A quick intro for those unfamiliar: I was divorced by my XW mid-'00--short version is for her tastes, I wasn't successful enough at my own business. Think of me as <I>Niles</I> and her as <I>Maris</I>, with negligible differences.<P>There were some housekeeping details left over at the end of the marriage, credit, car title, money owed--mostly in my favor. In my depression, I was in no hurry. <I>She</I> made attempts to contact me, I wasn't answering the phone, although I did so at last, and was in more or less regular e-mail contact. But she would pretty much have to show up unannounced at my condo to get anything done. At which point I was cordial, but I would go into a 24-48 tailspin after that. Gradually recovering, I even babysat the X-dog over a weekend for her (I was certainly worty of contact when I could be <I>of use</I>). She explored moving to Milan, gave it up and returned to her old job as an outside contractor.<P>Since the beginning of October, I have been with new GF, and she moved in during November. Things are great. <P>I gave XW our '99 1040 in mid-October (final extension due date), but she held it and didn't sign. In December, a family secret of hers became too much for me to carry. I asked her to work with me on a way to warn people who needed warning about it. I got silence, so about a month later I sent an anonymous letter that didn't even identify her, but did identify a relative who needed guarding against. I timely notified XW of this to preserve her <I>deniability</I> and minimize <I>surprise</I>. After that, communication from her side <I>ceased</I>. I made regular attempts to contact her, she at first didn't return messages, blocked my calls to her cell phone, then changed numbers. E-mails went unanswered. Mind you there were no threats, nothing unfriendly, although during bouts of anger, I have discussed on this board the possibility of sending a damning item in my possession to her boss. I believe she may lurk here, and may have seen the thread(s) where that was mentioned. And what wound up happening was her attorney wrote me a letter telling me to stop trying to contact her, and citing a <B>bulletproof</B> <I>anti-harrassment</I> clause in our marital settlement agreement that I myself drafted ... the silver lining was he laid out a path to getting the other matters resolved--but now their cooperation is lagging, and I need a car title by the end of the month.<P><B>NOW TO THE ACTION:</B> Last night, GF and I went to drop some videos off at Blockbuster and do some shopping at Publix Supermarket. Although I haven't laid eyes on XW since October, it was almost inevitable that eventually there would be an encounter because that's XW's closest Publix (I often shop a larger Publix <I>nearly</I> as close for me, but there's no Blockbuster near it).<P>So we dropped the videos at Blockbuster in this particular center, and the long lines there motivated us to go through Publix before coming back to rent a fresh DVD (we did the DVD-a-day 30 days $20 deal). When we exited Publix with the cart, who should be rounding the corner right up front but XW in her funereal-black Saab convertible (this shopping center is shoehorned onto a tiny, irregular site, and the parking lot traffic flow is indescribably convoluted. XW almost <I>had</I> to pass by the front door). On the phone. Either not seeing us, or pretending she didn't. <P>New GF <I>knows</I> XW has caused meltdowns in the past, so she's now trying to see if I am going to keep it together or not. Meanwhile, I'm <I>OK</I>. So we take the groceries to our car in the ancillary lot, and head back across to Blockbuster. Turns out XW has parked more-or-less opposite Blockbuster, but not so we have to walk right past. I get a glimpse of an occupant still in the driver's seat, and remark to GF that XW can take some time to get out of a car (due to arthritis). We enter Blockbuster, and in about 5 minutes we're through the line and back out with our DVD. There's lots of glare from the mercury-vapor lights on the windshield, but I look over, and 40 or so feet away there's <I>still</I> an occupant in her parked Saab. With growing apprehension, I tell GF that XW is still in there. We're now 30 feet away, about as close as we're going to get without me <I>intentionally</I> approaching, and it's clear to me that XW sees me, and is on the phone. I ask GF how she wants to handle it. It's a delicate moment, because GF is somewhat insecure that XW could potentially reel me back in. I don't want to <I>force</I> her to meet XW, but I don't want to make it seem as though I'm ashamed of her or hiding her from XW either--neither of which would make GF feel more secure, or for that matter, garner any <I>respect</I> from XW. <P>GF tells me to do whatever I think best. I take a step or two toward the Saab. Visibility is still poor, but I can see <I>waving</I> going on. Whether it's <I>beckoning</I> or <I>warding off</I> isn't clear, but in context I assume the latter (if she were <I>friendly</I> or even if she <I>wanted to give me a piece of her mind</I>, she could just pop the door and at least step out). So I turn on my heel and head toward my car again. As her car starts up (and if I'm now walking away, why not just <I>wait</I> for my departure, and continue with shopping as usual?), GF worries that XW might try to <I>run us down</I>, but realistically in that parking lot there's near-perpetual gridlock so it's not really a concern of mine. <P>We get to my car, start it up, and my main worry is that XW will <I>tail</I> me for some inscrutable reason, so I use the most direct route out of the area, which happens to require going around the block. One of the turns I make also passes a long, poorly lighted exit from the center, and as I pass it I can see a set of headlights and a yellow side-marker that are consistent with a Saab about halfway back there. Cursing my haste for being direct rather than circuitous, I approach the red light at the end of the block, expecting XW to zoom right up to my back bumper, but instead I see her turn into the parking lot of the adjacent Walgreens. But if XW had wanted to go straight home, she would have hung a <I>hard left</I> and turned <I>completely</I> away from us. If Publix were still on her mind, I think she could have turned around. <P>So as usual, I'm left with questions, and wondering if I'll get some kind of scalding communique from her lawyer. And I've got 3 more weeks of Blockbuster visits! Is there anything I <I>should</I> or <I>shouldn't</I> do beyond just letting this <I>drop</I>?<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 19, 2001).]

If you didn't still have feelings for your XW, this thread would not have occurred.<P>I feel sorry for your current GF, although she was "warned". I don't necessarily think you are going back to your XW, but I do think you are using your GF. But, like I said, she's been warned. Apparently neither one of you has problems using each other. Se la vie.

Sisyphus,<BR>I would let it drop if I were you. Just continue to avoid her and don't approach her. Does the order have a distance clause?????<P>My "run in" with x last week seems to have worked somewhat. She left a not this am that she has switched her work day and will be home the day I am out of town. She also is taking the kids Tues nite now instead of Wed because she was working part of the time anyhow.<P>I am not sure if she came into the house this morning or not as I was in the shower. Sat when she came, she called on her cell phone from the driveway.

Sisyphus -<P>*So as usual, I'm left with questions...<P>What happened w/your GF after? You mention what your actions were, I hope that her statement of *do whatever you think best" was not a way for her to retreat. I can't help thinking about how she must have felt, you taking a step *TOWARDS* the XW at that moment. <P>Although I don't agree with Student on you *using* your new GF, what were you planning on doing when you got to the car (had the XW not driven away)? <P>I would think your GF is left with many questions as well.<P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

Feelings are <I>faded</I>, mainly just a need to <I>wrap up</I> and a wish to regard and be regarded with equanimity, not <I>wrenching</I> emotions for either XW or me.<P>And there is no <I>order</I>, there's just a contractual provision <I>I</I> drafted ... mainly because I foresaw that I wouldn't want to hear from her. That was anticipating a <I>poor choice</I> that at the time I thought was the way I was going to want things to be. And it's the way it basically is now--and now I want it that way--but it's been a long road to get there, and I think if I had it to do over again I would take a different course--although that would have denied me new GF. I'm not <I>using</I> my GF. We are very well matched and happy together. She is the <I>silver lining</I> in this whole mess. But if I had my druthers from a moral standpoint rather than a <I>selfish</I> one, I would still be married, and happily so, and not having faced these crises. <P>But remember too, that when the crisis was at its worst, I was honoring XW's demand not to be on boards like this, so it was just me, her, her many confidants (including a suspected <I>EA</I> I've never confirmed), and my shrink (I think <I>Marriagebuilders</I> or some of the other boards really would have helped if I had stuck with them--<I>dcope/impulsive</I> over on the <I>EN</I> boards seems to be walking the tightrope I fell off). And she broke off joint sessions with my shrink after one or two (back there in all that confusion I can't remember how many). Now, I just feel <I>lucky</I> to have survived.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galatea:<BR><B>What happened w/your GF after? You mention what your actions were, I hope that her statement of *do whatever you think best" was not a way for her to retreat. I can't help thinking about how she must have felt, you taking a step *TOWARDS* the XW at that moment. <P>Although I don't agree with Student on you *using* your new GF, what were you planning on doing when you got to the car (had the XW not driven away)? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was hoping to introduce new GF (like a regular human being, not to show her off like a trophy or hide her like a creep would hide a trailer slut), and have a brief, civil discussion about <I><B>where is my car title you've been dodging signing?</B></I> Obviously, that didn't happen.<P>New GF has heard enough tales of erratic behavior on <B>both</B> sides to be apprehensive about just where the encounter would lead. As it broke off, she was just concerned with making sure <I>I</I> was <I>OK</I>.<P>

Sis -<P>Do you really think approaching the XW and asking about the car title would have been appropriate at that juncture? Especially given the fact that the XW has enacted the anti-harrasment clause? <P>In regards to the GF, is she aware of your feelings in regards to your marriage? <P>*But if I had my druthers from a moral standpoint rather than a selfish one, I would still be married, and happily so, and not having faced these crises. *<P>Yikes! It sounds as if you still want to be married to the XW and so what role is the new GF playing in all of this? You stated she *Moved in in November*, so it must be serious, or are you simply replacing one with another here? Sounds to me like some soul searching may be in dire need here on your part. Good luck! <P><P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

TS,<BR>Isn't your reply a contradiction to your regular replies???? <BR>You usually indicate that we that date after the divorce are usually happy the divorce occured and that we must not have been in love in with our spouse anyhow. How can Sisphyus still have feelings for xw if he now dating????<P>Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galatea:<BR><B>Do you really think approaching the XW and asking about the car title would have been appropriate at that juncture? Especially given the fact that the XW has enacted the anti-harrasment clause? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wasn't really worried about the contract, or what was appropriate from XW's perspective. Her choices and behavior have negated any regard I had for her feelings, and right now I'll do what I have to do in order to get what's owed me; and I <I>won't</I> sacrifice my GF's dignity and security in <I>our</I> relationship to scuttle away from XW--rather than walking up like a man and letting her <I>know</I> where she and I stand. <P>XW certainly hasn't had much regard for the agreement except when it served <I>her</I> convenience. Would she fear anything <I>physical</I> from me? In a crowded parking lot, with GF in tow? C'mon. And even if she <I>did</I>, her unreasoning response is not <I>my</I> responsibility.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In regards to the GF, is she aware of your feelings in regards to your marriage? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We're very open. She knows I wish the divorce hadn't happened. And she understands that those feelings do not diminish her new role. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>*But if I had my druthers from a moral standpoint rather than a selfish one, I would still be married, and happily so, and not having faced these crises. *</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't confuse <I>regret</I> with lingering attachment--it's <I>long over</I> now, and I know I'm <I>happier</I> this way.

Sis -<P>Sounds like you have gone through alot with all of this. It also sounds like you are very open and honest, if your GF is as you say she is, don't let her go )! You both are lucky if you are as open as you say. <BR>Best of luck to you both!<BR><P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

I kicked the hornet's nest and added the following to an e-mail I sent her lawyer about a check for her that came to my mailbox:<P>"Also, there was a chance(?) encounter with your client arriving last night at the <location> Publix/Blockbuster just as we were finishing Publix and then returning to Blockbuster after loading the groceries in our car. My girlfriend and I went about our business, however, your client seemed reluctant to do the same. Which put me in the awkward position of having to attempt to ascertain why your client was remaining in her car observing us, during times when she could have easily entered Publix without any encounter (had she entered Blockbuster, it would have been well ahead of me, and I would have noted it and steered clear). <P>It seemed a moment for civilized acknowledgement and an introduction, rather than for scuttling away; however, it appeared your client was waving me off, so I did not go out of my way to approach her vehicle. However, she apparently thought it worthwhile to attempt to intercept my departing vehicle for one last look-see (I'm beginning to suspect that having spotted the car I drive [her old one] in the parking lot while we were shopping Publix, she circled, hoping to observe us without being observed herself--and got caught). <P>I won't comment further on her behavior, except to say that I felt harrassed and that my privacy was invaded; and if your client wants the Marital Settlement Agreement honored, she should be willing to honor it herself. Although I am open to *any* contact from her that is within the ambit of how our mothers taught us to behave, if she is going to do the type of thing she did last night, I would rather she depart any area she finds me using. And I'll say it right here: I have 3 weeks left on a 30-day DVD rental promotion at that Blockbuster, and I'll be there sometime (most likely late-afternoon/early evening) to pick up a DVD every day that I can make it."

Hi Sis,<P>...and why did you stir the hornets nest?<P>I only ask because... doesn't this constant (not so good-natured) bantering back and forth between you and the lawyer make things difficult for you on a daily basis?<P>God, all *I* want is some peace... isn't that what we all want?<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sis -<P>Are you a glutton for punishment? It might have been better that you mentioned it first now that I think about it. Not allowing the XW any opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill? <P>It is very confusing why you did write the email though. <BR>My thoughts drift to the reason you may want to prolong this vis-a-vis wrap it all up. Is stoking the hornet's nest the best way to wrap it up or does it only prolong the process? Your motives seem suspect due to this.<P>What do you really want here? <BR><P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by new_beginning:<BR><B>...and why did you stir the hornets nest?<P>I only ask because... doesn't this constant (not so good-natured) bantering back and forth between you and the lawyer make things difficult for you on a daily basis?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, since she's apparently behaving irrationally (the more I thought about it, the more <I>I</I> felt stalked), I felt it important to document it with her lawyer prior to (or at least relatively contermporaneously with), her causing <I>him</I> to write me something giving me a bunch of legal threats because he got only <I>her</I> side. <P>I'm not going to let her shape circumstances to trammel me. I certainly have no intention of doing so to her. <P>If we can act like grownups (when last I checked, we actually were in grown up [perhaps even declining] bodies), there's gonna be a lot less <I>angst</I>.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 19, 2001).]

Sisyphus,<P>I gotta go with The Student on this one... You are way too focused on your XW's actions, and I think your GF is being made to suffer from this, even if she doesn't show it yet.<P>I don't think your XW was stalking you. I think she was probably surprized to run into you, she probably was trying to avoid talking to you, and she tried to wave you off when you approached. What's wrong with that?<P>Instead, you subject your GF to all sorts of confusion, circle the parking lot, play detective regarding which way your XW turned her car, etc.<P>It's one thing to wonder about what your XW thinks or does, but you seem to obsess about it, and worse, you are <B>acting</B> as if you are consumed by it. I can't see this being good for you or your GF.<P>I'm not meaning to sound harsh here, I am just an outside observer, and as such it seems that you are creating a bigger mess than need be. A mountain out of a molehill, as someone said.<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>You are way too focused on your XW's actions, and I think your GF is being made to suffer from this, even if she doesn't show it yet.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I don't give a <I>rat's ...</I>, but I smell trouble from this little encounter. Also, it's still testing time for me and new GF, and with my history of having been essentially dominated, I'm sensitive to the qualities <I>I</I> need to show in order to assure <I>GF</I>'s comfort that <I>it's over</I> and that I'm not going to let XW make me emotional, financial and legal <I>roadkill</I>. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I don't think your XW was stalking you. I think she was probably surprized to run into you, she probably was trying to avoid talking to you, and she tried to wave you off when you approached. What's wrong with that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P><B>Nothing</B> would be wrong with that. And I'm willing to entertain the thought that XW might have been sent reeling a bit, and might have wanted to finish her cell-phone conversation with someone she was at that moment confiding in about the unexpected turn of events. If that's the case, why not go on and shop after seeing us departing? I had <I>no idea</I> which way XW was moving after starting her car (I was just glad she wasn't directly following me), but she had every opportunity to see enough to guess my probable route out of the area (she knows which direction takes <I>me</I> home) and intercept <I>us</I>. I could have gone a couple of other directions, but I frankly thought <I>XW</I> was already <I>left behind</I>.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Instead, you subject your GF to all sorts of confusion, circle the parking lot, play detective regarding which way your XW turned her car, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Well, no, yes (but only as-needed to get pointed toward home with as many right-turns as possible and intervening buildings to screen my path)--I was already making for the farthest exit from the lot, and if I had turned left instead of right, I potentially would have been traversing the width of the parking lot in full view the whole time and then stuck waiting to turn left at a red light which would have allowed me to traverse another side of the parking lot in full view--<I>easy pickin's if she was going to pursue</I>. <P>And no to the final one. I glanced up that alley with an <I>oh s**t</I> feeling. And looking the the rearview, I was thankful when XW went into the Walgreen's parking lot. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It's one thing to wonder about what your XW thinks or does, but you seem to obsess about it, and worse, you are [b]acting as if you are consumed by it. I can't see this being good for you or your GF.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was happily shopping until things got weird. Of course I can construct alternate, innocent explanations. Maybe it was all innocent. In the moment, it didn't <I>feel</I> innocent.<P>Remember, if I seem to be obsessing, it's because my license plate goes out of date in less than 2 weeks, and XW and her attorney are <I>playing games</I> with giving me a signed title so that it can be renewed. I'm also owed $5k, and the both of us owe the IRS a late 1040. At least XW <I>did</I> refinance her car to get me off the note. Probably only because rates are better now, no intention to make my life any easier. <P>It was my (gently) <I>pressing</I> for this stuff that motivated XW to drag the attorney back in. I just want to be free, but I'm not going to chew my own arm off to get there--I need the stuff I need, and I need it ASAP.<P>If she didn't want to go through all this stuff, she <I>needn't</I> have divorced me.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 19, 2001).]

*If she didn't want to go through all this stuff, she needn't have divorced me.*<P>Sis -<BR>Sorry, it sounds like AGAIN, you are wanting to be back with the XW and the game playing of last night that both you and her did was too weird. <P>I have to go with AGG on this as well, it seems as though your new GF is a pawn here. <P>What do you want? You say it's the details (title, 5k etc..) but what are you doing besides provoking her lawyer into dragging it out further to spite you?<P>Think about it. <P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

"*If she didn't want to go through all this stuff, she needn't have divorced me.*" -- I was speaking <I>very much</I> in the past tense. Not to protest too much, but what's done is <I>dead, done and gone</I>. And she went a long time without having to deal with the remaining items. Can I get a break? When I <I>knew</I> I was still not quite over her, I wouldn't have had a problem acknowledging it. Now that I <I>am</I> over her, I can at last reapproach dealing with these items (and I <I>need</I> to at this point). The process of letting her go is what I think is making her so uncomfortable now. I absolutely will not be deterred from doing what I need to do.<P>But no one is a pawn, and I'm not needlessly provoking her lawyer, although he's done little to inspire my confidence in his ability to dispose of these matters. So far, I've sent him the title, another document necessary to get XW off my main bank account, and a 1040 rejiggered to <I>her</I> specs, and a piece of documentation that actually cut <I>against</I> the amount XW owes me. What do I have in return? His <I>kvetches</I> about having to communicate with me in e-mail and a fat lot of nothing. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 19, 2001).]

{{{{{Sis}}}}}}<P>I hear your frustration,pain and sorrow here. Sorry to have jumped to some conclusions. <P>It seems like you are going up against brick walls at each turn and with that, the encounter last night must have been too insane! :eek<P>I re-reading your postings, you seem to really be wanting this DONE. I hear you wanting the opportunity for the *silver lining* with your new GF to come to fruition and actually, if I may here, I think what is truly *between the lines* is the fear of losing your future with the GF due to all of this.<P>I re-iterate my earlier statement; *Sounds like you have gone through alot with all of this. It also sounds like you are very open and honest, if your GF is as you say she is, don't let her go ! You both are lucky if you are as open as you say.*<P>All my best for you Sis, you are in my prayers!<P>G<P><BR> <P><P>------------------<BR>The only way out is to go through<BR>- Robert Frost

When data points are few and far between, one is tempted to read volumes into each data point.<P>Notifying your XW's counsel of the contact was probably wise, Sisyphus, but perhaps the notification was worded too strongly. Antagonizing your wife (or her attorney) is unlikely to elicit a desire for cooperation.<P>There are plausible alternative explanations for your XW's behavior, and you don't have enough information to distinguish between them.<BR>