I just wanted to say thanks to you again, Wiffty, for mentioning passive aggressive behavior and explaining it a bit in a thread a couple of weeks ago.

Here I am, 10 months past d-day, 8 1/2 months of being separated, and well on the way to being divorced (and would be by now, if MD didn't require a year of separation - actually, it could be sooner if I wanted to go on grounds of adultery, but you need a witness, have to go to court, etc., and why bother to just shorten it by a few months?) Yet until the last few weeks, I was STILL feeling really blindsided by everything. Not that I didn't know there were problems, because I did. But because nothing I ever did was good enough to fix the problems, he always denied there were problems, and when I tried to figure out what he wanted and needed from me, I felt like I was trying to eat jello with a fork. Every time I felt like I finally had figured out at least one way to meet his needs (and I had to figure it out, because he wouldn't tell me), he would change what he wanted, and act like I was crazy for ever thinking he could ever have wanted what I had thought he wanted.

And I now am just amazed at some of the things I did just because I had learned that it was easier to do what I knew he wanted than to put up with the silence, the sullenness, and the repressed anger that I would deal with for days afterwards if I didn't.

A good example - my STBX is an extremely picky eater, which I now am beginning to think has more to do with his PA behavior than with real likes and dislikes. Many of the 'forbidden' foods are ones he has never even tried, or things like - he doesn't like cheese unless it's on pizza, even to the extent that he got really mad at me once for not telling him that the toast he had been enjoying for a long time at Sizzler, before they left our area, was actually cheese toast. He had really loved it until he found out it had cheese - then he was mad at me for not telling him it had cheese on it, and he refused to eat it again....and soon refused to even go back to Sizzler.

And that wasn't even the story I started to tell! I just brought up the food issues to explain this one. I can't tell you how many times I brought home fast food late at night on my way home from band practice/church, only to have to take his back and get the right thing at 11:30 at night. We would wait to have dinner together, and it was my job to bring it home. But if I got it home and they got something of his wrong, he would get upset and refuse to eat it. Well, ok, but he would refuse to eat anything - wouldn't make himself something, wouldn't let me make him something. Again, ok, right? Rational people say he's a big boy - he wants to go hungry, let him. But it wasn't just that he decided not to eat. It was like a black cloud descended over the entire house, and I could tell he was angry. He would basically pout. Not only that, but I knew that if things didn't get fixed, he would remain sullen and angry for days, and over the next few days he would end up doing all kinds of things to "get even" with me, even though he claimed he didn't. Would play the heavy metal that he knew I hated at top volume when we were in the car, and sometimes in the house too, would tease my cat mercilessly for days (not his cat, just mine), would leave used tissues on my side of the bed or where I saton the couch (he left them on every other surface of the house too, but those were two areas that I had managed to convince him not to leave them because it absolutely drove me nuts to put my hand down on or sit down on his used tissues, especially since they were not wadded up like most people do, they were left spread out flat with every possible surface used - yeah, sorry to gross out anyone reading this, but without that description, it's hard for some people to understand why this was so irritating.) And he would do other little things like that - but not to get even, of course. And he always said he was sorry, he didn't realize, he forgot, it was an accident, etc. So rather than live with that, I would go back out and get the corrected order - of course, he would insist I didn't have to, but he was miserable to be around until I insisted that I would fix it. And if I suggested he go do it, he just would say he didn't feel like going back out, he was tired, and he would just skip eating...and go back to being obviously angry and impossible to be around. But hey, when I finally insisted that I would go get the right food, he would insist that I eat mine first so it didn't get cold. So see, he was really being quite thoughtful and considerate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And the above is just the tip of the iceberg. And I've still found myself questioning, wondering if I really was being unreasonable, if I really was just nagging all the time (well, in the last two years or so, I was, because I was so frustrated that he refused to help with anything in the house....or actually, would do things like promise to put away some towels "in a minute," and then complain that I was nagging when I mentioned 3 weeks later that the towels were STILL sitting on the table.) Feeling like everything was all my fault, even though I have absolutely NO idea what I was doing wrong, and he wouldn't tell me, would in fact tell me that nothing was wrong. And wondering how I could be like this, accept all this, after all, I am fairly intelligent, and was raised in a family that had respect for each other, that talked to each other, and that was honest with each other.

Putting a name on what is going on with him, in and of itself, didn't do anything to help me. But going out and seeing that everything I am feeling is NORMAL for the situation I was in, and that I wasn't going nuts, and that, based on what I'm reading out there, that I wasn't fooling myself, that he probably did a very good job of hiding all this when we were going out and even the first couple of years of our marriage, which is why I didn't see it coming. I keep saying it's like he's a completely different person than the man I married - but what I'm seeing as I read is that the man I married didn't really exist, he was just a really good front that a PA personality knows how to put on when a relationship is new.

For me, knowing this stuff helps. Because one of my biggest fears was - if I don't know why all this happened, and if I'm baffled because I didn't see it coming, and had no idea when I married him that he would be capable of treating me the way he has the past few years - then how can I ever trust a relationship again? But I'm starting to understand. And I think I'm even starting to see things I missed when we were dating that might have given me a clue. Things that, if I had really pursued them a little further, could have warned me what I was getting into, if I had been willing to pay attention to them.

More than anything, reading about it and seeing him described almost exactly by other women talking about their SO's makes me understand a little better why I was so unsuccessful when I tried to fix things in our marriage. I'm not saying I was perfect - I have no doubt there was plenty I needed to work on and improve - but I can now see that he was never going to give me the knowledge I needed to even know what I needed to work on, and that I probably could have been perfect, done everything right as a wife, and it still wouldn't have been good enough.

I don't mind taking some of the responsibility for our marriage failing - I just wanted to know what I did wrong that I needed to take responsibility for. I will probably never get an answer to that from him, but at least now I don't feel quite so lost in dealing with all this.

So thanks again wiffty, for pointing me (event though the post wasn't directed at me, per se) in the right direction. It's helping.

For me it was knowing that I wasn't insane. Because one of us had to be crazy. And he certainly wasn't going to admit to it.

His pyschiatrist who H. meets with once a month for 15 minutes to get Lexapro recommended "procrastination therapy." Ha. That's just the tip.

Hi Penguin,

It's a great day when you realize you're not crazy, isnt it? I read the website you refered to in 'hopesalive' thread, and it fit my exH to a T.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H sounds like my exH. It was like, 'Now I KNOW why everyone leaves you, and if your not willing to pull your head OUT, I'm leaving, too'. I did, never regretted it. His MOM couldnt understand why I stayed, and helped me try to get him on meds ran in the family).

He spent a year woooing me, telling me how smart and pretty I was, and the next 6 years telling me I was stupid and that people only talked to me cause I had big t*ts. Some guy, huh?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, that man could pout! The thing about being picky with food, that was him!

My friends, and HIS friends noticed the change. They thought I'd brought out the best in him, because when we were dating we was 'ON', really great guy. Then we married, and that guy was gone. Everyone wondered what happened. He was very deliberate in gettin me to marry him, and then he just crawled back into his hole...

It takes a while to recover, I was shell-shocked, and expeceted every guy to be a raging a**hole. Kind of a reflex... Take care - Dru

Although I might have helped, forgive me for not remembering exactly. And you did most of the work, so you deserve most of the credit.

the worst part of it is, you can't tell if its real or you until afterwards. . .

boy, i hated that part. . . it was all my fault until i stood back and really examined the events did i figure out what was going on. . .

well, the more education and reading you do, the more you are prepared and alerted to these ranges of human behaviors. . .

that just make us all human. . .

good for you, and keep up the good attitude. . .

wiftty

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

Where is this article that you are talking about? I can't find it. Our MC/IC labeled my ex P/A- I had never heard of it before and then read the definition and could not believe it. My ex would not get angry with me openly until I blew up at him, but instead would forget everything, not want to do anything, say no just because, forget to do things- big things - little things- and then be upset with me for getting upset- or I would end up feeling guilty, or shrugging it off like it was no big deal. It was the strangest thing. Now I am so used to that behavior that it is weird to communicate with a man who does not do that. I did not know how to meet his EN's (I didn't know them as EN's but i HAD read the 5 Love languages so I knew the concept) because I could not figure out what they were. Nothing much I did excited him. Do you think PA's have EN's?? Can you clearly define them if they are being PA?

Thanks all!

Yes, the knowing I'm not insane is the great part. Actually, I knew I wasn't insane - I just felt like everyone must think I was!

Once last story, and I promise I'll stop then. I think he was actually trying to make me think I was crazy at one point. He used to try convincing me that things that had happened never happened, and that things that had never happened really did. And it was never big stuff - stuff where you'd KNOW you would remember. It was the little stuff that's easy to have a faulty memory on. Stuff like telling me we had already kissed goodnight when we hadn't, or that he hadn't moved something when he had, and tried to convince me I had moved it and didn't remember. And I was starting to think my memory was really going.....until I realized that the only time it happened was with him. Never at work, never with my family, never at church, and I am active at church, so I spend a lot of time there. And a few times after I realized that, I held my ground that I was the one who was right, and he would finally admit he was just 'messing with me.' Ha, ha, funny, right.

Except once or twice is funny. Doing it on a regular basis and implying I must be losing it....that's a whole different ballgame. And it continued, even after I called him on it several times, until I found a new way to handle it. I started doing it back to him. And I am a really good actress - I'm a horrible liar, but if I am "playing a part" I can be really, really convincing, so I decided I was just playing a part when I did it back to him. And several times I convinced him I was the one who was right....and then several days later, told him I was 'just messing with him.' Ha, ha again, right? Nope. Was no longer funny according to him, and it stopped completely at that point.

Ok, that may not be the best way to handle things in a marriage, at least not when you want it to work - but I had really started reaching the end of my rope at that point.

When I was looking around about PA today, I found excerpts from a book, and decided I needed to go get it today! So I picked it up on the way home from work. It's "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" by Wetzel. I want to eventually sit down and read the whole thing, but I started reading bits and pieces here and there, and wow, I would swear the man had been living in my house!

In particular, there is one part about sex and the PA man, and I dropped my jaw when I read the descriptions. That happens to be one area where I have been having a whole lot of trouble, because he said a whole lot of things towards the end that made me question myself a lot in that area. And because of my beliefs, I really have no way to, shall we say, get personal reinforcement that all of that was just more of his PA manipulative behavior. So reading about our sex life described to a T in that book helped a whole lot. It's the one area where I was still questioning, thinking "well, maybe I did do that, maybe I did drive him to an affair, maybe it was my fault that he was never able to 'satisfy' me....." But I'm starting to feel a whole lot better about that now too.

The book is supposedly geared towards learning how to live with someone who is PA, and it's a bit late for that for me. And to tell you the truth, I never thought I would say this, but I'm glad I didn't find it until too late - I probably would have felt obligated to try and make it work again, and I was miserable. And didn't realize how miserable until he walked out and I got past the initial feelings of "my life is over." I am much better off alone!!!

So why read the book now? Because I want to understand this better - I want to know what to look for, how to recognize warning signs. I had much the same experience with my STBX as several of you have said you had - when we first got together and first got married, he seemed to "grow up." His family really loved me and said what a good influence I was on him.....well, they still love me, but over time, my good influence just seemed to wear off.

If I ever do start dating again, I want to be reasonably sure that I will recognize a PA man so I can run as fast as possible in the other direction.

Oops, sorry adgirl. You must have been posting at the same time as I was, because I didn't see your post until after mine was up!

When you ask which article, I assume you are talking about the thread and site that Drucilla mentioned. It is a thread on the Recovery board, started by Hopeisalive. I don't remember the exact name of the thread, but just click on my profile and look for my recent posts and you should find it.

And the site I give the link for in the other thread is:

www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com

Thanks Penguin!

I know mine is PA. I thought until one year ago that it was all me as he says...

And do any of you find yourself somewhat falling back into the "yea it must have been me" when they complain and blame you all again?

The RO has been lifted for 2 weeks and he's already blamed me again "you never change" comment he made to me and calling me a "you know what" and "idiot".

He blamed me for everything. The affair and even for his abuse.

Mine is PA, sociopath, and narcissist. What a combo.

He WON'T go to see a shrink, a real one who prescribes meds, because he would be afraid to be told he was seriously ill. And he's sane enough to appear charming and handsome and sweet talking when the opportunity to better either himself or his circumstances arises. I have to watch out b/c sometimes he tries to make me even think the same thing.

And the "it wasn't me" lie...Just like you guys being told that something we saw/witnessed/ were informed of/ didn't happen. My lifelong best friend busted Jethro at home of 1st0W, Monkeyho, and he comes home within 15 min. and claims he "was at the mall buying a pair of nikes and getting me some gummy bears". I thought I was losing my mind. He'd say he never hit me. He'd say that FV isn't spending the night when she is...she's living there!

Boundaries are important. I think he may be beginning to somehow view a bit of his own destruction and that's hopeful. We pray for him and hope he will just get down enough to decide to either seek spiritual help or psych help. But the problem is he might lie to the therapist/minister because he already has done that.

We always pray for that smallest chance they could be helped and change don't we?

I know mine is PA. I thought until one year ago that it was all me as he says...

And do any of you find yourself somewhat falling back into the "yea it must have been me" when they complain and blame you all again?

The RO has been lifted for 2 weeks and he's already blamed me again "you never change" comment he made to me and calling me a "you know what" and "idiot".

He blamed me for everything. The affair and even for his abuse.

Mine is PA, sociopath, and narcissist. What a combo.

He WON'T go to see a shrink, a real one who prescribes meds, because he would be afraid to be told he was seriously ill. And he's sane enough to appear charming and handsome and sweet talking when the opportunity to better either himself or his circumstances arises. I have to watch out b/c sometimes he tries to make me even think the same thing.

And the "it wasn't me" lie...Just like you guys being told that something we saw/witnessed/ were informed of/ didn't happen. My lifelong best friend busted Jethro at home of 1st0W, Monkeyho, and he comes home within 15 min. and claims he "was at the mall buying a pair of nikes and getting me some gummy bears". I thought I was losing my mind. He'd say he never hit me. He'd say that FV isn't spending the night when she is...she's living there!

Boundaries are important. I think he may be beginning to somehow view a bit of his own destruction and that's hopeful. We pray for him and hope he will just get down enough to decide to either seek spiritual help or psych help. But the problem is he might lie to the therapist/minister because he already has done that.

We always pray for that smallest chance they could be helped and change don't we?