I have had the most incredible past four days of my 37 years. Thank God I am leaving in 30 minutes for my appointment with my psychiatrist. Ok, where to start. Well, for anyone reading this that is interested in how we got here - here is a link to my first post.<p>My first post<p>Hope that worked - that is the first time I have tried to link something. Anyway, we divorced in Jan. 2002 after 15 years and three great children (12, 9 and 5). I am 37, he is 41 - no affairs, just a whole lot of trust issues, communication problems, legal problems and growing apart and growing resentment over a number of years. <p>Since the divorce I have posted a few times about the possibility of a reconcilliation - we continued to see each other and we have been intimate a number of times over the past several months. He began 'dating' about a month after the divorce and would see this one particular woman (I call her the snail) once or twice a week. She is someone he has known casually a long time, but I couldn't really tell how serious it may or may not be getting. I have not been interested in dating - however due to the divorce diet and the other stress I am dealing with, I have lost about 25 pounds and look pretty darn good if I do say so myself. I moved into an apartment where a bunch of law/med students live and got hit on a lot! I always just said, "bless your heart, your momma did a good job". Anyway, I didn't want to go out. Didn't have the energy for it and kept hoping that somehow all this stuff would work out to enable our family to reunite. Welcoming a new addition to my nightmare didn't ever seem like the right thing to do.
Well, last Friday - here is how things heated up: <p>So many huge things have occurred over the past few days it is hard to separate the &#8216;events&#8217; from the &#8216;emotions&#8217;. But, I will try. Mainly because getting this on record is really helpful for my understanding and for my healing. Last Sunday (May 5) was Oldest son's confirmation and we spent most of the day together as a family. XH was very friendly and loving and kept telling how good I look (broken record and yet I continue to want to hear it??..) Then as the week progressed he became more distant and as is the pattern with which I am now familiar he was moving away from me and I knew making plans and seeing snail. He acted weird all week. Then on Friday I knew something was up and sure enough, he was going to (weekend getaway place) with her. I couldn't believe it. In the first place, going out of town is a serious shove into semi-serious and to take her there. To our place. To our family place that has been so special for so many years. I was, needless to say, having a very difficult time. After dropping Oldest son at baseball, I drove straight over to P and B&#8217;s (our best couple friends) and fell apart. Literally, almost couldn&#8217;t stand. They are so awesome. They just let me cry and ***** and they listened and they held me. I know this is progress to open up like this and allow somebody (anybody) to see how broken and beaten I am. I can&#8217;t handle it all. No [censored]? Then we talked and P, who never gives advice, said it is time for you to take care of you. It is time for you to listen to XH with your eyes and not your ears. He loves XH, of course - they have been friends since birth. And he thinks he is genuinely confused (again &#8211; no [censored]?). But, the point is I can&#8217;t solve his confusion for him. I can&#8217;t fix this for him. Hello?? Where have I heard this before? Could this be another broken record? How long does it take me to HEAR and then ABSORB the message? <p> Well, I began to turn a corner. Really take those steps around the actual corner. We ate dinner, I took the kids home and watched Erin Brockovitch (good, strong, independent woman movie!) and I actually slept. Not for long, but I did. I didn&#8217;t lay there and toss and agonize and wonder and conjure up images &#8211; could this be growth?!
On Saturday morning, I got up determined to take my future into my hands and out of his. I e-mailed DM (an acquaintance who is divorced that we have known for years) and gave him my number. I wanted to call, but that was way too scary and forward. I figured he would get the e-mail in the next few days and maybe or maybe not call me back. It seemed fairly low risk. He called in 15 minutes. He said he had wanted to call me for weeks and had inquired from mutual friends and was basically told to &#8220;stay the he!! away&#8221;. He is such the consummate bachelor and I think my friends were trying to protect my fragile state. Well, big girl I am. He asked me out for Saturday night and for Sunday afternoon (Crawfish Boil and Tennis Tournament). I said yes to both. The weight, you know the 55 pound one that has been sitting in the middle of my chest for 5 months, was lifted. And not because it was DM. I mean he is cute and fun and nice and I do know him (much better than a first date with a complete stranger). But, because somebody out there finds me attractive and desirable is not scared by my piles of **** &#8211; at least not too scared to have a first date. What a relief. What a statement about the future possibilities of life after XH. It was large. <p> Saturday afternoon at the ballpark XH showed up and looked haggard &#8211; guess an all night f*** fest with probably tons of red wine will do that to you. I was easy going, no questions about anything, friendly, not cold, but not gushy. Right mix. He was less distant than he had been all week. More textbook pursue, run, pursue, run. I left and went home to get ready and go over to D's. I looked good &#8211; would you think any different? We hung out there a while and some other people came over and I had a really nice time. After the crawfish thing we came back there and talked on the porch a while. He asked me if he could kiss me and I said yes. It was actually quite nice. Strange (guess that is why they call it that), but very nice. <p> On Sunday morning XH and I talked and he asked what I was doing later and I told him about the tennis tournament. He seemed fine till he asked who I was going to that with and I told him &#8220;You said you didn&#8217;t want to know&#8221;. Well, low and behold he had changed his mind and he did indeed want to know. When I said, &#8220;DM&#8221;, you could have heard a pin drop a mile away and then he said, &#8220;That&#8217;s interesting&#8221;. He began his descent into what has been my world since January 9. And especially since February 17 &#8211; which is when they had their first date of which I am aware. He was having difficult time. We met at the park to eat subway sandwiches with the boys and after a few minutes he said he had to go. He said he couldn&#8217;t see me. He couldn&#8217;t stand this and he would miss me. Yes, familiar territory for me. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Plus, we are talking apples and oranges. Two dates versus a several-month-progressively-intensifying relationship. <p> He called me when I got home and was actually on the phone with me when D got there. It was surreal. After the tennis tournament, which was also fun, we came back to my house for a few minutes and then he had to go pick up hsi daughter and I was headed over to see the kids for Mother&#8217;s Day festivities. XH was in the family room when I got there, but escaped upstairs where I found him supine, face down on the bed. I hate seeing him like this. Because I know what it feels like (and more) and wouldn&#8217;t wish it on the Taliban. It really sucks. So we began a 4-hour discussion. Lots was said. Lots more was felt. He wants to start the process of exploring reconciliation. He wants his family back. Well, I have wanted to hear that for months, but I cannot let myself respond to what may just be a knee-jerk emotional response. Take this battered heart and throw it out there in the middle of I-65 one more time? That seems really risky. And, no, it isn&#8217;t D. He is irrelevant to the process. The only relevance is the strength I feel from actually stepping out there successfully. If this was all it took, I should have gone out with D (or Joe Schmo) 3 months ago. Saved myself a lot of grief. He asked me to stay and I said I would reluctantly. Then he said, no that isn&#8217;t fair &#8211; you go. Then he got really down and started talking about not being able to take it and he should just end it all (not in a threatening or manipulative way &#8211; real pain, which I understand) and I told him that I was first his friend and I would stay. I did and it was really good. Really ok and comfortable &#8211; even knowing he had been in bed with snail 2 days prior. Don&#8217;t know how I got through that. XH says I am more mature than he is. He may well be right.<p> This a.m. he went over to her house for coffee and told her he was going to embark on putting his marriage back together and couldn&#8217;t see her anymore. She was upset and feels duped (imagine?) and she has already called him back once. He will definitely continue to hear from her. I don&#8217;t know where I am. I don&#8217;t know what to trust. Neither does he. Thank God I am seeing my counselor tomorrow. How to move from here? Careful what you wish for.<p>Tuesday, May 14, 2002
9:00 a.m. The Office
I just re-read yesterday and realize I wrote much more about what happened than about how I feel about it all. I feel so many things it is hard to separate it all. I feel relief that I may have a future with Xh. I feel scared that I am going to get hurt again. I feel scared that he can&#8217;t really love me the way I need him to &#8211; respect me and who I am and forgive me (REALLY forgive me) for the things I have done. I feel scared that I will resent him for not loving me like I needed him to for years. Maybe I don&#8217;t love him enough to really give myself to him. Maybe I am not capable of the kind of love he wants and needs. I think I am, but I haven&#8217;t demonstrated it with him &#8211; or ever, really.
I am scared I may resort to old patterns of not being honest with him about how I feel and holding things in to keep the peace. I am scared I can&#8217;t be me with him. He says that is what he wants. But, can I trust that? Can he trust me? Do we really want the same things? What are they?<p> He said last night he doesn&#8217;t think I am ready to try at reconciling. He thinks I have more &#8220;independent stuff&#8221; to get out of my system &#8211; like going out with D again. I told him I am just scared. But, if this is what I have wanted since last August &#8211; why am I scared now? Do I really want him back or did I just want him to want me? I can&#8217;t believe that could be the case. I want us to parent our children together and grow old together and love each other in a real and mature and important way. At least, that is what I think I want. But, I am not sure. He is right. I am not sure. I am not certain that I can ever love him completely because I am not certain I can ever trust fully in his love for me. I want to be loved from the inside out. I know to get that, you have to give that. And I know I have not given that. But, can we give each other that kind of love? Can we? How to know?

OMG! Wiffle!<p>I'm sitting over my keyboard eating a chicken Caesar salad and my jaw just dropped open .... plus I dropped the salad on my keyboard! lol<p>I CANNOT believe what Jealousy will do. It's SOOOOO powerful ... I just don't get that, do you???<p>
Jeeeeeez!<p>Jo

No, Jo - I absolutely do not get it. But, it is textbook Harley and Divorce Busting stuff. Move on and they want back. I could never have predicted that his reaction to me having one date (well, two) would be so sudden and so intense. <p>He has said that it isn't just the emotional reaction, but it is his own amazement at his reaction that tells him how much he really loves me. He is scared to love me, but more scared to lose me forever. Guess he didn't think he had to worry about that until he saw a glimpse of the boat sailing without him in it. <p>I just don't know what to think. If it is just an emotional, jealous reaction - then that is just like the fire of an affair - it won't last. It can't sustain a relationship. But, if it pointed up real feelings that he has been trying to suppress, then that will be evident over time.
Now, I have patience. What I have prayed for for months. I can allow this to play out and see what happens and where we go. I can because I know (and I knew by going on the date BEFORE I had his reaction) that I am going to not only survive, but THRIVE.<p>What is so funny to me is that I did not go on the date as part of my "strategy" and yet it worked like I had practiced it for years. Amazing. <p>Any other thoughts?<p>Did you clean the salad out of the keyboard??

Welp, what I'm gonna say is non-MB .... it's more a "Carol-ism" .....<p>Three words:<p>MAKE HIM BEG<p>(sorry) lol
Jo<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

That is funny - I printed out the Carol story a few weeks ago and INHALED it. I read it over and over. This is like the Carol story on steroids!
I mean he had just come back from a weekend getaway with his OW (not technically, since we are divorced), but I had two casual outings over a 24 hour period and he lost it!<p>Yeah, I think make him beg is good. He is the one who wanted this. I have an e-mail from him in Dec. 2001 that says "I simply do not love you anymore and I cannot go on like this". I asked him about that yesterday and he said, "It's not healthy for you to read that over and over, you should just delete it". Fog?

It's gotta be a testosterone thingie ... HORMONES.<p>His caveman kicked in ... tribal, you know MY WOMAN! lol<p>Jo

Wiffle,<p>How wonderful for you..although I don't know that it's jealousy that he feels or the realization that he may really lose you for good..if he continues to ride the fence..and play both ends against the middle here..a thought that has probably never occured to him..that YOU may actually find someone else because of the things
that have happened in your past..(didn't think anyone else would want anything to do w/ you)<p>But woah..here is this man who knows EVERYTHING
that has happened everything she has done..and HE DOESN'T CARE??? hmmmm..maybe I am being to judgemental, maybe I am being to harsh?? Maybe I won't look stupid for staying and wanting to make
it work?? maybe others won't think I am stupid if I stay?? (an others image problem, how will others view me if I stay and work things out??)<p>Your feelings of not trusting him to love you and your not being able to love him are normal..really
they are..the stakes are high..it's like that gamble you took before at work..remember the one that got you here?? the stakes here are just as
high if not higher..this is your heart!!! Your emotions!!! Can you risk allowing someone else to take care of those things?? Heck, you haven't been able to trust yourself to do that before now..How
can you possibly trust someone else to do that??
(I really do understand- same things I've asked myself)<p>So ask yourself..is the risk worth it?? Is it worth letting yourself open up completely to another person? Are you worth it?? Yes, You are..<p>Share your feelings with him..your fears about trusting him, your fears about not knowing if you can really let him love you, and your not even sure where to begin, you don't know how you should feel about these things..and how facing those feelings and fears are scary to you..and allow him to share his fears and feelings with you..you may
even ask him to go w/ you to talk to your counselor so you can share them in a safe place..<p>My prayers are with you..I say...Take the risk..
you can take baby steps..nothing says you have to throw it all out there at one time, and see where it takes you..

I just posted on GQII seeking out Carol for you. Linked this thread there. Sure hope she's around to help out.<p>ThornedRose is right, it is wonderful. Don't REALLY make him beg .. I was teasing. Well, sorta.<p>Jo<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Thorned Rose,
I cannot believe your post. It seems like you are sitting across the table from me having coffee and have known me for years. The power of this community to unite people through their stories just blows me away.
Every single statement you made is 'nail on the head' correct. Have we met?<p>The thing about D 'knowing' me and knowing our story and being in the same circle and still finding me attractive and 'not scary' is so dead on and I hadn't even thought of that. I am sure that has crossed xh's mind. Same reaction may not have been nearly to this intensity had it been someone brand new that he doesn't know.<p>And the question of "am I worth the risk?" - Oh, my goodness, yes, that is what is at the bottom of all this. Thank you so much for zeroing in on that. In my heart of hearts I know I am. That is what 21 months of therapy will get you. I just have to have to courage to try.<p>I agree, baby steps.<p>Thanks a million.

Wiffle honey .. I'm going to stay off your thread for a bit cuz I'm in a mood today. I don't want to encourage you to do anything naughty .. yanno?<p>You really should be thoughtful and introspective with your ex-H's change of heart. <p>I'll be reading and post to you later, post-mood, k?<p>Love,
Jo

Wiffle:<p>I cannot believe your post. It seems like you are sitting across the table from me having coffee and have known me for years. <p>TR-Wish I were I'd give you a hug..sounds like you
could use one..<p>Every single statement you made is 'nail on the head' correct. Have we met?<p>TR-Not to my knowledge..<p>Same reaction may not have been nearly to this intensity had it been someone brand new that he doesn't know.<p>TR- exactly..he may not have had this reaction with someone new..someone who knows nothing of your past..and would wonder.."if she told him or if he knew the truth would HE STILL want to be with her??"<p>And the question of "am I worth the risk?" - Oh, my goodness, yes, that is what is at the bottom of all this. Thank you so much for zeroing in on that. In my heart of hearts I know I am. That is what 21 months of therapy will get you. I just have to have to courage to try.<p>TR- Like I said, I've asked myself those same questions..my ex used to condemn me all the time
for my past..to the point I condemned myself..and had ZERO self image..sad thing is..it wasn't just my ex that did that..I lived like that for years before in my own head..self contempt..carrying the blame for years of abuse..never felt I was worthy or being loved..or loving someone..never thought anyone would or could love me..for who I am on the inside..and not just the outside..and my ex fed on that..and continued to say things that encouraged those beliefs..I also go to counseling..and have spent the past 4 years working on my internal
beliefs about myself..and came to the conclusion that yes, I've made mistakes in my past..but I have learned from them..and I am not the same person I was then..because my beliefs have changed..I know that I am worthy of love..I also realize that my ex has his own internal issues,if
he didn't..he wouldn't have continued to try to make me feel bad about my past..so he could feel better about himself..<p>has your ex changed?? Has he accepted his responsibility in not showing you the love he feels?? And can you live with that if he hasn't??
Has he gotten past your mistakes? So they don't come back later in arguements?? Those are the things that will take the baby steps to find out..

Thanks again TR,
Today in counseling my therapist said almost the same thing you summed up with - "what has changed about him?" It is a good question and one we must deal with. Yes, he does recognize that he didn't show me his love in a way that I felt comfortable opening myself up to. He knows our divorce didn't happen overnight or in a vacuum.
But, the real issues comes with the question - "ok, he knows this, now what is he (or we) going to do about it?" Knowledge isn't anything without action.<p>I'll keep ya'll posted. Thanks for reading. This is really helpful.

Wiffle,<p>
Why don't you sit down and make a list of ways he's changed..and hasn't changed..are the changes something you like or don't like? are the areas he
hasn't changed things you can live with or things that caused problems before??<p>Look at him realistically..and watch his actions
and don't just listen to his words..words can be
decieving..do they match??

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Wiffle,<p>Very interesting turn of events. My guess is that it isn't jealousy so much as some things he has learned. He wasn't confused about telling this lady friend of his goodbye. Why? Well, being a guy my guess was that the weekend away answered many questions for him. The principal one was that this lady isn't YOU. She may be nice, she may be pleasant, but she isn't you.<p>Your going out with your friend reinforced that and further showed that things are indeed moving along for the both of you. My take on this is that the most telling thing about your relationship with your H was that shortly after the divorce he was still seeing you, there was still intimacy.<p>It has been said here already, he is confused. Your adventures with your job, probably showed him that he didn't know you very well. You mentioned that you have not shown him the love, you have withheld from him. Perhaps he has done the same to you. <p>You are very afraid or worried about restarting with him opening up to him. My question is why? You have gone through a trial and conviction, a very traumatic situation and one that opened up flaws in your thinking in ways you never imagined. You have been in therapy for a long time now and I am sure you have changed.<p>So why not take the chance and open up to him. Tell him what you have said here in this thread about your fears for him, of him, and for yourself. Talk to him Wiffle. He now knows he can lose you. Interestingly, I am not sure you realize yet that you can lose him. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I think you have known that this other lady was NOT a threat for him leaving.<p>So my recommendation is don't "Make him beg." Rather be forthright with him. You can and will survive no matter what happens. He knows that and so do you. He can and will survive no matter what happens. So don't play the games, but be honest and forthright with him. No threats, no games, just straight forward, telling him what you need from him. <p>You both have been deeply hurt by the events of the past, why not try to heal each other?<p>I look forward to seeing what you decide.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

After reading your thread, I am assuming that I am the Carol that Resilient paged on GQII, as looks like your H is doing stuff similiar to what mine did.<p>If you have read and printed out my thread you know some of the things I did.<p>What you have done is triggered your H's territorial instincts. As with my H, it was a sudden thing. One minute my H was perfectly happy with the limbo we were in and was keeping me at an arm's length (even tho we were sleeping together). The next, he was lapping up ANY attention I would give him (and I was very sparing with it at first after he woke up--on advice of my counsellor).<p>My H had problems that needed to be addressed before we got back together, in order for our marriage to have a chance to succeed. H, surprisingly, was up to the job! I was totally blown away with some of the things he did--and was capable of doing. You see, I had always been the rescuer and enabler in our relationship. But I had learned A LOT in the past 1 1/2 yrs of separation (I have a very well-stocked library now!).<p>My H has been back almost a yr now. Remember I made him wait almost 3 months before I let him come back. This was to cement his love for me deeply.<p>After my H woke up, and started to pursue heavily, I pulled WAY back. He kept chasing. I finally let him capture me! We are SO happy now.<p>Carol
PS. If I can answer any questions feel free to ask and I will check back. I do not visit here much anymore but will for awhile. Or maybe Resilient still has my email and can let me know if my input is wanted. I had posted it at one time.

Yes, Carol ... I still have your email I believe. Thank you for responding to Wiffle. I'm sure she'll acknowledge your post soon.<p>You're the best ever!<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Thanks JL, laura lee and Carol for your input. I really was just kidding with Jo about "making him beg", but I am going to take things very slowly.
I agree with you JL about being very upfront with him about all my fears and concerns - at this point what on earth do we have to lose?
The thing that is different from some other stories about the spouse "waking up" is that we are divorced. So, technically, he wasn't having an affair. Our D has been final for four months and after me having just 2 dates he decides he has made a terrible mistake and me simply must explore the possibility of reconciling!<p>We are making an appointment today for couples counseling. There is a long road ahead and I don't know the outcome, but I have to investigate it.
I'll keep ya'll posted. Thanks again for your replies, I really appreciate the feedback.

Morning Wiffle,<p>Have you considered counseling with Steve Harley?<p>My suggestion would be for you (alone) to have one session with Steve Harley updating him with the latest and telling him how you feel. Then have him counsel with your ex-H.<p>Steve H. can tell you best from speaking with your ex-H one time where your ex-H is emotionally regarding your relationship. If he is truly ready and how to proceed from there. I think you and ex-H are at a critical pivotal point and coaching with Steve H. would be well worth the $$, IMHO. <p>And I also want to apologize to you and the MB members here for my inappropriate comment of "Make Him Beg" .... I have recently experienced some not so pleasant turn of events in my situation that colored my response to you, and I'm truly sorry. Really out of character for me.<p>Best to you Wiffle. Please do keep us updated.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

How does DM with in with all of this? Has he been told about all these developments?<p>AGG