ASL,

I will put up a new topic over there if it will let me today. I thought it was just me at first....in a way, I'm glad it isn't...so they will fix it faster. GQII is a great place to get more traffic....I will try to check that out. EN would be really great too....so many of the oldtimers hang out over there and they have the best advice.

Do you know how to put a link in here to your posts in GQII? Open up this window, and then open a new window with your post in GQII so you can see the URL (which is in the address bar...http://www.....) Then go down to the "Instant UBB Code" there is a button for URL. When you push it, a small window will show up and you need to push delete first (all you are deleting is http:// and then retype the address from your post in GQII (including the "http://") and the rest of the address. Then push okay. A new little windo will come up, where you write in the title of the thread and you will come up with a really nice link. Then anyone coming here will not miss your posts in GQ.

If you already knew all this.....nevermind!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ASL,

Just read your latest post over on GQII. I was glad to see a few more folks chime in a say it is not time for Plan B yet....but I see there are alot of complex issues involving your wife and her depression. It is a special challenge to have an ongoing relationship with someone who has depression issues. It is a shame that she won't seek help. And I agree with JL, that your youth makes it essential (since ideally marriage lasts a long long time) to make sure that once your Plan A works...and I see no reason why it should not...and you start negotiating the terms for her return home...that part of the process aside from ending the A is for her to at least address her depression (not as a way of changing WHO she is...but helping her cope with how she FEELS) You do not want to end up right back where you are now because you didn't and have to repeat this mess. If you were married to an alcoholic, it would be no different. The alcoholism would have to be treated before your success ratio would go up. Good luck to you. Still can't post on the EN board...but I'll keep checking.

Good luck.

Thanks, star.

I did know about the code, what I plan to do one of these days is put a bunch of links to my other posts (since they're so scattered) into my sig file, so folks can read up easily if they want to follow the story or get any background. Gotta do that.

Depending on how things start to go once she is completely moved out, I'll have to start to think about how I'd handle it if she wanted to return. Right now, due to Plan A, she is certainly under the impression that she could be taken back unconditionally, and I may even go so far as to say that she might think _I_ have to do all the work, with her just doing nothing. So I guess I'd need to delicately come up with a way to suggest that one of the conditions would be for her to deal with her depression somehow. Sometimes, especially when I failed to be a good listener, she blamed me for her depression. However, there have been countless occasions where she has just told me she's not a happy person, and she is just sad, sullen, and that's her lot in life.

I try to tell her that it doesn't have to be that way, but she just doesn't even want to listen to that. I think she thinks anti-depressant medication is some sort of artificial thing, where in reality it corrects an imbalance that is WRONG (like an allergy medication or something). If she wanted to come back, AND agreed to see someone about her depression, I'd consider that a real breakthrough and find that is was worth a try.

On the other hand, I'd still have a lot to get over myself. The fact that her PA with the OM has gotten so intense, so fast (even after d-day) and that they will be spending a LOT of intimate time together, as long as this A goes on, will be something tough for me to get over, ESPECIALLY if she comes back. I do worry that it will be hard to see her the same ever again, or to trust her. I'm sure everyone wrestles with those issues, but for me, knowing what I know and what she's said and done with him, it's tough. It's not just an occasional fling with her, it's going to be a full blown PA for a while, at least until the newness of it all dies off. And that's a lot for me to stomach when I think about it.

The easiest thing for me is for her to just never come back, and file the Dv. But it's still not what I want, I don't want to give up on her. I feel that we can work things out, but I feel it will be a HUGE recovery effort to do so. If she's not 110% into that if she asks to come back, I don't see how I could even try.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ALostSoul:
<strong>First off, some background into my situation. Since it just happened recently I have it fresh in my head. It's long but I hope you'll hang with it. I'll try and get to the point as much as I can.

NOTE: If you want to skip all the "Finding Out" stuff and just go to some of my Plan A issues and questions, you can skip down to the 10/29/02 entry or later.

My W and I met over the internet, and had a long distance relationship for about 2 years, seeing each other in person more and more frequently as time went on. 2 years ago, she moved in with me, leaving her friends and family behind. After we lived together for a year, I asked her to marry me. We'd had our share of arguments over that time, mostly stemming from her sadness over missing home, but the good certainly seemed to outweigh the bad, and we loved each other very much.

She got a job that she really enjoyed and after working there for a year, was finally starting to make friends, which I felt would be a good thing for her, as for her 2 years living her, her only contact has been with me and my friends, she never had any of her own. We spent all of our free time together, and, while it was a change for me having someone around all the time, I quickly took to it and truly loved her company. Most times, when we went out, it was just the two of us, it was rare that we'd do something as a group with my friends.

10/14/02 - W did something very out of character for her. She went to work and didn't come home. Of all the time I knew her, she had NEVER done anything like this so naturally I began to worry. I called people and went looking for her, fearing something may have happened to her. She came home around 4 AM, and I immediately could feel something was different. I was so relieved to see her but she seemed more distant. She said she went out drinking after work with a group of people and passed out on the couch at one of the girl's apartments. She said she just forgot to call me and tell me where she was. First off, she never went out anywhere before without me, but that didn't even bother me, one phone call before she left and I would have been fine. What bothered me was that she didn't even call.

10/19/02 - She called me from work to tell me she was going to a party with friends and wouldn't be home that night. I got upset, and begged her to come home and spend the night talking to me. We'd never resolved what happened earlier in the week. She refused. She went out and came in at 7:00 the next morning. All that day, she was acting very strange, trying to get to the computer without me being around, trying to get me to leave the house. It was then I sure that something was being kept from me. In 2 years knowing her, she'd never gone out without me once, now twice in one week, for almost an entire night.

10/20/02 - I asked her several times about her whereabouts, where she was on those two nights. She got irritated that I even asked, answering my questions with as little information as possible. I point blank finally asked her, "Are you waiting for an e-mail from someone else, a new friend from work?" She answered NO and acted like I was a real jerk for asking.

10/21/02 - My resistance to snoop got the best of me, so I checked her email. Sure enough, email from OM. She had been spending the entire day on Sunday trying to get in touch with him again. I went to work, but couldn't concentrate, so I raced back home and confronted her. I got angry. I got upset. I was floored. I was in shock as I hadn't seen it coming, and I NEVER thought she was capable of doing something like this to anyone, let alone me. She was always such a loving, caring person to me. So I made all the classic moves that a BS does -- I ranted and raved, and I demanded to know everything.

She tearfully told me that she was out with him and other co-workers on both nights that week, and that both nights she got drunk and they kissed. And it wasn't innocent little pecks either. They kissed. And that put me over the edge. At least she was honest and told me, but that was all I could stand -- I asked her to pack up and leave. She tearfully started to pack a bag, and then, 10 minutes later, I told her to go to work, and come home that night, and we'll talk. Of course, the problem was, she was going to work where the OM was, and naturally all that I took from the LB was his gain, and he'd be helping out with her EN even more now. Of course, I hadn't been to MB yet, so I didn't know this!

She came home that night and we both cried some more, and I confronted and asked more questions. I was upset, but during the day, I made the decision, not even knowing about Plan A, that she and I could work through this. I loved her and she made a mistake, and it was in the open now. If she was willing to give us a try, I was going to take her back, and work on our relationship. I was surprised when she said she couldn't tell me what she wanted. She was leaning towards leaving us. I never expected that. I was hoping for a tearful "I'm Sorry" (which I got) followed by an "It'll never happen again" (which never came).

10/23/02 - 10/29/02 - We had a prepaid cruise vacation scheduled and after she almost refused to go, we took it. I didn't expect us to solve anything on it but it would have been such a HUGE waste of money to not go. I thought it might even help a little bit, but she was very reluctant to talk about anything on the vacation, as she felt trapped since she had no one to run to (not the OM). During the trip, she emails the OM once, letting me know she is doing it but not letting me read what is said. We had some fun times on the trip, I practice Plan A the entire time (again, still haven't been to MB yet, just trying my best to show her a good time). She sleeps a lot of the time on the trip and does not want to talk at all about the incident or us. Just ignores it.

10/28/02 - The night before we get home, she tells me it's over, she has no faith in us and that she's "never having sex with me again" after I ask if she remembered to take her pill (we haven't had sex in weeks before this as well). I get angry and accuse her of never giving us a chance, tell her she's had her mind made up from the start and she agrees.

10/29/02 - We get home and I try to continue (with Plan A), though snooping gets the best of me again. We haven't been home an hour, and her flirtatious emails with OM have started right back up. They are getting stronger, even though he was resistant, both due to the fact that she was M and that he wasn't even sure he was interested. She was pursuing HIM now. Even after my offer to work things better between us.

So, again, even after reading this, I lose it again (remember, I still haven't read the MB Plan A yet or even been here). I calmly but sternly told her that since I know she is still having her A, that she must leave. I told her that she was welcome to stay if the A stopped, but it hadn't, so she needed to move out. Either home with her folks, or get her own place. I knew she loved her job too much to leave it, and that she wouldn't want to leave her friends or the OM (at least not now), so her choice would be to get her own place. I tell her to stop wearing her wedding rings, it's an insult to me to have them on as she sees him. She does and I realize that was awful. I told her I was sorry and I wish she would wear them again. I wear mine now. She doesn't. That hurts me. I said that out of anger not thinking ahead to what I really wanted. I will never do that again.

11/1/02 - She left for the weekend to see her folks. She'll be back late Sunday night. I don't snoop at all or doubt her intentions during this weekend. I feel good thinking that she at least said she told him on Thursday night that she was stopping things with him until she could figure things out. This could be the end of the A, I thought.

11/2/02 - I discover MB, and read. And read. And read. And everything that's taken place over the past 2 weeks starts making more sense. I start to understand more, and calm down. I realize I'm not the first person this ever happened to. There are other people out there like me. And that so much of what has happened has been textbook case type stuff. I also realize that my behavior is not helping. Since I've now done a lot of reading at MB, and I realize that she says she is ending the A, I give her the benefit of the doubt. I send an e-mail to her knowing she'll see it from her folks' place. In it, I tell her that she is welcome to stay at the house if she would like to. I asked her if she was sure she really wanted to leave me and leave our home.

I realized that I was already working on Plan A without even knowing it. I wanted her to realize that I loved her and that I could forgive her. I wanted to learn to trust her again. Most of all, I wanted to understand what allowed this rift between us to appear, and how to make things better. I wanted to meet her EN. I wanted to deposit truckloads into her LB. All of this was what I wanted to do. I just wish it wasn't so hard to do while my WW was still in the "fog".

11/3/02 - She comes home late that night. She was at her folks' place for the weekend (no questions there). Truth. At least I hope so. She could have stopped to see him on her way back without telling me, of course, but who knows. I wanted to believe she didn't. Still unsure on that one. I ask her if she got the mail. She said yes, and that her answer was yes, she wanted to stay and did not want to leave. But she says things are "complicated" and she wants to talk tomorrow as it's late. She goes off to the other bedroom (she's been sleeping apart from me since everything started, by the way).

11/4/02 - I leave the situation alone in the morning, even at night, as she comes home from a rough day at work. I attempt to talk to her about it but she is distant. I make her dinner, get her drinks (stuff I used to always do, nothing special), and she asks to watch TV. Finally, after a while, I ask her about the talk she said we could have. She gets upset and doesn't want to talk, but a few things come out. Since I was getting calls from apartments all day, I told her I assumed she was moving out. But I again reaffirmed my commitment to her. I told her that she can stay if she wants to work on us. I told her I wasn't kicking her out of the house. I told her if she leaves, she is leaving ME, I am not forcing her to go. Nor will I try and force her to stay either. All I asked her is that she put her A on hold if she stay at the house, as I felt that was disrespectful to me. She agreed and -- Was that a mistake? Not good Plan A, right? I asked her for no more lies, said there was no reason for us to lie to each other anymore.

5 minutes after that talk, she left the room to return phone calls about apartments. Or so I hoped. She tells me that she is going to look at a place, and is off. I wait and wait. After she's gone for an hour, my snooping gene kicks in again. I check her mail, and yep, she was emailing the OM and went off to meet with him as he left their workplace. He'd walked her to her car that night and she was going back again to spend more time with him. So 5 minutes after I poured my heart out and asked her for no more lies, she emailed him, and lied to me to leave and see him.

Plan A I believe says I should have left it alone. I couldn't. I felt like a fool. A doormat. Everything from her mouth seemed to be a lie. So I left the email up on the screen for her to see when she returned, and went to bed.

She came home an hour later, and came right to me to talk. I know that my snooping was again a major LB withdrawal as was her lies a major LB withdrawal for me. She sits down to talk to me. It starts off angry and I do my best to stay calm.

I told her my thoughts. I felt betrayed. She again ran down the list of hurtful things. Now the time that she says she has felt emotionally distant from me is up to "the last SIX months" (was three before). She says she loves me still and loved me then, but she was always missing something. She hoped I could learn to give her what she needed emotionally but the longer it went without me doing it, the less she had faith in us. She blamed herself for shutting me out, which started about 3 months ago (looking back, I can see it now). She tells me that since it started, she didn't want to have sex with me anymore, and anytime she did was to just get it over with. She still felt physically attracted to me, but that sex is also emotional and without that, it was pointless. She said most of this is her fault for shutting me out. I told her that the deterioration of our relationship is something we are both responsible for. Her A was her decision, but what led up to it was a factor caused by both of us.

Now, here come all the hurtful things she said - As the articles here say, I'm not supposed to let any of this stuff get to me, and I think I've seen all of these come up before:
-- She loves me, she's still physically attracted to me, but she's not EMOTIONALLY attracted to me anymore.
-- She IS attracted to him emotionally
-- She has shut me out and lost faith in me and us for the past 3-6 months
-- I never gave her whatever she's missing, and she is doesn't think I ever will be able to give it to her

I tell her that 3 days ago, she told me she was putting him on hold, and now she's back on with him. In those 4 days, I had done nothing negative to her at all. I gave her my full trust and love and devotion. But it took her 3 days of saying her A was over to decide that it was back on. She had no answer to that fact. She knew she was wrong to tell me her A was over when it never was. I speculate it was just so she could stay at the house for longer, still have her A and a comfy place to live while she apartment hunted.

Now, here's an important point I want to bring up regarding all of Plan A, and something I need to run by the experts here for an opinion on how my Plan A is going and what hope there might be for us. Keep in mind the following has happened several times over the past 2 weeks: She acklowledges the fact that she is going to miss so much of what we have right now. She is scared to be without me. She is scared of the future. She tells me that she is getting her emotional needs from him but she gets so much more from me. SHE REALIZES THIS. She claims that she doesn't think she and OM have a future because of how they started and because he will be the one that drove she and I apart. She and I recall some of the good times we've had and she cries over the thought of losing that. This has happened quite a few times over the past 2 weeks. But the end result is always the same -- She says she is drowning right now, and she is afraid to stay, and has no faith that I can fulfill her EN. I think she's in the fog, but I don't want it to be too late before it lifts.

Here's another interesting point, too -- She didn't tell her parents all weekend what happened. I'd always gone with her to visit them, as they live far away. I asked her what they said when she told her about us, and she said she didn't tell them a thing. Why did she not do this? Guilt? Postponing it? Saving it for a phone call? Or perhaps hoping we may reconcile and they'd never have to know? I'm not sure. I was shocked that she chose not to tell them anything though. Even now, I have already spoken to friends and immediate family about what happened, I needed some people to talk to and to get support, opinions, etc, especially before I found MB.

We are distant but occasionally hug, I am the one who initates the hugs and I don't think she minds. They are not the same hugs as we used to have, but it is something. I just want her to know that despite the lies and deception and her confusion, I still care about her very much and I am not giving up on her. She is giving up on me.

11/5/02 - Her apartment search continues. She claims to have an appointment to look at one tonight, again close to the time he leaves from work. I am doing my best to hold my tongue in accusing her that she is going to see him. I shouldn't do this, right? I guess that she would already think I suspected anyway, without my having to say.

Before she left for work this morning, I told her to think and make sure she makes the right decision. I know she again will be spending time with OM today as she does every day. I told her that I believe one day, maybe in a month, maybe in a year, she will regret leaving me and giving up on us. She said she knows that, and it about made her cry. But I don't think that's enough for her to change her mind. All she says to that is "That's what makes this so hard." She's still stuck in the present. I wish she could look 6 months ahead and think of where her possible choices will take her. What hurts me is that a lot of times I'm not sure why she's sad -- If she's sad for us as a couple, or just for herself because she'll be lonely. Or maybe it's a little of both.

I think her worst fear is staying and having things get worse. In her mind, she's already given me 6 months to make things better between us. In my mind, I've had less than 2 weeks to improve on us, knowing finally what her feelings truly were. I guess for her, the thought of staying is unbearable. For me, it seems like I never had a chance.

Today, I emailed her some links to the EN survey and an article or two here at MB. Now I'm reading that I shouldn't try to educate. I guess I messed up again. The articles were just so good and summarized our situation (as well as how things can be remedied) that I thought her seeing them may give her confidence in us. Bad idea? I also have "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" on order right now. Expecting them soon. Should I read "Surviving An Affair" too? Maybe she'd like to read them as well. I dunno.

Now that she knows MB, I realize she may read more. That may be good or it may be bad. I'm certainly not trying to keep what I'm doing here a secret, though. I don't feel Plan A or B are anything that need to be forced, these are things I would have done anyway as I truly love her, care about her, and still believe that we can be very happy together, happier than ever with the more we learn about each other. I am learning so much from this process that I feel regardless of whether this relationship can be saved, I'll be a better man for it. And if she gives up on us, the next time I meet someone, I will be SO much wiser when it comes to her needs.

If she comes here and reads this, I'm sure that may even be a LB, so giving her the MB link may have even been a mistake. But, then again, all I am saying is true, and it's totally nonymous. Plus, being here and saying all this really helps me put things into perspective. And I value your opinions, as you all know what I'm going through.

I can only assume right now that she will be leaving and Plan B will be starting soon. I still have faith that their PA has not gone past kissing. That's bad in itself, but the thought of it going further than that takes my LB down to an all time low. I'd love to be able to take her back during Plan B, when I expect she might realize she misses us after being apart, though I'm not sure how far or how long this A is going to go once she's in her own place, and she and he can see each other as much as they please. She may sign a lease any day now. Maybe even today.

SO, THAT'S WHERE IT STANDS. Did I set the record for longest single MB post ever?

SOME OTHER FACTS/CONCERNS I'D LOVE TO HEAR THOUGHTS ON...

She lives 10 minutes from where she works and from where the OM lives, so right now, it's very easy for her to see him, especially since they work so close together at the same place 5 days a week.

I knew that her seeing him every day at her job was not going to allow the A to stop. She of course, claims that she hasn't "cheated" on me or had "an affair" since there hasn't been sex yet. I really want to believe there hasn't been sex, but I must argue that she has both had an affair and cheated on me. Am I not correct in saying that?

One of my biggest concerns right now is the fact that this happened so soon. Is time a factor when it comes to these things? Does it make a difference as to how much faith I should have in my W given the fact that just 6 months after we were M, her feelings for me started to wane? From where I'm sitting, the timeframe doesn't mean much to me, but to others I've talked to, it seems they feel that the fact that it happened so quickly does not bode well for future happiness for us. I don't want to feel that way, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that aspect from anyone reading this as well. It could really be viewed a few different ways -- Hey, we got it out of the way early, and now we have a lifetime to know each other better than ever, or, is the fact that it happened so fast a sign that she never truly loved me or that this could happen so easily again?

There is nothing I can think about now except convincing her that we are worth the chance -- That I am so confident that there is no one in the world that can make her happier than I can -- That I love her with all of my heart and soul -- That we can both learn from mistakes and we can move on and learn to love each other like never before. I just feel awful for every day that I took her for granted, or us for granted, and hopeful that she might somehow come to the realization that we can be great again.

---

I just want to also say what an amazing site this is. Sorry I had to discover it this way, wish I'd have found it even before I got M, but it truly is a wonderful resource. It's been informative and very reassuring to read the
professional articles, Q&As, and especially first-hand accounts in the forums from others who have been through the same thing as me. It amazes me how much my situation mirrors so many others out there.

Thanks to everyone, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions. I plan to keep coming back to this thread periodically to post about my progress, if not only for feedback but for my own sense of sanity, even if you don't read this. But if you do, let me know, it'd be even nice to know if there was an audience!

Thank you all!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">