jgnc,
Seems that you already got the idea tha WS might not have been doing what she said, giving (farewell). Well hang in there. I think you are making a real effort and strides in the midst of many obstacles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can relate to what you mean about exposing to family. Is there anyone your WS respects that she would listen to if you exposed it to them?
Also there is a link that I'm leaving, if you are interested check it out. I was reading what you said about WS being somewhat cerebral (primarily intellectual in nature). Was she this way when you married? How did she show affection? What about you how do you show affection? Does this mean that she distances herself from you and acts more like a cold hearted? Just wanting to get a feel for her nature? Has she become this way more recently? Or has she been like her sister (Spock) all along?

Sometimes I think as the previous poster brought up that people try to put up barriers and excuses to keep from looking in the mirror. But that is neither here nor there so anyway I saw a strategy for a couple that were going through a tough time. One that the BS spouse employed. It may or may not of interest you. Wishing you
the best.

Links:
Top post
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=002107;p=2

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=014880#000002

Thanks for the links, as I continue to work on myself I will refer to them.

To answer your questions. I come from a very affectionate family. I think I am more affectionate than most because of this. After her parents divorce I would describe her as a victim of neglect. So she is not very comfortable with expressing affection. She does not have an aversion to affection in general but she does have a low threshold. After a while she will feel smothered. Other times it will just feel unatural to her. She hasn't always been this way but it is in no way a recent thing. I can't really tell when it changed, affection is tied to the way you feel about someone so there have definately been low points in our relationship. When we first started dating people joked that we were like 2 magnets, we had to be next to each other. But that was 8 years ago and things change. She has said some things that seem to indicate that she in not comfortable being with someone that needs so much attention from her.

Recently, I have changed how I express affection towards her, with varying degrees of success. I know that hugs and kisses smother her so I do other things. I try to be mindful that too much physical signs affection can have a contradictory effect so I try to let her initiate it instead. The hard part is that because of the EA my confidence in the M has waned and I constantly find myself looking for reassurance, hence have felt a greater need for affection.

well its been really busy the last 2 days and things feel strangely normal. I've begun to associate "normal" with complacency so its not a feeling I like when I reflect on it. I'm really trying to watch my mood. During the weekend we talked about the A and how we have both dealt with it so far. She felt like I had been trying to punish because. I was surprised because I have been trying hard to avoid doing just that. She felt that the moments where I was showing signs of depression were manipulation to make her feel guilty. She also interpreted my leaving SAA on a table as an attempt to make her feel guilty. Anyway, sorry for the brain dump. This has been the first moment I've had to think about things in the past few days.

JGNC

JGNC, Hi.

Yeah, watching your mood is important for many reasons. Yet it is difficult to do while trying to work on M. But you aren't alone. Post, share how you feel. Talk to supportive friend, journal.

I also relate to the greater need for affection and reassurance. I am just dealing with WW giving it then sometimes not giving it. I've found the rational site to be helpful in dealing with WW rejection/distancing.

Well as I reviewed your post it began to sound familiar to me. It did because I went through a similar phase in my life.

My Story: I am a FWW. When my WF and I met it was great. I was crazy about him. He was crazy about me. But on the inside I had all of these barriers set up about what was ideal to me, as it pertained to myself, to him, and to life.

There were past hurts about certain things in my life that I saw as failures. When he came along I was "the victim".

For a time I let him into my life. But only so far. I was a pretty unhappy person. As we got closer, I couldn't stand it and started pushing him away. Had an A and didn't care (or so I thought) if he knew it or not.

I didn't want any affection or a show of love or anything like it. This sort of thing had surfaced in my life before (in past relationships). I had unresolved issues.

For me I tried not to view emotions as a part of life. I saw everything as black and white. At the same time, nothing was right. I was super critical and antagonistic about most things.

Anyway my WW hung in there with me. Despite my horrible attitude and disposition for a long time. Then we broke up. During this time he met someone. They had an A. I say A because she is married.

Anywho, [I][/I] when I came to my senses I wanted all to be right with the world. Boy was I in a fantasy. I didn't know to the degree of how serious the A was. Also I didn't know the damage I had done.

Well what turned me around? First of all, I realized the problem was internal and that I needed to deal with it(internal issues) now. I grew up some. I realized that he was changing and I thought I might lose him. I blamed him a lot for things also. In that case it took time and changing my perspective to realize my error. We became more like friends. We liked talking to each other and there was no press of it being like a R. However, when I decided to turn around I had no idea the work that lie ahead of me.

Anyway, people do indeed make mistakes. I am grateful that I realized my mistake. I believe you are on the right track trying to work on yourself and with WS. But I believe she too is making a mistake. Also is she seeing a counselor? Someone that may help her sort out what she is feeling now. Have you talked about filling ENs? Hang in there. As always I'm wishing you the best. Sorry this post was so long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jgnc:
<strong>She felt like I had been trying to punish because. I was surprised because I have been trying hard to avoid doing just that. She felt that the moments where I was showing signs of depression were manipulation to make her feel guilty. She also interpreted my leaving SAA on a table as an attempt to make her feel guilty. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are your replies to her ?. You are doing good ... Care (ENs), protect (no LB), attentions (time) and honesty are 4 gifts of love.

-rh-

Redhat,

My response was one of surprise. I did what I could to explain to her that it was not a punishment. I wish I could explain to her how I have felt these past 2 months. Although she may have seen it as manipulative it was me not being able to cope with some very strong emotions as I had no one to help me through it. I do not discount what she says out right because my parents, in particular my father has a history of being emotionally manipulative and in the past I have been controlling.

She has made the accusation before on many occassions. Sometimes I think it is a defense mechanism. Something will make her feel threatened and she lashes out or she does not want to deal with the consequences of her actions so she lashes out.

The events that she talked about were soon after D-Day when I did not fully understand Plan A, so I let the anger and depression show through and I was not completely honest with her about my emotions or intentions.

The book, I hate to admit, was a manipulation on my part. Not to try and punish her but because I was afraid of her reaction upon me asking her to read it. She is not receptive to books that present some "method" to fix marriage. Rather than build up my courage and face her I left it, hoping that she would read it. She interpreted it as me leaving her a reminder of what she had done.

JGNC,
Orginally posted by JGNC:
She interpreted it as me leaving her a reminder of what she had done.

Hi I'm not sure if you read my comment or not but I was trying to explain that I was under another type of fog with some of the same notions as your wife when it came down to taking personal responsibility for my actions, for my life.

Afterall, though you may have been somewhat manipulative in other ways, was it an error to leave it (book) behind in hopes that she might read it and become informed of what is happening between you?

Though being manipulative isn't the best strategy, does it make her any less guilty for her transgressions because you make an effort to get through to her? I see it as a "If the tree falls in the forest" type situation. Anywho just my thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stand what you beleive w/o LB. You should even admit to her you leave the book intentionally b/c you want your M & you might see if she could benefit to her too. You should tell her that you are comfortable to ask her directly yet, it would takes time ... and say the big S word ... sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Don't kick youself ... a LB is defined as a repeated action that withdraw love units.

Note, if she preceived you as a controlling you have the plan A action to change that. One way is being honest and take her input dearly.

-rh-.

<small>[ December 10, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Freetobe,

Yes I did read your post, but it was 3am. I really appreciate the insights. I don't really know what to call fog anymore. Some of these behaviors pre-date the EA. This all also goes beyond the EA to the heart of the matter. I think there are still issues that she needs to work out. Thing is, about a year or so ago she simply quit on therapists. She is simply tired of working on herself when no one around her, myself included, was doing anything to improve themselves. We are attending MC but sometimes she sees it as a punishment as well.

We have not talked about EN's explicitly but we are making a better effort to meet them. Enough for things to be comfortable between us. During the upcoming break I'll broach the topic of the EN and LB questionares as both are big issues. Our MC has us working on "7 principles that make marriage work" I think that book will help us as well if the right effort was put behind it.

Yes, leaving the book out was a mistake. She did pick it up and read some of it but I should have asked her to read it. She didn't like what she read. I will take Redhat's advice on this one.

Hi JGNC
Hope WS will be open to to discussion.

Let me ask you a question are you familiar with computer courses, (IT)?

DAMMIT!

I should have known no contact would not be no contact. From what I read she hopes to keep very infrequent contact behind my back.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

JGNC, Hold on before you blow.
Remember what I noted earlier about bracing yourself, brace your heart. WS will lie. How you proceed from this point is important.
If you can calm down it will help before making next step.

well I have maybe 10 minutes before she gets back home and I just want to tear the @$@$$% house down around me. I feel sick and want to throw up. I can't confront her, not right now.

Right now I can imagine you are upset. Undoubtedly I would be also. However A thrive on WS lying and deceit. You may find that just as she is deceiving you she is also deceiving OM.
Did you just find this out? Do you intend to approach her or have you already?

freetobe,

Thank God for your sig...

ok, this happened 2 days after NC was stated so 1 week ago. She is going through withdrawal, cannot bear the idea of not speaking to OM for the rest of her life. She still thinks of a serious R w/ him. Ok, This is a stumble, I was expecting this, I was not expecting the horrible feeling attached to discoverying it. More upsetting than C is the dishonesty attached to it. I have no way of verifying if C has occurred since then. What to do, what to do....

JGNC
How are you now? Do you think you should get away before she comes back?
When I found WS lies in an email, I was literally fit to be tied. Maybe best to step away momentarilty (suggestion).

I just found out no confrontation yet. From what I can tell she is not decieving him.

got to go, she's home now

JGNC
I know you had to go. How are you? I feel for you having to go through this.

Originally posted by JGNC:
"She still thinks of a serious R w/ him. Ok, This is a stumble, I was expecting this, I was not expecting the horrible feeling attached to discoverying it. More upsetting than C is the dishonesty attached to it. "

Yes. The dishonesty of it all hits you with the element of surprise. Like a soldier on the battle field suddenly attacked by the enemy it delivers a crushing blow. It is a stumble+.
How did things go after post?

jgnc,

This is a week ago business ... in A life is very long time ago. See if she has contact, never confront her ... when you are ready, you inform her what you know and ask her what is her intention ... NO LB.

For now, chill out, this is a roller coaster ride of your life so you better have the stomach for it.

Hang in there.

-rh-

Freetobe,

I'm keeping this to myself, for all I know that will be the end of it. Or maybe I'm kidding myself, either way this is not the time to make a quick decision.