No, this is not a goodbye message, because Lord knows I've written enough of those to last a lifetime -- AND, I keep coming back, so it seems kinda silly! <P>Here's the thing.<P>Clearly my being here is sending a message that I did not want to send.<P>For every message of support, I believe there is a dozen or more lurkers or non-lurkers who feel that I'm promoting infidelity.<P>It was mentioned to me that if I was *okay* with all of this I wouldn't care what people think. <P>I've always cared what people think.<P>...sigh...<P>Thank you for the support I have received, and I will continue to visit those posters who I think might benefit from my experience. <P>Maybe one day I'll just disappear -- hey, stranger things have happened...<P>Like I said before... I am a hurricane... and maybe this was just me blowing through...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

NB,<P>I didn't make a lifetime promise to the first one. I was ready to, but he changed the "vows" at the last minute, at the altar. It was a marriage by legal standards.<P>When I got "married" a second time, it was the first time I made that commitment and the first time someone else made that commitment to me. I was divorced for 3 yrs before I met my second STBH, and dated him for two more years before we got married. Like so many here, I'm sure he's convinced he did everything he could to make it work. I know better. In the big scheme of things, he was the one who found divorce easier to live with and is the one who looked forward to finding someone new. He did not invest too much of himself and did not become too attached to my family or friends. He was smart that way. That's why getting divorced was alot easier for him. I learned alot from him. The only thing I didn't learn was how to use someone else and not feel guilty about it. <P>I was naive when I got married the second time. I didn't know what love really was unti it was tested. The argument is not whether I'm capable of "falling in love" again, or arguing whether that is right or wrong. Of course I'm capable of having those "feelings" again, but that's not love. That's hormones. To me, real love is not like falling into a mud puddle -- OOPS. It is a choice. There is very little that I do by accident. Not even my "affair" was an accident, as much as that pains me to say it. If you were honest with yourself, you'd understand that too. <P>Noone is "forcing" me to have another relationship or to get married again. My options are wide open. My first husband didn't "force" me to do anything except be away from him. The rest was up to me. I made a lifetime promise one time. Maybe I was "lucky" that my first ex changed the vows at the last minute. It gave me the opportunity to actually make those vows to someone else. Problem is, my second husband didn't really mean it when he said it. Oh well. My bad. I made the choice to marry him and I made the choice to make that promise to someone who was incapable of keeping it, or maybe I'm the one who is incapable of keeping them. That's the breaks. <P>Sure, I'm hurting. So what? Like I said before, it is only because I haven't evolved to the new standards of morality yet. As soon as I find a way to feel comfortable using someone else to meet my needs for as long as it's convenient for me, and when I don't mind being used for the same purposes, then I'll be ok. My ex is happy because he got much more out of our marriage than he put in. He has no need to feel resentful. He does not feel ashamed to be divorced. He does not feel ashamed about his efforts, or lack of them. All he is concerned about is what makes him feel good, and making sure he gets the most bang for his buck, ie that he gets the most out while simultaneously putting in as little as possible. <P>Marriage to him was not a partnership or the opportunity for mutual spiritual growth. It was about him being happy. He's happy now. I'm quite sure of it. And when he stops being happy with the next wife, he will find someone new. I used to believe that the stigma of divorce was somehow this big incentive for people to work at marriage. I don't beleive that anymore. I've learned here that there is no stigma really. It only exists in my brain, and as soon as I learn to be ok with a gazillion marriages (or whatever), then I can "be happy" too.<P>Time for me to jump on the bandwagon and find someone to use and call it love, I guess.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

Okay Student,<P>I'm selfish, I was so wrong about so many things.<P>I've admitted that. I am admitting that now.<P>...and I do care about your pain.

NB,<BR>I edited out the last phrase you are probably responding to. <P>The hardest thing for me to admit through all of this was that I have a dark side. A side that is selfish and mean and occasionally cruel. I told my ex that not only did I stare into the abyss, I fell into it and had to crawl out. Thing is, he hasn't. When I see people making excuses for their choices in life, it is because they can't admit they have a dark side. <P>Saint Therese of Liseux said: "If you are willing to serenely bear the trial of being displeasing to yourself, then you will be for Jesus a pleasant place of shelter."<P>I expect to be in pain. It is not something I'm afraid of anymore. I didn't go to school to get my PhD expecting it would be fun and easy. Why should anything else in life worth having be easy either? Part of the reason I am celibate is because I am not in accordance with our current cultural practices, AND because I am personally opposed to making multiple life-time commitments unless my spouse has died. It is still up for debate whether I will have sex again without a commitment. Since I don't believe most people are capable of keeping that commitment anyway, it is probably a moot point. <P>One of my friends said that I could tell a new person (read, sexual partner) I wasn't interested in getting married again, and that I shouldn't worry about hurting someone else as long as I made this clear up front. This is what I mean about our "cultural practices". I wasn't too surprised to hear this from her. She has been following this practice for quite some time, and has usually been the "dumper" whenever the other person "fell in love". She hasn't had to experience the consequences of becoming inadvertantly attached, or else, she made sure she didn't get too close in one way or another. <P>I guess my next thought was...why even bother warning them. If you get "married" and it gets old, then they are out the door. If you don't get married, same thing, except without all the paperwork. The only thing that keeps re-surfacing is my inability to use someone else without guilt. I really need to get over this. The tricky part is finding a way to leave the appearance that I'm giving it my all, but in reality, making sure I don't invest anything I'm not willing to lose. That is the art of "relationships", as I see them today. And that is why I'm celibate.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>The hardest thing for me to admit through all of this was that I have a dark side. A side that is selfish and mean and occasionally cruel. I told my ex that not only did I stare into the abyss, I fell into it and had to crawl out. Thing is, he hasn't. When I see people making excuses for their choices in life, it is because they can't admit they have a dark side. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have a book at my old house called, "Your Shadow Side" and it discusses this in depth. I understand the concept, and I believe that ALL humans have a dark side. It's what they do with it that matters.<P>Further, I prescribe to the philosophy that "We hate most in others what we see in ourselves"... and on more than one occasion I have found myself saying things (if even just in my own head) like: Look at that fat woman, or why can't they control their children, or she must not be a very good wife... which I could very easily flip around: I am fat, I never could seem to control my kids, and I was not a very good wife.<P>Life is so hard already Student. Why do you insist on making it harder? You have so much to offer: you're bright, educated, and GIVING (I *know* this to be true)... <P>I am sad this morning. I have to live with my choices, and I still grapple with the pain I have caused people. Yes, I am selfish, as I said. But I don't come on here saying, "I was right." I come on and say, "I was wrong and I'm paying for it"... and whether you or anyone else believes me, I AM paying for it -- every single day of my life.<P>I do wish I had happy faces and rainbows to share. I wish I could say everythings peachy now. <P>I BELIEVED that my first marriage was FOREVER. I believed David when he said he'd never forsake me. He cheated over and over... and yes, I finally did cheat myself. What a gawd-awful mess. I regret it all so very much. Twenty years with this man Student. Can you say you spent 20 years with one man who cheated on you over and over? It was 12 yrs. later that I had my affair. In those 12 years what do you think I did? I salvaged my ego, tried to find the love that was lost, and got through each day.<P>It's ugly out today -- overcast, misty, foggy -- and it's how I feel too.<P>I'm not here saying "happy happy"... although, dammit, I'd like to. But happiness is just a commercialized emotion that doesn't exist... right?<P>Oh... I guess I should go now. I'm alone at the moment and a warm bath with some scented candles sounds nice...<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 21, 2001).]

Student,<P>Much as I hate the thought, I am so afraid that you are right when you said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And so it is with marriage now. The ones who can skip through multiple marriages/relationships with barely a scratch will thrive. The ones who don't form binding attachments to spouses or children will be the ones who survive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Frank Pittman said in his book, "Grow Up," that you achieve long-term happiness through doing the right thing, not through doing whatever makes you feel good at the moment. I think the only problem with his theory is that it is only true for those who are basically good people. That is one reason that I doubt that my H will be happy long-term, and is likely not happy even now. <P>I don't think you can "evolve" (or actually "devolve") into the new, throw-away morality - at least not long-term. There are, I am afraid, a large number of people who were born (or raised - I certainly don't want to get into a nature vs nurture debate) that way. If that morality is inherited, either genetically or culturally, and there is a selective advantage to it and such people produce more offspring who reach adulthood, obviously as time goes on they will make up a larger percentage of the human race - and I know I don't have any interest in adapting. I think I'll stay in the pre-industrial revolution world.

Nellie, you are in a whole other place than most who post here...<P>You have a VERY long-term marriage to a man who, in a depressed state, left you and your six (?) children. You are standing for your marriage. You have no other "experience" upon which to draw. <P>I respect your position, as I do of all women and men who "stand" (as in Gavin McCoud, which I have mentioned many times). <P>You cannot be "lumped in" with many here. <P>

NB,<P>"Further, I prescribe to the philosophy that "We hate most in others what we see in ourselves"... <P>What is it that you think I hate? I don't "hate" my ex for being selfish and using me. I ENVY him for being able to do it and not feel guilty about it. I don't hate you for ending your marriage and finding someone new. I ENVY you for being able to forget about 20 yrs you spent with him and actually--oh, what's the word?--believing that your new relationship is about "love". Even the word "envy" isn't quite what I'm looking for. Maybe sadness. Yea, that's it. I'm sad that I don't really fit into this world. I'm sad that in order to get along these days, that I must turn my promises into "wishes", that I need to be ok with using people, that I must lie about my life--and in all other respects leave the appearance of committment where none really exists in order to be in what we call a "relationship". <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

Student, <P>Just because I prescribe to that philosophy doesn't mean you do.... I do FOR MYSELF. I guess I should have written it that way. It was more for discussion sake than for you personally -- for all of us to ponder.<P>But, aside from that... you didn't respond to the other points I made. <P>Maybe I'm just too "feeling" lately. I keep saying I care, I keep saying I'm hurting too, I keep saying a lot of things. But they don't seem to matter to you.<P>Blunt? yes. But uncaring? I never ever thought of you that way. <P>I don't know what's going on... but the world seems very strange today.<P>I do wish you love, Student.<P>I always have.

Me again Student,<P>I've been thinking... and here's what I've come up with:<P>I know I'm just someone you met on MB... a cyber-friend, so to speak. You don't really know me, as I don't really know you -- at least not as we know others in "real life". However, since he have spoken in real life and exchanged many emails and even a few cards via snail mail, I believe we have taken the friendship a bit further.<P>Often (as in the situation I find myself now) I put my everything into relationships because of what I *feel* at the moment. It makes me vulnerable (often), lovable (sometimes) and annoying (at other times).<P>I want you to know that when I send you hugs or "love" it is sincere.<P>I believe in reciprocal relationships -- giving and taking -- and I think we have done that over the months. I don't think it's selfish to want our needs met. Everyone wants to feel loved.<P>I just want to reitterate that I wish no harm on anyone here, especially those I've grown closer to, like you. If my being here is causing it I will have to find a way to leave (therapy possibly because nothing else has worked yet!).<P>I will bow out from this thread now, because I am clearly (as I've said) causing pain. <P>With love, Student, sincerely...

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SHERYL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TheStudent}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

"Life is so hard already Student. Why do you insist on making it harder?"<P>My life is EASY now because I made it that way. I'm not here confused about my children and relationship. But then, these choices I've made involved pain. It involves being lonely. Where we differ is on our definition of what makes life hard. <P>"You have so much to offer: you're bright, educated, and GIVING (I *know* this to be true)..."<P>Being bright and educated is not a big selling point when you are female. I have nothing to offer the average guy when my gifts are considered an aggravation, a nuisance, and something that gets in the way of their needs. Then again, I won't settle either--hence the "booty boycott". I used to think I could have both (a satisfying, fulfilling relationship AND a career), like men do, but we haven't progressed that far. Women are still supposed to be "less" than their men. I can't change the world, but I can make sure that there is at least one less man on this planet who is not getting his needs met either. <P>I don't like to hear that you are hurting. I haven't said much about it because I haven't heard what you are doing to fix the problem. Have you identified the problem yet? <P>I appreciate that you care about me. Yes, I'm in pain but I have no desire to avoid it, or at least, I don't believe finding someone new is going to lessen my pain. So, out of respect for decent folks, I do my best to struggle with it in a way that impacts the fewest people. This is why I left MB. <P>...I just read your recent post. Sheryl, I'm frustrated with you at the moment. I don't have a way with nice words. I used to, I think, at one point.<P>Now, I overestimate people's ability to handle the way I say things. I can't see how much someone is hurting over email. I can't temper my response based on their expression. I don't wish to hurt you, but I am frustrated. Do you want to solve your problems? You say you are in pain, yet you don't appear to be doing anything about it.<P>I'm in pain too but it is not because of any specific problem I'm having. I'll always carry this particular pain, and expect any decent person would, for the rest of my life. The worst part was acknowledging and accepting that fact. There is not a soul in the world who can make this pain go away, and so I try not to burden other people with it--as best as I can. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

Yeah, I came back...<P>Student, the fact that I have (as yet) *undiagnosed* pain does not make the pain less... well... painful. Pain is pain, whether I give it to myself or it comes from outside sources. <P>As a friend, I would expect you to care that I hurt -- and yes, be honest with me about what you see -- but first and foremost, reach out to me, as I try to with you and all my other friends, RL and cyber.<P>I'm sorry I frustrate you. <P>That doesn't mean I don't respect and love you.<P>So, I suspect you want to hear me **name** my pain.<P>My pain is from a failed marriage, missing my children, my home... and yes, I did **do this** to myself. I made a choice to leave. My kids are the ONLY part of what I wish I could somehow *fix* ... I ache for them.<P>My ex-H and I are history. I am trying to remember the good times, but the bad times have a habit of cropping up when you hang around a website that has your sordid history plastered all over the place (with the added bonus of having had my ex post also).<P>The new man. You want me to say it's a mistake. The WAY in which I did this was ABSOLUTELY a mistake. I have admitted that. So, what do I do? <P>I try to work through the pain. I try to look at this and make decisions daily. I try to live with my decisions. I try to love this man, who has freely given himself to me and (right or wrong) wants to love me for the rest of my life (and yes, I do think it can be done despite what happened in my first marriage). So, I could choose to stay here forever.<P>My other choice is to move back to where my children are. The logistics of such a move (both physical and emotional) are horrific. No home, no job, no car... so I **could** go back to the man who I loved with my entire being at one time but who tore my heart and soul into a million pieces... just so I can say I did the **right thing** in the eyes of some (maybe even including God). I could, in essense, wait and see if and when he cheated on me again. <P>And, my friend, therein lies the problem, doncha think?<P>I can't go back, yet I'm unsure if being here is the best thing for everyone concerned (mostly my children, and selfishly, ME).<P>Again, I'm back to what do I do?<P>I *thought* I could come back here, to MB, and while sorting out my issues help others to sort out theirs. I guess you and I are alike that way. But it only brings pain...<P>...and we return to the beginning...<P>I frustrate you because my pain is self-inflicted.<P>Pain is pain... and I'm in it. It doesn't matter where it came from.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 21, 2001).]

((((((((SHERYL))))))))<P>I'm sorry that your in so much pain. I am popping back in on this thread only reading the last two responses, but I may have read the beginning of this a while ago.<P>So if I repeat myself or someone else, I appologize.<P>Will the new man move BACK with you for you to be near your kids? Does he have kids?<P>I know you don't want to lose your new man either, but, if you do decide to move back, I would think you might be able to get in touch with a relocating employment agency and maybe they can get you a job lined up before you return. It would be tough and a lot of work, but if you should ever decide to go that route, there is someone on the board here who is a job counselor that might be able to help you in some way. <P>It must be frightening to rely on someone else so much. I can't do it. I have to take care of myself no matter how hard because I'm afraid to put that much trust in anyone anymore.<P>Lastly, I just want to mention this, (not to confuse you more, I swear), but my girlfriend gave up her kids and went halfway across the country to be with another man. It was great in the beginning, and very intense for her. Somehow, she went from a strong independant woman to a very confused lonely person. I felt terrible for her. She returned back to where we live about 9 months later. She lost the chance of ever having custody of her child and I know she was in great pain. She has since turned her life around, got an apartment, a great job and sees her son every weekend. I am SO proud of her. My point is, be good to your kids, because I just learned the hard way last month that when you really open your eyes, the only thing you have in the end of this mess IS your kids. They are the one thing NO ONE can take from you . I made some bad choices myself and I am going to make up for it.<P>You are a great person and I hope you find some peace and happiness. Hugs, Dana<BR>

I don't know what to tell you Sheryl. Any attempt to offer advice will sound over simplistic and probably condescending...<P>About going back...I have not suggested that you go back to David. I AM concerned about your children and the lessons they are learning at the moment.<P>You seem to be vascillating between going back to David or staying with your new man... You say that if you move to be with your children again that you won't have a job, a car, etc. <BR>I just read what DanaB said. You could get a job back where you lived.<P>You know, I'm also frustrated at you because of this overriding dependency on either David or BF. I hate to see women do this to themselves. You have a great deal of power to change this situation. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanaB:<BR><B>((((((((SHERYL))))))))<P>I'm sorry that your in so much pain. I am popping back in on this thread only reading the last two responses, but I may have read the beginning of this a while ago.<P>So if I repeat myself or someone else, I appologize.<P>Will the new man move BACK with you for you to be near your kids? Does he have kids?<P>I know you don't want to lose your new man either, but, if you do decide to move back, I would think you might be able to get in touch with a relocating employment agency and maybe they can get you a job lined up before you return. It would be tough and a lot of work, but if you should ever decide to go that route, there is someone on the board here who is a job counselor that might be able to help you in some way. <P>It must be frightening to rely on someone else so much. I can't do it. I have to take care of myself no matter how hard because I'm afraid to put that much trust in anyone anymore.<P>Lastly, I just want to mention this, (not to confuse you more, I swear), but my girlfriend gave up her kids and went halfway across the country to be with another man. It was great in the beginning, and very intense for her. Somehow, she went from a strong independant woman to a very confused lonely person. I felt terrible for her. She returned back to where we live about 9 months later. She lost the chance of ever having custody of her child and I know she was in great pain. She has since turned her life around, got an apartment, a great job and sees her son every weekend. I am SO proud of her. My point is, be good to your kids, because I just learned the hard way last month that when you really open your eyes, the only thing you have in the end of this mess IS your kids. They are the one thing NO ONE can take from you . I made some bad choices myself and I am going to make up for it.<P>You are a great person and I hope you find some peace and happiness. Hugs, Dana</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for the hugs, that's first! <P>The problem with the new man is that he lives in a different country--well, still in North America, but another country nonetheless. So... the laws differ from the States, and I could leave my children (only one of which is legally a minor - two adult, though still living at home) but he could not leave his without severe legal ramifications. His are young, pre-teens, and so it seemed the best course of action was to have me come here.<P>I wish we could go there, but that is impossible. Therein lies a big part of the problem now.<P>Think, think, think... that's me lately.<BR>

It's not impossible, just difficult...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I don't know what to tell you Sheryl. Any attempt to offer advice will sound over simplistic and probably condescending...<P>About going back...I have not suggested that you go back to David. I AM concerned about your children and the lessons they are learning at the moment.<P>You seem to be vascillating between going back to David or staying with your new man...like there aren't any other choices available. Have you tried relying on Sheryl? You say that if you move to be with your children again that you won't have a job, a car, etc. Didn't you have those things before you moved to be with your BF? Didn't you work at a school? Why can't you call them back and ask for your job back, or a different one? Why can't BF move back with you?<P>You know, I'm also frustrated at you because of this overriding dependency on either David or BF, at the expense of your children. I hate to see women do this to themselves. You are not powerless to solve this problem. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I can answer these questions for you.<P>The job at the school: it takes months to secure a job at a community college in CA. It took five months from when my job was posted until I came into the first day of work. I can't just get my job back. Even if I begged.<P>My car has been sold. I have no job and no credit. I can't just get a car. Public transportation is non-existant in the area where I lived. It's walk or ride a bike and everything is 10 miles from another thing... the desert is like that.<P>I have no home because David moved into it with the kids. He can't afford to move again. My family would allow me to stay for *days* and no longer. I have been told that outright.<P>Okay, I'll allow that I rely on others too much, especially men. However, I want to make this point VERY clear: my vascillation is not between David and new man... it is between this life and the old one... and because I am not working, have no car or job or home without some help, it just *seems* to be a choice between the men.<P>My marriage to David is over. I know this. It doesn't make it hurt less.<P>My new relationship is good in many, many ways... but the extraneous factors (missing my children) cause me a great deal of pain... but make no mistake: I love this man -- not in a better way than I loved David, and not as a replacement for David, just because I do.<P>You know, I was a single mom to my children during the last year I was with them -- and I was alone (without a husband or a boyfriend) for seven months of that year. I did it by myself. That may not be years, like some here, but I did do it -- but I had the tools to do it with at the time. I no longer have them.<P>Now, I know that anything else *I* say will sound like justification... so I'll stop...<BR>

"Okay, I'll allow that I rely on others too much, especially men."<P>Issue #1. I don't think there is anything wrong with relying on others. We all need friends, loved ones, etc during hard times. However, when it gets to the point where you are in a position to make iffy life choices because of this dependency, I would call it an issue.<P>"However, I want to make this point VERY clear: my vascillation is not between David and new man... it is between this life and the old one..."<P>Issue #2--we got that one cleared up now. Ok, next... <P>"and because I am not working, have no car or job or home without some help, it just *seems* to be a choice between the men."<P>Issue #3. You've left yourself completely vulnerable and without alot of resources.<P>Just like with affairs, we get ourselves into these messes one step at a time. The main thing I see is your financial situation. Ever since my dad kicked me out of the house in a drunken rage when I was 18, I've learned that it is absolutely necessary to always have a backup plan. Even when I decided to go back to grad school full-time, I made sure it was all expenses paid (scholarship). I didn't rely on my ex to cover it, and thank god... <P>This is where I can try to help you Sheryl. I may have done a crappy job at marriage, but I've done a great job at covering my *ss financially. I understand better now why this has been so hard for you. We can discuss some strategies to improve your financial picture offline... <BR>

I love you Student.<P>Yes, we'll talk, and I'll be happy to listen, offline.