New to MB. Need advice/Help, thoughts, things to do etc.<p>I am 33 years old my wife is 29 years we do not have any children.<p>Me and my wife are married for 5 years and dated 2 years before the marriage total 7 years.<p>She just confessed to me about her A with a friend about 5 weeks ago and we are going thru a hell of a time. Though this A (PA/EA) started in Jan 2000 she has met him only for a day (the guy is overseas) than she met him again in Jan 2002 for a day and third time in March 2002 a day. Other times they were exchanging e-mails and were on the phone lot of hours.<p>I am willing and would like our marriage to be restored but unfortunately she is not ready yet and is in a stage of withdrawal. (this withdrawal is from last 6 months but I did not know the reason until she confessed 5 wks ago)<p>We are seeing a local counselor for last 5 weeks separately once a week, she is not ready for counseling together. <p>By the way the affair is over the guy is not interested anymore and my wife is struggling to put a closure to it.<p>Right now she says she has no feeling for me and as soon as she get that back she will work on the marriage, <p>I have done everything possible and exhausted every avenue and need your advice if there is anything else I could do. <p>WS moved out 7 weeks ago that leaves me in Plan B, we talk on the phone sometimes, meet for Lunches or dinner rarely but things are the same, she is still in the FOG. Any guess how long does it take to get out of this fog, I recently found out that she is still emailing OM but not sure whether he is responding. I have not confronted yet because that will be a LB. <p>I certainly need advice and help its taking its toll every single minute, I don't know how long I can take it.<p>The Lion

TheLion:<p>To be in plan B you should have plan A'd for a couple of months.<p>A real plan B is only carried out when your WW has not come out of the fog and your remaining love for her is so dangerously low that it is practically gone. In plan B, the BS gives the WS a letter basically stating that even though there is still love and a willingnes to work on rebuilding the marriage, the pain that the WS is causing is too great and in order to protect and not loose the remaining love left for WS, THE BS IS GOING TO STOP ALL CONTACT WITH THE WS UNTIL THE WS ENDS THE AFFAIR AND IS SERIOUS ABOUT REBUILDING THE MARRIAGE. In plan B she will get a taste of what life really will be like without you. But since you are still having contact with your wife by talking with her on the phone and having lunches and dinner, you are not in plan B mode at all. The time when you will be able carry out a plan B is when your pain becomes so unbearable that you will not be able to be near her.<p>Your W moving out and saying that as soon as she gets feelings for you that she will work on the marriage is bogus. You admit that she is still in the fog and if that is so then she's got more than enough opportunity living by herself to continue an affair with another man.<p>In the meantime, use the time to read more on the subject of affairs to educate yourself and get some ideas so that when she is finally out of the fog and really, really serious about working on the marriage, you'll be more than ready yourself.<p>Joe

Thanks Joe,<p>I was never given an opportunity to continue Plan A, I tried helplessly, but she was the one who wanted to move out. Well also, at that time I was not aware of many things which was informed to me later after she moved out.<p>Though I have stopped calling her or talking to her, she is the one calling and trying to talk. Actually we are in the middle of building a house and that kind of keeps us in touch, though I don't want any CONTACT. <p>What do you suggest I do, my love for her is drained every day as time passes by and I don't know how long I can take this.<p>To be honest we had a great marriage until the EA/PA never had problems, maybe communication sometimes, EN are met though we can do a better job after reading and learning at MB.<p>Please advice any suggestions you might have, thanks a lot.<p>The Lion

Have you considered scheduling an appointment with with one of the MB counselors. I spoke with Steve yesterday morning (my 1st appt with him), because I was kind of in the same position you are, to Plan B, or not to Plan B? My WH seemed to be coming around a couple of months ago, then I LB'd pretty badly (definitely not Plan A) and set things back, I went into a modified Plan B, what I mean by that is that I did not write a letter but did not contact him. My mistake there was that I went into this on a bad note and that was his last impression of me. Steve suggested that I revert back to a full-fledged Plan A with no LB's, whatsoever. He warned me that I would feel like a doormat, that I would feel like I was being used, but that's okay. He also recommended that once a week I give him a card to let him know that I was thinking about him, but not to write anything to try to push him. Plan B is a hard one to go to, because if you do go there, you have to stick it out. Good luck with your decision.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>TheLion:<strong>
What do you suggest I do, my love for her is drained every day as time passes by and I don't know how long I can take this.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you have the money, I would suggest that you counsel with Steve Harley and get his professional opinion.<p>Since it is she that makes contact with you, you may want to inform her that she stick to only talking about the house project and nothing else since the situation she has created has wounded you very much and that it only serves to chip away the remaining love you have for her. No breakfast,lunches or dinners at all. Your conversations should be kept to a minimum amount of time and if she insists on talking about the two of you then simply ask that she respect your request of no relationship talk just like you have respected her request to move out.<p>When you say you don't know how long you can take this, do you mean that you are actually considering divorce?<p>Joe

Thanks for the reply. Goingcrazy.
Yes I have talked to Steve last week, however, my W is not ready to speak to him. <p>If your WH is not ready to give up the OW I strongly believe Plan B is the best option for people like us, who have not done anything wrong and are still suffering the aftermath of the crap.<p>I have contemplated with A and B for a long time, as a matter of fact I am in sort of A & B same as yours. I am at a stage where B seems to be the appropriate action, I will speak to Steve next week and make that decision.<p>Keep patience and hang in there those are the only choice we have unfortunately. <p>The Lion

Thanks Joe for continously replying I sincerely appreciate that, without the support at MB there is not a whole lot that we can accomplish.<p>I have talked to Steve last week, my W does not want to talk to Steve, I will try and speak to Steve again this week.<p>I have absolutely stopped calling her, because I backed off, she started coming around but that lasted a week or so, now we are pretty much on plan B no contact. <p>Because of the house we might talk or meet to discuss issues relating to the house, but I will try to keep it to that, thanks for your advice.<p>"When you say you don't know how long you can take this, do you mean that you are actually considering divorce?"<p>Yes these thoughts are a constant, they keep coming back and forth, like, whether I will be able to TRUST her again, will I be able to love her again, will she ever stop LIEING etc. I can't decide. Its too confusing at times and it just takes everything I got. Honestly I have no clue what to do. <p>As always will appreciate your feedback.<p>The Lion<p>Joe[/QB][/QUOTE]

Lion:<p>I'm glad that you talked to Steve Harley because he's the expert and even if your marriage doesn't make it, like mine didn't, the things you learn from the Harley books and this forum will make you a stronger and better individual. Sure it hurts like h*** - don't I know it [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] - and I know what I'm about to say is poor consolation, but the things you learn by reading the Harley books like 'Surviving an affair''Love busters''His needs Her needs'. etc will make you aware what makes a relationship work - or don't work - and this will serve you extremely well in your recovered marriage or future relationship.<p>The great thing about plan B is that it takes the BS away from the unbearable pain from an unrepentant WS paying lip service about wanting to work on the marriage while continuing with the A. It also gives the WS a good taste of what life will be like if divorced from the BS. Of course there is always the possibility of the WS taking advantage of the out-of-sight-out-of-mind environment that plan B makes possible
and living it up with the OP - but there is no guarantee that this won't happen anyway, right?-.

What you have got to keep in mind is that your W's affair - like all affairs - is nothing but a fantasy because she and OM are not living together day by day and experiencing the joys [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] of the fantasy killer called reality. Don't be surprised that if and when your W's affair ends, she will feel like s*** because she'll realize that the only thing OM wanted her for was for her to be his cheap wh***. The sad thing is that it may be too little too late for her because you will probably will have moved on with your life. I wish I had saved the post from a few weeks ago from WS's that divorced their BS's to go live with the OP only to come out of the fog a year or two later and realized what a big mistake they made. You can't help but feel sorry for them because there is no way for them to go back and recover what they threw away.<p>Keep on posting and let us know how you and your WS are doing.<p>Have a safe and happy Memorial day weekend Lion. We'll be here for you if you need us.<p>Joe

Hi Joe!<p>I am terribly sorry to hear that your M didn't work out, well all the best in whatever you do and where ever life takes you.<p>I have ordered all the books you have mentioned and have been reading numerous others, I think I can get a PHD by the time I finish reading on A's.<p>Joe, I need to ask you how long were you on Plan B (not trying to be nosey) but with your experience maybe I will learn something. And what went wrong or your W never got out of FOG ? <p>"but there is no guarantee that this won't happen anyway, right?-." ABSOLUTELY. <p>they have demonstrated to us that they can do it anytime, anywhere, anyway they want it.

"cheap wh***." I agree very much.<p>Some of the other Q?s that is constantly on my mind is when you are in Plan B, <p>how do you deal with joint financing, mail, joint accounts, joint Credit cards, personal belongings, (she still have lot of stuff at my place) what about the new house we will be moving in JUNE ( maybe only me). I still take care of all the bills, though it hurts tremendously that you are paying lot of it for the A. BUT I am trying to be patient to see if my W come out of the Fog.<p>Also, my W keeps telling me the A is over the OM does not want her but she is the one still pursuing it, I just uncovered that she has been sending e-mail to OM however, I am not sure if OM has replied. What do I make of this ? (By the way if you recall the OM is overseas not much of PA but definately EA).<p>By the way our last contact was Thursday, I have not heard from her and have not contacted her. I have promised myself that I will not contact her no matter what, THOUGH like everyone else I get tempted to do it million times a day.<p>Well I guess enough for now, Joe, I will appreciate your reply.<p>Take Care and have a nice weekend.
TheLion

Hi Lion:<p>No you are not beign nosey in asking me how long I was in plan B. Unfortunately the simple answer to that question is zero time and it was because my marriage ended two years before I discovered Marriage Builders and it's concepts. <p>My xWW had multiple affairs - with men who had prison records to boot - and suffered from drug and sexual addiction that required serious psychological therapy in order for her to heal and live a productive life. <p>On many occasions I begged her to please take advantage of my company's medical insurance and seek treatment if not for her than for our daughters, but she flatly rejected my suggestions with laughter. The last time I made my plea to her she told me: 'f*** off it's my life and I will do what I damn well please with it and you and the girls can just k*** my a**'. After that, I filed for separation with a request for temporary custody - which was denied - and left her with my daughters in tow. <p>Unfortunately for me and our daughters, she still continued with her reckless inmature lifestyle of multiple affairs and neglecting our daughters by abandoning them when she went out with her BF's to party. When I found out about her abandoning our daughters to go out partying, I inmediately contacted my local social servicers agency and requested that a case worker be sent to investigate and possibly confirm what my daughters had told me. Well they did send someone and sure enough she witnessed first hand how our daughters had been left alone one night and she contacted the police and had her arrested for child endangerment charges. She - the case worker assigned to my case - filed a report with the social services agency on what she discovered and that report was forwarded to family court during the custody phase of our divorce. Fortunately for my daughters and me, the judge read the social service agency report and wholeheartedly agreed that my daughters best interests were best served with me as their sole custodial parent and ordered supervised visitation rights for my xWW.<p>For the first time in more than 16 years my xWW had to find a job not only to survive but to make child support payments. She was totally shocked because she never expected to loose so badly everything she had. Her friends were telling me that after the divorce/custody fall out, my xWW had stopped her affairs and attempted suicide twice. She was finally taken to a county ran mental clinic and she began the first in many treatments for her addictions. I had a feeling that sooner or later she would hit rock bottom but I had no idea of the magnitude of her crash and burn. Today, she still is continuing her therapy treatments and has comed a long way from the time me and our daughters left her that she now has unsupervised visitation rights and the girls stay with her two weekends out of the month. Even though she is still from beign mother of the year, I take great comfort that she is now a responsable parent and loves her daughters the way a mother should love them.<p>As far as yours truly is concerned, I met a wonderful lady - she too is divorced and was the BS - a year after my divorce and just recently proposed to her. My daughters - who are very protective of their dad - gave me their seal of approval before I became serious with her, and like her very much. The sad thing is that a few months after I started dating my new lady, my xWW wrote me a letter telling me how sorry she was for everything she put me and the girls thru, and that she wished that she could go back and undo everything she did because she now realized that she truly does love me very much and she always will. I say sad because even though I had already made peace with the past - no more love left in my love bank for my xWW - and moved on with my life, she finally realized the big mistake she made in letting herself be seduced by drugs and sexual addictions instead of working out her problems in a positive and constructive fashion [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My stbW has also read 'Surviving an affair''Love buster' and 'His needs Her needs'. The beauty of our relationship is we get to practice the concepts in the Harley books and are very happy for doing so.<p>I guess the moral of my story is that it isn't until we the BS's end or get close to ending our marriages, that our WS's often times come out of their fog and sometimes it is, for them anyway, too little too late.<p>As for how long you should plan B? In the Harley book 'Surviving an affair' the case is made that an affair can last anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. Plan A is not recomended for 6 months and if the affair is still going, then the BS should switch to plan B for 1 and 1/2 years before proceeding with divorce. Of course every situation is different and Steve or Jennifer Harley MAY tell you to go plan B inmediately or stay in plan A longer than 6 months, that's the reason why you need to continue to consult with either one of them to help you determine what is best for your particular situation.<p>By the way, what did Steve Harley tell you to do? <p>
Joe<p>[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Hi Joe<p>My heart goes out to you and your daughters and I pray that no human being should be in a situation like you it is devastating. Though I wish you all the best with your new mate. <p>I will be talking to Steve, next week, we have just been working and trying to keep status quo of things were they are, in hope that FOG deminishes itself or clears up a bit.<p>I will keep you updated as it progresses, thanks for being there for me.<p>TheLION

Hi Lion!<p>Love your coffee? If you are not familar, please let me explain: In Hawaii there is a lion brand of Hawaiian coffee! So maybe you have connections!!! LOL! Just kidding. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway to your comments about plan A vs plan B, I'd like to share a brief discription of it from the basic concepts section and you decide if you can still plan A while she is out there in lala land and what plan A really means for U. <p>Plan A & Plan B info.
Taken from the basic concepts section:<p>What is the purpose of Plan A taken from the basic concepts section):<p> plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again. <p>Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. {b]While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.{/b] <p>
Plan B akso taken from the basic concepts section):
to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <p>Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. <p>
&#8230;In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. <p>But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety. <p>In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts. <p>Please us know what you think about this point from the concepts section. <p>Thanks,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Orchid:<strong>
Love your coffee? If you are not familar, please let me explain: In Hawaii there is a lion brand of Hawaiian coffee! So maybe you have connections!!! LOL! Just kidding.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>hmmmm (Homer Simpson voice over) coffee.<p>Joe

Sorry to nose my way in.<p>The Lion,<p>I am sorry that you are in this place right now. I know how difficult it is. You have been given some good advice and should consider it.<p>I have made several mistakes in my Plan A, one it lasted too long. And my piece of advice would be not to let that happen. I should have gone to Plan B long ago but was too afraid. Also, my H always seemed to turn it around for a little while.<p>Now, I am forced into Plan B but I still need to try and figure out if I should Plan A a little, so that my H does not remember the bad me who LB's big time. Someone in you post wrote about that and it makes sense.<p>Too Much Coffee Man,
You story is amazing. My heart goes out to you and I wish you so much luck with your new partner. I only hope that someday my H will come out of the fog and realize what he lost. I hope that happens before I move on. But it would not be bad if it happend after I moved on either. I just so badly want him to realize that life is not better with her and what he lost in me. I have done some stupid things during this crazy time. All of which has taken place each time he asked for a divorce. But I have also given so very much. I have tried to very hard. Why can't he see what he means to me and what we have?

Hi Orchid,<p>Believe it or not I studied in Hawaii, lived in Hawaii Kai between 91 - 95 went to HPU downtown. I am fully aware of the Hawaiian coffee.<p>Thanks for your support and helping me dissect A & B I guess I am in B because the A is not stopping and is continued ONE WAY that is only my W is pursuing as far as I know. We have NO CONTACT since last thursday it has been 5 excruciating painful days but I am getting better every day.<p>Once again thanks for your help, please keep replying it really helps.<p>The Lion

Hi N2BH<p>Thanks for your comments. I really S**** at the place we are in because as a matter of principal we as BS have done nothing wrong and we have been projected as bad guys, thats UNFAIR and it hurts.<p>I suggest plan B though it is Tough and scary all along but to my rational mind that seems to be the appropriate action for WS to react if they dont the inevitable is on the table D.<p>Good Luck and keep us posted where you are ?<p>The Lion

I have absolutely stopped calling her, because I backed off, she started coming around but that lasted a week or so, now we are pretty much on plan B no contact.
You (the BS) do Plan B, the WS just ignores you.<p>N2BH,
I have made several mistakes in my Plan A, one it lasted too long. And my piece of advice would be not to let that happen. I should have gone to Plan B long ago but was too afraid.
Then do it right before you go to Plan B.<p>Now, I am forced into Plan B but I still need to try and figure out if I should Plan A a little, so that my H does not remember the bad me who LB's big time.
Either you Plan A or Plan B, NOT both. Do a good Plan A so your spouse KNOWS the "good" you and not the "bad" you.

Thanks Chris I will follow your advice and continue plan B though it is very hard I am learning to live with it.<p>You (the BS) do Plan B, the WS just ignores you.<p>TheLion

I too am in Plan B for 2 months now. I cut contact with WH and he continued to try and contact me via phone. I told him more than once that I would only communicate about necessary things - kids, finances, etc. via e-mail. He claimed that I was trying to disassociate myself from this. My reply was that I didn't want to be on the emotional rollercoaster that I had been on and wasn't going to put myself throught that. He is now to the point where he is not replying to my e-mails or calling. Guess he is doing Plan B as well. Don't know if this is part of the withdrawl from A or depression of if he is continuing A. Many times he has threatened D but each time I have told him that is not what I want. Don't know how much longer I have to continue with Plan B. I have good and bad days, just like everyone else on this board. This is my first post but I have been reading for about 2 weeks now. Amazing that stories are so similar, even what the WS tells you and you, the BS actually believe. Try to make him think that I don't care what he does, but it is getting harder and harder the longer that we are seperated.
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello - Is this a bad dream:<p>All my sympathies and prayers, I am in the same exact situation as you are my W is in FOG for last 8 weeks. Plan B continues. <p>One thing that bothers me a lot is we as BS have done nothing wrong and still have to suffer along just to save our M and love, what kind of reality is this ? I am just like you tired, exhausted and dead, don't know how long I can survive this.<p>Good Luck, hang in there, and we all hope for miracle.<p>thelion