In my wife’s response to my interrogatory asking for specifics on her claimed grounds for divorce, she accused me of stalking. Leaving aside the fact that in the locations she specified, I laid in wait for her exactly one time (to get a signature on a tax form), the idea that I am a stalker is disturbing for its irrefutability. This is what I found on <A HREF="http://www.antistalking.com" TARGET=_blank>The Antistalking Web Site</A>:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Intimate partner stalkers are typically known as the guy who "just can’t let go." These are most often men who refuse to believe that a relationship has really ended. Often, other people - even the victims - feel sorry for them. But they shouldn’t. Studies show that the vast majority of these stalkers are not sympathetic, lonely people who are still hopelessly in love, but were in fact emotionally abusive and controlling during the relationship. Many have criminal histories unrelated to stalking. Well over half of stalkers fall into this "former intimate partner" category.<P>In these types of stalking cases, the victim may, in fact, unwittingly encourage the stalker by trying to "let him down easy," or agreeing to talk to him "just one more time." What victims need to understand is that there is no reasoning with stalkers. Just the fact that stalking - an unreasonable activity - has already begun, illustrates this fact. When the victim says, "I don’t want a relationship now," the stalker hears, "She’ll want me again, tomorrow." When she says, "I just need some space," he hears, "If I just let her go out with her friends, she’ll come back." "It’s just not working out," is heard as "we can make it work out." In other words, the only thing to say to the stalker is "no." No explanations, no time limits, no room to maneuver. <P>A victim should say "no" once and only once. And then, never say anything to him again. If a stalker can’t have his victim’s love, he’ll take her hatred or her fear. The worst thing in the world for him is to be ignored. Think of little children: If they’re not getting the attention they want, they’ll act out and misbehave because even negative attention is better than none at all. Former intimate partner stalkers have their entire sense of self-worth caught up in the fact that, "she loves me." Therefore, any evidence to the contrary is seen as merely an inconvenience to overcome. Since giving up his victim means giving up his self-worth, he is very unlikely to do so. Don’t help him hang on.<P>There are cases in which stalking lasts for years and years and never turns violent. Then, there are those cases that turn deadly quickly. How can you tell which cases will lead to murder?<P>First of all, the cases that seem harmless, may, in fact, be the most deadly… Most stalking victims erroneously believe that if they have not been threatened, they are not in any danger. Here’s a question, then: If he really wanted to harm you, why would he warn you ahead of time? Conversely, think about the many, many times in your own life that you threatened someone and then didn’t follow through on the threat. Never happened? What about that jerk who cut you off on the highway last week? Didn’t you threaten to – well, never mind. The point is, study after study indicates that whether or not a stalker makes a threat has no bearing on whether or not he poses a threat... Additionally, it is a false belief that if a perpetrator has no history of violence, the likelihood of his becoming violent in the future is small… While a past history of violence…is an important factor in increasing the risk of future violence, the absence of such a history is completely meaningless. After all, a history of violence is notably lacking before the first time anyone perpetrates a violent act.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It may or may not be significant that my wife is doing <I>exactly</I> what she is supposed to do, if we assume that I am, in fact, a stalker. What really makes me sad is the idea of my poor wife cowering in terror somewhere in constant fear of this monster (me) who might burst in at any moment and murder her; when in reality I am just a committed, loving, patient husband with no history of, or inclination toward, violence.<P>The problem is compounded by my wife’s further accusations that I was emotionally abusive and controlling. Again, any halfway objective assessment of the facts would reveal that I was extremely supportive of my wife and that she had extraordinary freedom to do whatever she wanted to do. (Frankly, I would <I>love</I> to have my wife’s accusations examined in any forum at all.)<P>Is there any way at all to allay my wife’s fears? (Or mine, for that matter? I feel like I need to keep looking over my shoulder for a lynch mob. According to Ohio’s antistalking laws, I can be convicted of menacing simply by “engaging in a pattern of conduct” that will lead her to believe I will cause her “mental distress”. I am concerned that my <I>breathing</I> might be considered such a pattern of conduct…)<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>So what's the glory in living?<BR>Doesn't anybody ever stay together any more?<BR>And if love doesn't last forever, tell me<BR>What's forever for?</I> - Rafe Van Hoy

With this subject it seems that we are in the "when did you stop beating your wife" stage. Somewhat like domestic violence, even the thought that you might commit either one of these acts is a basis for all kinds of findings against you. The pendulum has swung so far to one side that there are many accusations, like yours, that are totally groundless or people are seeing what they want to see.<P>Now don't get me wrong. People who engage in these behaviors should get help. But lets not convict you because you look at your wife cross-eyed.

GdP,<P>if those are the facts that an unbiased observer would make, your W has some form of mental illness, not sure what it is, could be paranoia, could be hysteria, could be a bunch of different things. I have a feeling you would be in this situation no matter what you did, since, if those are the facts, it has nothing to do with you.<P>WIFTTy

Those are <I>unquestionably</I> the conclusions an unbiased observer would reach, but I don't think my wife has a mental illness, if by that you mean something biochemically based. And although I <I>do</I> suspect that I might be in this situation no matter what I did, I have no doubt that I contributed to the problem.<P>I believe I have a very good idea about what is going on with my wife psychologically; the patterns are readily identifiable and the mechanisms are fairly well understood. The simplified version is that she is deep in "the fog".<BR>

In a "fog"?<P>If you mean: <BR>a pattern of irrational behavior, <BR>punctuated by periods of heart warming sweetness, <BR>scattered amongst even longer periods of pushing your buttons to elevate you to ever higher levels of frustration and anger <BR>and <BR>dominated by any problem she may have that is mentioned by you immediately being turned around and becoming your problem <BR>and <BR>a total denial of she doing anything wrong ever.<P>I suppose my wife is in a "fog". But does it have a name or is it just plan meaness manifest in a disfunctional personality?

The weird thing is that my wife <I>could</I> have cited believable grounds (such as neglect of duty stemming from my depression), or she could have accused me of doing things to her in private that would just be her word against mine. Instead she made really strange allegations that <I>anyone who knows her</I> would <I>know</I> aren't true.<P>I suspect she <I>needs</I> to believe that I am a stalker and abuser in order to justify her actions. She doesn't dare have any communication with me because her schema is too out-of-sync with reality to sustain any examination at all. For the same reason she has had to cut herself off from everyone who knows both of us (except her family) and/or who might possibly question her (her family are enablers, so they're "safe").<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helpifyoucan:<BR><B>In a "fog"?<P>If you mean: <BR>a pattern of irrational behavior, <BR>punctuated by periods of heart warming sweetness, <BR>scattered amongst even longer periods of pushing your buttons to elevate you to ever higher levels of frustration and anger <BR>and <BR>dominated by any problem she may have that is mentioned by you immediately being turned around and becoming your problem <BR>and <BR>a total denial of she doing anything wrong ever.<P>I suppose my wife is in a "fog". But does it have a name or is it just plan meaness manifest in a disfunctional personality?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, yeah, all of that, except that her denial of doing anything wrong alternated with episodes of blaming herself for everything. And overall there was more sweetness than button-pushing.<P>But that was <I>before</I> these accusations and fears of abuse started. It has been nearly seven months since I have had <I>any</I> communication with her at all except via our lawyers. And I live one block away from her mother, where she is staying.<P>The term "fog" is useful because there is no single name for what these confused people are experiencing. It is not simple meanness, and calling it dysfunction is no more meaningful than calling it "fog". There are a whole host of terms that describe various elements of these problems: narcissistic regression, dissonance-induced schemas, arrested psychological development, projection and transference, etc., etc.<P>None of these things are really mental illness, per se, and they can all be dealt without medication (unlike bipolar disorder, for example) but they can sure cause havoc...<P>And medication can help in some cases, because there's a mutual feedback relationship between the biochemistry and the psychology. I chose to deal with my depression without medication (although I <I>did</I> try St. John's Wort for several months) because I believed my depression was primarily psychologically based and I didn't want to mask my problems with drugs while I tried to understand them. Maybe that was stupid, but my therapist supported my decision (although my wife wanted me to take medication), and I'm glad I took the approach I did, because I succeeded in getting control over my depression. I expect I'll have to fight it for the rest of my life, but that's OK, because I know I can win!<P>Everybody and every situation is different.<P>But there sure are a lot of similarities too...<BR>

Dear Gnome:<P>Interesting similarities but not the same. When she does realize she is at fault she goes over the top with self blame then flips back to me. Periods of sweetness are all but absent.<P>Depression? Like raging no tomorrow depression? Tell me about it. I fought it, took medication and then fianlly said, "self, enough of this." So I fight it. Ditto, she wants me to take medication like her but I don't need a drug induced euphoira to make it. I too wanted to understand the why instead of putting a band-aid over the problem. Funny, I see now the longer I was / am away from her the better I feel. Coming back from the home state after a short vacation I have almost always been depressed for weeks afterward. I see now is wasn't because of leaving from the trip but coming back to her.... Sad.<P>Counselor told me that my depression was caused by her as is my anger. Interesting, I'm wondering just today why I would take her back... Interesting. Like WC Fields on being drunk, "Yes madam I am drunk but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly." Tomorrow I shall be better but she will still be a fat shrew who snores loudly and has the intellect of a sheep. Pretty petulant huh? So what. Tonight I am pretty pevish, having shopped at Wal-mart with the miscreants of life at 23:45 and worked a 16 hour day I just am not thrilled at the thought of her in the house I built and paid for amongst other things.<P>I believe I deserve better.<P>

helpifyoucan,<P>You made me think when you talked about the miscreants at Walmart. My ex fondly referred to them as the "Atrium Critters." The people who hang out in the outside glass atrium section of Walmart. <P>On the other hand, I laughed then. But now I have to wonder...what did those people do to deserve his animosity?<P>Everyone else,<P>It is a sad, sad world we live in when trying to save your marriage is considered stalking or co-dependent. Sure, I imagine that any behavior can become pathological, however, it seems any reaction to divorce other than "Oh well. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do" is treated as sick.

I believe there is a monumental difference between "stalking" and saving one's marriage. <P>If a person has been separated for several months, the divorce filed, is it appropriate for the spouse to drive by your house at all times of the night to see if your car is in the driveway? If the car is not there is it appropriate for the spouse to call on your cell phone at 4 in the morning? Is it appropriate to be followed in your car? Is it appropriate to have a device installed on your computer so the spouse can read your email from his home? I don't think so; I think this is stalking. My stbxh did all of those nice things and more. I certainly didn't see it as trying to save the marriage. It angered and frightened me.<P><BR>

LonelySoul, the behaviors you describe seem pretty...ineffective... for saving a marriage, but I have to admit that I'm not sure they are altogether inappropriate for someone who hopes that evidence of infidelity can be used advantageously in a divorce action. I am not saying that as a comment on your particular situation, but the fact remains that it is just <I>so</I> difficult to ascertain someone's intent where so-called "stalking" behaviors are concerned. In your shoes, I'd be frightened too; I'm just not sure that criminal charges are warranted.<P>I deliberately gave my wife as wide a berth as possible, in an attempt to avoid arousing any fears she might have; but obviously my forebearance had no effect, as she made up incidents instead. Funny thing, she didn't mention me "following" her in my car, and I <I>did</I> do that a couple of times by accident, when she happened to be heading for the gym at the same time I was heading for work. (As I mentioned, we live a block apart, and the gym is on my way to work.)<P>Now I wonder whether I may have given her too <I>much</I> space, and I am leaning toward starting to send letters to her again. It's possible she might accuse me of harassment, but if I'm going to be accused whether I do anything or not, does it really matter? I would not, of course, write anything that could legitimately be interpreted as a threat.<BR>

Helpifyoucan, the idea that your wife "caused" your depression is not one I'm comfortable with. I have no doubt that the problems in my marriage <I>triggered</I> and <I>contributed to</I> my depression (I remember very clearly what triggered my first major depressive episode), but there was evidence of depressive tendencies in me even before that. And I have come to believe that my depression was really "caused" by my burial of feelings that I believed to be unacceptable, and my refusal to face realities that conflicted with my childhood illusions.<P>To simplistically blame my wife for my depression would be to deny my own role, and it would not be fair to her. She is responsible for her own actions and feelings, and I am responsible for mine. Although initial reactions may be instinctive, our long-term responses to one another are up to us as autonomous individuals, emotionally as well as behaviorally.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Is there any way at all to allay my wife’s fears?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would have your attorney write her attorney a letter telling him that you looked for and in fact did accost her exactly once, for the purpose of obtaining that signature. If your attorney thinks an affidavit would be appropriate, then have him prepare your statement in sworn form.<P><I>If</I> your wife is seeing you behind every bush and parked car, she needs professional help. <I>If</I> you and your attorney show yourselves willing to stick your necks out to tell her that the facts don't support her thinking, then <I>her</I> attorney will hopefully explain to her that people <I>don't</I> send the kind of communique you did where they're lying, and then have the additional presence of mind to strongly suggest professional mental help.<P>You're hardly in a position to force her to do anything, but this is a method that might potentially blow away a little of the fog. And even if it doesn't, a lot of what we do while a spouse is in the fog is not for immediate gratification, but must be for future reference and interpretation on our part and theirs.

GdP,<P>I am weighing in on this one because I have a unique perspective. Your W says that you are stalking, emotionally abusive, and controlling. The unique perspective that I'm bringing here is that I was physically abused as a child (meaning hit with handles and brushes and wooden spoons), as well as being emotionally and verbally abused both as a child and as a wife. Now as a fully grown woman, having gone through lots of counseling etc., I still have a unique need for extra gentleness--more than your average bear, anyway--and in regards to feeling unsafe, I know I'm more sensitive that the average person.<P>GdP, you are looking at events via "FACTS" and she is looking at the same events via "FEELINGS". You might say, "Well, I called her three times (very reasonable) and she refused to take my calls. So, I went down to her job, waited in the parking lot for her to come out of work, and walked up to her in full daylight in front of her co-workers to get her to sign these papers." None of those "facts" may indicate any sort of stalking behavior. <P>However, she looks at the same event through "feelings." Now, there may be a thousand reasons why she has the need for extra gentleness or safety (like me), none of which have to do with the facts of an event. But when she needs you to stay away (let's say you two had argued about those papers) because she feels hurt, and you persist in calling and calling and calling, and then finally you show up at her office and wait for her in the parking lot and maybe she feels embarrassed that all her co-workers SAW you force her to sign something, well, what can I say? Her interpretation of the exact same event, when focused through "feelings" is feeling afraid of you, intimidated by you, and possibly even stalked. If she was hurt, wanted you to stay away and you didn't, did not want you to call and you did, did not want you in her parking lot and you were there waiting, and did not want to sign those papers and you forced her, it caused her "mental distress."<P>I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but no one else seems to be doing it. By objective, factual evaluation you're version sounds very non-threatening and completely reasonable. BUT, when the same event is viewed through her need at the time for gentleness, for softness, or for the feeling of safety, her evaluation is threatening and scary. Here's the wierd part: both are correct! I'm speaking straight to you as a friend, here. It is abusive and controlling to discount her version and feelings about the event, to counter her interpretation with the "real" facts, to trivialize how intimidated or how scared she may have felt, or to deny that it occurred. <P>In your post, you asked, "Is there any way at all to allay my wife’s fears?" The trick is not to say, "it did NOT occur" and then to "prove" to her in a hundred ways how it did not occur. The way to allay her fears is to say to her and to yourself, "My behavior scared my W, and I denied it. I did not mean to scare her, and she is much too valuable to live her life in fear. What can I do to make her feel safe?" <P>I realize that what she needs in order to feel safe may seem excessive (especially at first), but I bet it's much closer to me. Maybe she had/has reasons from her past that make her extra sensitive to gentleness and feeling safe, but as her partner and in order to meet her need, you need to be extra soft and help her feel she is safe with you. You are not, however, responsible to "make her" feel safe. For the sake of sharing, I'll tell you that I personally feel very scared and unsafe when I am in an argument and the other person stands up and points down at me--I feel small and scared (understandable, considering my past and my current diminuitive stature), so I require that talk be eye to eye only. I also personally feel very scared and unsafe when I'm in an argument and anything is pounded or slammed, so I require that once something like that occurs, the discussion is automatically over and I get to go to the bedroom and close the door. See? I'm extra sensitive, but these requirements and sort of reasonable, considering the past, wouldn't you say?<P>So, GdP, here is my challenge to you. Face this demon and honestly ask yourself what you did to scare your W. Don't deny it, don't "prove" that it didn't happen--instead, she has said that she felt stalked, emotionally abused, and controlled. Be honest: what did you do to contribute to that feeling? It's hard to admit to yourself, I know, but if you can do it, you can be on the road to learning how to be a more gentle, soft, safe man.<P>Well, that's not 2 cents, is it? More like $1.50, I'd say.<P><BR>CJ

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Face this demon and honestly ask yourself what you did to scare your W.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I like the details of what goes on in an abuse survivor's mind. But since GDP didn't know he would scare her, he wasn't doing <I>anything</I> to scare her, he merely did an objectively neutral thing that <I>turned out</I> to have scared her. <P>An attorney's letter or an affidavit is the wrong place to get detailed about feelings, but GDP's attorney could include a sentence in the letter to the effect that GDP is now aware that he must have unintentionally caused distress and regrets that he did that, coupled with a pledge to avoid any further such incidents.

gdp,<P>Is your wife involved with anyone else? The reason I ask is because I notice my stbx becomes particularly offensive/cruel towards me when he's spent some uninterrupted "quality" time with his OW. Then, when he's been away from her for a while, he settles down again and becomes more like his predictable old self.<P>I wonder if your wife's accusation is not being fed by an OM who wants you to be not only out of the marriage, but legally held out of the picture via a restraining order. Without a precedent of bad behavior on your part (i.e. stalking accusation), a restraining order might be harder to come by.<P>Just my Nancy Drew instincts...<P>Lisa<P>

I love the way that those who are abusive dismiss and discount the experiences of others! <P>Let's just agree to this: at this time, GdP speaks to his W only through attorneys, she has alleged stalking, and this has concerned GdP. His question was "How do I allay my wife's fears (and his own)?" not "how do I deal with this accusation in a legal manner?" My suggestion to GdP remains the same: honestly ask yourself how you may or may not have contributed and DON'T just assume that since it was "FACTUALLY" non-threatening that it did not "FEEL" threatening. Trust me, shoving it down her throat with an attorney, forcing and "proving" that you never stalked her, will NOT allay her concerns and will not reassure GdP that he is not really a "stalking, emotionally abusive, controlling" kind of guy!<P>I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this, but discounting my experience because I'm "a survivor", trivializing the fact that I dealt with the emotional side rather than the factual side, and denying that my ideas are any less valid than your ideas ARE themselves abusive behavior. I presented this as a challenge to GdP because it requires great bravery to take an honest inventory and say, "IS IT POSSIBLE THAT I DID THIS?" <P>Deal with this via legal eagles all you want, but that will NOT allay your wife's fears and it will not allay your own concerns about whether or not your are a scary person. <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I love the way that those who are abusive dismiss and discount the experiences of others!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope (probably vainly) that you don't believe I dismissed or discounted your experience. <P>And what I suggested had nothing to do with <I>legally</I> handling the allegation: the court isn't going to see this, at least not immediately. I was laboring under the impression that direct contact was out of the question, and that there was no intention to create distress. If the latter is the case, a simple explanation and apology should suffice.<P>He doesn't need to ask himself if it's possible that he scared her. He obviously did. And I'm sure we would all like for him to connect with her emotionally. It can't happen, because nothing that comes directly from him is going to feel safe to her. <P>The only thing that I can think of to do is admit the conduct, deny the intent, apologize for the effect and promise to avoid it in the future. The first two <I>could</I> potentially have the added heft of having been <I>sworn to</I>.<P><I>If</I> a searching moral inventory on GDP's part turns up actual misconduct, he needs to own it and deal with it--including making what amends he can to her. That wasn't what I was reading. He seems to feel <I>falsely</I> accused. Where there's actual merit, that's a different story. In that instance, I'm not sure what he can do yet. He may need to wait until things cool down before trying to go through any of that in any detail.<P>I was in a hurry, so I didn't take the time to say anything more favorable about your post than the fact that I liked reading your point of view. There was no intent to dismiss it, only to point out that where there is no intentionality, there needn't be the kind of soul-searching and deeply-felt apology that is demanded by intentional villainy.<P>I never dismissed FEELINGS, only said they were not appropriately addressed in detail in an attorney's letter or affidavit. And remember, that's about all I think he can do here--direct contact might look like "menacing" to her in her present state. <P>One of the reasons people have attorneys is that communications between them have broken down--they have many roles, and one of those roles is as mediators. So where GDP might wind up standing over her pointing his finger and raising his voice, GDP's attorney instead drafts a factual and conciliatory letter. <P>And STBXW's attorney reads it to her. Where she might take away something menacing from what was said, STBX's attorney instead will, with her trustingly sitting across the desk, calmly tell her, "No, that's not what GDP meant." <P>Do we need something like that here?<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I would have your attorney write her attorney a letter telling him that you looked for and in fact did accost her exactly once, for the purpose of obtaining that signature. If your attorney thinks an affidavit would be appropriate, then have him prepare your statement in sworn form.<P><I>If</I> your wife is seeing you behind every bush and parked car, she needs professional help. <I>If</I> you and your attorney show yourselves willing to stick your necks out to tell her that the facts don't support her thinking, then <I>her</I> attorney will hopefully explain to her that people <I>don't</I> send the kind of communique you did where they're lying, and then have the additional presence of mind to strongly suggest professional mental help.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I already planned to talk to my attorney about the possibility of doing another interrogatory, in which I lay out the facts and ask my wife whether there are any she disputes. I will also ask about other alternatives, such as a letter, an affidavit, or even a deposition (though I would want to hold off on that until after the court makes a ruling on my petition for conciliation).<P>Alas, I have every reason to believe that my wife’s attorney will not do anything at all to help. I <I>know</I> this guy. He was my mother-in-law’s divorce attorney, and I was there to see how he handles his job. I got the strong impression that he is in this profession for his own ego gratification. He treats his clients patronizingly, and he loves to fight. (One “joke” among the other divorce attorneys is that if he is opposing counsel and you want to settle, you need to start by offering him 90%.) Furthermore, he doesn’t <I>do</I> his job if he can help it. He’s uncommunicative with his clients and he sits on paperwork for ages.<P>To get some idea of this guy’s attitude, let me tell you about what happened a few weeks ago, when we had two back-to-back hearings scheduled (actually pre-trial conferences). At the time I was ordered to pay temporary spousal support, my wife was also ordered to make the payments on the car she drives, so I brought the payment booklet with me to the courthouse. (If I mailed it to her, I had no confidence that she would open it and see what it was; and if I gave it to her attorney, I had no idea if or when she might get it.)<P>After the first hearing, while my wife, her lawyer, and her brother were waiting for the elevator to go up to the next one, I approached them intending to give the payment booklet to my wife. I had waited until then because I was looking for an opportunity when she was with her attorney but not conferring with him, so that she would feel safe and so that it would be difficult to accuse me of harassment.<P>When he saw me approaching, my wife’s attorney started waving his hands at me and making scolding sounds. I told him that I was just going to give something to my wife, and he told me I couldn’t do that. So I said “OK, I’ll give it to you, and she can listen” as I explained what it was. He didn’t want me to give it to him either. He wanted me to give it to <I>my</I> attorney. (I, my wife, my wife’s attorney, and my attorney were all standing in a small circle by then.) So I said, “OK, I’ll give it to <I>her</I>, and <I>you</I> can listen.” Then I finally got a chance to explain what I had for my wife, and he held out his hand and accepted it. At this point the elevator arrived, and my wife, her brother, and her lawyer got on. I started to follow and he said “No, no, you take the elevator at the other end of the building.” My lawyer interjected at this point and said we’d just wait for the next one. I was laughing too hard by then to say anything.<BR> <BR>I’m not sure what mayhem he thought I might commit in that elevator with everyone else present, but the <I>really</I> funny thing is that once we got up to the top floor of the courthouse and the lawyers went in for their conference, a considerable period of time elapsed in which the hall outside the conference room was empty except for me sitting on one bench, and my wife and her brother sitting on another bench. I can’t see the “protection” my wife’s lawyer was providing her as anything other than a would-be alpha male strutting his stuff.<P>I don’t think that’s the kind of person who is going to be giving any thought to what’s actually in my wife’s best interests. He just wants to win.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You're hardly in a position to force her to do anything, but this is a method that might potentially blow away a little of the fog. And even if it doesn't, a lot of what we do while a spouse is in the fog is not for immediate gratification, but must be for future reference and interpretation on our part and theirs.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At this time, I believe my wife will use anything and everything I do or don't do against me. Thus, all my decisions are based on the hopeful premise that at some point in the (possibly distant) future the fog will clear, and at <I>that</I> time my wife will remember how I conducted myself during this crisis.<P>I want my wife to remember that I was willing to give her however much time and space she required, making no demands on her. I want my wife to remember that I fought with utmost integrity for <I>her</I> best interests, not shirking from defending myself and the truth, but not attacking her. (This goal made finding the right lawyer very critical.) I want my wife to remember that I never gave up on her, that I never doubted her ability to come to terms with <I>both</I> the truth <I>and</I> her own feelings.<P>On the one hand, I am trying to do everything I can think of to get my wife to address some very searching questions. And on the other hand, I am trying to do everything I can to assure her of my love, forgiveness, goodwill, steadfastness, and patience.<P>I view all the legal shenanigans as tools and/or obstacles to these ends. The divorce itself ends up being a relatively minor incidental.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I am weighing in on this one because I have a unique perspective. Your W says that you are stalking, emotionally abusive, and controlling. The unique perspective that I'm bringing here is that I was physically abused as a child (meaning hit with handles and brushes and wooden spoons), as well as being emotionally and verbally abused both as a child and as a wife. Now as a fully grown woman, having gone through lots of counseling etc., I still have a unique need for extra gentleness--more than your average bear, anyway--and in regards to feeling unsafe, I know I'm more sensitive that the average person.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I very much appreciate input from someone with your experiences, since you can provide insights otherwise unavailable to me. This is especially true given your understanding of how your experiences have affected your needs. I only wish my wife would find some way of gaining a similar understanding.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>GdP, you are looking at events via "FACTS" and she is looking at the same events via "FEELINGS". You might say, "Well, I called her three times (very reasonable) and she refused to take my calls. So, I went down to her job, waited in the parking lot for her to come out of work, and walked up to her in full daylight in front of her co-workers to get her to sign these papers." None of those "facts" may indicate any sort of stalking behavior.<P>However, she looks at the same event through "feelings.” Now, there may be a thousand reasons why she has the need for extra gentleness or safety (like me), none of which have to do with the facts of an event. But when she needs you to stay away (let's say you two had argued about those papers) because she feels hurt, and you persist in calling and calling and calling, and then finally you show up at her office and wait for her in the parking lot and maybe she feels embarrassed that all her co-workers SAW you force her to sign something, well, what can I say? Her interpretation of the exact same event, when focused through "feelings" is feeling afraid of you, intimidated by you, and possibly even stalked. If she was hurt, wanted you to stay away and you didn't, did not want you to call and you did, did not want you in her parking lot and you were there waiting, and did not want to sign those papers and you forced her, it caused her "mental distress."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am <I>very</I> much aware that this is what is happening. The problem for me is that I don’t see how I could have been expected to know that I was causing my wife mental distress when nobody ever <I>told</I> me. I kept calling because nobody answered the phone, and I couldn’t be sure that anyone was available to answer it or not. My wife did not <I>express</I> any fear to me, and I was oblivious to any non-verbal signals there may have been. There were no raised voices or embarrassing scenes; and as far as I know, my wife had no problems with signing the papers (although I suppose she could have been too intimidated to protest, if she had had any reason to do so). I waited for her in the <I>gym</I> parking lot because I did not want to cause her unnecessary stress at work (and remember that <I>I</I> worked there too, so my presence at neither the gym nor the workplace was anything to be remarked at).<P>When my wife moved out, she left me a note saying she loved me and wanted to always be friends. It wasn’t until after the third (and last) time I talked to her that I realized that this was no longer true, that she was instead determined to excise me from her life. I had approached her that time simply to ask her to take care of our pet while I was out of town on business, and coming home to find that no one had been there was a clear enough message to get through even <I>my</I> thick skull.<P>It comes down to communication. I am capable of listening well, but I am <I>not</I> good at reading subliminal signals. A lot of unnecessary stress resulted.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but no one else seems to be doing it. By objective, factual evaluation you're version sounds very non-threatening and completely reasonable. BUT, when the same event is viewed through her need at the time for gentleness, for softness, or for the feeling of safety, her evaluation is threatening and scary. Here's the wierd part: both are correct! I'm speaking straight to you as a friend, here. It is abusive and controlling to discount her version and feelings about the event, to counter her interpretation with the "real" facts, to trivialize how intimidated or how scared she may have felt, or to deny that it occurred.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There’s no need to step softly where I’m concerned. I am very receptive to ideas and criticism, and I have no trouble admitting it when I am in the wrong. Believe it or not, I <I>understand</I> that both viewpoints are sensible, and I have lost count of the number of times I have defended my wife’s attitudes to my friends on that basis. I recognize the reality of my wife’s feelings. I just keep coming back to the quote “Feelings are to be taken seriously, but not literally.”<P>What bothers me about the labels (such as ‘stalking’) is that labels tend to objectify the subjective. I have no doubt that my wife has valid reasons to feel afraid, but that doesn’t mean that I am actually a danger to her. And yet, calling me a stalker carries that strong implication.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>In your post, you asked, "Is there any way at all to allay my wife’s fears?" The trick is not to say, "it did NOT occur" and then to "prove" to her in a hundred ways how it did not occur. The way to allay her fears is to say to her and to yourself, "My behavior scared my W, and I denied it. I did not mean to scare her, and she is much too valuable to live her life in fear. What can I do to make her feel safe?"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What I have said to myself, what I would <I>love</I> to have the opportunity to communicate to my wife, is: “My behavior scared my wife, and I <I>did not know it</I>. I did not mean to scare her, and she is much too precious to live her life in fear. What can I do to make her feel safe?” I never denied my wife’s fear, and I do not deny that my actions triggered her fear. My expressed desire to allay my wife’s fears carries within it an implicit acknowledgement of the <I>reality</I> of her fears.<P><I>Some</I> of the accusations my wife has made are entirely fabricated, and I don’t think “it is abusive and controlling to discount her version” of those nonexistent events. (Even there, though, I think it would be more useful to examine <I>why</I> she felt compelled to lie to herself in this manner, since that kind of fabrication indicates that some very real and very powerful feelings are operative.) <I>Other</I> accusations my wife has made are rooted in real events (though often severely distorted as to the facts), and I don’t think I am invalidating her feelings by denying malevolent <I>intent</I>. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I realize that what she needs in order to feel safe may seem excessive (especially at first), but I bet it's much closer to me. Maybe she had/has reasons from her past that make her extra sensitive to gentleness and feeling safe, but as her partner and in order to meet her need, you need to be extra soft and help her feel she is safe with you. You are not, however, responsible to "make her" feel safe. For the sake of sharing, I'll tell you that I personally feel very scared and unsafe when I am in an argument and the other person stands up and points down at me--I feel small and scared (understandable, considering my past and my current diminuitive stature), so I require that talk be eye to eye only. I also personally feel very scared and unsafe when I'm in an argument and anything is pounded or slammed, so I require that once something like that occurs, the discussion is automatically over and I get to go to the bedroom and close the door. See? I'm extra sensitive, but these requirements and sort of reasonable, considering the past, wouldn't you say?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>These requirements are completely reasonable, and I have no problem with the idea of accommodating my behavior to whatever she needs to feel safe. The difficulty I have had is in figuring out what those accommodations <I>are</I>. Time and again, I have demonstrated an ability to change my behavior when <I>specific</I> changes are requested (although I must admit that some changes have taken longer to effect than others, old habits being hard to break). When my wife left, she actually acknowledged how hard I had tried to be a good husband. Now though, it seems that she’s forgotten that…<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So, GdP, here is my challenge to you. Face this demon and honestly ask yourself what you did to scare your W. Don't deny it, don't "prove" that it didn't happen--instead, she has said that she felt stalked, emotionally abused, and controlled. Be honest: what did you do to contribute to that feeling? It's hard to admit to yourself, I know, but if you can do it, you can be on the road to learning how to be a more gentle, soft, safe man.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This isn’t nearly as much of a challenge as you might think. I’ve had a lot of time to reflect on how my actions may have interacted with my wife’s vulnerabilities. I only wish my wife had been able to communicate her feelings to me in a way I could understand, and given me a chance to make (more) adjustments. In actuality, though, I don’t think she knew what was going on herself. A lot of what we talked about in therapy turned out to be red herrings…<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Well, that's not 2 cents, is it? More like $1.50, I'd say.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And cheap at the price! I could have paid well over a hundred dollars for this kind of input from a therapist!<BR>