her.<p>As far as the OM goes, I have mixed feelings. She say's she needs time to "work it out", "needs some space" and will find a way to "deal with the situation". She says I will be the first to know when she's come to decision how she'll work it out. She resents the OM for telling her things that she believed (I don't know what that is however), and kicks herself for falling in to a trap. I'm still mulling over the idea of exposing the A to the OMW. I know it would possibly hasten the beginning of the end of the A, but I don't want to jeopardize any progress made so far. Since her and the OM have to deal with each over the phone to resolve work issues from time to time I don't think an end to A will ever be 100%. I hope that not's the however. I would love to hear from anyone who has dealt with this scenario and been successful. According to the Harley's without complete separation it's extremely difficult.<p>She still hasn't told me she wants to make the M work with me, that she needs to deal with her internal issues first before thinking about a relationship with anyone. Since she has all the other baggage to deal with, not just the A, but self issues I need to be patient. I guess I should just continue with the affection and zero LBs, and hopefully I might hear what I've longed to hear, even prior to our M - "I'm in love with you, Rick!"<p>My wife loves this time of year, she's a Christmas fanatic. She gets very emotional. I hope I can play on those emotions to help her during these times, and make great progress.<p>I've been working on my self issues in the meantime, trying to keep LBs out of the M, taking pride in my appearance, and listening intently with lots of eye contact to what she's got to say. If anything I like the person I'm becoming. Change can be a good thing in light of a situation involving an A.<p>Later,

Rick,
I am glad you made so much progress. Just be patience, patience, patience and meanwhile you make your self irresistable [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Forget about there is A at all for now, she will tell you when she is ready. A has to end for your M to survive and to rebuild lost love, one way or another, three is a crowd. OMW has to know, it is cruel to hide information like this, the A w/ your W makes it your bussiness !. Second, when the time come no contact has to be in place, transfer to diff. division or change company all together. W has to show wanting to work on M too, not now but when the time come (plan B) she has to choose. W has to make consession to protect your feeling and to protect her weakness thus protecting your M. For now enjoy every moment and cherish "new you" w/ W.<p>Keep us posted.

Monday night W came home late again, her job's a pain. Since I work from home most of the time I have to play Mr. Mom. I don't have a problem with that since I love my children, and it fills the need of Domestic Support. My W really appreciates it. When she got home it was late, but we sat on the couch and she just started talking about certain aspects of the A, how she was lead to believe certain things from the OM that didn't come to be (whatever it was I'm glad it didn't). She also said she felt so used and really frustated, so out of character, and feels the need to "get back at him", and wasn't sure what to do, I only listened and told her what I would do (without trying to straighten her out or force her), and that would be to expose the A to OMW and end all contact. Since she read that part of Surviving an Affair she's still not up on the idea, but I think she'll come to realize it's pretty much a proven theory. I was asked not get involved on that side. I only hope she doesn't get in over her head. She also asked me why someone would have an A with someone and then have nothing to do with them after they've been intimate. My only answer to that was that the OM was only after one thing, casual sex without commitment. She didn't like that, but the way I look it at that's probably true, the OM has gone out on his W before. Well, anyway I'll keep plugging in. I've kept my emotions in check lately, especially after discovering a call to OM on her cell phone log from last night.<p>Rick

Rick,
You are doing good and I think Peachy, Orchid & my prayer has been partially answered for you. I think it is your blessing that OM LB'ed. OM will help to kill the A [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Just hang in there and be ready for A to die. Did your WW read HNHN ?. Keep plan A'ng her, guess what is her EN's and try to fill in. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]