I am so confused! J (OD of 19 who chose 1.5 yrs ago to live with my now exH and his lover in our house-I was kicked ou with YD of 11 in the apartment) phoned yesterday afternoon and in 15 min told me she was coming to live with me forever,
I had to rearange the apartment (Realy don't know how-63sq met and only 2 rooms, but that's not important now),
she hated S (OW of 33, no kids, we both are 43)the most in the world, she wished S was dead, she couldn't live a minute more with them, but she didn't want to tell me what was happening exactly only that she was thinking of that for two months now (remember two months ago she came to me almost for the first time, and stayed almost all the time).
She said also she had some conditions (I must not mention M (exH) any more, I must not raise ton while talking,..). She also said that I had not to defend him ,he was awful, I had to hate him, she wanted her own room (let me change the appartment!!!???-where is the money???), that M mentioned a way how could be possible to devide living room (they obviously talked about this move), that he would never leave S, that he would never be back to me.
When I asked if S was pregnant she repeated that I had to ask M about that, that she did not want me to be hysteric, that that was not her business, that if she was no now she would be soon-I conclude from her words S IS pregnant.
It seems important that M didn't find necessary to talk with me about this plan. This makes completely new circumstances and needs new agreement-at least financially do not mention my psychic status what is far from stabile.
I love my daughter but for two years she lived by her own without the feeling of family life thanks to him.
When she was with me she used to behave like in a hotel. I can't accept that.
If You remember, if she chose to be with me I'd have stayed in the house or at least got larger apartment.
I am glad she wants to be with me but I am also confused.
Just last week I had a first consultation with a new attourney about anulation of that agreement signed in court about deviding property: is there any posssibility of that? I'll meet him next week again.
I didn't realy want to go on court cause I am sure that would mean his final decision to hate me forever and that he would be mad cause the only thing he was worried thru these 2 years was how not to put "a finger" on his company, even kids were less important-he said that openly.
But if S IS pregnant i have to fight for money cause her kid will steel his property from my kids. Law!!
And besides all that I love him still and want him back of course only if this baby story is not truth-if it is than we will fight till death.
I don't know what to do?
I love him, I love J but I have no strength to go with such new situation especially when I don't know the whole truth.
She came yesterday evening but immediately went out with his BF, came arround 1 am , this morning didn't want to talk (in the car when we went to Faculty, mine and hers), said she would not be at home in the afternoon. She again is cold and distant "if you don't want me I'll go back to them". Only in the phone call she showed emotions, cried and was sad.<p>what now?<p>Any advice's welcome.<p>D<p>female BS, 43yrs
together from 05/79
married 04/82
D-day 11/99
separated 7/00
moved in OW 9/00
divorced 7/01<p>OD '82
YD '90<p>Still love him and had a hope for future.
This was his first and only affair. He is very rich.
OW never married, 33,former his secretary, few abortions, several lovers, well known "free" life style<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: betrayed and desperate ]</p>

I don't think that you should allow your daughter to set demands on you. If you do allow her to live with you it should be under your conditions, not hers. She is basically an adult but is acting much like a child. She doesn't seem to be considering your feelings at all. That is your first step here. To show her that you are the parent and she cannot tell you what to do.<p>About OW being pregnant there is nothing that you can do about it. If you want to know and are on speaking terms with XH ask him about it. If not just try to relax. If you find out OW is pregnant, there is still nothing you can do about it, only work on the way that you will react to that situation. I do think you should legally protect your children and yourself. Let the lawyers help you with that. <p>If you do decide to let your daughter stay - maybe you can get the lawyer/XH to find a way for him to contribute more money and that way you can get a bigger place, if thats what you want. Even if your daughter only moves in with you in couple of months.<p>But most of all look after yourself!<p>Pantha

Thanks for so quick reply Pantha!
It seems that MBs never sleep, as well as, dr Harley, he also replied to me.<p>[QB]She is basically an adult but is acting much like a child. She doesn't seem to be considering your feelings at all.
That's exactly what she say for me. You know, we were never too close, probably we're much alike. She knows how I was wounded when she chose to live with them.
Only for last two months when she finally started to be more with me (after more then a year of separation) we started to make a kind of relationship. It's so tiny now.
I am afraid if I made my demands she 'll escape and now forever.<p>To show her that you are the parent and she cannot tell you what to do.
She is now for 1.5 yrs to live on her own, her dad was so much having fun and going out and on trips , that she was raising herself in those crytical yrs alone.
And she sees me so weak and can't treat me as a parent (I comitted suicide last year, and still am hoping he will be back one day-she considers that weakness).<p>I'll talk to the lawyers of course but as you can see I am so afraid of any move, not to ruin a chance for reconciliation. In a profile of my OW you can see that's the biggest difference among us: she has a BIG self-confidence and I have not one.
We'll see what will happen these days.<p>Thanks for the help.
D<p>BTW How are you now few days after divorce?

You say that your daughter sees you as weak. Well then by being the firm but fair parent you will be showing her your strength. You are strong and will find that strength in yourself. You have raised your daughters - that shows strength! (I can't imagine being a mother yet and I am 28) It takes courage and wisdom to raise children. So know that you are in deed strong. You have moved into a place of your own and you know what? You are coping - without your husband. Yes, you might have been feeling desperate enough to try to commit suicide, but you didn't succeed and there is a reason - you are strong and will make it through this. Maybe your daughter is scared to get close to you because she thinks you may try to committ suicide again. So in a way she is trying to protect herself. Tell her that you will not try take your own life again. Tell her that you can cope without your XH, but that you will maintain hope in your heart that you will be reunited with her dad someday. <p>If your daughter is depending on you for a roof over her head, she needs to respect you as the parent. She maybe a young adult but while she is depending on you she cannot lay down any conditions and expect you to abide by them. <p>You know that you can work on your self confidence. Don't compare yourself to OW! Remember that your H fell in love with you once and there must have been good reason. Try thinking back, did you have confidence then? Try joining a class - even if its just a hobby class or anything where you will interact with people and you will start meeting new people and gaining confidence again. I think you need to start liking yourself again. You are good person remember that!<p>I am doing ok, after the divorce, thank you for asking. Its been difficult and I have now cut XH totally out of my life. It is sad but a necessary step for me to move on.<p>Pantha<p>PS I am glad that Dr Harley replied to you too!

B & D,<p>Mama Bear, where are you when your daughter needs you most?<p>The parents home is forever open to his/her children. Doesn't matter if the child is 18 or 55. Natural affection creates that asylum.
But, the child must always abide by the parent's rules while in that home. Children don't make rules in Mom's house, the Mama Bear makes the rules, and Mama Bear must enforce the rules. That doesn't mean Mom can't be considerate and loving, it just mean's Mom is in charge, period. It sure sounds like you are getting your buttons pushed.<p>When each of my children decided they wanted to leave Mom's house and come live with me, I made it very clear that they were coming to stay, we weren't going to play musical houses, and I wasn't going to compete for their affection.<p>Do you daughter a favor, lay down the law and stick to it. The behavior you describe in her is immature and self centered. Let her grow up a little. She will make some mistakes and she will survive them.<p>Just to share experience, when my oldest son was about her age, he refused to continue his education or to get a job. He wanted to party with a different girl every night and sponge off me. Soooo, I told him to find himself a place to live, he couldn't live here anymore. It took awhile for him to get the message, but when he found out just how difficult it is, he went back and finished his education. Today he makes more money than I do, has his own house, nice wife and two beautiful children.<p>As soon as he realized some success, he took me out to dinner to thank me for throwing him out. He said that when he found out he had to depend upon himself, that is when he became his most productive.<p>As long as the child wants to live off parents, the decision of where she lives should include the parents. It is not her choice to make alone, and she doesn't get to set any rules or conditions. May I suggest that you have a long talk with your ex and find out what is really going on before you make any decision? <p>"if you don't want me I'll go back to them".<p>Suggested Response: OK<p>If that remark is nothing else it is cruel. You have no duty whatever to prove to this child that you want her back in your home. Your duty is to get her ready to stand on her own two feet.<p>Life is a little quirky at this stage. She is over eighteen, she is emancipated, you no longer have any lawful authority over her. But you only have responsibility for her if she cannot take care of herself. Please note the word is "cannot" rather than "will not". Youngsters her age have a way of confusing what they can do with what they will do.

She's 19- is she in school? Working? If her return means you need a bigger apartment, then you and your ex should re-negotiate child support, or she should share rent if she's working.<p>She is clearly angry at the world right now, so I wouldn't issue ultimatums, but I think you have a right to set rules of behavior in your home, and to know why she's made this change so abruptly. I would never accept "I don't ever want to talk about it;" maybe suggest a cooling-down period of a few days, and a scheduled time to talk lovingly about what's going on with her? It should be fairly easy to say to her "it worries me to see you so angry and pained, I need to know what's causing it so I can help you."

Dear friends,
thanks for the suggestions, I'm sorry but for the time difference I couldn't answer you till now (I have PC only at the office and live in Europe).
It's still surprising me how soon and how many people here care and want to help.<p>Pantha,
thank you of thinking about me like a strong person. No, I ma not strong. You know I am the only child of old and not so rich parents who was always used to be the best in school to learn and not to have fun. This was my choice. I was growing up thinking I'll never marry cause I am not pretty. So when the first boy showed interes and besides was so nice (a lot of girls in love with him) and smart I was delighted. I fall in love from the first moment I met him. Now I am not sure was it love on his side!
We were 3 yrs dating and then very planned made a baby (In agreement I stopped using pills). Now he says I "caught" him on baby. We were then students.
We lived 3 of us in one room with his grandfather (very negative person of 85) and I suddenly had to take care of him and our baby.
Then after 9 yrs the money started to come-he built a company , very successful for our area.
And probably then it started.
I was on medication due to our (I thought) wish to have another baby (He said on court that even than our marriage was awful-why the medicine torture then for both of us???)
And step by step I was making academic career and he his company,
I was not strong-HE was always the one who earned money, made decisions, a lot of work(in company and about building the house...) and I- I was always few steps behind. But I do not complain, that suited me I think. I was not responsible for anything.
OD was the first who was aware of his A (and he admitted it to her) I was these days and weeks involved in getting acad degree assProf. She adored him always and immediately chose to stay with him in spite of the fact she knew OW would be in ,the moment I would be out of the house.
Yd was never asked what she thought. But she is young and needs too much care to be with them, it's a lot of easier to let her stay with me. They can have more fun without her.<p>Yes, I cope with a life but I am constantly at the edge of a brakedown (in every sense: money, emotions,job).
I still ask him for help and I have to admitt he almost always helps.
But I still live in hope he'll be back (and dr Harley "warms" this idea up).
OD still do not talk about last events-we all pretend now everything is normal.
H also still does not call.
I for sure can not allow OD to make demands (in spite of the fact that Harley says those are very useful demands for me)
Again thanks<p>Bumperii
It was very useful to see your experiences with your grown kids.
I am for sure always open for my daughter, I love her so, and it was so painful when she consciously chose to stay with him, it seemed than "unnatural" female child chose to live with her father and OW. Everyone blamed me for not being a good mother. But from the moment she was borne she more liked him and was deely connected with him.
Partly her choice was maybe about money (he is sooooooo rich) and the house (she is used to have her own room, live in the house not in the apartment)...
But it seems "the paradise" is not as much paradize it slightly becomes hell.
YD tells me about the souting OW to H and vice versa ("you at least were not quarreling and shoutng ")
I'll give OD time to rethink about everything , to calm down and then we have to talk about the new situation.
I have to talk with ex but I am afraid, I still when I am with him often loose control and th econversation goes into wrong direction (will you come back....). I will wait with him few days also.
And I have to see if OD is serious or she would change her mind after some time.<p>Thanks for help<p>dabigtrain<p>She is at the colledge (started to study economy-1st year of 4) so she is money dependent.
Obviously I will have to make him understand that I need higher child support but knowing him I am not sure how it would go and official way is so long and slow. You can understand how much expenses are raisedf when you have an young adult with you, who wants to be nice, go out, buy books for colledge.....drive a car...
So I'llgive her and him some time, few days to "collect the puzzles" and decide what they both want and then see if I can be the part in that picture (not wish, but can).
thank you<p>
If you have some other idea let me know.<p>One more thing: I am so concerned about the posibility of OW's pregnancy. I am afraid that I can loose my mind if that's truth cause that means my hope is gone and I can't imagine the life without him forever.
I accept only if that is temporary.<p>D

Before going home I was trying to bump this up!
Hope tomorrow will find more opinions.
Thanks friends

Betrayed and confused,
I am living a similar story with my kids...and feel so badly for YOU.<p>Your d has made choices in the past (to live with father) which impactedon your decision makoing..where to live,financials etc. Now she isnot happy living with her dad so wants to live with you.
Having had my teens play musical houses...it is untenable and difficult for all.
My suggestion
1) is to absolutely not allow your daughter to tell you how it must be if she moves in with you. You will only set yourself up for another day when she is angry with you for whatever reason and she will leave.
2)Pleasethink about the difficulties this places on your household and YD whose life is stable. OD decided not tolive in the same home as YD and to help you in this respect. What is her relationship like here? Will her moving in be negative or positive for YD?Is she doing things which you will not allow in your home etc?
3)Whether OW is having a baby or not is painful for you, but should not be a factor in whether d now lives with you. If this is reason she is so upset with her dad, she will get over it and then where will you be when she leaves for "greener" pastures again? Where will your YD be and what type of precedent does this set for her in the future?<p>In my opinion you cannot take her into your home without sorting through all this....FOR YOUR SAKE as much as hers.<p>IF you do take her in then you need to have an agreement with her father that when she starts playing you both up again, his door will not be open......what a mess. I feel so bad for youand your children.<p>It sounds like she is very angry at all of you. Is she in counselling?
She also has to be feeling very guilty about so many of her choices.....<p>
You are strong and now is the yime to be stronger....for YD most of all

Willbok99,
thanks for your opinion.
I of course allowed my OD to live with me-it's MY daughter,. For now we are not making any hard decisions like rearanging the apartment or moving all her stuff (in fact part of my things is stil there). Of caurse life goes for now with my terms-no black-mails.
her sister is happy cause she is here-of course there are a little fights, I think usual for girls so age different and with one starting puberty and not being together so long and now for the first time sleeping together in one room.
I am aware that she can again change her mind and go there, I simply hope that she's grown up during this perion and must disagree with you: Idon't want her father's door to be closed for her. He will always be her father.
It's a sad fact that OW kicked first me and YD then her from OUR house which we built together to live there and OW will always be the guest there. I am convinced ex will come to his senses very soon now when he is left even of her adored daughter ( and almoyt all his family already and partly of friends and business partners).
so I stil believe there will be a happy end thru some time.Of course I'll wait some time and then remember him of money question, unfortunately it's not all about emotions.<p>Hope your story is nicer, I am not familiar with it, I do not see you much on Board.Maybe you want to tell me more?
D

I am the daughter of a WS (haha, married a man just like daddy!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Anyway, I knew my dad was having an A a full year b4 my mother did, and I could not tell her. I was hurt and betrayed and I hated my father for a long time. When it came to light for my mother, it was the day of my 21st birthday [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>So I was nearly the same age as your daughter B, and I kind of know that she has come home because she has been desperately hurt. She may tell you what happened eventually, but until she does, don't pressure her. She may be protecting you. She does not want to tell you because it will hurt. Also if OW IS pregnant, she would be angry about that, believe me, and I don't agree that she will get over it. She may NOT. Depends on her outlook on life. One of my big fears was a child from THEIR union...WE were his family, NOT her!<p>I had a very hard time protecting my mother from the truth and to this day she doesn't know I knew. I walked around with a lot of guilt...I never met OW, but my brothers did, and they LIKED her...so I was furious with them, too. And I was even angry at my Mum, in the end because she seemed to not get angry enough...didn't divorce him. But she never let him back into the home for two years after DDay, so I suppose she was angry!!!!<p>So there I was a little 21 year old, thinking I knew it all, and that my whole world had gone mad....this is kind of in the place where your D is now. She is an adult, very nearly, yet she has no control of her life. This is a hard lesson to learn.<p>She will likely be a handful for you, but she is hurting, why will come out soon enough. Just please take the advice from someone who has been there....love her all you can, all she will allow, because that is why she came to you...to feel safe in your presence.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

Dear Nina,
I am so glad you shared you experience with me. I wondered if this thread would make you read it.<p>"haha, married a man just like daddy" - that's a thought what makes me very very worried. Statistics show that this repeats with kids from divorced marriages.
My YD now keeps telling that she would never marry anyone, if she would have to (because of the baby) she would never, never try to be nice to her H and to do such things about him and the house keeping and home building like I did.
Those words frighten me.
OD never hated her father, she hated me (suicide and like your mother the fact I want him back still and love him so much and wasn't me the one who kicked HIM out of the house-just opposite he kicked ME)<p>
" she has come home because she has been desperately hurt" - I am aware of that
On Fri she told me some details:
told me part of the story what made her mad.
She found one of OW's e-mails to a female friend where OW is complaining about OD (always wathes MTV, always serious and in a bad mood-bad girl in fact) . so she invited OW to talk, then she for the first time told her that she hated her most in the world, she wanted her to die, that her art is bull**** (OW pretends to paint something) she is no woman cause she did nothing only her legs up, that she was a guest in HER house always only a guest, not hers but fathers, that OW ruined her life, how could she always go out never at home (while ex is on work)....OW in fact didn't talk much, only that she escaped not to be with and see my OD. She was calm, she made her aim and OD was crying.
OD also said she did not brake connection with father and that he is sad cause he left him. she also said that ex is not happy, he is now slowly sick of everything but that he is so much in love with OW so he wouldn't leave her ever.
That he is aware that everyone is accusing him but his parents invited him cause he was their son and they accept that OW is always with him, cause of him. that his sister and others blame him for what he did.
That one can't talk with OW cause she is so primitive "village girl" so rough in fact she is like a stone age girl (I can't translate better), uneducated, not nice looking , not knowing to behave..---
Knowing all that I can't understand : how can then he live so long with OW and didn't start to think about kicking HER out , maybe not cause of me but cause of him. Even to live alone.
No, he is so dam sure that is the best way of life.
But neither OD nor YD (who spent weekend with ex and OW-last 8 weekemnds in line) do not want to admitt OW's pregnancy, maybe you're right, maybe to protect me. But this city is too small and if it is truth I'll know, this is what you can't hide forever.<p>"But she never let him back into the home for two years after DDay" Did I understand well: your father came back at the end, and they are still married, happily???????<p>
"love her all you can, all she will allow, because that is why she came to you...to feel safe in your presence"
That's exactly what I am trying to do but it is hard cause I ma not near the stability she needs now.
I am still very vulnerable living in a world of hope that we CAN and WOULD be together again-exactly thought what she thinks it's impossible.<p>Thank you Jackie.<p>BTW did you move into a new place, are you still in plan B (how can you be without any contact: your H surely wants to know what is happening with your kids?)<p>Love
D

Hi B,<p>Yes still happily in Plan B. It is easy for me cos i am in Australia and he is doing contract work in South Africa. So he doesn't come see the kids...only calls once a week or less and writes the occasional email.<p>I couldn't listen to his dead voice on the phone without being upset, and when I found out he was still with OW, I went into full Plan B...emailed him the Plan B letter,and said don't call me, only email about kids and business.<p>I have a house, and I supposed to move this weekend, but I am having trouble getting my furniture out of storage.<p>And yes my mum and dad are back together and have been since then. They are happier than b4 A's, but she says she has never loved him the same.

Dear Nina,
I may be boring but because I am so in love with my ex I'd be glad to know some details about your parents: was the OW much younger than mum, how long did they live seaprately, did he ever lived with OW....what was the reason made him come back.
I know it's painful but you understand I ampanicaly searching for successful stories with similar time limit as mine.
I stll can't believe we are divorced and that that means we'd be never be together again (as almost everyone say).
When I definetly loose my hope I'll stop and cut the story., no matter what consequences,.
Like he said: I will not sacrifise cause of kids, I have live my own life, I am not interested in past, I have only future in front....with the exception that then there will be no future for me.
Thanks

Hi B,<p>Well I don't know how similar my parents' story will be to yours, and I don't really know all the details, but here is what I do know.<p>My dad had cheated quite a few times in the past, totally unknown to us kids...we only saw that they did not get along. When I was 12 they separated for seven months, because my mother was right in the middle of a nervous breakdown, and had a fleeing instinct. She left us with our dad and got a small flat herself.<p>It took him going to jail for a few weeks (for a repeated driving offence) for her to take us back into her life. She has told me since she wasn't ready for that, but she had to take us because we would have been put into foster care. <p>When Dad got out of jail, he lived apart from us for a little while, and eventually they got back together. Now the catalyst for this separation, to my knowledge had more to do with unpaid bills, drinking and things like that, rather than an A, but it COULD have happened, and mum didn't tell us.<p>Well, after a time mum wanted to leave again, this time back to our home country, and so they told us kids that dad would follow, but she had no intention of coming back here, or allowing him there. 2 months later we were back...it was too hard to go back to her home country after a ten year break.<p>So then, I guess dad made some huge changes in himself, and things went well for about another 8 years, but then he got involved with OW. She was about the same age as him, I said I hadn't met her, but I now recall I did ONCE, and I was very rude to her...funny how I blocked that out. <p>So when mum found out she kicked dad out. He lived in a dumpy room for a while, and I don't know if he ever lived with OW, but I DO know he bought her furniture and spent a lot of money on her....and did not contact my mother in a long time. FFFFFFFOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGGG!<p>It turned out in his particular case that the OW was a professional con woman with a long record, a fact he found out when the police managed to trace her right after she disappeared. I don't know if they caught her, but the police told my mother that she was wanted in a couple of states.<p>So it is not really similar to your story I bet. I do not know what happened to get my parents back together...I was away from home by then, and it was 2 years before she allowed him back home.<p>Since then he has bent over backwards for her, and really tried to be a devoted H. I KNOW she doesn't feel the same way...she LB's all over the place, but he just puts up with it. I now actually feel sorry for my dad, yet there was a time when I hated him, and he knew it.<p>Anyway, that's it!

B&D, and Bumper, an Willbok99....I am so glad and sad that I ran into this thread and read it. I am living what I can only describe as my own personal nightmare right now. <p>My fiance has physical custody of his son. His exw has physcial custody of their D. The D is 17 and a handful. She has played yo-yo between parents that I have personally seen the past several months. When things get "tough" at mom's, she gets "kicked" out and calls dad, and he comes running to her rescue. Then after a few days, she returns back to moms because it is by far much more permissive than at dads. Yet, both parents have allowed both their kids to bascially "run the show". <p>It is only now that their father wants to set the groundrules and of course the kids are rebelling. They think he is "too strict". They shouldn't have a curfew of midnight. It should be later because all their friends stay out later. So what happens is the parents begin this "negotiating" with the teenagers! I have a younger child and quite frankly, my child has to live by my rules, not ones which he wants. I am struggling more and more on wanting to break off the engagement and relationship. I'm so thankful we do not live in that environment with them. Isn't it sad that I am saying that and we are engaged? Should be a warning flag, huh?<p>I'm afraid. I know that if we are married I cannot and will not tolerate some teenager telling me what they want to do and then just doing it..Is there any way a parent who is now divored can establish groundrules for the kids to live by while in that person's custody, when everyone knows this will be viewed as "dad's new rules"????<p>Not sure what, if anything, I can do....

Please protect yourself. Don't worry about getting him back, just talk to the lawyer and protect yourself.

Party of Five,
thank you for sharing your expiriance. I am not familiar with your story (wha "Five") but you say your kid is living by your rules. That may be possible when is young but with teeneagers I think it's more complicated.My OD choose by herself to live with her father and OW, so almost 2 yrs we were separated, now it's hard to establish the rules. She is used to live without any rules to see OW doing nothing, realy nothing and getting everything, so I hardly can correct that. She unfortunately saw that I did everything to make our family happy and get nothing - so what will she choose in her life? And, you know, I think she is right, let her get what she can from both sides. I'll take my role as much as I can with that little strength left. After that I'll finish with myself and let them all enjoy.
Ubfortunately OW won, kicked me, kids and does not think your way - to leave him cause of obligations, cause obligations are all mine.<p>Gittruth?
Unfortunately lawyer said that what I signed when wwe were separated is final.
So I'll live as long as I can afford, then I know what will do

WOW, Nina, what a life!<p>yes, i would agree that alot of our current decisions are based upon repeating the past, the past that we feel comfortable with, and what we were brought up with as normal.<p>Yes, one would feel sorry for a person that finally grewup and came to his sense, and for your mum who can never forgive. Both need some counseling.<p>Bumperii,<p>your advice and guidance sounds like a perfect, old fashioned parent, of which i had, and my X did not. I am relatively tough like you, and i assume that this was an issue with the X, as i was just as tough on her with her childish and manipulative behavior. Of course she will now grow up somewhat, and my conversation concerning her behavior was part of that growing up for her. My X will get it, just too late to doa good job parenting.<p>in fact i am going to save your post for future reference. <p>Desperate and Betrayed, <p>listen to the tough line folks here, and think about how you can apply it lovingly.<p>good luck everyone

WIFTT,
thank you. That's exactly what I am doing, in fact trying to do as good as possible.
But I have very little strength left for all those changes happening now in such a hurry.
Hope taht the time would help.
D