I am REALLY angry today. After H saw the kids yesterday, they were really unsettled this morning (this happens every time he visits - the next day they are very moody). Last night, my 8 year old sleep-walked for the first time ever. And today when they got home from school my 3 year old was crying for her daddy.<P>When he left, he said the kids could call at any time. My eldest has done so a couple of times, but he hasn't WANTED to the last week. I haven't pushed it, either, as I figure if he wants his space, he has to deal with not talking to the kids. And what's up with him calling them once in a while???<P>But today, 3 was such a misery I said we would call daddy. I dialled and held the phone to her ear, didn't speak myself, but I could hear him.<P>3 - Daddy, I miss you<BR>H - (Big pause) I'll call you back.<BR>3 - I miss you, daddy. <BR>H - I'll call you back (HUNG UP)<P>He hung up on a 3 year old, no words of comfort, no nothing. I hate that he did that to her. I hate that I can't phone him up and pay out on him for doing that. I hate that rather than inconvenience himself at work, he couldn't spend a minute to console his daughter. Boy, How selfish can he be....I know about the fog, but this is a child he hurt this time. She has been very quiet since. I haven't spoken about it, I just said that he would call her later.<P>Why can't he feel for his children? This is a man who LOVED them to bits, spent a LOT of time with them and has consequently left a BIG gap in their lives. When he visits, he plays the good daddy again, but from their reactions, it just isn't enough.<P>Is it a love buster to discuss the children's difficulties with him? He has NEVER ONCE asked how they're coping, so I haven't brought it up. I thought if I did he would see it as manipulation. But they are suffering, and because he's not here, he doesn't realise it.<P>Some advice please!

I also would like some advice on this same exact subject. My H has been a no-show , no-call, no-contact nothing for 4 days now and he will not tell kids how to contact him even if we need him for emergency. He says he hasn't got a phone but I expect he has one in "her" name and can't call the house for fear of my callerid. What a crock? This is a man who clearly loves(ed) his kids and promised he would always be there for them. I just don't get how anyone could be so self-centered and selfish. I am truly sorry NinaToo that you are at this place but at least since you shared your story, I know my H is not the only cold-hearted, self-centered SOB on the planet. I hope that wasn't too much to say. I'm sure you still love him and I know I don't like to hear bad things about my H either, even though they are all true.... Anyway, no matter what they do to us, whether they love us or not, they need to know what the boundaries are with the kids. I know kids live in their own little world sometimes and don't always show their hurt and pain like we do. However, there is no doubt the hurt and pain exists. My instinct is to tell him that I have lost all respect for him based on the way he is treating his kids. I know this would be a LB but dang it, it's the truth and he needs to hear it. Why pretend WE are ok. WE are not ok. Our kids are growing up without their father in their lives. I hurt so much for them. <P>Our D is not that self-confident anyway and this I'm afraid is really destroying her trust in people. She doesn't even want to talk about her Dad. When the 5 year old says, let's call daddy or when is daddy coming, etc, she just tells him to drop it and not talk about it. It's like she can block it out completely as long as she doesn't hear his name. I do not talk about their dad in front of them and when we are together we do not fight. I'm sure this is even more confusing for them. <P>If this keeps up, I do not think I can continue my love for him. Hurting and betraying me is one thing and I can accept his rejection of me but not of the kids. I think it is time for me to turn on the big fan and blow some of the "fog" out of his eyes. How can anyone be so blind? <P>L

Odviously he is a jerk, sorry to say that but as a father his actions are inexcusable! You are probably better off without him but I know the kids feel differently. I am so sorry for your pain!

Also something to consider - 75% of men have no contact with their kids 18 months after divorce. This does not speak will of us as a gender!

Hi ladies ~<P>I had a similar experience when my H moved out. He broke many promises, didn't call, when he DID talk to them on the phone it was a 15 second conversation....<P>Boy did it make me furious to see him behave so selfishly and hurt our children so badly. It takes a selfish person to have an affair in the first place - and in circumstances like these...we get to see just how selfish they really are. I also believe that there is a great deal of guilt going on - and rather than face the pain of their children, and face the guilt of what their actions are doing to their little ones, the WS avoids the kids. It is a consequence that they don't want to deal with.<P>My H actually told me that my kids hurt was all my fault - if I wasn't so darn emotional over his departure and betrayal, they'd be fine!! Their hurt and pain was simply because they were "feeding" off of my emotions, and if I'd just grow up, everything would be fine.<P>So here is what I did - and I can't tell you even now, if what I did is right or wrong or advisable. It's just simply what I did.<P>First of all, I got my kids into a course for children of alcoholics. It was a family activity, and we all went. The kids learned how to cope with their emotions and healthy tools for letting their emotions out. They loved it, and it helped tremendously. My oldest son also went to individual counseling and had to be put on anti-depressants. I actually waited 6 months before doing that...I wish I hadn't. I should have gotten BOTH kids into therapy immediately. It helps ALOT.<P>Secondly, I installed a phone in their play area, near their nintendo and computer and stuff - where they spend most of their time. I taped a card to the wall above the phone with phone numbers to their father, and to several close family relatives. I gave them blanket permission to call those people at any time, without asking me first. <P>Why? Because their relationship with their dad was not about me. So I stepped out of the way. Their dad wasn't going to call them, so I let them have the ability to initiate calls, without me being in the middle.<P>They have gotten alot of support from other family members, who were very understanding and took the time to listen and chat with my boys whenever they called. <P>(the first month they had this phone, they called their father constantly. He complained that *I* was harrassing him by allowing our children to call him)<P>My kids also have a computer - connected to the net. So I installed ICQ so they could IM their dad when they wanted. I also gave them each their own email accounts, and set up Outlook Express with an email contact to their dad. Then I taught them how to use it.<P>The first summer was really rough. I was pregnant, in shock, and they were devastated. And my H was VERY absent from their lives. <P>I just flat out told my children that their dad was sick from alcoholism, and that he had a hard time loving anyone, and that it was NOT their fault. They learned early on, that their father broke alot of promises and that they couldn't get their hopes up when he said something. I didn't call their dad names or badmouth him, but I was very frank and upfront with the reality of the situation.<P>Eventually, it got so bad that I did write my H a long letter explaining EXACTLY what his actions were doing to the boys. I explained how much they loved him and how devastated they were. I wrote examples of conversations that I had with the kids, and I very clearly outlined the consequences of his choices on our children.<P>It did help - but I gave him this letter probably 6 months after he moved out - and his relationship with his OW was becoming pretty rocky (although I wasn't aware of it). Over the next year, my H did struggle to be better with the kids. He made an effort - which wasn't enough in my opinion, but it was better than nothing. <P>Finally though, it was his children that brought him back. He did love them, he just got very lost in the fog of his affair and what I think was and still is a very serious depression. It took 18 months though. <P>Again, let me stress, that I don't know if what I did was the "right" thing. And some of the things I did wont' work with younger children obviously. But it's what happened in my situation. I am not sure what I would do in this situation again - probably much of the same.<P>(((((hugs))))))<P>Hang in there.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Wow, thanks everyone for sharing your stories and isn't it horrible that men can do this to our kids. It really hurts me that he can just cut them off, but I know a lot of it is hurt becuase he misses them, and that the guilt is there too. Why do I know about his guilt? Well, this is what happened next:<P>He called my little one back about two hours later, had a nice long chat especially for her, and then asked to speak to me, and invited himself over. Very unusual because he sees them Sunday and Thursday. I thought after my LB's yesterday, oh no he wants to have the divorce talk now, but he didn't bring it up, so neither did I. <P>I just had him here. He hugged me hello, and I made him a cup of tea. We had a really pleasant conversation, and sorted one of our kid's problems out together. It was heartening. I think he is feeling guilty. He looked VERY strained around the eyes still. Probably couldn't understand why I was being so nice today, but I think I undid some of my LB damage from yesterday. Was he giving me a chance? He did apologise about the phone call from his mother (he hadn't told her we had split, and my eldest let it slip, so I had to deal with that), and acknowledged that it must have been terrible for me. I just didn't reply to that.<P>But hey it went well today!!! The Dobson letter has been part of this, I think.<P>Thanks again, maybe there is hope for all those jerks out there, and NO I did not take offence, because I still feel he IS a jerk for leaving those beautiful kids of ours.<P>Jacky

Nina Too:<P>Good Morning. I do not have children and can not give you advise on this one. Just wondering what happened Friday Night?<P>Michelle

The Children<BR>THE Children<BR>THE CHILDREN<P>The most important thing in your life right now is the CHILDREN. I was more of the "motherly" type in our relationship that the children relied upon for their emotional needs. Since our separation/divorce I've constantly brought things to my x's attention to no avail. As you said, probably because of her GUILT.<P>Well, last week in mediation, I really put all of our children's concern's out on the table. I held nothing back. Hoping this would be a "WAKE UP" call to my x. Since then she has just done things out of spite. But at least she is doing them.<P>When it comes to the welfare of the children, I don't consider LB'ing. I simply consider my girls.<P><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When it comes to the welfare of the children, I don't consider LB'ing. I simply consider my girls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen. <P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Thanks to everyone who replied to me! EWS, below is a copy of a previous post to tell you what happened on Friday night. Thanks for thinking of me!!!<P>Yes the kids ARE the most important thing, and shouldn't be considered in my LB list, but the thing is HE considers me telling him how much they miss him, and their problems a way of making him feel guilty, and therefore a LB to him. I did tell him today that Sam was sleepwalking last night, he was surprised but didn't say anything as to why I thought it might have happened, and when the kids were all wanting things at once, he said "You poor thing, having them at you all the time." WELL excuse me, but the burden would be halved if not for his choices!!!<P>Anyway, he at least did his bit today, and for their sake I am grateful.<P>FRIDAY NIGHT:<P>Well, I'm Home!!!<P>For Bill and EWS THANK YOU FOR YOUR ONGOING SUPPORT. I don't know how I would be doing without you guys.<P>Let me fill you in on some background about tonight's function. I have an interest in the performing arts, and so when we came here I joined a theatrical group. I had been in one in Australia and whetted my appetite with my kids' school in Mozambique (The American International School, no less - fantastic education system you guys have - I know because I am a teacher by trade). After a while, we needed more men to join, and my H agreed, though it was singing and dancing and he's not great at either. We did it as a Plan A thing, and it worked really well, we had a common interest, common friends in a strange town, etc.<P>When we split, I was in the middle of co-directing a small musical, which H was part of, too. But he was also part of another play in which he had the starring role as a soldier returned from war. It is a one act play festival, so actors can do more than one thing. Well, because he was leading man in one, and they needed numbers of men in the other (plus they HAD a director, I was just "co"), I decided to quit, rather than him. This was totally my decision. He said either he would quit, or we could keep doing it together, but I was a mess. Also it made more logical sense for the kids. How could I be running out on them 3 nights a week when their father just left? It worked out better.<P>So the opening night was tonight. If you've read other posts, you'll see that he said it was okay if I wanted to go, so I did. I would not have infringed on his space if he had not brought it up. <P>It was TOUGH! I had a lot of friends there and they all knew about H and I, and were very nice and supportive, but I think I told you I find face to face sympathy difficult. But I held up well, they asked how I was...I said mostly "Fine, how are you?" in reply. No details, no explanation.<P>Of course some didn't know why I'd quit, but I didn't fill them in, because they'll hear soon enough...I just said it was for my kids, which was the truth too.<P>I didn't see him at all before the show, tried not to look out for him, but I think he was keeping out of the way. I had picked a concealed (sp) sort of seat, so I didn't expect him to see me. His soldier play was on first, and several times he stood on stage right in my view, and I didn't think he saw me, and at those times, he didn't make eye contact, so maybe he knew where I was sitting. I tried to look at other things too. <P>He was excellent, a wonderful actor, hidden in the closet, though if his home behaviour is anything to judge by, maybe I should have expected it!!! I had helped him learn his lines, but he never would put the emotion into it with me, so I was seeing it for the first time (funny that, if he'd shown that depth of feeling now and then in our marriage, it might have changed things).<P>When the second play was on (MY play, Trial by Jury - a Gilbert and Sullivan musical) I was just so thrilled with them that I sat there with a huge smile on my face the whole performance. Sheer joy to sing, it really is, and as I had a hand in training them, I was really very proud sitting there. So I was taken aback, a bit, when they were singing the most difficult song, that I risked a glance at H, and he was looking RIGHT AT ME, absolutely no mistake. Now I don't know about you, but I am so glad I was sitting there looking happy when he was watching....and how many other times he looked over I don't know, because I really didn't look that much. But it's nice to know he "found" me in the audience, cos that can be hard to do....and found me looking happy, like you suggested EWS. But really, I was so HAPPY looking at what the group had done, and proud I had a part in it.<P>Anyway as soon as it was over a couple of friends came up, asked me what I thought of the whole evening, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and H's performance in particular, which I said was superb (if he asks anyone what I thought, which I doubt, he will at least know that I thought he was good). <P>And then I did what I said I would do. I got into my car and went home. I would have loved to stay around and talk to people, but that would have looked to him that I was trying to get his attention. But I did it. I conducted myself well again, I thought. That's the Aries strength coming out. I think he would have expected me to at least tell him what I thought before going, but I HAD told him I wouldn't be hanging around. <P>So anyway, I hope it makes him think a bit more. Even if it doesn't change his mind, you are right, Bill, I will have my self respect. And he won't be able to NOT respect me after my consistent letting go actions, no matter what he does.<P>I remember when his sister split from her first husband, she was full of contempt for him because he couldn't let her go. And I remember my dad doing a full turn around when my mum refused to have anything to do with him. The difference was that Dad learned to respect my mum. (MOM in American-spell!)<P>Post-script: another post tells how I LB'd on the Sunday. YUK, but it seems to have been fixed a bit today.<P>Thank you, thank you once again for being my sounding boards. I don't want to think what I might have done by now if I didn't have you guys and MB. I hope you'll keep looking out for me, and I will do the same for you.<P>Take care, especially ((((((EWS)))))) and ((((((Bill)))))).<P>Love, Jacky<BR>

I am so proud of you Jacky! Friday was a big step for you! I tired to find your posting this weekend but must have not looked hard enough. Thanks for posting it here.<P>Also, glad the LB stuff may be on the back burner today. Keep up the good work. Although I do not have children, I know enough to say that they are the most important thing. Love & protect them! <P>My thoughts & prayers are with you.<P>Michelle

sitting in front of all four kids - my STBX stated that NOTHING was to be charged to HIS insurance for the kids (medical care) unless he was aware of it - and approved of the care. The kids know we have NO means of contacting him - only a message phone where he returns the calls MAYBE once a week - and usually not mine then. He also refused to pay any previous medical bills for them.<P>I know the courts will make him pay - the deal is he said all this stuff in front of the kids. <P>YUK - there ought to be punishment for men like THAT. (or women either - I just happen to be dealing with a man)

Oh seekingjoy, that just sucks!!! <P>I would rather not have my kids see the man at all if that is how he is. I was thinking of that today after my youngest's effort to call her dad, but then he came around and did the right thing. I know he has been deliberately cutting contact from them, for his own selfish reasons, and they ARE selfish, because no matter why he is doing it, he has to think of the children first. But he realised she needed him today and he was there for her. At least now I know he's not a complete b*****d but I really feel for you. <P>Bill told me above that the kids come first, so it's not an LB, kinda IS in my case, but anyway, maybe you need to tell him what he can and can't discuss in front of the children. Cos, sorry to say it, he might not even know that it could hurt them. (Sorry in advance men) Sometimes guys are insensitive to the needs of their children, and need a wake up call. I believe my H got one today, hung up on our 3 year old, then thought, "What have I done?" Somehow, you need to give your H a wake up call, too. Good luck.<P>Jacky

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR><B> Oh seekingjoy, that just sucks!!! <P>maybe you need to tell him what he can and can't discuss in front of the children. Cos, sorry to say it, he might not even know that it could hurt them. (Sorry in advance men) <P>Somehow, you need to give your H a wake up call, too. Good luck.<P>Jacky</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>After eleven years of marriage, I learned there is one thing I can't do - and that is tell him what he can and can't say. I never tried to do it - but he kept accusing me of doing it - so I'm sure it would NEVER work.<P>I think his wake up call will arrive with the final divorce papers and a judges order that he pay child support for the next 16 years. He probably won't pay it - dropping off the face of the earth is more likely what he will do - since that's what he threatened if I got child support, so... I guess that's his choice.