Curt- <BR> You asked when did all this begin for me.. October.. I came home from a business trip and was told "I'm not happy anymore with you.." basically what a horrible person I was, "No, there is no one else", etc.. He talked to me about working things out, came over, "visited", lied, betrayed and meanwhile he was living with his girlfriend and her 5 kids.. I allowed myself out of love to believe all of his lies. I found out the truth the Friday after Christmas and basically started "healing" then.. From that point someone (me) had a made a decision and I was ready to move on with my life.. <BR> As for the game.. The ball is in his court now. I will not allow him to come back on ONLY his terms. I am now a better person, able to communicate, not focused only on "material things", realize who I am, what I am worthy of, etc.. No matter how this turns out I will be "ok"... <BR> You mentioned being out on the road.. sure, we all had moments that we thought about seeing someone else, but like you said, we are above the animals and I made a vows in front of God, my friends, and my family. They did/do mean something to me. <BR> I also thought that an affair would make things easier to accept. I am not sure I can still say that. The fact that my H was intimate with someone else after we made those vows is killing me. I can only imagine that he said the same things to her as he said to me.. It has taken the "special" out of the words "I love you". From him, those words will never be the same for me. <BR> Absences does/did make the heart grow fonder, but funny it also eases the pain after a while. At least when I am 1,000 miles away, I dont worry about him coming over and there is no "threat" of being directly hurt by him. <BR> You mentioned your office and things being "familiar". I used to always need "familiar". After a while though (for me at least) familiar really stinks. My "home" is no longer "home". I can only look around it and see what the two of us built together. All of the dreams that we had in that house. The late nights in bed just talking about life and what direction we were headed, Planning vacations, discussing work, etc.. Those I miss the most and it seems empty without him (even though there are 3 other people living there..)<BR>Moving is also not an option because I have other responsibilities than to just myself.<P>Anyway, time to head out to the client site.. Will check back in later.. Good luck with your day. Hope to chat with you soon. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com<BR>

Dear Blindsided:<P>Sorry to reply so late, you seem to be on the east coast so you may have already hit the sack... I feel like a refuge, tried a different hotel tonight but didn't feel safe there so I moved again... got a late start tonight.<P>A fine kettle of fish for Christmas. Sorry to hear the events.<P>I love my son but to move in with a woman with 5 kids? I don't think so. Maybe that doesn't help you but...<P>Promises broken are a hard thing to live with when you've kept yours. I've broken promises but never by infidelity... I wish I never had broken any. Odd how we treasure some promises and are forgetful and careless with others... I guess I lost focus somewhere along the way.<P>I love you is special to me but it got to the point that it was never said. She told my mother once that her parents never said they loved her but she new they did... why not say it?<P>I like familiar, the sights, smells and sounds. Home, though is a place where we hang our hearts. I feel my heart is gone today but I also know it has gone missing for some time now. The planning and dreaming went away some time ago too... as did the vacations, the work together... This is what I am grieving for... the loss of what we built together and the plans to do more. The book says that, "Without hope the people perish" and so do lots of other things. I find many places to which that thought applies. Talking in bed... that's a distant memory... I'll never forget the time we drove back to the home state at Easter on a three day trip in the blue pickup I began with when I began with everything I owned in the front seat... 750 miles one way... Headed East in freezing rain past Abilene, topped the hill and nothing but jacknifed trucks and more ice eastward. We faced facts together, ate in Abilene and headed back west. Homesick together but still together... we fell asleep in each others arms crying together... I miss her.<P>Distance... maybe that is what I really need. I plan to take the next two weeks disappeared to think... if she does me wrong she does me wrong... a lifetime of building... it pains me deeply. Job coming up in Oman, maybe I should go back out on the rigs and around the world... that is where I was always pretty happy.<P>Just because I want to know how you feel, do you know the terms under which you would take him back or is it just over? I've been doing a business deal... I finally have discussed it with my partners and been around the barn three times always coming back to the same door... I don't trust the other party and don't want to sully our reputation by dealing with his company... nothing he can do will allow me to get past that... Game over... go through the door.<P>I have a meeting tomorrow at 0800 to interview a counselor... I don't want a divorce. Why? If it's denial I want to find out. If it's really dead I want to find out... a second opinion. If it's all my fault I want to change. After all this time does love deserve a second chance? The Book says to forgive 7 times 70, what about love? I don't want to grow old alone... I really want a companion... someday I'll have one?<P>Vacuous... that's how I feel. I wonder how she feels now? But why? I keep asking.<P>Tomorrow I may find some answers or at least begin to. I hope and pray I do.<P>Why are we so mean to one another... life is too hard on the outside to have it in the home.<P>You sound to me like you'll not only be 'ok' but much better... I pray so.<P>Curt

Dear GnomeDePlume:<P>You are a prolific writer and put so much time into your reply I must answer you.<P>You need to understand that it is quite possible to do severe damage to a relationship without doing anything “wrong”. Your motivations and intentions may be good, and your behaviors might even be exactly right for some other relationship, but that doesn’t mean you are doing what needs to be done in your marriage.<P>Yup… I may have to agree.<BR> <BR>You say you are problem solver. That’s good and bad. On the good side, it should make it easier for you to remove blame from the equation: assigning blame will only get in the way. On the bad side, you are tempted to solve problems that are out of your realm of control. Your challenge is to identify what problems you can solve, and turn the rest over to God.<P>Again, no arguments… assigning blame is unimportant to me… trying to solve the problem is. Yes, the out of my control part is what I want to verify… If nothing will work I will have to work on me getting better.<BR> <BR>It is clear that there’s a lot about yourself that you could change that would improve at least your outlook, and possibly your relationship with your wife. Counseling for yourself is a very good idea, and you will get more “bang for the buck” if you go in with some clear and manageable goals.<BR>And who couldn’t stand to change some… <BR>Some fairly straightforward things that should help include paring down your expectations regarding your wife. It sounds like you expected (or hoped) that she would meet all your relational needs. That’s not realistic. Find other ways of getting your needs met, and take the pressure off your wife (even if that pressure only exists in your own mind, giving you an emotional undercurrent of dissatisfaction).<P>My expectations would be nothing if they got much lower… My relational needs have been nill.<P> <BR>I wonder if you might tend to be a bit too uncompromising. (Compromise is necessary in any marriage, although it is certainly unhealthy if only one party does all the compromising.) For example, you say your wife wanted you to go to church with her. This seems like a way you could have made deposits into your wife’s “love bank”. You don’t have to agree with everything that goes on in the church (or even be comfortable there) to get something out of it.<P>I did go for nearly two years… that bunch is not much more than a cult… never did waste time going to church but in the case of the UPC it’s a bit over the top. ‘Course the brand she grew up with is really over the top… fanatic. <P>In general, I suspect that you and your wife have been playing out roles that fail to take into account each others’ emotional needs. If you haven’t read up on this concept, I strongly recommend that you do so.<P>Getting her to read anything someone wants her to is like pulling eye teeth.<P>Anger management is a funny thing. It is important for you to allow yourself to feel your anger, and to be aware of it, while nevertheless controlling its expression. You and your wife might have differing ideas on what expressions of anger are acceptable, and that would make an excellent topic of discussion, with your wife ideally, but alternatively with a counselor.<P>Ordered up one counselor… now the challenge is getting her to go with me let alone by herself.<P>My anger management was apparently an issue in my relationship with my wife. I thought I managed my anger very well. If I didn’t express anger, my wife assumed I must have deeply buried rage just waiting to explode. And indeed when I did express anger, I sometimes did it explosively, albeit in a controlled manner. I never realized that this terrified my wife. I knew I was in no danger of “losing control”, but she didn’t know that. Even though I had never hurt her, or threatened her, or broken anything, or behaved destructively, I failed to take into account that as a girl she had seen her father out of control and so she might flash back to her childhood fears.<P>I wonder just how much she saw as a girl that has made things so difficult.<BR> <BR>You might be surprised at some of the techniques that work for controlling anger. I was. My therapist had me work on something called “empathic listening.” You consciously put yourself in a mindset of listening to your wife, focusing on understanding what she is feeling and encouraging her to explore and elaborate on her feelings. It doesn’t matter how outrageous and unfair those feelings might be, your job is merely to understand them without passing judgement on them or defending yourself. Once I had learned to call up this mindset at will, I no longer found myself even beginning to feel like I might be overwhelmed by anger. Calling up this mindset is tricky when you are caught by surprise (as when your wife suddenly lights into you for saying something that you had meant to be encouraging but which she took as an attack), but overall it is a technique that is surprisingly effective. Especially since anger management was not the reason my therapist gave me for applying the “empathic listening” technique.<BR> <BR>Boy have I ever been caught by surprise… It’s hard not to engage the fight or flight response.<P>Do you have a problem with patience as well as anger? You said your wife accused you of “screaming” at your son when you said “fine…stay home” after your son got mad at you for hurrying him. It makes me wonder what really happened, and what has happened in the past. Was your son’s anger a preemptive strike because he was afraid you would get mad at him? Did you warn him calmly that if he wasn’t ready within a certain period of time, that you would go without him? Does he feel the freedom to ask if he can have a little more time, or does he feel he must say he’s ready in hopes that he actually will be ready before you blow up at him? Or is this simply a respect issue? It should not be necessary for you to nag your son, and it is his own problem if he gets angry with you after he has been given adequate warning and a chance to negotiate. <BR>Do your son and your wife have a tendency to be chronically late? And do you like to be everywhere on time (or early if possible)? Your son’s idea of “ready”, and your wife’s failure to feel pressured by your son’s stated need to leave for school by 12:30, combined with your sense of pressure in the same circumstance lead me to suspect that you have different ideas about punctuality. This needs to be understood and addressed, or you will have to deal with misunderstandings of the type you described. If your wife is incapable of empathizing with your sense of urgency, she may well assume that there is some other cause for your “fussing”, perhaps even a malevolent one.<BR> <BR>Sorry, but the truth is they are chronically late.<P>But don’t assume that when your wife is in a bad mood that it has anything to do with you. I am neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to make a diagnosis, but I can’t help wondering whether your wife has some sort of mental illness (such as depression). Her paranoia in particular is troubling. Regardless, though, try not to take any “hateful” comments personally. Evaluate what she says as objectively as you can and ignore the attitude behind it. If she says something that doesn’t make sense, let it roll off you. (“She’s just in a bad mood.”) But it is important that you do not simply ignore everything she says when she is in a bad mood. If what she says has merit, act on it just as if she had spoken with loving concern. (For example, as the father of your son, it is your responsibility to back up your wife’s desire not to have your son leave his dirty laundry on the kitchen counter.)<P>And I do back her up but she leaves a trail of confusion in her wake because she is selective in her support if there is any at all of me.<P>So far as the mental part is concerned I am developing a growing belief that she was abused. The pattern of the abuser is that she can’t be loved because she doesn’t feel she is worthy of being loved. She is constantly testing to see just how far she can push people to see what will make them no longer love her.<P>You ask “What set the bomb off? I don’t see anything rational that justified the events…” Well, first of all, feelings don’t have to be rational. And second, “bombs” of this nature often come from a build-up of feelings over time and are merely triggered by the proximate cause. Further, there may be some validity to your suspicion that your parents’ visit had something to do with it. Does your wife believe your parents don’t like her? Might she perhaps feel guilty at the imbalance in parental involvement in your marriage? <BR>Your wife’s problem with self-esteem may be a critical one. If what self-esteem she does have is tied up with you, then she may well resent you for having that kind of control over her life. Unfortunately, if she won’t do anything herself to work on her self-esteem, I don’t know what can be done about this.<P>I think she resents any control… again goes back to possible childhood abuse and the control of the UPC.<P>Regardless, it is very clear that your wife could benefit enormously from competent counseling. Even if she refuses individual counseling, if she will agree to couples counseling you might be surprised at how much could be accomplished. For example, to explore the idea that your wife might feel guilty over the imbalance in parental involvement, you might suggest exploring the possibility that you feel resentment about that. If you can get your wife to talk about your resentment (thus addressing something you need to deal with about yourself), then she is already halfway to an awareness of her own feelings on the matter, and a good counselor might be able to take matters from there.<P>Interesting thought.<BR> <BR>Have you talked to your wife’s pastor about any of this? If he has any influence over her, and if you make it clear that you are willing to be guided by his counsel, that might be an excellent way to persuade her of your sincerity about wanting to do what it takes to repair your marriage.<P>No, I haven’t… I really don’t think too much of the guy but it might be worth a try.<P>Thanks very much for your well considered suggestions.<BR>

Curt... <BR> I am out on the east coast...In Virginia again for the moment... Headed back to FL on Friday, then back to New York for another two week road trip.. Looking like Colorado after that.. <P> You wrote a fair amount about trust. I completely understand. Trust is a major issue for me and I am not sure that I could ever take him back after everything that has happened. There are times that I feel like I do need to give our dreams/hopes a chance, when I hear his words, then I see his actions. They can't seem to match up. Good example is that he said he would call this morning.. Guess what?? No call. The funny thing is that I am no longer as upset about missing the call. Now, I just know that I will go on with my day, do a good job at work and deal with everything when/if it happens. When this all started my H and I spoke of "your word".. I told him that if you had nothing else in this world no one could take that away from you and you should hold it very close. He didn't. I always have. So.. where do I go from here when obviously our values are so very different? I think I already know the answer, I am just waiting for the right time.. <P> As for the two week escape.. Sounds like a great idea to me. I wish I had had the opportunity to do so. It would have been helpful. I will also say that if you were happy on the rigs all over the world. Bon voyage. I have found that in order for our signifigant others to be happy with us, we must be happy with ourselves. So.. if thats what makes you happy, then go for it. <P> I read a couple of posts and people talked about attending her church for love deposits. I disagree with that. Religion is a very personal thing. To me it would seem hypocritical to attend a house of God that you did not believe in. Again, you have to be true to yourself before you can be true to someone else.. Just my .02 for what it is worth. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

<BR>Dear Blindsided:<P>I go to the first counselor today. I guess this is Plan A of sorts.<P>The hypocritical part... that's it. We think too much alike to do one another much good on this board?<P>I pray you have a nice day and feel productive at the end of it. Not doing so just makes me feel worse.<P>Curt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helpifyoucan:<BR><B><I>You don’t have to agree with everything that goes on in the church (or even be comfortable there) to get something out of it.</I><P>I did go for nearly two years… that bunch is not much more than a cult… never did waste time going to church but in the case of the UPC it’s a bit over the top. ‘Course the brand she grew up with is really over the top… fanatic.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>However accurate your use of the words "cult", "over the top", and "fanatic" may be, you want to be careful about disrespectful judgements. There are some very decent "fanatics" involved in various "cults", and applying those labels is rarely useful, even in one's own mind.<P>That said, I think two years is a pretty solid effort at trying to make it work for you. In a more balanced relationship, you and your wife would probably have then looked for a church where you could both be comfortable. But obviously, now is not the time for that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><I>In general, I suspect that you and your wife have been playing out roles that fail to take into account each others’ emotional needs. If you haven’t read up on this concept, I strongly recommend that you do so.</I><P>Getting her to read anything someone wants her to is like pulling eye teeth.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really meant that <I>you</I> would benefit from a good understanding of the concept. But if you can get your wife to understand it too, that would be great. Perhaps she would be much more interested in pulling your teeth than her own? What if you gave her the material with the suggestion that you learned something about what <I>you</I> were doing wrong? Would <I>that</I> motivate her?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So far as the mental part is concerned I am developing a growing belief that she was abused. The pattern of the abuser is that she can’t be loved because she doesn’t feel she is worthy of being loved. She is constantly testing to see just how far she can push people to see what will make them no longer love her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Abuse is not the only explanation. I highly recommend the book <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787908703/o/qid=980962128/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-9465861-4102352" TARGET=_blank>The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment</A>.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><I>Have you talked to your wife’s pastor about any of this? If he has any influence over her, and if you make it clear that you are willing to be guided by his counsel, that might be an excellent way to persuade her of your sincerity about wanting to do what it takes to repair your marriage.</I><P>No, I haven’t… I really don’t think too much of the guy but it might be worth a try.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just remember that you can learn something from <I>anyone</I> if you try hard enough. If the guy believes your marriage can and should be saved, he might be your best ally.<BR>

Folks and Blindsided 123:<P>Tonight I am praying for a miracle. God is working his plan. I offered the wife an opportunity to talk to the counselor and she took it. I am grateful.<P>The counselor is tough, pragmatic, intelligent and loves God it seems to me.<P>I suppose this is Plan A in action.<P>I believe doing what I am doing is the right thing to do. If it is the right thing to do it will turn out right... either way.<P>If you pray, do please pray for a continuing miracle. Pray that I will be wise, and kind and strong. Pray that I will keep my wits about me and not let confusion enter my words, thought, and deeds in this confusing, muddled mess. I know we can't go on the way things are or the way things have been.<P>As I said when I started this thread, if nothing else it is cathartic... instead it has been supportive and useful. Funny place to bear your soul isn't it?<P>I will appreciate the continuing support and suggestions and know I will need them no matter what happens next and next and next... I am at the beginning of a long road but I don't know where it goes just now... I am walking it by Faith.<P>Curt

Curt- <BR> Nothing else really to say but "good luck" and may God be with you. You and your wife will be in my thoughts and prayers. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

Dear Blindsided:<P>Thanks very much. I broke off work about 2100 hrs and need to get a bill or two paid adn some other work done tonight... it seems like stuff never ends when you have a business of any kind.<P>I'm hoping for the best and as I said, walking by Faith. Remember the old hym, "Trust and obey for there's no other way..." They don't sing as many of those anymore... all charasmitic stuff.<P>Hope you are doing well this night, had a productive day, met new people, had some company and at least a few heartflet laughs.<P>Wouldn't it be great if we could be as close to God all the time as we are when we are in trouble? Pretty ungrateful children aren't we?<P>Always do right; this will gratify some people and astonish the rest.<BR>- Note to the Young People's Society, Greenpoint Presbyterian Church, 1901<BR>Mark Twain<P>Curt<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blindsided123:<BR><B>Curt- <BR> Nothing else really to say but "good luck" and may God be with you. You and your wife will be in my thoughts and prayers. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

In the continuing saga.<P>Bad news. The counselor that I and the wife went to and seemed to have some encouragement with was robbed at gun piont and beaten last night.<P>My friend that has helped me so much is having medical problems.<P>I ask you to send out a prayer for their health.<P>Funny, God knows what we need so why do we have to tell him?<BR>

Curt- <BR> Just a note to check on you and your situation. Give me an e-mail if you are online. arm6868@yahoo.com

Curt,<P>Hello from a fellow Houstonian.<P>I've just now read through your thread. I don't have any great insights, but do have a couple of thoughts.<P>I tend to separate the source of marital problems into 3 basic areas. First is basic incompatibility. I think a lot of times you have two needy people meet and marry who are good at meeting a couple of each other's ENs, but who may not really be a good match in terms of personality type and being able to meet all of each other's important ENs. Basic personality types may not be very changeable, but such differences can usually still be overcome.<P>The second area might be called disfunctionality. I'm referring to mental illness, FOO (family of origin) issues, general lack of character, substance abuse and other things which keep a person from being able to be what they should be. The Harleys would recognize these as issues, but their methods aren't designed to address them. You'll have to find other resources to help with these types of issues, depending on the issue.<P>The third area I tend to call relationship dynamics. This relates to what are my needs, what are my spouses needs, and how can we learn to doing a better job of meeting them for each other? If the first two areas are not major problems, the Harley methods are very effective at addressing this and rebuilding your love for one another. I encourage you to not just read the posts here, but to keep reading the materials on the main Marriage Builders web site, to keep the Harley principles fresh in your mind.<P>One thing which was said earlier in the thread seems worth repeating: the need for patience. In Harley terms you need to keep making deposits in your wife's emotional bank account. The thing is (using arbitrary numbers), you can go from a balance of -200 to say 500 in her love bank and see very little difference. Suddenly at 550 she begins to feel and act much differently toward you. The critical thing to realize is that something is happening as you keep making deposits, even though it may not be evident for some time.<P>BTW if think you discovered how to reply to a post with a quote, but you don't have to leave the whole post you're replying to in your reply. You can start the quote and bold by using "QUOTE" and "b" but using brackets "[" and "]" instead of the quote marks. End the quote and bold with "/QUOTE" and "/b", again with brackets instead of quotes. If I actually type the brackets, it will do what I'm talking about but you won't see how. Doing this, you can quote a couple of sentences, reply, quote some more, etc. Makes it much more readable. Anything you don't want to reply to from the original post you can just highlight and delete. If I've confused you, try this link: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ubbcode.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ubbcode.html</A> <P>Anyway, I'm not sure that I have much insight to offer, but maybe something I've said will help in your attempts to understand the best course of action.<P>Good luck,<P>Steve<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited February 04, 2001).]

Steve:<P>I continue to be amazed by the quality and thoughtfulness of the replies posted on this board. Yours is no less than others.<P>I'm just chipping away at it and trying to find out what is wrong.<P>Thanks for the considerable thought you gave.<P>Curt