<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boheme13:<BR><B> Last night, she calls me to ask me to send her employment info (salary, etc.) for the lawyers. <P>FAITHFUL WIFE, hope you have time to write a reply tonight. I'm trying to breath, relax, pray, but it feels like my heart's being ground to dust.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>bump...

boheme13,<P>Okay, here I am. First, I have to tell you that it is difficult for me to write to you because I am in the position of your W and it hurts me a bit to talk to you. I hope you understand the idea that in order to help you here, I'm going to have to open myself up and tell you what is hurting me--okay? So please bear that in mind. I'm in a bit of a mess myself, I have to spill my guts for you to benefit, and it's a little scary to be that open.<P>Well, right now it doesn't sound too good. Am I correct that you are still living several hundred miles away from your W? WHY!!! Boheme13, just look at it logically for one minute. What are the pros and cons of staying where you are? Pros: you keep your job, you keep your financial security (etc.). Cons: you lose your family!! What are the pros and cons of moving down where she is? Pros: you can show her, through a HUGE leap of faith, that she is more important to you than anything. Cons: you lose the job you have but find another. See, boheme13, I know that often some of a guy's identity is tied in with his job/career/work, but just consider if you are willing to entirely lose your family to keep your job, and give that some life-threatening serious thought.<P>Here comes the more scary part. When my H first had his A, I tried EVERYTHING to meet his emotional needs (ENs) and stop committing the lovebusters (LBs). I didn't stoop to begging, for self-respect reasons, but I made it very clear to him that I wanted him back and would do whatever I had to do to get him back. Then he came back, and it was not AT ALL like I thought it would be. I thought he would come back home, come to his senses, realize what a great woman I am and what a fool he had been, and do everything in his power to win me back. BOY WAS I WRONG!! Boheme13, the important part here is that I bet you money that your W thought something similar. I bet she thought you would come home and see what a great woman and wife she is, and try to win her back after what you had done to her.<P>When my H came back home, he didn't want me to touch him. He did not want to talk to me, connect with me, or have anything to do with me, really. Not only did he NOT try to win me back, he acted like I was so priviledged that he had chosen to grace me with his presence. I was supposed to convince him to stay with me!!! OMG. I felt like dying inside. Why couldn't he see the agony that he had put me throught--and apologize--and help me rebuild my self-esteem by acting like I was a prize? God, what pain!! Boheme13, I need you to be honest with yourself. Is this what happened between you and your W when you first stopped your A? Did she want you desperately, and then when you came home, you acted withdrawn and you wanted her to win you over? Did you mourn the loss of your A? Just be honest, and hopefully our stories are running a little bit parallel.<P>Then, my H wanted to "forget the past" and "let go and move on." Every time I asked a question or didn't understand what to do or what he wanted, he accused me of bringing up the past. For me, I felt like he was trying to ignore a gigantic pink elephant in our livingroom. How can we NOT deal with it!!!! Something was seriously wrong and sick between us, and his solution was to pretend it didn't happen. We were basically roommates who had periodic sex--there was no connecting or healing. This ate at my spirit like you can not understand, because for literally more than a year, I wondered if the OW was prettier than me, smarter than me, happier than me, sexier than me OR WHAT?? I felt like I could never set my own mind and fears and demons to rest, yet at the same time, I was supposed to meet his ENs to keep him from leaving again! Boheme13, can you see a stage like this in your marriage? You came home and just ignored the A? You didn't answer her questions or talk about it or explain to her why it happened--how it was a weakness in you and not her fault? If she asked you about the affair, you told her she was "dragging up the past and can't we just move on?" When she felt like screaming out in pain, did you ignore her or give her guilt or blame her?<P>So, time went by, and despite the fact that I felt so confused and rejected and ignored and unappreciated and stepped on and desperate and just generally bad, I kept coming here and asking for guidance and support and encouragement and hugs. I prayed my guts out. I cried more tears than I care to count, more nights than I care to count. I tried and tried and tried and tried, and I kept wondering why in the world God kept teaching me Patience when I was pretty clear on how to be patient! Boheme13, did your W try and try and try and try when you weren't ready to yet? Did she cry more tears than she cares to count, more nights than she cares to count? Did you ever sincerely and truly thank her for the years that she hung in there with you when you weren't ready to be with her yet? Did you even notice?<P>Then my H went into what I call "purge mode." He decided to come clean on everything!! And while I appreciated the honesty, and no matter how bad it was, I could deal with the honest truth a lot easier than the slimy lies--still, I heard things from him that no woman should ever have to hear from someone who supposedly loves her. All the things I had done to drive him away; all the times he had turned to other women instead of me; all ways in which I didn't meet any of his needs; all the ways that his OW DID meet his needs; the things that were GOOD about her; all the things I was STILL doing wrong; the things about my physical appearance that he didn't like; the way I am emotional and he is logical; all the years that he never did care about me; all the times that he KNEW he was hurting me, but it made him feel good so he did it anyway; just EVERYTHING. And the worst part of all was that all those awful, hurtful, painful (boy, there's not a word to describe this) were said to me, and I was supposed to greet those with enthusiasm. Like, "I am so glad and proud that you are finally being honest with me." It broke my heart and I wanted to scream out in pain and cry. But if my face wavered or if I expressed sorrow, then I'd get the "See? That's why I never talk to you" speech. Boheme13, did you ever put her through something like that? Maybe you didn't purge your soul and tell her every little indiscretion, like my H did, but did you force her to put on a happy-face mask while you told her some painful stuff, and then, if she had the nerve to show some of her pain, tell her "How dare you" or punish her for being honest with you? Did you gradually train her that it was not really safe to be honest with you or to express her feelings to you?<P>Well, enough of that for now. I think you can see, in a true and horrible sense, how deeply, deeply, DEEPLY hurt your W is. Now, I did not tell you all of this stuff to try to make you feel guilty or ashamed of what you did or how you behaved. Actually, if you behaved anything like my H, you were behaving pretty normally. That's the way A's go! The trouble is, while you are trying to come to your senses and get yourself straightened out and figure out what the heck happened, your W was slowly but surely dying. I mean it--dying. Add on there the complication that you moved away, and I'm sure she felt abandoned and rejected all over again. <P>Her heart is almost all hard now. She has been living away from you for a long time and she is starting to build her own life and her own identity that does not include you. Someone may have even come along who SAW what a wonderful, beautiful person she is and TOLD HER, and she soaked it up like a sponge. <P>Boheme13, it is time for you to take the lead now. You can not afford to sit back and let her "give you a sign" or tell you what she wants to talk about, but she is behind that wall and there is no way she's coming out. She can not tell you what her ENs are because that would be opening up to you, and you have taught her that that is not safe. She can not tell you what you have done to hurt her (LBs) because it will just cause her more pain to tell you. You have to come out from behind YOUR wall first. Take a risk and open up yourself to her or you will lose her. I do not care if you think you need it or if you think it is too expensive, call Steve Harley TODAY!!! The phone number is 1 (888) 639-1639, and I think it costs $125/hour. I firmly believe that your marriage can be saved, especially if she has not yet filed--and maybe even if she has filed--but you are going to have to put your pride aside, forget about "fairness" for a while, and put your WIFE ahead of yourself. Steve Harley will give you a gameplan how to win her back. CALL NOW!! I mean it. Stop reading this post and call immediately, and don't let your ego get in the way!! <P>You know, you are in my thoughts and prayers tonight,<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P>I agree with everything you've written. The things you've been through and written about -- it's as if we live in the same house. <P>Everything you mentioned - from the way I acted coming home again to wanting to put everything behind to the insensitive things I said in the name of putting everything on the table to watching the love in her die - I did. What's painful is that I know and always have known how much she does, how beautiful she is, and how meaningful it is to have her in my life and for her to accept me in hers, yet I horribly abused her trust. It's been three years since all of this started, and the pain, guilt and shame I feel about what I did to her grows every day. And at this point, I don't think I can do anything to save our marriage. Nothing I say can help, nothing I do can help. But I don't feel like it's time to give up.<P>I'm seriously exploring moving back, but there are some considerations. One is her job; the business she works for is for sale, and the buyer could decide to lay her off. Related to that is that her family (mom and dad) lives within 25 miles of where I live now, and the rest of our family is within a few hours' drive. There's no relatives near where she lives now. Then there's the kids; I can't stand not seeing them every day. <P>So, if she loses her job and I've moved down there, what's going to happen if she decides to move close to her parents? <P>I have been talking with Steve. At times I feel hopeful, others defeated. It's not going to get better anytime soon, but I do feel an urgency to get started on renewing my relationship with my wife. Part of me wants to quit my job and move down; the other part says wait and see what happens with her job. But I also believe that the longer I spend away from them, the better my chances are that we end up divorced. <P>I'm tired of making mistakes and missteps, and now I'm afraid that the next step I make will be yet another in a series of bad decisions. <P>I appreciate your comments and your thoughtfulness. Please keep them coming. <P>Kevin.

dear boheme13,<P>i have been reading this post and have responded once... i feel your pain and the uncertainty that you are faced with... i would not dare to give you advice on whether to move or stay, but i will suggest that you do some serious praying... i will also pray that you get the answers you need to make the next step... listen hard for your answers...<P>cj and the rest are very good at getting to the point... i really admire them... i only hope that one day i will be as tuned in to myself...<P>God bless you and remember to pray and watch and move purposefully...<P>prayer does change things, but you have to take action too!<P>i sincerely care,<P>kim...

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by laura_lee:<BR><B><BR>Your primary goal would be to prove to me that you are real nad for real. I would want to see security, stability, and, most important,... CONSISTENCY.<P>With steady, stable, secure CONSISTENCY... my wall would slowly but surely come down. Otherwise, forget it.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent, but in relationship matters, I have a lot of learning to do.<P>What kind of CONSISTENCY is my wife (and you) referring to? That I consistently tell her I love her and our children? That I stay at my job for X years? That I demonstrate my commitment to her and my family? What? <P>I'm trying my hardest to be consistent in everything I do, yet I feel like I'm failing and flailing around. When a woman expects consistency, what does she mean?<P><BR>Kevin.

Kevin, <P>I'm trying, I really am, but things aren't going great for me right now. <P>Let me see. I want to be sure we are on the same track here. You say that you did do most of the stuff that I described, and you're experience was similar enough to mine to at least identify pretty strongly. That's what I read, am I right? Did I hear you correctly?<P>Kevin, I'm going to give you a mini-lesson on how a marriage can recover from an affair. First, there are the four rules, that you may have already heard of, but that you need to hear again:<P>The Rule of Protection<BR>The Rule of Care<BR>The Rule of Time<BR>The Rule of Honesty<P>Now, very briefly, the Rule of Protection means to avoid being the cause of your spouses unhappiness. You have heard the term "lovebusters" and you know that those behaviors are the most obvious ways to destroy love. You may even know what the big three "lovebusters" are: Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, and Selfish Demands. But Kevin, you need to somehow translate these obscure "terms" into real-life stuff--let me help. There are some things that you are doing RIGHT NOW that are hurting your W and causing her unhappiness, and you have got to stop them. Now, you may not know what it is that you are doing, and SHE may not trust you enough to fill out the LB questionnaire and share it with you. I don't trust my H!! So maybe you could tell her something like, "Honey, I have been doing some thinking, and I have realized that I am hurting you. I really, really want to stop hurting you, and if I ask you if something I'm doing is hurting you, will you tell me yes or no?" Then list a couple of things, like "living far away from you" "moving away when I should have stayed with you" "being defensive instead of validating your feelings"...you get the drift. And Kevin, no matter what she says, DO NOT GET DEFENSIVE. If you can, validate her by saying, "I did not know you felt like that. I am so sorry, " but if you really don't feel that way, at least say something like, "Thank you so much for opening up to me. I know that was hard for you. I'll think about what you've said." BTW, following this rule will plug the holes in the strainer. <P>The Rule of Care is meeting your spouse's emotional needs. Once again, I think you have heard this term and know what I'm talking about, but you need to translate it into real-life stuff. I am POSITIVE that right now your W will not talk to you about her emotional needs, so I suggest that you spend an entire night, at least, thinking back to the days when you two were dating. Whatever you did back then met her emotional needs and filled her lovebank, so you may be able to take an educated guess now. Let me give you MY good guess. I would guess that her needs are affection, conversation, honesty and openness, and family commitment. Now, I'll give you a chuckle: my top emotional needs are affection, admiration, conversation, and honesty and openness--I'm telling you this because since we seem to be a little bit alike, maybe your W's needs are close to mine. So you need to ask her if you can date her, make a fuss over her, do those little "in love" things (like cards, notes, picnics, etc.), ask her if you can hold her hand, and ask her if you could put your arms around her "for no reason". You need to create an environment that shows her over and over and over again that she is valuable, by making her FIRST ON YOUR LIST. If there's a conflict between her and an appointment or phone call, PICK HER! Tell those business people you have something else important scheduled and can not cancel. Conversation is talking and CONNECTING on a level deeper than schedules and passing info. Ask her what she thinks about XYZ, ask her if she likes your ABC and why, ask her to tell your what she's thinking about. CONNECT TO HER. But Kevin, that is HARD to do when you're hundreds of miles away!!! Finally, honesty and opennes means that you don't wait for her to ASK you about something, you tell her. You are completely open with your life...your time...your bills...your past...in other words, you are accountable. Let it all hang out there. BTW, you may have a good guess what some of her emotional needs are, but I will bet you money you are providing her at least one of those needs IN YOUR WAY rather than finding out how SHE WOULD LIKE YOU TO MEET HER NEED. I tell my H complimentary things out loud, and that is MY way of meeting the need for affection/his way is to cuddle up next to him on the sofa and not talk while we watch a movie together. Get it? If you can, ask her how she would like you to meet that need, and then DO IT! Don't complain, don't argue, and don't be reluctant. DO IT!!<P>I'll write more about the Rule of Time and the Rule of Honesty later, but here is something for you to think about for a while. The Rule of Time says to take time to give your spouse your undivided attention. This means time alone, with just the two of you, for 15-30 hours/week, creating activities that will meet the emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational activities. In other words, 15-30 hours/week with each other, enjoying each other's company, talking, connecting, and being affectionate. Kevin, how are you going to spend 15-30 hours/week winning back your W when you are hundreds of miles away from her? Could you have dated her if you were so far away and only saw her as often as you are seeing her now? Would she have fallen in love with you in the first place if you only spent the time you are giving her now? I bet the answer is no. Just think about it a little, and I'll try to write some more tomorrow. Okay?<P>Now, I will ask you for a favor. Will you send me a word of encouragement, a hug, or a joke or something? My H is on one of his business trips again, and last night he stayed out on the town until 1:30am and today he didn't call me all day. I'm feeling pretty heartsick. <P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I know you are hurting right now. i hope your wife will find it in her heart to forgive you because you sound like a changed man. but it took you so long to show the determination to get back together that maybe she's not willing to believe you are sincere and she doesn't want to be a fool. perhaps many friends and family that saw her suffering are telling her not to give you another chance because you had it once before and blew it. i just wish my ex would be begging me to reconcile and had the broken spirit you have so that i knew he was really changed.<P>just a suggestion, may or may not work for her but since all the fairytale of you being her one and only true love has been destroyed, perhaps you could do something dramatic to get her attention. Women need there to still be a prince charming and she is the sleeping beauty awakened by his kiss and ride off to the castle to live happily ever after. have a sky writer write a message to her over your sons ballgame saying I love you susan, marry me again, please. or put it on a billboard where she has to drive by everyday on her way to work, hire a band and singer to stand outside her window and sing love songs while you stand there looking longingly at her. send a singing telegram to her at work. the public forum is a big key. if a man would open himself up to public ridicule and proclaim his love and apologize publicly, then he's probably sincere. then tell her to punish you for however long she feels is appropriate and until she feels better but to please don't give up on you and don't get a divorce.<P>i don't know what the others will think about my suggestions since they've suffered long than me but perhaps they could make some better suggestions.<P>karen

This is directed to Faithful wife:<BR>You have put into words everything that I have felt, but did not know how to express. If I could reach through the screen and hug you , I would. I, too, am a betryed wife,and after 29 yrs ended up divorced. So, I can relate to everything and have felt and still feel just like you. Although we are in such emotional distress, it is comforting to know that somewhere out there in this world, someone has gone through and understands.<P>To Boeheme: Please do all you can to prevent this divorce. Just don't act impulsively and make rash decisions. I have been divorced now for 4 yrs because of my ex's affair. I am the one who filed for divorce out of my extreme anger and hurt. I did not want the divorce, but I wanted my ex to care enough, to love me enough, to try and stop it! I was testing him!!! At the time, he was still in the height of his affair, and deeply in thefog!!<BR>Divoce does not solve anything--the same problems are still ther, and he found out the grass isn't any greener. It took 3 yrs after the affair for the hatewall between us to come down, and I can actually say we are friends at this point. He is still with OW, but I can tell it is not the happy relationship he envisioned, and in his own way, he has actually tried to tell me that. Divorce does affect the children, even when they are adults, like ours are.<BR>Anyway, I agree with everything faithful wife has written, because I have also walked in those shoes. Maybe the divorce will need to go through so you can start over with a new marriage, and let the old one die and be buried. Time will be on your side. It took me a long time to get over my hurt and anger. My anger covered up a lot of fear that was buried inside of me. Give her the space she needs, and don't push at her in your impatience to get things resolved.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B><BR>.... The Rule of Care is meeting your spouse's emotional needs. ... You need to create an environment that shows her over and over and over again that she is valuable, by making her FIRST ON YOUR LIST.<P>Now, I will ask you for a favor. Will you send me a word of encouragement, a hug, or a joke or something? My H is on one of his business trips again, and last night he stayed out on the town until 1:30am and today he didn't call me all day. I'm feeling pretty heartsick. <P><BR>CJ<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>1. Rule of Protection: I've eliminated angry outbursts, sarcasm, disrespectful judgments. As for selfish demands, is wanting your marriage to work a selfish demand? Or for their children to see parents can work out their problems instead of walking away from them? <P>I will ask her about the things you mentioned, though, to see if they are further lovebusting. When I was talking with her today and the past came up, it occurred to me that the timeline about when she says she gave up on trying to work things out slides around. But when my leaving (in January) came up, that's a definite point of unhappiness. A big one. I told her I blew it, and she said something like, "You sure did." <P>2. The rule of care: At this point, I can't meet any of her emotional needs. She doesn't want me to. She says she doesn't love me, has no physical or emotional need for or attraction to me. She's happy being a single mom. Nevermind that we were intimate when she and the kids came up to visit in May, or that she called to tell me she missed me in the weeks after they left, or that she called to say she wished I was there right now so we could ... She wouldn't do that without an emotional need. <P>I've sent flowers, left cards, hidden notes like I used to do when things were going well, asked for hugs (when I was down in August, they were "half hugs," she'd turn so her shoulder, hip and maybe a leg would touch). <P>3. The rule of time: She won't give me any right now. I can barely get any words from her on the phone. The kids (6 and 3) answer the phone now. Fortunately, they hand it off to her when they're done, so I get to coax a few sentences out of her. I really want to talk with her, know how she feels about all sorts of issues. But when she brings up divorce stuff, I don't want to talk about it. <P>The sight of me makes her angry. She doesn't think it possible to fall in love again, with the same person. I never ruled it out, and I fell in love all over again. <P>She knows about all of the rules, but she doesn't want to work on it. I'm fairly certain that if we had 15-30 hours a week, it would begin to turn our marriage around. I work nights, they're up days; I'm working on a career change to make myself available to them and allow more time for them. <P>*****<P>Your posts are encouraging to me. They make me feel better, even though there's not a lot to feel encouraged about. Before she told me she wanted a divorce, I made the best of it by telling myself, "As bad as things are, I'm still married. My kids, my parents, my brothers and sisters all love me, and they all want this to work out." Don't expect failure.<P>A big hug goes out to you. I appreciate all you've written and look forward to more of your advice and support. And I'll be praying that you stay happy and that your husband sees/realizes how important you are. E-mail me if you want or have time (kpreilly@hotmail.com)<P>And I'll add a chuckle or two. Well, they're funny to me, and they're true stories:<P>1. My wife taught me how to drive a manual transmission. Everything went fine until we drove downtown (it's called down for a reason). I had to drive back up. All the lights are timed, and I got caught facing uphill, a steep one, on a red light. When the light turned green, I stepped on the clutch, took my foot off the brake and hit the gas, went screaming (tires squealing and the sound echoing off the buildings) up the street. It went like that about 60 feet. Whenever we're in a situation like that now, she reminds me to go easy on the gas.<P>2. Very early in our marriage, my wife made a casserole. It was really garlicky, very nearly inedible. After eating it for a few days, she asked me how it tasted (she wanted to pitch it). I told her it was a little heavy on the garlic, and asked her how much she put in. A clove, she said. Turns out what she thought was a clove was a fist of garlic.<P>3. I started riding my bike more while I was in Colorado. Got "clipless" pedals, the kind that you snap your feet into when you ride to get more leverage on the pedals, especially uphill. I kept forgetting to unclip my feet when I rode up to traffic lights. It was comically funny, like a cartoon! Ride up to the light, stop, realize I was still clipped in and fall right over! I'll bet any driver who saw me while they were stopped at the light was doubled over with laughter. <BR> <P>Kevin