I need help on a relationship / marriage decision that is so hard that I, who consider myself usually as self assured and knowledgeable about what I want out of live, is really at my wit's end.

Basically, my wife, to whom I had been married for 10 years, told me last year that she wanted a divorce. Although I experienced that she treated me like dirt lately, I always thought that we did not have problems that could not be overcome. I was stunned and shattered. I immediately contacted a local marriage councillor but after listening to my wife's story, the marriage councillor basically advised her to take her kids, leave me and go and be happy. Afterwards a tale of continuous extramarital affairs and a lesbian experiment emerged. She thus was a totally different person from the person I thought I was married to. She admitted to an extramarital affair 5 years ago. She only admitted to the other, recent affair after she was totally unable to deny it any more. She also had sex with another woman 4 years ago to satisfy her fascination with the idea. She also paraded naked in front of a former neighbour who pestered her one evening after the kids had gone to bed while I was away on a business trip.

While shocked by my shattered marriage, I had to contemplate the horror of suddenly having to be alone, without my two kids, 5 and 9 years old, whom I love dearly. My wife, in the meantime, introduced me to a married fiend of hers whom she knew was secretly in love with me. In my desperation I grabbbed at the sudden friendship and the chance to be with a girlfriend again. Because she has already been through a divorce herself, she helped and supported me with the understanding of someone with 1st hand experience. I found that we were very compatible, much more than my wife and I had been. Her outlook on life, like child raising, finances, cooking, houshold chores, etc. is very similar to mine. She also really went out of her way to satisfy my needs. We bought a new house together and moved in. We could talk for hours, and still has 'n very beautifull relationship. She has a daughter of 4 years old with whom my kids immediately struck up a nice friendship. My kids are with us for half a week and every alternative weekend. In the meantime she got divorced from her husband in order to be with me.

Two months after we moved in together, my wife got second thoughts because her relationship with her lover broke up. She visited me at my office in tears and pleaded with me to come back. I was stunned again. I immediately broke the news to my girlfriend, and, understandably, she was very upset. My first reaction was to be loyal to the person who has done so much for me in the deepest crisis that has ever beset me. I told my wife that what she asked was impossible. I'm already in a new relationship and I've moved on. In the meantime, my daughter has sometimes wondered aloud why I don't move back in with mommy. My girlfriend is a tremendously caring person and she explained to my daughter that mommy did not love me anymore and left me for another peson. She did that to protect my image with my children so that they can understand that I was the victim in this situation. She also immediately noticed hygiene problems with my kids that my wife always neglected: dirty fingernails, poor manners towards adults, sloppyness with dirty clothes, eating manners. With the utmost kindness and understanding she rectified that and told me that their mother should long ago have taken better care of them - and that their father should have taken care of their poor attitude towards adults. I could not agree more. I once tried to talk to my wife about their behaviour towards adults but she told me not to be so rigid towards them and actually scolded me for trying to discipline them.

Nevertheless, despite a wonderfull relationship with a wonderfull woman whom I so admire, the thought that it would be the honorable and the right thing to do if I tried to save my marriage grew in me since the day my wife pleaded with me to return. What put me off from returning is her impulsive behaviour, the fact that she thinks it is nonsense to break off contact with her former lovers. "They are great people and by breaking of contact it will be an admittance that their are still feelings for them in her heart" she says. She says that now that she has a stable, job, that she has resolved the issues in her live and that she sees me now for the person that I actually am. In the past she critisised me for being rigid and stobborn, unloving to my children, not ambitious enough, etc. I thought that she was unrealistic in her expectations. She now thinks that we have the best chance to shore up our relationship and marriage again.

In the meantime I am torn in two: How can I leave the woman with which I have had the best relationship that I ever had with a woman and who has stood by me during the worst nightmare of my life BUT how can I not go back to my wife (from whom I am not yet divorced after 9 months). I am not someone who likes failure, including marriage failure. I would also not like to subject my children to the tragedy of a broken home if I can help it. What holds me back from going back is my nagging fear that our relationship will fall back again into the same squables, differences and unloving criticism AND that she cannot see why she should break off contact whith the men she slept with during our marriage and after we separated.

How can I make the right desicion? After I told my wife that I decided to go back to her, a black fear took hold of my heart and an unbearable sadness for my wonderfull girlfriend filled my eyes with tears. I am at my wit's end. In the meantime, I refrained from telling my girlfriend what is brewing in my mind. She, therefore, remains her old wonderfull, caring self towards me. How can I make the right decision?

First off, welcome to MB’s. This is a great site if you want to get support, work on yourself, and take some good criticism. Unfortunately as I read through your thread the criticism comes to mind foremost.

I don’t mean to sound negative but are you for real? I would encourage you to look at yourself a little. I noticed in your post that you put all the marital problems as well as your situational issues on your wife and you have your GF parenting where you should be. I’m very concerned for the children involved in this situation.

Objectively look at this from the outside. You are a married man who was introduced to a married woman and your now living with her while you are still married. Your children have seen their lives torn to pieces and instead of allowing them time to heal and being their rock, you bring more turmoil into their lives. Then on top of that you allow the GF (who don’t know if she’s married or not) to basically BLAME mom for everything thus putting them in the middle of this situation and forcing them to choose who is right and who is wrong. That is an unfair choice for children of their ages to have to make, all they want to do is love their parents unconditionally.

My suggestion is first to get the GF/OW out, even if it’s only temporary, for she clouds the situation. Second, get into some individual counseling, family counseling, and marriage counseling even if your marriage doesn’t work it will help evolve communication skills that aren’t there right now. Third, wait until you are in a healthy emotional state before you make your final decision and that cannot be accomplished while you are with the OW. Fourth and most important be a man and a father right now to those children. Mentor them through your behaviors and actions on how to live a just life. Would you want your daughter to skip from a husband to a live in boyfriend while she’s still married and has kids witnessing and suffering through the whole situation? I don’t think so.

Disagree totally......the WW asked for this situation....she even set it up. I say let the WW one think a while about what she has done. She had the multiple affairs and brought the neighbor over and all of that CRAZINESS. I would SIT TIGHT and not do a thing. Why give up a good woman for a lier, cheater, manipulator....even if the last is the mother of your children. I would stay put. My .02. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bobcat,

First, let me recommend that you do a LOT of reading of the articles on this site. I would strongly recommend reading Surviving an Affair by Harley.

Next, let's call a spade a spade here. Your W has had multiple affairs. She left and made no attempt to tell you what happened. Presumably her affairs were obvious enough that you found out A LOT of information about her affairs after the fact.

Am I right?

Next, you are married right? So you are having an affair as well. So what makes your affair better, more acceptable, a better model for your children?

Please think about these things.

Now, let me ask you a few questions. Has your W done anything to change herself beside having her affair end and annouce that she wants you back? Is there any reason for you to believe that she won't have more affairs? Has anything changed in her view of life or her focus in life?

Do you really want to be married to her?

Why didn't you divorce her already?

Based on what you have said your mistress is a better woman than your W. However, you are also in an affair and have been jilted by your W so our account of things may not be the total reality.

My recommendation follows those of others. Seek counseling, ask hard questions of yourself, your W, and yes your mistress.

I am not a "save the marriage at all costs type of person". Neither are the Harley's apparently, but you do have children and they are to be considered. It seems from your post that your W doesn't consider them very much, so you had better.

So let us know what you think. Do some reading and definitely seek some counseling about this.

God Bless,

JL

I agree...

You have done no better with your situation than your wife has. In fact, you have openly been adultrous in my opinion. Not that it is worse, but it is certainly no better.

Your current girlfriend is not material that I would want to be the future 'mother figure' for my children. She was married and has a child, yet she was willing to live with a married man also with children. She divorced her husband, (Was this her SECOND mariage?) in order to be with you. She has put your children's mother down repeatedly in order to boost you up. That is HORRIBLE. Your children need to understand that their mother loves them, even though that might be in a way that doesn't seem normal. I would be livid if someone that I met started saying those types of things to my children. I think that she is detrimental to your children's future and their current wellbeing. Even if your wife is horrible, your young children don't need to be hearing that, especially from a live in.

Personally, I think you need to get away from everyone. You need to figure out what kind of a person you are and want your children's father to be. See if you are one in the same. Would you be happy with your children doing what you are doing? Would you be happy having your children's spouse doing what you are doing?

Yep, I think you are screwing up. I don't know whether you should return to your wife. I also don't know whether she should take you back. Neither of you have been acting like an adult that has any sense.

Perhaps your children should live with another family member while you and your wife figure out if you are married or not.

Yes this is somewhat scathing, but as was stated earlier. Lets call a spade a spade. The definition of adultery is very clear. I see no differences in who did it first. I know that others do.

There ya have it........two totally different options. Its up to you. God Bless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bobcat-

Forgive me for asking this question, but I noticed in reading your story that you mention "a lesbian experiment emerged".

Was this the relationship she was having when she intoduced you to this other woman?

If you read my profile, you'll understrand my interest in asking this question.

"What put me off from returning is her impulsive behaviour, the fact that she thinks it is nonsense to break off contact with her former lovers. "They are great people and by breaking of contact it will be an admittance that their are still feelings for them in her heart" she says. "

In my opinion, if she is still thinking in this way, the chances are very likely that she will have more affairs and you will be back to square one. Only difference will be that you will be older and will have wasted more years in a dysfunctional marriage. Telling you that she has changed and that the marriage will be better are only words. Of course, there is the possibility that she has grown up and become a responsible adult but she needs to show you by her ACTIONS that this true. If you are considering reconciliation take it very slowly. She needs to earn your trust. She needs to show that she is remorseful for what she did. She needs to show by her actions that she will do everything to rebuild the marriage by addressing problems in herself that made her vulnerable to having affairs.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm doing some hard thinking, that's why I turned to this forum.

I agree, I'm in an adultourous relationship with the understanding that I do get divorced. I am at the point now where my W and I agreed to how our assets should be split, joint custody and access to the kids. I am now at the point where the summons for a divorce has to be sent out. I don't want to keep my girlfriend in suspense any longer, nor my W.

It took much wrangling with W to come to an agreement on how to split the assets. Initially, she had no sympathy for me and I felt that she wanted me to move out with only the clothes on my body so to speak. Only after getting legal advice and thanks to a favourable prenuptual contract could I negotiate an agreement that was more realistic. I felt that not only did she put me through hell, she also thought that she could send me away with everyting intact around her. She already had a new lover prospect lined up at that stage with whom she envisaged a future after the previous man with which she had an affair, ran for the woods the moment she told him that she was going to divorce me.

Yes, my current GF did the same thing to her husband. Yes, it was her 2nd marriage. I feel that I've come a distance since those dark days of last year. Through all the criticism of family and friends I'm trying to cut my way out of the woods. I can now begin to put things into perspective and start looking at everything objectively.

I did forgive my wife for what she did: fully. We correspond a lot via email and recriminations flew all over the place. My W is not someone who easily admits a mistake or express sorrow for the harm that she caused. Her style is to throw twice as many recriminations back. But, eventually, she did blurt out that she was really sorry. I think that she geniunly wants me back. When I brought her the agreement to sign, she just shook her head and said that she never thought that she would have to sign this paper. That's when I really started to think about the chances of reconcilliation.

Problem is, at that stage I actually had my mind fully made up that I was going through the divorce that my W wanted, which I so desperately tried to avoid during those initial dark days, and which soon seemed so inevitable to me. Then I was going to ask my GF to marry me because we were forced into trying to set up a new home for our kids, away from our unloving spouces. Yes, she jilted her husband after years of seeming harshness from him towards her and I was jilted by my wife. We resolved to start anew with each other. It was at this stage that my wife really, seriously asked me to reconsider.

Now that I see my wife in a new light, I am wondering about her. What sort of person gets herself talked into putting up secret advertisements on the internet to invite people of the same sex to meet her so that they can experiment with lesbian sex? Admittedly it happened only once and she lost her taste for it, hopefully. Not in my wildest dreams did I thought that my wife was that sort of person. The first man with whom she had an affair showed her how to do it and actually put up the advertisement for her on the internet. My son is 9 years old but she still baths with him occasionally (the last time that I know of was last year while I was still in the house), notwithstanding my protests. She is of the opinion that I am too full of rules and regulations when I want us to eat together as a family. "Is this now our little family?" she said mockingly after I laid the table and had the kids together with me for dinner last year after she told me that she wanted a divorce. During the 8 months preceeding her divorce announcement, she enrolled at the local squash club and fanatically started playing squash. She genuinly believed that almost every 2nd man there became numb in the knees with lust when she appears on the court in her tights. And yes, men started to follow her and chat her up. And, enjoying being the centre of atraction, she chatted back. With her outgoing demeanour, and the fact that she must have felt nothing for me at that stage already, she was very alluring. In those days she told me about one of them who made a champagne breakfast appointment with her on the pretext that he wanted her professional opinion on some problem. She told me with obvious delight that he actually told her that he wondered if he could visit her at home and come to know her more intimitaly. That man is married. I listened with disgust at her tale and warned her that she should stay away from him. At that stage I thought that he was the one who took a chance with her, but the way I figure it now is that he would not have done it if she did not behave in such a way that he thought he had a chance to know her more intimately. She also hates her stepmother with whom I had a very good relationship. She resents that. Only last week she emailed me and out of the blue she announced in a childish sort of way: "I HATE that woman. And I resents you talking/discussing with her. And you actually went to her to discuss our marriage problems. I resent that." One email later she told me "...and you so critised my father. I love my father." I never critisised him and when I prompted her to be more spesific she said: "...you always said he was sissss and that he was sooooo". Childish, and still nothing specific.

She also has a brother who suffers from a bipolar affection disorder and I don't know if she is not affected to some degree too. She is the one in the family on which her father pinned the responsiblilty to look after her brother after he has gone. She has a very special relationship with her father and they wanted to know at some stage if they could not build a flat for him at our home. I was concerned for our privacy, the influence of her brother's problems on the children and our family unity so I refused. Later I learned from her that she resented my refusal. I have sympathy for her family problems, but my own family and the children must have 1st priority in my estimation. I want to protect them from unnecessary external problems.

That is why I said in my first posting that the moment I told my wife that I was going to come back to her, a black fear gripped my heart. I just don't know if a person can change that much. Who in his right mind would not grab the chance of getting the family whole again...but, I just think that none of this whould have happened if my wife was a more stable kind of person, the kind of person whom I imagened her to be for the first 10 years of my marriage. Surely, I could have tried to attend to her specific needs more, going camping more, try to get a higher income job (not that I am at the bottom of the food chane currently as an engineer), but I always thaught that I did enough in and around the house to please her. She said that everything will be "right" between us from now on. Why is my intuition making me so cautios. Why throw away a good relationship and a chance to provide my children with good manners and lots of loving attention to go back to something that I am not 100% at eas with. I so want to take my wife on her word but I heard about 2nd tries that did not work: you know, the "he slept around, so she divorced him, then she remarried him, and he still slept around, so she divorced him for the final time" kind of stories.

Sounds to me - after reading all the posts here - that unless you really are a GLUTTON for misery, you'd be better off either:
-alone
-with your Girlfriend now
JMHO.
I was married to a verbally abusive woman for almost 18 years - what an actress she was! One thing I learned after our divorce 5 years ago...
some folks never change...
Life goes on.
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bobcat:
<strong>I so want to take my wife on her word but I heard about 2nd tries that did not work: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not pro-marriage in your casse bobcat, I'm pro-child. That's my little niche in the world. Find some statistics on 2nd tries in marriages and compare them to 2nd and 3rd marriage failure rates. You may be pretty shocked.

If you do stay with current GF, whom if I remember correctly, you asked her to marry you while you were still married, then you both need to do some reading on how to parent children of divorce. Though my X makes Darth Vader look like Prince Charming, if a girlfriend of mine demeened her authority and attempted to destroy her relationship with my girls by the statement in your first post, her butt would be on a one-way trip to the sidewalk.

YOUR KIDS..... YOUR KIDS...... Focus on your kids. Are you being a role model for them? Are you showing them the best way to live their lives by your example? If you believe you are then more power to you, but if you aren't then change.

I also urge some serious self-examination. I here you talking about what your "wife" did and how terrible she is and what your gf's "husband" did and how bad he was, the question share of the blame do y'all hold for the demise of the marriage. It's easy to look out the window and see what's wrong with the world but not so easy to look in the mirror and truly humble ourselves by self-examination.

I pray, for your kid's sake, that you are taking the correct path in life. Yet my experiences watching others walk a similar path tells me otherwise. I honestly don't mean to come down hard on you but man you are being totally selfish and unrealistic to believe that you and OW are in any type of heathy position to make any type of long term decisions. You never healed and she never healed, heck your not even divorced, just as two wrongs don't make a right, two unhealthy people don't make one healthy one. 1.6 years, statistically is how long you two will be together.

Take things slow. Get your kid's into counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you do stay with current GF, whom if I remember correctly, you asked her to marry you while you were still married, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ugh, this is not a good situation. . . for bobcat. . not at all. . . its jumping from one situation to another, so no wonder that you are wondering, your head is not on straight yet about the demise of your first marriage. . .

lose the current GF, live by yourself for 3-5 years. . . and date but do not get attached. . .

you gotta learn about yourself, since you obviously don't understand yourself yet. .

wiftty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>[QUOTE]lose the current GF, live by yourself for 3-5 years. . . and date but do not get attached. . .

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its not fair to bobcat to make this kind of comment. What if he really does love his GF and what if she is the one he should be with. Everyone is far from perfect and we all make mistakes....what bobcats GF did may not have been right, but you shouldnt judge people as you are. bobcat knows this woman better than all and people meet under the strangest of circumstances. Ive seen people marry after only dating for weeks and they are extrememly happy and have been married for year. I know of others that dated for years, got married...had children and then divorced. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What is the answer....there really is no way to tell who is right for who. Let bobcat figure that out. What he does need to do is NOT go back to his WW. JMHO!!!! God Bless and Good Luck bobcat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITSOVER:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>[QUOTE]lose the current GF, live by yourself for 3-5 years. . . and date but do not get attached. . .

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its not fair to bobcat to make this kind of comment. What if he really does love his GF and what if she is the one he should be with. Everyone is far from perfect and we all make mistakes....what bobcats GF did may not have been right, but you shouldnt judge people as you are. bobcat knows this woman better than all and people meet under the strangest of circumstances. Ive seen people marry after only dating for weeks and they are extrememly happy and have been married for years. I know of others that dated for years, got married...had children and then divorced. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What is the answer....there really is no way to tell who is right for who. Let bobcat figure that out. What he does need to do is NOT go back to his WW. JMHO!!!! God Bless and Good Luck bobcat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Your wife telling you that everything will now be alright with the marriage should not be taken seriously. She needs to prove to you that she is a changed person who has taken responsibility over her bad behaviour. If she is interested in being married she needs to convince you that you are the man who she has always loved. Otherwise, you will feel that she settled for you only because her other relationships failed.

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: tomaz ]</small>

Why can't I just make a dicision and go for it? It's basically a choice between giving up a rock-solid relationship with a stunningly beautiful, loving, caring GF who thinks that I'm the best thing that happened since the English discovered sliced bread, AND going back to restart a shaky marriage relationship with a W who brings back memories of pain, hurt, verbal abuse, but also some good times that we have had and providing my kids with a good, stable home again. She's so into what is modern and trendy and "power to the children" and against conservative, basic values. But who am I to speak?

And the best (or worst) of the tale is, this is self-inflicted pain this time-around.

Fortunately, the kids are still as fine as can be under the circumstances. In fact, far better care are now taken of them by me, my GF and my W than has been taken of them while I was still with W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bobcat:
<strong>Fortunately, the kids are still as fine as can be under the circumstances. In fact, far better care are now taken of them by me, my GF and my W than has been taken of them while I was still with W.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My kids are better honestly also....yes they have two homes now, but at least the fighting, anger, and just plain bitterness their parents showed towards one another is no longer there. My children are in a much more stable household from my end. I really cant say from the EXs side, I pray she makes good decisions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Im also happy that my kids do not have to aske me all the time........"where is mommy, when is she coming home, she is never here"........when she was out doing her thing and leaving us at home all the time. Now she has to stay home and spend time.

<small>[ June 06, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: ITSOVER ]</small>