Well, It's been two weeks since we've closed and moved into our duplex. So far it's been okay. The first night we all slept in the living room until we bought beds... then the kids moved into their room on the first floor, I in my room on the first floor and my H upstairs... the kids didn't really ask any questions. And, we haven't talked with them yet.<P>Last week when we were talking about what to say to the kids, it brought on a torrent of anger from him. He said some harsh words to me and it hurt. My reaction... I tried to stay calm... I kept saying to myself, "he does NOT define your reality, God does." It was like a mantra to me... otherwise I would have crumbled under the anger.<P>Anyway, he expected me to *punish* him with silence or sharp words (as this used to be my pattern) and I did neither. I just distanced myself a bit... I mean there are natural consequences to talking to someone like that. I just didn't retaliate. I know he's frustrated.<P>It has been good this last week. We've been shopping together, I buy two of everything. At first, it was wierd. Now, I'm kind of used to it. One for first floor, one for second floor. I think we're in a transitionary time where we gradually separate. Instead of choking it off all at once. This is likely going to be the way of it... try to deal with each other gently and slowly back away from each other.<P>Ahh soo, this is the end. It doesn't feel like it. It feels like we're becoming friends. There is no pattern to follow so I just take it one day at a time... I need to make more of an intentional effort to meet his ENs - which I think of primary importance are conversation and recreational companionship. I'm just not sure where SF fits in with him... all I know is that he has to be emotionally free and connected with me before he'll even think about that. Any SF he thinks of now just hurts him even repulses him because of past pain and old patterns.<P>So, I've retreated. I'm going to have to learn to make a life for myself. He's been exceedingly kind and giving to get me comfortable. I've never noticed just HOW much he tries to meet my littlest need and that he really listens to me.<P>Ohhh, the past... why is it like that? Will I ever be free from my old hurtful words and actions...? I know God forgives me but the consequences of carelessness and thoughtlessness and selfishness are well... forever.<P>Just thought I'd update you. To anyone thinking about this idea, I'd recommend it. BUT, not if there's STILL another person involved. His bedroom is directly above mine and yes, I can hear his every movement during the night... when he wakes up when he goes to bed... God knows how crazy I'd go with any OTHER noise!<P>Thanks for all your encouragement and thoughts... now I just need to get everything settled, including the kids and then decide what the heck I'm going to do with the rest of my life.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Ohhh, the past... why is it like that? Will I ever be free from my old hurtful words and actions...? I know God forgives me but the consequences of carelessness and thoughtlessness and selfishness are well... forever.<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Wow. That third sentence is powerful!<P>I think everyone needs to remember that. Even when you are dealing, maybe especially when you are dealing, with you children. You break a toy - and sometimes it's forever broken. You break a heart - and sometimes it's forever broken. And, even if you fix it, there's often a permanent scar<BR>

I flippin cannot believe this!<P>Thank you, OvrCs!<P>My husband use to kid around about us getting a duplex, altho in hindsight I think he was half way serious.<P>So, can I ask questions?<P>~ Do you two have a exclusive relationship understanding?<BR>~ How are the bills handled?<BR>~ Do you have keys to his and he to yours?<P>Thanks in advance for answering, Hon.<P>Jo

Hi Resilient... (I love that name... it's like a motto for me)<P>We're just working out some of the details... so here is the answer to some of your questions. Keep em coming because I need to think them through before it actually happens! I do better that way - prevents my LBing<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>~ Do you two have a exclusive relationship understanding?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We don't have a formal understanding. We've both stated our preference NOT to date other people for a couple of years so as not to disrupt the kids' lives (yeah, well why not try NOT divorcing then?). But, we've agreed that if we do see other people to do it away from the "house" and when we have our time alone. We're moving towards 50:50 joint physical and legal custody.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>~ How are the bills handled?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, right now, I still pay the bills. We've talked about splitting up accounts. Basically, he uses one card and I've opened a Discover account on my own. I use his card when we have joint expenses. Otherwise I use the Discover card. However, we still have one checking and two savings accounts. I am not working regularly, as I'm a consultant. I put the money into the accounts when I get paid and his regular paycheck comes in there for now. We've talked about splitting the mortgage with him giving me child support credit (based on some internet calculator for 50:50 joint physical and legal custody). So, as I see it, he has the lion share of the bills to cover because his check comes in regularly. But, I'm making sure all bills are paid... <P>We'll have to start working it out separately soon. It's sad but it's like a slow disintegration. But, it's not overtly painful so I keep plugging along. Some days I'm just down and out... depressed and other days I'm fine. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>~ Do you have keys to his and he to yours?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Our house was built in 1908 as a single family home. It has been split up and down - they call it an "inlaw" apartment. There is a common enclosed front porch and then two front doors. We keep both doors open and the screen door locked so the kids have free access to upstairs and the first floor and we've designated the basement as common territory. So, when I go to Sam's Club and buy heaps of things, I put the excess downstairs and he has access to it. Also, cleaning stuff is down there and there is an old rec room for the kids - suitable once we get the radon mitigated!<P>Oh, so yeah, we both have keys to both homes. Though I respect his with for privacy and stay downstairs. We usually eat meals together still... sometimes upstairs and sometimees down here. It's wierd but he states that this is transition. <P>We get along fine now. It's becoming a very *friendly* divorce process... he hasn't filed yet but I'm sure that will happen once we get settled and he gets his space settled. <P>There are two garages, two back doors and one outside door to the basement. So, if it gets bad, he could live quite independently without HAVING to come into the first floor.<P>Right now the kids are sleeping down here because he's painting an underwater sea mural scene in their room upstairs. They don't really get why they're having two rooms... I think it's a little disconcerting for them but I think they're happy we're no longer yelling at each other... like we were a year ago.<P>So, there ya have it! Any more questions?...<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>I don't know how I feel about it... I try not to dwell on it too much and just try to make it comfortable for the boys... Oh I have my b*&ch sessions once in a while and I'm frustrated but ya know... I'm working on me and being a better mother. It's kind of nice not to have to work on being a good wife! My filter with him is "treat him with kindness." <P><BR>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited August 06, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>Ohhh, the past... why is it like that? Will I ever be free from my old hurtful words and actions...? I know God forgives me but the consequences of carelessness and thoughtlessness and selfishness are well... forever. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let the great man speak:<P>"Every moment in life comes to you pregnant with devine purpose. It is there to do with as you please. After that, it escapes into eternity, to remain forever what you made of it." ................Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, circa 1954<P>Nicole,<P>You are really getting the idea now. Bad thing about letting those ugly remarks pass from the lips,, (we've all done it), is that once you let em loose, you can never get em back.<P>You are doing great! Just keep in mind, the fact that you made a mistake twenty years ago leaves you under absolutely no obligation whatever to repeat that mistake today. It is going to take a while for those changes to become second nature, and for others to realize that the change has taken place. Twenty two years ago I was known as a drunk. It took several years before people really believed that I stopped drinking. Today, there is virtually no one who can remember when I drank; it rarely ever comes up in conversation unless we need a designated driver. Time does heal a lot.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

Hi Bumper... (hey, how's that new computer?)<P>Thanks for your words... yes, encouragement and yes, discouragement. TWENTY YEARS?! I asked him how long... he said nine years we've been married, it will take at least that long to heal.... Oh my stupidity and Type A nature - say it as I see it without thinking of the consequences...<P>Ouch. Well, I'm making progress - one day at a time.<P>Cheers,<BR>Nicole<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

Well, I don't know if this is exactly Plan A or not... but here goes...<P>My youngest son comes downstairs, after playing upstairs with Daddy, with his underwear off and says, "Mom, oops, I had an accident." and hands me the underwear. I asked him he if went and got cleaned up. Yes. So, then I asked "Who told you to bring these to me?" His reply, "Daddy!" <P>I simply walked back upstairs and said to him, "Are you kidding me?" and handed him the underwear. He said, "I don't have a place to wash them." I just turned my head to his bathroom sink and washing machine and dryer. He then asks, "Oh.. send him back upstairs with some toilet paper." OMG, I'm going to have to think this through...<P>Reality hits...<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited August 07, 2001).]

Nicole,<P>That was cute, but you are right, one does have to think about these things before acting.<P>First off, as an experienced father, let me assure you, one has never really been anyone's dad until one has been up to one's elbows in poop! Took a while, but I actually got to where I can change a diaper in twenty two seconds flat.<P>But given that you don't really want the situation you're in, what happened could go either way. It might bring him into touch with the reality of divorce and separation and the traumatic effect all this is going to have on the children. On the other hand, he may have taken your actions as a mild rebuke.<P>One way or the other, it isn't fatal error. Sure hope you will keep sharing when these things occur. Your arrangement seems to be unique, but it just might work.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

Thanks for the prayers and stuff... sure wish we could quantify or qualify what that *stuff* is but does it really matter?... it's prayer and more! I like it.<P>Well, I'm giving it the ole college try. But, there are days when I just don't know. I think it will go much better once I surface from these blasted boxes! Geeszh... and this heat. LORDY ME! Anyway, there's just so much to do and I beginning to whine... cheese anyone?<P>Ok, thanks for your support, I definitely need to bounce the good, the bad and the ugly off of you all other wise, guess WHO gets it? And,... well, that's not good.<P>I think I'm starting to fall into withdrawal actually... kind of resigning myself to this disintegration that he's been planning since last September... Oh well. <P>Tomorrow we have visitors, and I asked the kids if they'd be willing to sleep upstairs with Daddy. The youngest cried and the middle one said, "Let's go now!" and the oldest was strangely silent. So, we'll see how it goes. He doesn't have their beds set up yet... just the mattresses as he's still painting the mural on the wall up there. Wish we had a place for pictures and I'd post it - he's doing a really good job.<P>OK, it's late and I would like to read some before hitting the sack.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P><P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

Twenty two seconds? YOU SLACKER! <BR>Nicole...take a step back from where you responded...and go third person here. Why did Daddy do that? Because he knew that you would take care of it, OR he is an inconsiderate [censored], OR he knew that you would do exactly what you did...or something else...point is...why did he do it? WHAT DO YOU THINK? What did you think then? I'd wager that you felt somewhat used, and since things are the way that they are...you wanted to 'call him' on it. Teri does that, too (his thing, not yours.)...wants it both ways. I LB'ed big time the first few times, I caved a couple of times. Now, I just say I don't think I can support that, and never answer why...I let her take her own meaning from it (which she does anyway!). I ask you this because it seems to me that you went up there, and your comment (very cool, BTW...major LB, but an LB to an LB...HEY CONFLICT STAGE!!!!!!) seemd to be saying (to me)...ordinarily, I might have just taken care of this, but since you have placed me outside of our marriage, I will not accept this type of behavior. Or something like that, anyway. Now, why did he do it? Is he even aware? It is a petterned response...he's still in your marriage, Nicole...he does not trust your 180 on angry outbursts, and perhaps he is subconsciously testing you...What meaning have you taken from it? What other meanings are possible? What can you change about your beliefs that would change future interactions like that one into positive outcomes? What resources do you have that will assist you in that effort? What resources do you need? What resources does he have that can assist? This is one of the major differences in goal setting, and NLP positive outcomes. You can take what seems like a failed interaction, and fix the impediments...and next time there will be a positive outcome...then you plan what you want, how to get there, and you have the tools to be successful. If you are type A, then you have motivation, committment, stamina and a lot of other positive qualities that you can 'bring to bear on the problem'...just don't be too type A....People are not the problem...the problem is the problem. -Mike

I'm not sure this was a lovebuster.<P>That would be determined by the attitude Nicole had.<P>She could have marched up there like a Viking conquerer. Or like an angry woman. Or she could have gone up and been very matter-of-fact. Or she could have gone up there and been very gentle.<P>Personally, depending on the child's age, I would have asked the child to wash them by hand. Natural consequences.<BR>Not a two year old but a four-year old.<BR>

I have to disagree there...I think it is HIS determination if it was a LB, or not...it seems to me it could be taken a number of ways, as you have suggested...my point is that if there are only two ways to take it, a WAS is going to stoke their own fire, and call it a Love Buster...whether it is, or not...so, my opinion (to respond to your implied question, that is...) is that it was not Plan A, and it was taken as Love Busting...because in a normal relationship, the purpose of that (again, to me) would have been to call attention to the fact that I was not handling a responsibility, and thought I would foist it upon my wife...so, in a WAS situation...all I would be able to hear (zero experience here...remember, I'm a BS) is 'this is more of the same thing that you are leaving.'<P>That is what I mean by taking the second perceptual poaition, and why I posted that quote about the meaning of your communications being defined by the receiver, not your intent. See, we allow ourselves to be offended by what WE define as LB behavior, and IT RULES US. Ironic, BUT that is being a doormat...not changing how you respond...that is taking control. When we take the bait, and run...we make a number of mistakes (Nicole, I am not talking about your situation...Cinderella...you are right about this aspect of it...we can define our intent...but not their reception of the message.) So, you may feel right...you may be right...and you will still lose, and ultimately be wrong. The first given is that we are not dealing with rational, caring people...we are dealing with largely self-absorbed automatons...so, the 'normal' rules are out the window. They have changed their rules...it should not surprise us that we have to change ours, too...just not to their set of rules...that would be too messy, I think! -Mike

Cinderella you write: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She could have marched up there like a Viking conquerer. Or like an angry woman. Or she could have gone up and been very matter-of-fact. Or she could have gone up there and been very gentle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I wasn't angry and I wasn't gentle. It was more sarcastic like, "You've got to be kidding, right?" No raised voices. Just a scorned look like "gimme a break buddy." Anyway, I do think it was a bit of a LB but I also consider it a boundary to what I think is necessary for me to do when there are others who could do it... which leads me to your next quote.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, depending on the child's age, I would have asked the child to wash them by hand. Natural consequences. Not a two year old but a four-year old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BRILLIANT! Now why didn't my neanderthal brain think of that! I just get frustrated and do it myself. I've got to get my brain thinking that way.<P>Mike, I need more time to think through you answer... I will be back with some thoughts. Now you've really got me thinkin' and I like it... so much better to plan than to just react!<P>Thanks all! Cheers!<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waiting_for_her:<BR><B>Nicole...take a step back from where you responded...and go third person here. Why did Daddy do that? Because he knew that you would take care of it, OR he is an inconsiderate [censored], OR he knew that you would do exactly what you did...or something else...point is...why did he do it? WHAT DO YOU THINK? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>I think he thought I'd just take care of it. He also stated that all of the kids' clothes are still downstairs. He said that last time he cleaned someone's underwear they got lost. So he didn't want that to happen again. So, those were his words. Bottom line, why did he do it? He couldn't be bothered.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'd wager that you felt somewhat used, and since things are the way that they are...you wanted to 'call him' on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and I like your response. "I can't support you on this." <P>It's a very delicate balance... because yes, we're separated but yet he hasn't filed for divorce yet. He says he will. So, do I just continue on as though we're married? Would I do it if we were married? No, I might have yelled at him. So, there has been progress. It's a matter of defining what I want and not react based on the ambiguity of my circumstances. Anyway, if circumstances were different, would I treat him differently? I don't want to. I want to treat him the same - he can take care of that. I need to think about this I can see.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I ask you this because it seems to me that you went up there, and your comment (very cool, BTW...major LB, but an LB to an LB...HEY CONFLICT STAGE!!!!!!) seemd to be saying (to me)...ordinarily, I might have just taken care of this, but since you have placed me outside of our marriage, I will not accept this type of behavior. Or something like that, anyway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, this is true but I don't want to "take care" of things like that when he's capable just unwilling or irresponsible. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, why did he do it? Is he even aware? It is a petterned response...he's still in your marriage, Nicole...he does not trust your 180 on angry outbursts, and perhaps he is subconsciously testing you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> or maybe he's just lazy. Not sure if he's still in the marriage but sometimes I think so. Like everything I buy, we get two of. Now, does that sound like a man who wants independence?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What meaning have you taken from it? <BR>What other meanings are possible? <BR>What can you change about your beliefs that would change future interactions like that one into positive outcomes? <BR>What resources do you have that will assist you in that effort? <BR>What resources do you need? <BR>What resources does he have that can assist? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>a) he still wants to do things together - resolve things together.<P>b) he could be too lazy to take care of it. it's not like he doesn't want too, just doesn't feel like it. has been taken care of most of his life and so, just thought he'd let it slip by.<P>c) I don't know what in my beliefs I could change. I suppose I did have a disrespectful judgment and assume that he was lazy. I could go up and ask him about why he gave it to me rather than allow it to trigger a negative response in me that makes me feel taken advantage of.<P>d) resources? time - time to think about what I'm thinking/feeling... reflection of how I'm going to respond and how NOT to take it personally... use of the very effective "giving him the benefit of the doubt" before drawing conclusions... ah ha... this is a pattern in me!<P>e) I need something in my head that gives me more time between the "stimuli" - son giving me his dirty underpants, and my "response" - so that I don't jump to conclusions and feel the *world* or others are always out to get me so how can I get them first. Hmmm... this is scary!<P>f) Honesty - he's honest as long as I don't punish him for it. This is something he's pushed aside now... because of my getting upset (silent treatment, or hurt feelings or anger) in the past. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is one of the major differences in goal setting, and NLP positive outcomes. You can take what seems like a failed interaction, and fix the impediments...and next time there will be a positive outcome...then you plan what you want, how to get there, and you have the tools to be successful. If you are type A, then you have motivation, committment, stamina and a lot of other positive qualities that you can 'bring to bear on the problem'...just don't be too type A....People are not the problem...the problem is the problem. -Mike[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I'm trying to be <I>SOFT</I> on the person and <B>hard</B> on the problem. Thanks Mike. I knew all of these things but the problem is that time between the stimuli and my response... I guess it's my world view that I'm not worthy to be here and others are always trying to demonstrate that... my response is always PROVE YOURSELF WORTHY. Well, it doesn't work... God help me with another WAY!<P>Thanks for your care! You always give me tremendous food for thought!<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P><BR>ps - what's your work and sleep schedule again? <P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited August 09, 2001).]

Mike, you really don't proofread, either, do you!!! I'm making more of an effort now, after last night!!!!<P>Loved your advice here...perception the spouse has of the situation is what makes the LB, and we all should know what the LB's are for our own spouses to avoid them...As you know, my H did a number on me today, he KNOWS I value the fact that he spends time with them, and that it would get my goat if he is non-committal with arrangements for them. So he knows my LB's as well, he's just using them to feather his own nest. If he can. I will try to follow the advice that you gave me in my post, and that was about the way we phrase things can make all the difference...that really hit home with me and I will take great pleasure in telling you when I do it.<P>OvrCs, such a small incident in normal family life, but this isn't normal! Today, my H sent our 5 year old in from the yard to fetch some cookies (I use the American term there for your benefit, they're biscuits to me) AND his freshly made cup of tea. I gave her the cookies, but I took the tea out for him. Now, I think, did he set that up??? I would not let her carry boiling tea that distance when he was here, and he knows it! But I just took it out and gave it to him, trying to plan A. My post for today tells how I later blew it!!!<P>You might want to read that post for Mike's response, because I thought it very good. Approach to the situation is everything. Yes you were annoyed, but maybe it could have been an opportunity for a love bank deposit, if you'd waited a couple of seconds. Was it so hard to do it yourself? Could you have gone up there and said something like "Oh, I see little Johnny (or Johnette) has had an accident while up here, did he make a mess anywhere else? Here, I got you this carpet cleaner...I'll clean these duds while you get to that". TOTALLY different message! See, I learned that from Mike today! Thanks Mike, and I hope I helped here.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>sure wish we could quantify or qualify what that *stuff* is but does it really matter?... it's prayer and more! I like it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aw, Cmon Nicole,<P>*stuff* is a wildcard! It can be anything the reader would like it to be. Anything from regards to the cyber hug, the bear hug, hugs and kisses, XXXXs and OOOOOs, thinking of you, and at the right time, at the right place, with the right person, it can even be a little love pat on the pooh - pooh! <P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

<B>NinaToo</B>... oh, you're from down under... one of my very best friends is from NZ! I take it you're from 'Stralia? I do have some friends from there but do they ever set my head to spin! The way Aussie's approach life is such a whammer to me sometimes. Anyway, I get your point... and yes, I could have done that should have done that but ya know... sometimes I just feel like I'm capitulating my *you know what* off!<P>Anyway, talk to ya later... my mom just drove up for a visit! Tea time!<P>Bumper... love ya man!<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited August 09, 2001).]