Dear Bramble Rose, I have been following your posts for the 4-5 months that I have been in the mb site. I have not posted very much, and am usually in general questions site, or in recovery. But, you always sound so wise, and seem to have a lot in common with my situation. I could really use a little, ok, I lie, a lot of advise.<P>My h and I have been married for 15 years, and have 4 children. My h is an alcoholic, although he does not agree with me on this. I call him an alcoholic because once he starts drinking he cannot stop. He will drink till 4 or 5 in the morning, to the point where he can no longer stand. Yet he will still drive his car home. He does this at least once a week.<P>It has caused problems for 15 years, but last year it all came to a head. I don't know if I can put into words very well what happened, but I will try. His drinking got worse, very late drinking sessions 2, 3 and 4 nights a week. After every session he was angry at himself, sorry, didn't know why he did it, blah blah blah. Then he went kinda crazy. After many problems I thought maybe he was depressed. We own our own business, and he does not deal with stress very well. Long story short I finally got him to a doctor who put him only anti depressants. Problem: Your not supposed to drink on antidepressants. They worked well for a couple of weeks, then I noticed him slipping back to his not happy, miserable self. He wouldn't go back to the doctor. As all this was happening he was moving in/out/in. I'd ask him to go, and he'd go, come back apologise say it will never happen again blah blah. Then came the affair. ****, as if we didn't have enough problems.<P>The affair, well to put it mildly blew me away. The affair was actually more of a 3-4 night stand with a revolting pig type woman, who seems to enjoy doing this to a lot of married men. H"s married friend had been "seeing" her before this. As it turns out she is also a prostitue, although we did not know this at the time.<P>So on discovery he was able to walk away, with no further contact.(not counting her trying to phone him on his mobile ph. every time she was drunk, which is often.) Did I mention that I hate this woman??? She even went so far as to completely cover him in hickeys, which to this date 6 months later I still have a very hard time coping with.<P>After the affair we went to counsilling, which was a step in the right direction because he had always said NO NO NO, to any suggestion of that.<P>And things have been better. He has been home more, more attentive, just generally a lot happier. I feel/think and kind of hope that his weirdness was mid life crisis. He has just turned 36. I'm sorry this is taking so long, but I am getting there I promise, .<P>Now I feel as though we are back to square 1. The drinking.<BR>The drinking has never stopped, just got a little more under control. He only disappears one night a week now instead of 2 3 or 4. I consider myself lucky if he gets home before midnight, unlucky if it is 2 or 3 am. He drinks at a social club, with a group of contractors in the same line of work as him, and there are usually no woman there. My "rule" after the affair was no more going to any place other than this social club, no more pub, which is where the affair began, or I would leave. So far, as far as I know he has stuck to this, and stayed at the social club, but still not managing to get home at a decent hour. When he gets home he is not pleasant either!!!!!<P>I am at my wits end. Here he is finally being a better husband and father in every respect except for the stinking drinking. On saturday night we went to a party at a friend of his. This friend has caused us a lot of problems in the past, and is not what I consider a friend. It was freezing at this party because it was outside, and it is winter here.<BR>I stayed until 2am, when h was finally ready to leave. However on saying our goodbyes, someone offered him the magic word, the best word in the english language, RUM.<BR>He stayed, I left. He got home at 5am. He then could not get out of bed at all yesterday, sunday. <P>He has admitted he has a "problem" with drinking before. And has gone so far as to phone an alcohol help line. But that was it. He said he rung them because he had become everything he despised in other people. ie, not being able to go to work on time. He does not get hangovers, and does not usually stay in bed all day either, so yesterday really knocked him. But from past events, and from reading all the aa literature, and going to 1 meeting,(al anon) I know that all his remorse will be gone about the same time as his hangover.<P>I don't know what to do!!!!! I am so angry at him, and sad for him. He is a very nice person when he is not drinking, and a very revolting person when he is drinking. I suppose I should also mention at this point that my father is exactly the same, always has been. I cannot beleive the similarites of these two. All of this, the drinking, the affair etc has had a huge impact on our children. We have twins about to turn 5, in 2 weeks, a 12 yearold, and a 15 year old. The 15 year old has major problems with his fathers behaviour, and I can honestly say hates his dad a lot of the time. Unfortunately understandable. H's drinking has resulted in major disappointments to us all, but missing 15 years olds award ceremony at school, and many other things has not helped this.<P>I know from your posts that your h is also an alcoholic. Have you had any similar problems?? Can you offer me any advise?? I feel that the only choice I have left is too leave, which means taking the kids out of there house, because he just keeps coming back whenever it suits, and leaves me on edge wondering when he is going to show up. But.. with the twins about to start school I hate to disrupt them. They have all been thru so much that as soon as we even raise our voices they ask if we are fighting, and if daddy is going to go away again. They cry for him at night, and ask for him all the time. Makes it all very very very hard to deal with. I love him. But, I can't keep doing this.<P>I am going back to the counsillor, but her earliest appointment is a week away.<P>If you have managed to read all this, I say THANK YOU!!!<BR>and please, any advise...<BR>Deb.

I'm not Bramble Rose but read your story and was immediately touched. She will be able to help you... as she helped me immensely also. I read that you were in Winter which is opposite where we are now, so I saw on your profile that you're from NZ... I was just there last Christmas and had a wonderful time in your lovely country. My very BEST friend in the world lives just north of Auckland! So, I have nothing to add... I will say a prayer of blessing and wisdom/discernment for you tonight. You're in a dilemma and I'm so sorry... {{{{<B>DEB</B>}}}} here's a hug!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hi Deb:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dear Bramble Rose, I have been following your posts for the 4-5 months that I have been in the mb site. I have not posted very much, and am usually in general questions site, or in recovery. But, you always sound so wise, and seem to have a lot in common with my situation. I could really use a little, ok, I lie, a lot of advise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not wise! I am only experienced with what worked for me. My answers might help others who have similiar situations. And it does sound like you have a few things in common with me - and I feel bad for you. To say that it's not easy to live with alcoholism is an understatement.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My h is an alcoholic, although he does not agree with me on this. I call him an alcoholic because once he starts drinking he cannot stop. He will drink till 4 or 5 in the morning, to the point where he can no longer stand. Yet he will still drive his car home. He does this at least once a week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DENIAL: Don't Even Notice I Am Lying.<P>What you describe is classic alcoholism, right out of the textbooks. My H says he isn't either. He clings to the stereotypical drunk wino under a bridge with a paper bag as his reason why he isn't an alcoholic. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It has caused problems for 15 years, but last year it all came to a head. I don't know if I can put into words very well what happened, but I will try. His drinking got worse, very late drinking sessions 2, 3 and 4 nights a week. After every session he was angry at himself, sorry, didn't know why he did it, blah blah blah. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Alcoholism is a <B>progressive disease</B>. Untreated, unchecked, it <B>always</B> gets worse, and eventually ends in death. Alcoholism does not just "go away" or "get better". The anger and the regret after his drinking sessions are also pretty typical - I'm sure Bumper would agree with me. <P>BUT, your H will continue this cycle until he hits a bottom. And where that bottom is, no one knows, not even your H. Bottom is where: "<I>The pain of staying-the-same is <B>greater</B> than the pain of changing.</I>"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Long story short I finally got him to a doctor who put him only anti depressants. Problem: Your not supposed to drink on antidepressants. They worked well for a couple of weeks, then I noticed him slipping back to his not happy, miserable self. He wouldn't go back to the doctor. As all this was happening he was moving in/out/in. I'd ask him to go, and he'd go, come back apologise say it will never happen again blah blah. Then came the affair. ****, as if we didn't have enough problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you have been following my posts, then maybe you have seen me talk about the 3 C's. You didn't CAUSE him to drink. His drinking is not your fault. You can not CONTROL his drinking, you can not force him to take his meds and not drink. You will only drive yourself insane, and his drinking will still get worse. And you sure as heck can't CURE him. You do not have the power to cure him. You can take him to doctors, give him medications, run interventions, force him into rehab, scream, cry, beg, and threaten - and it will not cure him. Thousands of spouses, parents, children, relatives, and friends of alcoholics have gone before you, and it did not work for them either. It won't work for you. <P>Alcoholism is a disease. Your H did not choose to have this disease. He didn't wake up one morning and say "Hey, I think I'll be an alcoholic and ruin my life!" <P>BUT, the cure for alcoholism is <B>his choice</B>. Until your H takes responsiblity for himself and his life and his actions, he will continue to drink. The day that he hits bottom and decides to change will be the day that he asks for help and <B>chooses</B> recovery. Only then will your H begin to get better. <P>And let me be clear. This is not easy to think about, and I am sorry to say it. But many alcoholics die before they hit bottom. Both of my grandfathers did. My H's godmother sought out recovery and lived the last 3 years of her life in recovery under the 12 steps...but it was too late. She died of cirrosis of the liver.<P>One of my greatest fears is that my H too will be one of those to die rather than to seek help.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The affair, well to put it mildly blew me away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, for me too, the affair was far more painful than the years of drinking, neglect, emotional and verbal abuse. My H's actual drinking has never caused me a real problem, except for the amount of money spent on it. My H is actually a very sweet, lovely man when drunk. He's nasty when sober.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The affair was actually more of a 3-4 night stand with a revolting pig type woman, who seems to enjoy doing this to a lot of married men. H"s married friend had been "seeing" her before this. As it turns out she is also a prostitue, although we did not know this at the time.<P>So on discovery he was able to walk away, with no further contact.(not counting her trying to phone him on his mobile ph. every time she was drunk, which is often.) Did I mention that I hate this woman??? She even went so far as to completely cover him in hickeys, which to this date 6 months later I still have a very hard time coping with.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Several thoughts here...first of all, your H is sick, but that does not mean he is not responsible for his choices. The affair was still <B>his choice</B>. This woman did not force him to have sex with her. She sounds just lovely, (NOT!) but the fact of the matter is that without your H's consent, she would not have had sex with your H. Anger directed at this woman is not productive. By focusing on her, and not your H, you disrespect your H by not considering his responsibility for his own actions. You enable him by not holding him accountable. Does this mean you are the arbiter of his life and should be the person he should answer to for his life and choices? No. But it does mean that when he chooses to do something that affects you, you should not hold someone else accountable for his choices. By doing so, you aid in allowing him to escape consequences of his actions.<P>I hope you have had tests for STDs. And follow it up again in 6 months. And again in a year. Please do not neglect yourself. (And I already know, without you saying a word, that you DO neglect yourself. Because we all do when married to addicts. DO NOT NEGLECT YOUR OWN MEDICAL ATTENTION!)<P>Something else that is characteristic of the disease is that alcoholics frequently seek out lower forms of company. Interaction with people of honesty, integrity and virtue is incredibly hard on alcoholics. The guilt that eats them alive day in and day out also drives them to seek out people that they can not feel small around. They can look at their friends and say "At least I am not THAT bad!"<P>Sounds like your H is again, following that alcoholic script by having an affair with that woman. Again, she is not the problem. She is only a symptom, as much as it hurts. And yes, I know how much it hurts. My H's ongoing affair is for me, the most hurtful and painful symptom of his disease.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>After the affair we went to counsilling, which was a step in the right direction because he had always said NO NO NO, to any suggestion of that.<P>And things have been better. He has been home more, more attentive, just generally a lot happier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My Al-Anon sponsor always tells me that alcoholics have a 6th sense about when they have finally pushed someone too far, and that person is about to stop aiding in that comfortable environment for their drinking. And they will say or do ANYTHING to get you to go back to participating in their disease. He pushed you too far. And so of course, he agreed to counseling. You were going to LEAVE HIM and he is dependent on you for many reasons that are not healthy. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I feel/think and kind of hope that his weirdness was mid life crisis. He has just turned 36. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll repeat it again. Untreated alcoholism <B>always</B> gets worse. It is a progressive disease that does not ever progress in a positive direction. This is not a midlife crisis, this is untreated alcoholism.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now I feel as though we are back to square 1. The drinking.<P>The drinking has never stopped, just got a little more under control. He only disappears one night a week now instead of 2 3 or 4. I consider myself lucky if he gets home before midnight, unlucky if it is 2 or 3 am. He drinks at a social club, with a group of contractors in the same line of work as him, and there are usually no woman there. My "rule" after the affair was no more going to any place other than this social club, no more pub, which is where the affair began, or I would leave. So far, as far as I know he has stuck to this, and stayed at the social club, but still not managing to get home at a decent hour. When he gets home he is not pleasant either!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are trapped in the cycle of trying to control his disease....and trying to force him to control his disease. Neither solution will work. <P>At this point, I'd be willing to bet, that your H sits in his club with his buddies, drinking and sulking, the martyr who is forced to drink because his wife is such a B&^%%. He could stop drinking if he didn't have to live under your rules!! <P>The alcoholic fog is just as thick as "affair fog". At least with an affair, when the relationship falls apart, there is hope for a break in the fog. Unfortunately, the booze bottle never gets upset and walks out on the drinker. The booze bottle is a most comforting mistress to the alcoholic. And you can not compete with her. Ever. Trying will make you insane.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He has admitted he has a "problem" with drinking before. And has gone so far as to phone an alcohol help line. But that was it. He said he rung them because he had become everything he despised in other people. ie, not being able to go to work on time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My H refuses to go to AA because he doesn't want to hang out with "losers". Sometimes he thinks that he is very funny, and calls recovered alcoholics a bunch of "quitters."<P>Your H is hurting and in pain, but apparently he hasn't had enough pain to change yet.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't know what to do!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is nothing you can do to stop his drinking. There is nothing you can do to control him or his actions. There is nothing to do at all.<P>The 3 As:<P>You are Aware of the problem. You haven't Accepted the reality of it yet. You are going directly to Action and doing what I do all the time - see a problem and try to fix it, regardless of whether or not it is mine to fix.<P>The definition of insanity is: "Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results." Are you insane yet? I was. I still have insane moments, but I am learning to recognize when I am acting in an insane manner, and then choose to do something else.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I suppose I should also mention at this point that my father is exactly the same, always has been. I cannot beleive the similarites of these two. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Alcoholism is a <B>family disease</B>. This is a disease that is cunning, baffling and powerful, and affects <B>everyone</B> in proximity with the addict. It is no surprise that you married an alcoholic if your father was one. I will boldy tell you that I too, suffer from the disease of alcoholism. Am I phsycially addicted? No. By the grace of God, I do not have the "allergy" to alcohol that Bill W. and the Doctor talk about in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. But I do have the spiritual and emotional dysfunction that also goes hand in hand with the addiction. This is why I practice the 12 steps of AA myself by attending Al-Anon, and "practicing those principles in all of my affairs". (bad choice of word for this forum, but that is the wording of the 12th step!)<P>How did I catch the disease? Both of my grandfathers were raging alcoholics. I never knew them. But my parents were both deeply affected, and recreated the emotional and spiritual dysfunctions in my childhood home. There is no wonder whatsoever that I fled my home into the arms of an alcoholic. Of my brothers and sisters that have become adults (there were 10 of us) 2 are acknowledged alcoholics and attend AA. I and my sister married alcoholics. I have another brother that is either an alcoholic, married to one, OR both. There is still massive denial from him about all of our family problems. That accounts for 5 of us. One of my other sisters died at 19, so we will never know. I have another sister and brother in college...both of whom are demonstrating problems...but again, the answers arent in on them. I have 2 more sisters at home still. Our track record isn't good though...and we didn't actually grow up in the presence of active alcoholism. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>. All of this, the drinking, the affair etc has had a huge impact on our children. We have twins about to turn 5, in 2 weeks, a 12 yearold, and a 15 year old. The 15 year old has major problems with his fathers behaviour, and I can honestly say hates his dad a lot of the time. Unfortunately understandable. H's drinking has resulted in major disappointments to us all, but missing 15 years olds award ceremony at school, and many other things has not helped this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As you can see from my own experiences, your children are and will be affected by this disease for the rest of their lives. As their mother, the best thing that you CAN do, is to focus on your own recovery, so that you can show your children by example, that life does not have to be controlled by alcohol.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know from your posts that your h is also an alcoholic. Have you had any similar problems??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I have lived much of what you describe. Most alcoholics are not unique, and neither are the experiences of their spouses.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Can you offer me any advise??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. I can't offer advice. What I can do is offer you my Experience, my Strength, and my Hope. I can tell you what answers worked for me and why. I can offer you my own understanding...but only you can decide what you can or should do.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I feel that the only choice I have left is too leave,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, when you live in close proximity with an alcoholic, your thinking becomes narrow, and options seem very limited. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...which means taking the kids out of there house, because he just keeps coming back whenever it suits, and leaves me on edge wondering when he is going to show up. But.. with the twins about to start school I hate to disrupt them. They have all been thru so much that as soon as we even raise our voices they ask if we are fighting, and if daddy is going to go away again. They cry for him at night, and ask for him all the time. Makes it all very very very hard to deal with. I love him. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, I can't keep doing this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aaaah, yes, so you are insane!! How does rock bottom feel? Because it sounds like that is where you are at. Your pain of staying the same (insane) has gotten greater than the pain of change - and so you are ready for change I hope! <P>We are all creatures that favor the path of least resistance; which is why adversity is often our motivation for growth.<P>What worked for me:<P>I can tell you that Al-Anon has changed my life. My life is still a nightmare mess...if you have read my profile, or followed my posts, you know my story. I married my H at 22, had 2 children, and my H been unfaithful many times. His drinking has caused severe financial difficulties, and my reaction to his drinking and neglect was to become severely, clinically, suicidally depressed. The grand finale happened after I found Al-Anon (thank God) but the short story is that my H moved out, 2 weeks later I discovered I was pregnant with our 3rd child. I suffered through his affair while dealing with a difficult pregnancy and no support from anyone but his OWN family members. I am now currently divorcing my husband, and face a life of single parenting 3 children, and trying to start a career after being at home with my kids for 10 years.<P>But I am for the most part, happy. Serenity is something that I experience often. My life is no longer controlled by my reactions to his disease. I am not fearful or ruled by anger. Do I have those emotions? Absolutely? I just no longer choose to allow those emotions the power that they once had in my life.<P>So, if you really want my "advice" - I can suggest that you attend Al-Anon meetings faithfully for at least 6 months before making any more life altering decisions. In just 6 months, you will be mentally in such a better place, that you will make better decisions. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Quoting from the "suggested Opening" from the Al-Anon Service manual:<P>We who live, or have lived, with the problem of alcoholism understand as perhaps few others can. We, too, were lonely and frustrated but in Al-Anon we discover that no situation is really hopeless and that it is possible for us to find contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.<P>We urge you to try our program. It has helped many of us find solutions that lead to serenity. So much depends on our own attitudes and as we learn to place our problem in its true perspective we find it loses its power to dominate our thoughts and our lives.<P>The family situation is bound to improve as we apply the Al-Anon ideas. Without such spiritual help living with an alcoholic is too much for most of us. <B>Our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions, and we become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it.</B><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will also suggest that you take your children to Alateen ASAP. Get yourself educated about alcoholism, and then educate your kids - my 10 and 8 year old sons both understand alcoholism, and it does help them a great deal to understand that their father has a disease, and that if he COULD love them, he would, but that he can't. They understand that their father makes choices, and that they also have choices. I can not even begin to describe how much help this was to my children.<P>You need to learn to take care of you with love, dignity and respect. We lose sight of our own dignity and esteem while living with an addict. Treat yourself, get help, seek recovery, so that you can help your children.<P>For the time being, you must put yourself first. You must rescue yourself before any one else can be aided by you. Am I saying leave your husband? NO. Don't make any decisions (unless you or your children are being physically harmed) until you have had time to work on your own spiritual and emotional health. <P>As for your marriage. An untreated alcoholic is incapable of participation in a marriage. Again, please don't interprete my words as a suggestion to separate or divorce. Because I am not suggesting either situation. There are many alcoholics who recovered after their spouses stopped contributing to the comfortable environment for their drinking. <P>The Marriage Builder's program is a solid honest program with good strong principles, and is quite compatible with the ideas and foundation of the 12 steps. When I found MB, I read for the first time what I wanted instinctively in a relationship. It took some time before I was able to recognize that my H would never be able to provide those things for me. It was 2.5 years into Al-Anon, working the program with a hardcore black-belt sponsor before I was ready to make the decision to end my marriage.<P>SO the short answer, given last, is Al-Anon. That's it. <P>You can probably find a local listing for Al-Anon by calling directory assistance. Otherwise, call your local Alcoholics Anonymous number and ask them. Call and find your local meetings - and GO!!<P>Here are some URLs to get you started:<P>Al-Anon - <A HREF="http://www.al-anon.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.al-anon.org/</A> <BR>AA - <A HREF="http://www.aa.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aa.org/</A> <P>Steps2Recovery - <A HREF="http://www.steps2recovery.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.steps2recovery.org/</A> (a fantastic online group that I belong to - but online is NOT a substitute for face to face meetings, so only use this as a supplement!)<P>The text of the Big Book of Alcholics Anonymous can be read here: <A HREF="http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/index.html</A> <P>My favorite chapter is chapter 5. I read it frequently!!!<P>I hope this helps!<P>((((((((((((((Deb))))))))))))))))<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I forgot to mention that "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie is a MUST READ for anyone living with an addict, especially an alcoholic. This is the book that lifted my own denial of my husband's problem, and helped me to seek out Al-Anon. <P>Also, if you can, get a copy of Survival to Recovery from your local Al-Anon literature distribution center. Since you grew up in an alcoholic household, you will find this book incredibly helpful with understanding your own childhood and what your children are experiencing now.<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hello and thank you OvrCs, thank you for your words of comfort. I am glad that you liked N.Z. It is a great place too live.<P>Bramble Rose: I don't know how to begin! Thank you!!!!<BR>Thank you for taking the time to read my story, and thank you for your reply. I am really touched. I am so sorry for your husband, what a foolish man he must be too give up on you. I admire you for your strength. I know that I must go down the same road, I have known it for many years, but you are right, 100% correct, I have been in denial myself, have tried and tried and tried to fix everything for my h, I honestly feel that I have tried everything, I know that there is nothing I can do other than sit back and watch to a certain degree from here on in, and it makes me so incredibly sad. <P>I had another one of my fix it all talks to h last night, you know the ones???? You are a nice, kind, loving person but you cannot control alcohol, "we" can fix everything if you will just lay off the drink blah blah blah. Too which he replies, "I know, and I'm sorry and I know there is a reason for my drinking, I just haven't figured it out yet"<BR>and on and on. The genuine remorse, and saying everything he knows I need to hear. I realised the futility of it as the words came out of our mouths, because they've all been said<BR>1000 times before.<P>I feel so sad Bramble Rose, he's going down that bad track again, and I realise this time I need to let him go there by himself. It's so hard to watch someone you love fall apart, especially when the solution is so obvious!!<P>His "breakdown" 6 months ago was not a pretty thing. I don't want it to happen again, and thank you, I do know, it's out of my control. He is starting to talk again of being useless, that I'd be better off with someone else, he's getting more depressed each day. Last time one of the things that bothered him most was tide marks in his eyes. (His description) They irritated him, the Dr put it down to stress. He also spent a lot of time gagging, not actually throwing up, but gagging. I put that down to nerves, neither of these symptons is back yet, but I am certain they are not far away, and it is awful.<P>I feel so helpless, and frustrated and sad, and afraid.<P>Your words meant a lot to me. I will go back to al anon meetings, and I'll go to the sites you suggested. I have been to the aa sites last year, but somehow managed to convince myself that his problem was more stress and depression than the drinking. I new deep down...<P>I will print off all the literature I can on al a teen for my children, because we don't have an alateen in our area, at the moment.<P>I am reassured to know that you know how it is, and how I feel, and yet so sad for you to be at this point. It must have been and continue to be a very hard road for you, I wish you the best things in life!!<BR>Thank you.

Hi Heartsore,<P>I am a recovered or recovering alcoholic with twenty two years of continuous sobriety. BR has just done a beautiful job of laying this out for you, there isn't much one would want to add to it right now. She has become a cyber buddy of mine, she has great insights.<P>Just to share a little of my own experience. When I first sought help with alcohol, I was in my thirties, married with kids, and doing fairly well in my field. That my friend, is the typical alcoholic, not the bum drinking wine served in a brown paper bag. First time around, it lasted for almost three years, then went back to it until I really hit bottom. <P>AA is a program for those who want it, not for those who need it. The Al Anon Family groups will show you how to help yourself and how to stop acting as an enabler or support system for the alcoholic behavior. Whatever your situation, it didn't get that way overnight, and it won't get healed or corrected overnight either. It will take a little time.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper <P><BR>

Heartsore, my heart goes out to you and my prayers. I know exactly what your going through, my life has been like yours, until i got tired of my sons living in fear that mommy and daddy were going to be fighting again as soon as dad got home from work and they would locked themselves in their rooms. Plus they were now teenagers and I used to worry about them picking up the same habits. I put up with it for 18 years, making all kinds of demands from him and he promising me how each time it would be different, until i couldn't take it anymore (2 years ago this month). I asked him to leave and he still wouldn't, saying it was my problem not his. Even while we were separated he'd call me crying and saying he'd change but it would have to be his way. He refuse counseling, always saying they'd blame him for all our problems. Then the ultimate hurt, an affair, though briefly, it still hurts. We divorced in December 2000. On the very month our divorce is scheduled to be final he start treatment for his drinking problem, why, because he was arrested for his second DWI and forced into treatment. I don't know if he'd of done anything otherwise. I divorced this man knowing i still loved him so very much but couldn't live that way anylonger. The day of our divorce he stops me outside the courtroom and hugs me and tells me he'll always love me. Why couldn't he change, I still battle with that question now. I guess i live each day hoping he'll stay in his treatment, and when he's well enough want to come back to me. But who knows. I blame myself alot, thinking its something i did or didn't do and al-anon helps me in that respect, alot. Maybe we both need this time to heal, but i sure do miss my best friend.<P>Bramblerose, I printed your post, to read everytime I'm down, to remind me it isn't my fault, thanks! I do need to give al-anon more time to work.<P>

Hi Bumperii, <BR>Thank you for your reply and for sharing some of your story with me. I would love to hear more!!!!! Congradulations on 22 years of recovery, that is something too be very proud of!<P>ConfusedSpouse, WOW! Now your story makes me feel sad!How is your H's recovery going? You know my friends and family tell me I am stupid for putting up with my h and his behaviour, even our counsillor said that "you are a very patient woman, to put up with this", which I took to be her way of saying,<BR>Stupid, stupid, stupid!! But when I see the heartbreak in your story, and for bramble rose, I feel anger at both of your h's that they are so stupid!! How could they not realise what they are doing to there families and their wives. Both you and bramble rose sound like incredible, patient, intelligent woman. And that realisation makes me finally realise how sad, tragic this disease really is. I would also love too hear more of your story, and will search out some of your old posts (and bumperii's too) Would love to hear more from you.<BR>Thank you<BR>Deb.