Jacky-<BR>I've not been able to read this site for a day or so because of the speed (or lack thereof- it's got to be a nimda virus thing. I'm in Minneapolis, where <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com</A> is registered, and a lot of ISPs here are having nimda problems). So I'm sorry I wasn't able to leap right in here with some comforting words for you.<P>Good God, your story makes me want to scream, and it didn't even happen to me- I can't imagine how angry you must be. No one should have to put up with a spouse bringing home tiny pubic livestock (and no, you can't get them from the toilet seat, never could). I think the other comments about your H's self-esteem issues are probably right on the mark, and sexual addiction is possible as well. <P>I know the subject of this thread says you're not thinking along these lines, but you are in the trough of the roller coaster, so keep this in the back of your head: if he shows up at your doorstep saying "take me back," you'll have to think about some conditions, and one of them should be intensive therapy for him. He has "issues," as they say, and he's trying to deal with them using an organ other than his brain. That must stop.<P>All in all, Jacky, you sound healthy- angry and disappointed, but you've got your priorities straight. Just hang on, because you're going to ride that roller coaster for a while.<BR>

Thank you so much Anna and dabigtrain. I feel kind of numb and at the same time I have this deep within me urge to scream. How could I have been so blind? <P>Sexual addiction is interesting, but if it was purely that, he would have been jumping me all the time, and that wasn't the case. We were probably twice a week for most of the relationship...but when it happened it was great. However, he was looking at internet porn the past 18 months that I know of. Not a lot to my knowledge, but he knew it upset me and mostly covered his tracks. <P>One particular day I found he had been there and we had words about it. He promised he wouldn't do it again. I went out the next night, and he DID do it again. Covered all tracks bar one. When I asked him why, he said sorry, he did try to erase it so I wouldn't get upset. No remorse about doing that again, just annoyed I could be so upset. This, btw was after 1st A, so I was particularly sensitive about what he looked at. <P>Dabigtrain I have read a number of times that it is possible to get pubic crawlies from toilet seats. Can I ask you how you know they can't? I read it on those medical sites. I look back at that time, and really I just believed his explanation, I was not overly concerned. What a chump.<P>Most of my depression right now is knowing I was fooled for so long. I just feel like I will never, ever trust anyone with my love again, if it can mean so little to someone. <P>Just want to wash my hands of this guy, this person to whom I gave my heart and my life, and he trashed them. My life has been radically changed because he made decisions about our relationship that didn't include me, without caring how I felt. Because of him I have to make a new life. It wasn't my choice, but now I have to do it. <P>He broke my heart, but he hasn't broken my spirit.<P>I'm starting to think I should tell him to start the divorce...then I think it may be immediate reaction to dealing with these new revelations. Well Plan B is a reality now.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>Sexual addiction is interesting, but if it was purely that, he would have been jumping me all the time, and that wasn't the case. We were probably twice a week for most of the relationship...but when it happened it was great. However, he was looking at internet porn the past 18 months that I know of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He wouldn't necessarily be jumping you all the time- some sexual addicts, from what I've read, crave the chase and conquest, which is obviously a big part of the affairs. The 'net porn is a good hint, too- if he feels enough guilt over cheating that he's not going to do it constantly, on way to scratch the itch is over the 'net.<P>I'm obviously unqualified to make a diagnosis- I just think it would be an interesting line of inquiry for a therapist, should he ever get himself together enough to go to one.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dabigtrain I have read a number of times that it is possible to get pubic crawlies from toilet seats. Can I ask you how you know they can't? I read it on those medical sites. I look back at that time, and really I just believed his explanation, I was not overly concerned. What a chump.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm, I've always heard that you can't get STDs from the toilet seat, that that was just an old wives' tale (or old husbands' tale, more likely). But I actually only heard that about syphillis, gonnerhea, etc.; the things for which the bugs can't live outside the body for very long. Maybe the tiny livestock is a different story. If you've read so in reputable sources, obviously, they know more than me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just feel like I will never, ever trust anyone with my love again, if it can mean so little to someone....<BR>He broke my heart, but he hasn't broken my spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you start really beliveing (not just a passing thought, but for real) that you can't trust anyone, then he has broken your spirit. Don't let him. <P><BR>

dabitrain,<P>I went to some sites after your previous post and soem say you can catch lice from toilets, others you can't some say RARELY. The don't live for long off the body. I don't know...doesn't matter because I know what he did anyway.<P>I have been thinking about the sexual addiction thing too...he wouldn't be needing to jump me if he was getting it elsewhere, would he?<P>I don't know about the love thing right now...I don't want anyone else to hurt me. I suppose once this is well behind me and I realise the lessons I have learned here, I may one day want that. But not now.<P>I can't speak to him now, I know I will let fly about how much pain I have had. It is all I can do not to send him a really fiery email, complete with links about the std's, and tell him to go to hell.<P>I am searching for that little bit of love that's supposed to be still there when you move to Plan B, and I can't find it. I really can't. I know, I'll be up and down again over this, even this. The destruction of the view of my marriage. I was married to someone I didn't even know. I was married to a dream.<P>

Hey Jackie,<BR>Go with your gut honey... Look with in your self and you will find your will...... <BR>By the way how was the move I have not got a chance to talk to ya...<BR>Wishing you well<BR>Janet

Hi Janet,<P>I thought I sent you an email when I got here...maybe it got lost.<P>The move is okay, but I am still without wheels, and any real money, so I am rather dependant on my parents at the moment. It's okay...I will be fine. I have a car coming soon. Then I will start looking for my own place. It's just too hard being here, Mum and Dad are fed up with us already, though they don't comment. I just know.<P>Being away from him has allowed me to think too, I wonder if he realises that...who cares anyway. He is scum.<P>I know, I know, I'll be back here in another couple of days retracting or refuting today's post...it's the nature of this thing. But right now, once again, I hate him. <P>It's anger, pure and simple that I could be so duped for 17 years. <P>Sigh, thanks again for listening.<P>WIFFTy, LH, idostylin, EWS, Mike, are you there? (Anyone else is welcome, too, of course.)

Jacky, Jacky, Jacky,<P>Find a soccer ball and kick the hell out of it for awhile, then find a baseball bat and go to a junk yard, and beat up on an old car for awhile, then go to a weight room or a gymnasium, and pump iron until you can't any more, and then your anger will begin to dissipate.<P>take out the anger on something inanimate, or exercise to stimulate some endorphins.<P>OK, next, the roots of a serial adulterer lie in the beliefs of what being a male stands for, caveman style of course. this belief comes from the family of origin. these beliefs cannot be found without good psych knowledge of people.<P>relax, none of us was schooled to looked for these latent defects when we were in our young 20's. don't blame yourself, however, just look to understand.<P>for me, I knew something happened in my XW's family around this time to her mum, but it was hushed up. XMIL had depression, was hospitalized, did not go to counseling to get treatment, just came back angry, had an EA and then threatened XFIL with knives. <P>XFIL stayed with crazy mum because he was afraid to be alone, or so he said. He kept the family in tact by being a servant and giving everyone anything they wanted, and then never directly said anything but used guilt and manipulation, learned from his mother.<P>X fed me all kinds of lines, "i have such low self esteem. . . . " "Don't ask me questions, i don't know how to say no. . . . " (just after she said "No!")<P>so don't take it out on yourself, that's why the mantra of MB is to work on yourself. that's the only person you can change and improve AND be a good model for your kids.<P>My X wanted out, and after 5 months, I gave it to her, then she turned around and did the yelling, blame act. . . . <BR>(the guy she wanted left her, even though he was JUST divorced from his wife after his wife found him cheating with one of his body building students.)<P>called me immoral for following our agreement, because she wouldn't follow our agreement. (you see her manipulation) even the mediator had to talk to her. . . the threats I just ignored, but really those are signs you CANT ignore. so i learned some more stuff about relationships.<P>Jacky, they come in all types, weirdos that is. if they are 5% of the population, and the population is NOT shrinking, then there are more and more of them everywhere. Keep your eyes open, as you may be attracted to them because of your FOO imprint. <P>counseling is wise in this situation to assure yourself youur values are intact, and you are responsible for only your part of the demise.<P>good luck, <BR>you will make it<P>sWIFTTy<P>

WIFFTy I will email you...I don't want to say too much about it here. Basically I THINK you ar right about FOO stuff. But I will detail to you in email soon.<P>Thanks.<P>BTW, I would go and kick the hell out of something, but I seem immobilised by the deep sads right now. I AM going for a walk tomorrow, so I will make it a real power walk. Maybe it will help.

Dang, as you guys say!!!<P>I just remembered another probable A.<P> <P>Funny thing is, as I always had a higher libido than him, I thought it would be me doing this.

Nina,<P>I agree totally with DABIGTRAIN. Sex addiction doesn't mean he'll be jumping the spouse all the time. Here's one site I think you might wanna see <A HREF="http://www.aamft.org/Clinical_Updates/Infidelity.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.aamft.org/Clinical_Updates/Infidelity.htm</A> <P>Talk to ya soon girl.<P>ANNA<P>

Jacky about libido.. My H had a high libido in the beginning of relationship, but later never initiated love making. Said he was too stressed. But he never seemed to stressed to sleep with somebody else. Sick world isn't it.

Thanks for the link Anna, I read it, and I would LOVE to send it to H but of course trying to educate them is a bad idea.<P>Pantha...the libido on his part was up and down, he too was tired, but you know it went right up there after A1...makes me SICK to think he had sex with me after a potential AIDS carrier. SICK. What was he trying to do, kill, me???<P>Still angry as you can see.<P>Well, he didn't phone the kids tonight as I expected...<P>GOOD! I didn't have to speak with him.<P>I am Plan B'ing him without the letter right now, cos the letter is likely to turn into a tirade, and anyuway, since I don't feel the slightest bit of love for him right now, it would be a lie.<P>I don't lie, he does.

Well one thing I can say about my H is that when he came back he had the Aids test after the required time, I think 3 months. <P>Jacky I don't know if you remember how angry I was a while back? I was walking around the whole time think 'anger'. It gets a bit better as time goes on. I am a little angry myself right now, but not as bad as 2 months ago.<P>I have to see my H on Sunday when he collects his things. I am so dreading this!! I am getting all those little panic attack things again.

I thought he was collecting his things AGES ago, one morning remember? <P>I know about the panic attacks...I was going through them all day thinking I would have to speak to the SOB.<P>Can you possibly have your maid let him in and out, rather than you be there...pay her extra, maybe? The lure of the rand always seemed to work for me! And if not her, a close friend, or family member. <P>I think you should NOT have to see him if you don't want to. Think about it will you? It will just cause you grief.<P>As you knopw I have kids, so I HAD to see him when he came for them. All times bar one it knocked me sideways. I feel so much stronger now, knowing I don't have to see him and his cheating face.<P>I am STILL angry!!! But having fun with it now!!!

Jacky:<P>Haven't talked to you ihn awhile-been having trouble getting on the site.<P>You know what, i have learned it is OK to be angry. it is OK to feel however you feel. The trick is what you DO with those feelings. You bring them here, and that is good. There will always be someone here who has had them before. You fel angry-and you should after what you have gone through.<P>You have so, so much going for you. Just remember he is the fool for giving up a great thing. One day, he will realize that not only is the grass not greener, it is brown and dead. The it will be your show, not his.<P>As you can tell, I am a tad angry myself, but it is good. I feel really free these days. Looking at a great new apartment, thinking of getting an MBA. Just a few weeks ago, I saw life as full of disappointments. Now, I see it as full of possibilities. All a matter of perspective.<P>Just hang in there and feel what you need to. From what I have read here, any man would be blessed to have you, and your kids. Maybe it will be you H, or maybe (just maybe) it will be someone better!<P>Peace Jacky.

Hi ANB3,<P>Haven't seen you for a while, glad you called in.<P>Yes anger is a good thing as long as it is directed in the right way. In my case it seems to be giving me the impetus to get going here...I can't wait until i can get set up in my owm place and just get on with things.<P>Thanks for the nice compliments...everyone here seems so together, nice, kind thoughtful, caring and loving...we all have people who don't want that from us. It's such a waste!

Hiya Jackie,<BR>Well sweetie you are off to a good start. You may not think it now. I know how you feel about living with your parents. I did. And well it was with my father and evi stepmother. See she actually voiced she wanted me and chantz to find our own place. Since I did she has been here twice.<BR>HMMMMMMMM TWICE that sounds familar.<P>Anyway, you will make it. Diverse your anger toward something that will make a difference.<P>Oh and Jackie did I ever tell you that I have an Idiot magnet on my forhead.. I do it is well hidden under my hair, but lots see it...<P>You will make it you made the biggest step there is. The rest is following thru with it.<BR>Don't even wonder what he is thinking. It is his lost. And someone elses much more deservings gain.<BR>(((Noones gain yet for me)))<BR>But that is just me..... lol<P>Anyway Jackie hang in there.<BR>When your done with the soccer ball pass it my way. If it is not flat by then......<P>Wishing us all well<BR> Janet

Jacky,<P>I think what you are going through is normal. the looking back over a relationship in a distant way kind of opens the eyes and allows us to really see what was going on. The old saying of "love is blind" really has some meaning; when you are close to a problem, sometimes it isn't real clear, have to step away to get the full picture. <P>My stbx didn't have much of a libido, either, yet I think he constantly has had women on the side, definitely in EAs and in some cases I am sure there were PAs. I think it was a challenge to him. I would have tried to work on the marriage with lots of counceling and all, but he played one last game and I actually stood up and said I was done. Since I made that decision, I have seen what a shambles my marriage really was, how abused I was emotionally and mentally, and acknowledged the physical abuse he did to our daughters.<P>Go with your gut feeling, they say women have intuition for a reason... it is a safety valve if we use it correctly. Take care of yourself and the children, things will come together and life does go on better without the stresses of living with a person who cares little for your welfare.<P>Lori (p.s. i just brought a puppy in from Queensland last month, what part of OZ are you from?)

Hi Janet,<P>Well another day, another step away from my H. I enrolled all my kids in school and kindergarten today. They will start in two weeks, as it is break time now. This pretty much means that when I find a place to live, it will have to be around here, but that's okay, I like the area, and have a few friends on this side of town. My dad had already contacted both places, and so I didn't have to tell them anything, they knew my situation and were kind.<P>I think as I move forward through the angry place, his folks are following me...they are getting really p****d off at his lack of concern...never calls, money (they don't think he's giving me enough) etc. But they won't talk to him, wouldn't matter if they did, he's not listening, and I don't care.<P>Bangarra, I live in Victoria, Bonnet lives in QLD. What sort of dog did you get...must have cost you a fortune! Yes I do see things much more clearly, and it hurts, but it has also made me move and get things done.<P>I am very intuitive but as I said above, I just kept shutting it out. I should have paid more attention, because my instincts are not usually wrong. <P>To think he could be such an incredible liar! One of the most important things for me is honesty and integrity. he was both, or so I thought. Instead I married a man just like my father, (dad learned his lessons years ago...is now wonderful to mum). I cannot believe I did that!!! <P>

Tonight my H called. I had been dreading having to talk to him yesterday. I have my own phone line here, so I was chatting to his sister on mum's line when I heard the phone in my room, raced up, answered it and said in a hurry "Hi" He said it was him, using his Das Sack voice. I said "Your sister is on the other phone, here's S." And just handed it to S, then went back and chatted to SIL for a bit.<P>I had to round up the other kids so I said goodbye to SIL, and did that. Well he chatted to each child longer than usual, well say 5 minutes each instead of 2. Then he told last child he wanted to speak to me.<P>Here's how it went:<P>(H had Sad Sack voice throughout, slow and low, and down)<P>H: How are you?<P>Me: Okay.<P>H: What have you been doing?<P>Me: Business stuff, enrolling kids in school, things like that.<P>(We talked about medical insurance, he was saying we need to reactivate or private one, and I said, yes and the pubilc one too - to this he said after long pause)<P>H: Yes. (Pause) I suppose you have to.<P>At this point I had to ask...<P>Me: How are you?<P>H: Okay<P>Me: Are you alright? <P>H: Yes, I always get sad when I talk to the kids.<P>Me: (Inward )<P>H: Well...<P>Me: (Sudden MB insight, don't be holding on to conversation, be the first to say goodbye) Well I have to go now Bye.<P>H: Oh! Okay bye.<P>I immediately hung up.<P>Yay for me cos what I really wanted to say is unprintable.<P>Anyway about two hours later he called AGAIN...this costs a fortune and it was something he could have easily have informed me of in email...but he still had the deadpan voice. He has not contacted me twice in one day the whole time he has been away.<P>Okay, here's my point...how come I went to immediate Plan A on that phone call...I am finished with him! Or what?<P>And why do you think he called me back, given the costs involved, when he could have emailed.<P>Tell me what you think, please.<P>This is driving me insane. Well, not really...just annoyed!