Hi<P>I'm new to this particular board because after d-day I was optimistic enough to post in Recovery. You can find my whole story over there, but basically: Married 14 yrs., 2 kids 7 and 5, wife had EA/PA for 1 yr. with married coworker, d-day 7/12. Been in plan A since May (I knew something was up even before d-day). No contact (I think) since mid-August. Wife doesn't have "those feelings" for me anymore, sees little or no hope for reconciliation but sees MC with me anyway, wants separation, and I have agreed to it (like I have a choice). Her description of her overriding feelings re: our marriage at this point - "I just want out.".<P>We haven't seriously discussed separation logistics yet, but we both seem to be flexible about who goes and who stays. I know this is our decision, but I'd like some perspective from those with experience.<P>In the past I've enjoyed taking care of my house and lawn/garden. It's a nice neighborhood and a comfortable place to live. My kids have nice rooms. Part of me thinks that since she wants the separation she should be the one to endure the hardship of finding a new place, moving, etc.<P>On the other hand, the kids are more bonded with her than me and I hate to see them yanked out of their home for significant portions of time (we haven't agreed yet on a schedule for who gets them when). Also, the A took place at least partly in our house so it holds some very unpleasant memories.<P>The house has risen in value since we bought it, so if it comes to divorce the one who stays will have to come up with significant cash to buy out the other. It sort of comes down to stability and comfort vs. liquidity, freedom, and the unknown.<P>I don't think the legalities of abandonment, etc. will enter into this since we're still on pretty good terms.<P>I intend to continue plan A as long as I can, although the little patience I possess is wearing thin. Any opinions about dealing with my situation would be appreciated.<P>NP<P>P.S. - Nina too, I know you did plan A while separated, any words of wisdom on how best to handle that?

This is some of the stuff I went through.<P>Plan A is hard when separated, but it can be done...it's the same thing as when you're together, but a little less frequent.<P>Whenever my H came over, I made sure I looked and smelled good, was pleasant, tried not to raise those burning questions, and just showed him the best me I could be.<BR>And I could see a lot of interest there, let me tell you!!!<BR>He had asked for space, so I didn't phone or email. I still don't unless it is business or kids.<P>Of course now I have moved countries, and it is too hard over the phone. I hear his deadpan voice, and I can't stand it...it is hard because I don't have the visual clues. So I have recently moved to Plan B in my head, but I find I an't do the whole thing yet for financial reasons. <BR>Don't want to upset him, in case I don't get what i want without the courts.<BR>Here's one of my threads:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003697.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003697.html</A> <P>As far as who should move out? I think if it is going to happen, it should not be the one who will be looking after the kids...that is their home and you want to keep it as stable as you can. And really, I also think if she wants out as she says, it should be her going, without the kids.<P>Just my honest opinion!!!<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

I think, to answer your question, NEITHER.<P>I don't post here very often any more, because I am remarried. <P>However, I did go through the divorce process, after trying very hard (for about 13 months) to do a Plan A (although a flawed one at best). One biggie for me was that I kept working with the OP. Even though the affair was over, the OM didn't see it that way. For months, he pursued me, and I kept on working there. I SHOULD HAVE QUIT. It was always covert ways (one story I've told here is about the time I was rearranging keys for an adaptive keyboard and he came to my office and spelled out "*UCK ME"). <P>You know how they say "Hindsight is 20/20" and boy, do I hate that saying -- IT IS SO TRUE.<P>My (then)H moved out over and over again, and it was a mistake. He began to date before the papers were even filed, and in the end, slept with someone else several nights before he came home the last time. He was honest about it, but this was his fifth affair in the marriage (that I know of) and it was the last straw. Had he not moved out, I don't know that he would have messed around again (he'd had several affairs in the 80's, we got through it, and then I had my affair in 1999, confessed immediatly [slept with OM once] and (then)H could not forgive and began succession of affairs himself). What a mess, eh?<P>So, now I am remarried, and I sometimes still miss my ex-H of 20 years. What a damn waste!! We had three children together, and although two are adults (and our teenage son who is living with Dad) they are all hurting from the divorce (I didn't help by moving 4000 away to live with my H in Canada).... I guess what I'm trying to say is that all this (to me) might have been avoided had we put 100% into saving the marriage. YOu can't do that properly while separated, IMHO.<P>Best wishes...

Hi NP..as a WS I will share this with you..<P>First check with a lawyer and find out how that will make it look..in most states the person who leaves..(unless it's under abusive situations) the one to leave is seen to have given up rights to the home..and they are also seen as "abandoning" their families..<P>So, think long and hard about this..and do not make any major decisions while in a high emotional state..if you are not already in counseling..then I'd suggest that you find one..also if you can make an appointment with your family doctor, talk to him about whats going on also, because they may be able to temporarily prescribe some anti-depressants, even though you may not see yourself as depressed..read up on the symptoms..they really help in leveling out the brain and helping to give you a clear head and calm your nerves..so that you can make better decisions..<P>And yes, right now your on good terms but you need to look also that after one of you leaves things will change..either she will lash out in guilt..or you will..you will feel guilty about not being there all the time for the kids, and not spending as much time with them..yes, she may be closer to the kids, but you can work on that..that is something YOU have control over..<P>And you said something about seperation..and you made the comment "like I have a choice" yes, You always have a choice!!! Remember that..YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE!!!! You can tell Her NO, I do not wish to seperate I want to stay and work on the marriage..or you can tell her, If YOU Wish to seperate then that is YOUR choice and YOU can move out..<BR>she can not "force" you out of your home unless it's through a restraining order..(this is something that I get thrown in my face.."YOU kicked me out" No, I didn't I gave my stbxh a choice, he could find another job and actually be home..or he could find someplace else to go to that one weekend a month he was in town" he choose to find someplace else to go) so look at the choices presented you..if she chooses to move out..then that is her choice, you have no control over what she chooses to do..you only have control over your own actions..and you need to be able to learn to be responsible for your own actions..and face the consequences of them..<P>For me, the consequences I had to weigh before I got to that point of giving him that choice to leave or stay was financial, the kids..I was a shm, and I would have<BR>to go back to work, put the kids in daycare, and quit college..so that I could support my kids..I had to be willing to give up everything..in order to have what I needed emotionally..my marriage was horrible even when he was here, but I was willing to work on it..all he had to do was be willing to look for another job and be home and go to counseling..be willing to step out in faith that things would be okay, yes, we would maybe have had to struggle financially for a time..but to me..that would have been worth it..the money wasn't important..it was an emotionally and mentally abusive relationship in many ways..but I think had he been willing to go to counseling and even consider that he had internal issues to deal with we could have worked through them together..but still to this day (it's been over a year) he doesn't feel he has any problems to deal with..I had to face things w/ in myself..and had to work through some of my own internal demons and insecurities..so it wasn't just him that would have had to do some internal searching..but had we been able to talk about them things would have been different..<P>So look long and hard at yourself, and the choices you have made over the years that may have caused your wife to feel the way she does and to why things have gotten to this point...she may also have some things from her past that cause her to feel that way too...but remember you do have a choice in this..don't blame it all on her and don't take all the blame yourself..it really does take two ppl to make it work..<P>As far as Plan A'ing if one of you decide to move out..<BR>decide before hand if you want to date each other so that you can get to know each other again..make a date night for the two of you..(even if you decide to stay together) make a date night..get a sitter, and go out..if finances are such that you can't afford a sitter, then ask a friend who also has kids if you could swap babysitting..you watch their kids one night so that they can go out and have time alone..and they watch yours..it would probably also have a great impact on the other couples marriage as well..so do you have any close friends that you could ask this of?? <P>You could make them fun dates, things that you both enjoy doing and no pressure to discuss maritial problems..you could also start a family night..rent some movies and order pizza, play board games and while your playing you can talk to your kids..about things..and get to know them better in the process..make a trouble box..where everyone writes down something they have a problem with be it school or work..and sit down..and pull out one from each person..and discuss them one at a time..you may not be able to find a solution that night but it's something you would be able to ask about later in the week, how are things going for you in this area? And if you are a praying man..you could sit down together during the family problem night and pray for each other about the problems each person is having..and ask God to give you wisdom on knowing what the best solution would be..I know I ask my kids when about things that trouble them and sit down and pray with them about it..and we are pretty close..and they are able to come to me about things and ask me to pray for them and with them..my stbx was never one to participate in this..and would feel left out..but I did try to encourage him to join in when he was home..I couldn't force him to join..but the choice was there..this will also bring you closer to your kids..and your wife if she chooses to join in..<P> <BR>Sorry it's so long..but I hope it helps..

Thanks for the advice.<P>I've thought about this some more, and am feeling more conflicted than ever. Things weren't all that great in our marriage before the affair, but they weren't that bad either. No fighting or abuse or anything, we just sort of lived like roommates instead of people in love with each other. I guess she built up a lot of resentment towards me and never really let me know (until after I discovered the affair - great, now SHE'S mad at ME).<P>Anyway, she hasn't been stellar in the wife department for awhile, but she's always been a wonderful and devoted mother to our children. I think one of our problems was that she became a mother so completely that she stopped being a wife. There's no doubt at all that she would gain primary custody of the kids if we got divorced - I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in this state (yes, I've consulted a lawyer). Given that, and assuming that a separation might eventually lead to a divorce, I think it might be best for the kids if I'm the one that moves out of the house.<P>That's about what it seems to come down to. Do I do what I think is in my best interest, or do I do what I think is in my children's best interest even though it works against me, works in favor of my wife, and is very very unfair. I guess I'm inclined to seek the best legal advice I can to protect myself in case of a divorce, and to "take one for the team" and find a new place to live.<P>This really sucks. My self-interest is directly at odds with what I think is morally correct. I know I have a choice, but it's not a pretty one.<P>I have said to my wife that I don't want separation, that I think it will make it much harder to work on our marriage, etc. Her mind seems to be made up. Why isn't she thinking about the best interest of our kids? Maybe she's not the wonderful mother I think she is? Does she really think that we're better parents apart than together?<P>I guess if she really wants out, and wants to make the kids move with her, that's HER decision. I could make it easier for her by offering to leave, but that's not really what I want.<P>Arggh. I've now argued this one from both sides. I'm so confused.<P>Thorned Rose: I am on anti-depressants, we are seeing a counselor, and we do still "date" occasionally.<P>NP

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by no_patience:<BR>Thorned Rose: I am on anti-depressants, we are seeing a counselor, and we do still "date" occasionally.<BR>NP[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good to hear..do you spend quality time together?<BR>Have you gone over the MB EN Questionair with her? maybe print it out..and take it to the counselor with you..<BR>and discuss it there??? think about what your needs are<BR>so that you can openly and honestly discuss them with her<BR>and the counselor?? ask her to look over the the things as well and ask her to take some time even till the next counseling session and then you can discuss what she feels her needs are..that you haven't met or aren't meeting?? and maybe figure out how to meet them..ask her what she feels you could do to meet those needs..<P>I did this w/ my stbxh...and I told him how he could best meet my needs..(one of which is a spiritual leader) his response was you should have married a preacher!!! and he told me he couldn't meet the other needs because he didn't know how..(he really didn't want to try) because I gave examples on how he could meet them..<P>So I pray that it works better for you than it did for me..<P>

Hi Thorned Rose,<P>No, we haven't gone over the EN questionnaire but I'd love to. Trouble is, she's not interested in actually doing anything to work on the marriage. She wants to use the counseling sessions to talk about how we grew apart. I've tried to gently puch the MB stuff to no avail. She thinks our situation is so unique (ha!) that this stuff doesn't really apply to us. She says that maybe time and space will allow her feelings to change. I suppose it could happen. It just seems like denial/avoidance to me.<P>Furthermore, she has stated flatly that she doesn't want me to meet her emotional needs.<P>At this point I don't have a whole lot to work with. According to her she's already "tried" enough, and she's just worn out. She gets defensive, though, if I suggest that she's giving up or escaping. Uncle. I can't reason with her and when I do nice things for her it seems to just upset her (though she does thank me). She recognizes and appreciates my renewed devotion as a father, but doesn't believe/care about the changes I have and am willing to make in our relationship. I'm starting to detach a little bit and spend a fair amount of time thinking about how nice it would be to be with someone that actually appreciates me and loves me. I've been hoping that person would be my wife, but my hope is fading fast.<P>I don't know if I believe in "fog" or not. I'd like to think that there will someday be some magical change in her attitude and feelings toward me, but I feel like that's just a fantasy.<P>NP

No-patience,<P>you need patience, and you need to just go one as if you are still married, and you don't move out. Do you really think that just because she is the mom and she get physical custody, that her head is on so straight that she WON'T give your kids the wrong messages with her actions?<P>FUZZY THINKING!! you act as if you are still married, you stay at home, and if she wants to get a divorce, you make her file, meaning that you aviod her manipulating you into what she wants, you do not move out, you make her explain this to the kids, after you have approved what she can say to them, otherwise, she will say that you both want it, and that should not be the case. <P>Now is the time for backbone, and you need to be firm with your position. This situation is not just for the divorce proceedings, but for the rest of the kid's lives, for them to know who was the parent that was the least responsible, and who was responsible for breaking up the family.<P>Sorry, but having gone through it once, and having not been strong, since i thought giving her more of what she wanted, I now see how I had to be more of a leader, and more demanding of her responsibility to the family, and to her parents, etc. MLC are very manipulative, and you need not to be manipulative, even if she is an F personality with no words.<P>WIFTTy<BR>

no_patience:<P>If it comes down to one has to leave and one has to stay, you should move out.<P>You said the children are more bonded with your spouse, so it doesn't matter who's having the affair to me, or even who's fault it is. I have no respect for a spouse who would have his wife and kids move out of the house, no matter what the situation is.<P>My husband moved out and even though I wasn't having an affair and he wasn't having one, this was the right choice. At one point he said he wouldn't move out, that I should. When he said this I had very little respect for him. If he would have stuck to his comment and tried to stay, I would have always thought he was the most sorry whimp that ever walked the face of the earth.<P>Take care and I am very sorry you are going through so much pain.<P>ANNA<P>

Hmmm...<P>So far I've gotten responses suggesting that she should move, that neither of us should move, and that I should move. Looks like the MB community is as divided on this as I am internally. Thanks to those who have given me their input; I do appreciate it.<P>Let me try a different angle to this problem. My wife and I will probably have a serious discussion about this very topic, quite possibly at our next counseling session in a couple of days. My counselor has told me privately that my wife hates it when I'm "weak". The same counselor has also suggested that perhaps the "loving" thing to do if my wife wants a separation is to just go along with it.<P>This seems to me to be a classic example of walking the plan A tightrope between goodguy and doormat. Any suggestions as to how I can show my wife that I'm not going to let her walk all over me, but that I care about her and don't want to make her life more difficult?<P>If I look at the responses from wiftt and Anna, it seems like maybe I'm a wimp if I stay, and a wimp if I go. Frankly, I don't feel like a wimp at all. I'd just like to do that which maximizes the likelihood of an eventual reconciliation without sacrificing my self-esteem.<P>NP

No patience,<P>I don't think wifty was telling you that you are a whimp if you stay or go. I think the advice was to let wife file for your divorce and basically to stay until she does. BTW, most states let's the spouse that has the children keep the house anyway. Which tells me, most states know this is the right thing for the children.<P>I'm sorry you took it the way you did with my advice. I'm very passionate about this. Probably too passionate. I did not say that you should go, if your wife is willing for you to stay and her to stay, then I think you should stay.<P>However, if your wife is saying one of us has to go, and if you don't go, she will and with the kids, then it becomes an issue of what is best for the children. Bottom line, it is best for the children to stay with the parent that they have bonded with the most and it is best for the children to stay in their own home.<P>In my book, children's needs in divorce cases outweights spouses rights of who should have the house. The children already have to suffer because two adults can't keep their marriage together. <P>I remember when my sister got a divorce. She moved out, because spouse wouldn't go. The lawyer told her she could easily get the house, but she said no she didn't want to fight him so she left and moved into a two bedroom run down trailer. My niece and nephew had to live in that piece of crap trailer, away from the friends they grew up with, away from the school they attended, and away from their bedrooms they grew up in. You tell me how that can be right? It was wrong!!! So my brother in law sit in his three bedroom house by himself, feeling proud of himself for getting to keep the house and not letting my sister have it. I think he's one of the biggest whimps that walks the face of this earth!<P>Well, sorry but on this one, like I said it's all about the children and their needs, and when it comes to children, I get pretty passionate.<P>Take care and good luck. I really hope you and your wife work it out.<P>ANNA<BR>

Anna,<P>if you think about it, the socialization of the male as the breadwinner and economic provider for the family is respresented by the quality of the housing that he provides his family, and the economic security.<P>the socialization of the woman as the family commitment supporter, is represented by the quality of the behavior of the kids and their adjustment and growth.<P>Therefore, the woman's liberation movement has moved one part of that equation to nearly equal, the economic equality issue. However, the courts have yet to adjust the male equality to have the male be responsible for the kids more as a percentage of every two weeks, as kids get older.<P>So, these trophies of divorce are really symbols of our beliefs in tradition, which is much more reasurring in times of high stress, and dissolution of traditional strength.<P>I would love to have a house, I would love to afford a house, but after being JUST able to afford a down payment in my town before the divorce, afterwards, there is no way after splitting the assets in half, and being on severance, and entering a recession. Yet, the X has a HUGE, Three floor, 3,500 aq foot house given to her, FREE, with FREE heat and utilities, with FREE full gymn facilities, and <BR>FREE institutional food as often as she wants.<P>BUT it was not her/our house, we could not do anything to it, it was 100+ years old, it has lots of problems, mice and squirrels living in the walls, heat problems, etc, and I could not stand to live like that. We may have to move at any time, depending upon her employer's requirements.<BR>I had a really hard time with a house that I could not do anything with, NOTHING! we weren't even supposed to paint the walls, or do many repairs. THe business manager said I couldn't even make the donation to pay for it, and get the tax write off, because he perceived it as my taking overriding his schedule and authority.<P>I GREW TO HATE LIVING THERE, and X knew it, but she refused to negotiate any deal where we could have our own house 2 miles away, and still work there. She looked at these houses as seniority trophies, and said she is a lifer there, will never move, and suddenly decided she wanted her whole life there, with no other place to go. Most marriages that has a spouse that does not work at the school, don't make it. Most spouses work together at the same school, or they are single people. <P>My pont is, there are beliefs and traditions that people fall back upon during times of internal stress. It sounds to me of what you speak. But also you assume that both people want the divorce, and that is not always the case, and in that case, why do any work for the WS, why make your pain harder on yourself, and easier for them to inflict it?<P>WIFTTy

That was my point, too.<P>If she wants the separation, let HER go, BUT the kids home IS their home, and if she is such a good mum she should realise what is in the best interests of her kids. I think she should go and leave them in their family home and environment, because when it's down to brass tacks, the kids will cope a LOT better in familiar surroundings. I would fight this one...why the heck should YOU leave, and the kids? It gets me MAD! <P>Anna, I agree with you and the sister story...this is one reason I think the kids should stay at home. But this doesn't mean they have to stay there with their mother...it really doesn't. no_patience, stay there with your kids.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky

Wifty,<P>In one breath you said she's got this huge house she gets to live in for free. In another breath you say she's got this huge piece of crap house she gets to live in that you absolutely hated.<P>Is that so bad. It sounds to me like she got the house she loved and you got to leave the house you couldn't stand to live in anyway. So what's the problem???<P>It seems to me like, a lot of people think "Well she or he is the wayward spouse so why should they give up anyting." It is unfortunate the wayward spouse has to give up things but I don't agree with that statement at all if children are involved. While, I do think it is 100% the fault of the b/s spouse for the actual affair, but I also think even if she was the wayward spouse, the quality of a persons marriage that brought the w/s to the point of the affair and their marriage breaking up, must be the responsibility of <I>both</I> parties. There is times when there an innocent spouses in a marriage and you can put less blame on one side than another but usually there is blame on both sides. In some cases such as a spouses with mental unbalance, drug alcohol, physical abuse, sexual addiction and so forth, the spouse with the addiction or mental problems probably has a huge portion of the blame of a marriage splitting up and there may be very little the average spouse with none of these problems can do. But if two people are normal average people having major problems and conflicts in their marriage then usually both parties have percentages of blame. Dr. Steve Harley stated to a friend that although the W/S has to take total responsibility for the actual affair, sometimes the condition of the marriage can be way more the B/S fault than the W/S fault. <P>If one spouse insist on separating and one person must go and one person must stay. If there are children involved, regarding who gets the house I could careless who's fault it is or who cheated on whom, to me the bottom line is the children needs. It may be easy for one spouse to say "Well I think the children need both of us so we're staying together". A person can not make another person stay with them if they don't want to be with them. In some cases I think if that spouse stays and the unhappiness is so great, it could be risking depression and mental problems for the spouse that is feeling trapped. If a mother or father mentally loses it then how will both parents staying together help the children. <P>So once again, if their are children involved and it all comes down to two grown adults messing up their marriage and<BR>if a divorce is inevitable, then it is time for both spouses in <I>every</I> decision they make, think of the children first and quit worrying that you or your spouse is getting crapped on. The parents need to put their children needs first, after all it's not the children's fault that the parents screwed their marriage up. The spouse that didn't get the house just needs to think that his children got the house and some day those children will be very proud that parent did the best they could to make sure they were thought of first during the divorce.<P>Ok, let's say the b/s spouse stays in the home since wayward spouse cheated and the w/s moves and takes the children because emotionally the children are more attached to the w/s. When these children get older and ask this question "Dad, Why did you stay in the house and we had to move from our home?" and dad answers this, "Well mommy had an affair, she's the one that wanted to move and even though you guys deserved the house, Mommy didn't deserve that house so I felt it was unfair to me. Even though you are all the innocent victims, I needed to make sure things were fair for me and even though you guys didn't get to stay in your house and your own bedrooms. Just look at it this way daddy got some justice for mommies affair by keeping mom out of the house." Now, Does that make sense?<P>I know divorce is hard and unfair and one spouse usually gets the better deal than the other spouse and I'm sorry for all things your bad marriage has brought you. I just hope <BR>your children will come first now.<P>Well I feel I've argued this point until I'm blue in the face. So, I am going to leave you to your opinion. I can only state my opinon so many times. If you disagree with me, then so be it. I will not have to answer to these children when they grow up, their parents will.<P>Take care.<P>ANNA<P><BR>

Just to clarify a few points so this debate doesn't rage on in the absence of some important information.<P>1) My wife and I are both employed, and make roughly the same amount. Either of us could handle the mortgage alone. No one is going to be on the street or living in a dump.<P>2) The kids are more bonded to her, but it's not like night and day. They're quite comfortable with me as well, and I love them dearly. I believe that any separation will result in them spending at least part of the time living away from the house. I'm definitely not giving up my right to spend time with my kids because my wife chose to have sex with another man.<P>3) Things weren't that bad with us living in the same house. It was fine for her to live with me while she was cheating on me for a year. Now that I discovered them together and broke up their fantasy it's no longer acceptable for us to live together?<P>4) I don't want to cage her, smother her, abuse her, or even make her uncomfortable. I want the best opportunity I can get to prove to her that I am willing to change, that I want to make her happy, and that I still love her. I want her to stick around, face up to her actions, and at least try to see if we can put a marriage together.<P>5) The kids come first in my book. If she wants/needs more time apart that's fine. I don't feel like I should pay the price for that since it's not what I want. If she's willing to move out I'd be more than willing to establish a situation where she can spend as much time with the kids as she wants - either in the house or out. If it comes down to having them move out or me move out, I'll probably go.<P>NP<P>

DONT WORRY ABOUT HER!!! Worry about YOURSELF and your kids. I say keep your house. She chose to be unfaithful & says she needs space etc. etc. (the usual phrases), let her move out. You'll probably have joint custody anyway, if things didnt work out. I do not think you are wimpish. Just too kind hearted for your own good. I wouldnt trust her, no matter what. <P>I am still under the same roof as my H, though we barely speak & are separate in everything we do. I suspected an EA for the longest time with this hag we all worked with. Now I have come to wonder seriously if there was a PA too. They were away at the same town in the same hotel at the same time for field trips for work. That had to be planned. & though Id like to think maybe they just 'talked' I am not that gullible. H adamantly denies it all, vehemently. Says the more I accuse him, the more he'll see her. I asked him not to & he told me he can't & won't stop seeing her at work, that hes doing nothing wrong. HA!! Because of recent events, I am starting not to care some!! THough the memories of our good times & the ache in my heart from missing the man he used to be (till 5 months ago) is very fresh.<P>ANyway I need to quit yammering. We have a house together. And I fear it will be an issue. One minute he is mad I wont promise to leave it to him & go, the next he says he'll leave it to me! Back-n-forth constantly. He has not filed or nothing yet. Has threatened to many times. I decided that if he wants out, then He can go. This is our home & I will not be forced to leave. My income was half of his (I got fired last week- now job seeking fast!). I had decided if I needed to get 2 other part time jobs with the FT job to keep this house, then that is what I was going to do. He wants to quit this marriage, then he can leave.<P>I also believe he has done everything in his power to make my life miserable & cause me so much pain. I think secretly he hoped I would leave & file for D against him, thus relieving him of any responsability for his choices & life & then he could tell all his friends & relatives that it was ME who wanted a D from him. (NOT TRUE). I have stuck it out so far. I would like our marriage to work out & be healed/reconsiled/rebuild but my hope diminishes more each day. I will not be the one to file, I will not be held responsible for the breakdown of our 9yr marriage when he is the one who sought the attention of a 3rd party. He can file, he can leave. We do not have children. If we did, I think he might have worked harder to make things work out.<P>You mentioned your counselor saying things to you about what your wife thought, "the loving thing to do"?? I'd be finding another counselor!! They should never suggest to you what to do. Ever! You should only be asked the "why do you think that is?" for situations you describe. Or "What do you think would happen if you did . . . . ?" based on circumstances you have told the therapist. They work from your beliefs about your situation & just ask ? for you to delve deeper. They should never tell you what to do, and never tell you that something is right or wrong. That is for you to decide on your own and for the counselor to help you think about it yourself in a clear way, looking at all options. What you said about it sounded one sided for your wife. Write down what are the pros & cons of you keeping the house? What are the pros & cons of letting your wife keep the house? Decide whats best for YOU and the kids and what YOU want to do. I wish you well.<P>Sal.<P>PS. I went back & scanned the thread again. People here told me months ago "work on yourself". It is very hard, but that is what you must do. It has taken me 6 months to have that self talk & guide my own life. I turned myself inside out trying to please my H on what he told friends was the problem (superficial housework crap, I work FT). I cooked, cleaned, never nagged etc etc. When I tried com[plimenting him, he told me I was pretending & when I cried, said "dont bother with the crocodile tears". How cruel. <P>So you see, if your wife doesnt want to allow you to meet her needs, YOU CANT. I still meet rejection & cruelty at every effort. Quit trying so hard. What you do now, is try not to "love bust" as they say. Go about your own business. They say if all else fails do a "180". Do the unexpected. Your wife is expecting you to keep trying what you've been doing. But its not working. Work on YOU, what you want for you & your children. Act as if she is not in your home & that you are not bothered by it. I was unable to do this cause I thought my H would feel rejected, but now I think it is the only thing that catches the other spouses attention. It is a hard thing to do, but worth a try. Dont tell her you are doing this either. Maybe for alternate reading, browse that "divorce busting" book by M. Weiner-Davis. Anything is worth trying once!! Do things on your own, do things with your kids & dont worry if your wife goes or not, go without her & enjoy yourselves!! She might wonder what she's missing!! Being alone is very hard, but dont allow a 3rd person to butt in. Some woman you know might decide she's "only trying to help" but that would be suicide! Especially don't make a female confidant at work!! Trust me, some can be devious & manipulative when they look like a angel!! <p>[This message has been edited by cantletgo (edited October 02, 2001).]