I agree with the second comment from the other forum. It's not really the MB way, but I am not someone who believes in there only being one way to do things. That would be consistent with Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough", and Dobson is quite old, with many many years of experience and is a trained psychologist. Have you read that book? If not, please do. Go to www.family.org, you can order it there as well as read an excerpt (a good, long one).
That is sad about the police thing. I can see how it would create an environment for affairs. Especially if there are opposite sex partners. The normal boundaries are probably crossed early on among all of them due to the comraderie that seems to justify it.
There's a lot of that stuff in the military too. When WH was stationed on a boat, I was very worried about women being on it, as they are with those people in a very small space 24 hours a day. When we lived in a navy town, there were hords of young wives, left behind for 6 months at time. You know what they were called? "Navy Widows". They continue to go out clubbing just like they were single. And that's considered normal. (God only knows what their husbands do when they pull into port!)
Anyway, our society does not support marriage. Keeping a strong marriage is going against the grain, and takes a lot of work from both parties. My friends, who have a very strong marriage both agree the #1 important quality in a marriage is selflessness.
I'm glad I'm being helpful - sometimes it's just knowing someone is there that will respond that's the most helpful thing! I know I hate it when I post something and it falls off the board in half a day.
I know when all this started happening to me, that I thought I was the only one going through it. That was a scary and lonely feeling. That's why this forum has been so helpful. And I enjoy having ongoing conversations like this because it's helpful to me too and that's how my mind works. I like to disect things to bits! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am most thankful for your help & understanding.
I think you are right in saying in a previous post about doing a 180. This week I am not going to initiate any phonecalls or emails. This weekend I will tell her I want to talk both friday & saturday night. That I want to write this stuff out & maybe see our counselor in a joint session. Today I see the same pscyh she sees. I need to get a prescription refilled for anti-depressants With all this happening now, I need the help.
This is something she wrote to me after she dropped the second bomb (on a tuesday night), while in joint counseling no less, on me about being controlling & emotionally abusive. I was so hurt that I coulnd't work the rest of the week. She finally emailed me that friday at my work, but I of course was not there. I emailed her the following monday & drove to visit her that Tuesday night, surprising her.

((So, what are your plans for Friday? I mean, are you wanting to talk or something. To be honest, at this point, I really don't feel comfortable enough to go out and do stuff with you. I'm sorry but I'm being honest. I also hope you were not too badly disappointed that I could not kiss you on the lips last night. At this point, it is very hard for me to be affectionate. I mean, I can hug, and I appreciate the hugs, back massage and supper. Thank you for that. And it was good to see you and know that you are physically ok. I just really don't feel like hanging out right now. Maybe if I can start taking some medicine it will help my situation but know just because I'll be taking medicine won't make our situation 100% better. I am still a very wounded creature and the fact that I didn't hear from you until Monday puts salt in my cuts even more. Yes, I understand you were giving me room. Thank you. I need as much room as possible. But its like your punishing me for telling you what I did that Tuesday night...leaving me hanging that whole week in total despair.))

selfish

More than likely, she cannot kiss you, etc because she feels guilty about something. Yes, that was all self-centered talk, typical of WS. She sure didn't like it when you weren't right on top of replying to her. Loss of control...
It's good for her. She's been holding all the cards and she knows it. Time to shake things up.

This may seem like a strange request, but could you write a little about what you think has been your part in the downfall of your marriage? Not that you are to blame - I know that none of us deserve what our WS are doing to us. But I feel like I am missing some important peices of the puzzle. How do you view your marriage before d-day? Do you see any truth at all to any of her accusations? Even a smidgen of truth? We all have faults and failures - what would you say yours were/are?
Hope you don't mind that question, I just would like to see the whole picture, thereby being able to have better insight.

The class she was taking was the downfall in my book. My session last night with the counselor confirmed that. Last year we started counseling just after the class started. But the issues there were the distance we had between us, the withdrawal I had from her, she said we were 'going in different directions' (common cliche) The class gave her an outlet to be with friends that shared a common interest, law enforcement. I can understand someone drifting apart due to that. I guess in her mind, she had more in common with them than with me. I think she thought, wow finally here is a group of people who think just like me. Rather, as the class progressed, she became like them (arrogant, cursing alot, going out alot with them). When I found the notes, it all made sense. My W craves attention. Just general attention. By flirting, she gets the male attention. The class & common interests (police stuff) alllows bonds with women. She really never has bonded with women outside her profession, except her friends from high school.
I felt a general sense of distance in our relationship. She just seemed different. The counselor noted to me that I was the one who tried to stop this behavior from happening, & that she just let in continue in small steps. Its kinda like slipping down a mountain with only half a brake working.
The controlling issue, I guess has some truth. But in a small sense. I would ask, where she going if she was going out with friends, who was going, when will she back, etc. Like I said before, I also asked her about why she was glamming up for her class & coming home early to do it. Why the thongs? She would get upset. That I was controlling what she wore & did. I didn't force her to change or nothing. I never said 'if you leave going out that way, don't come back'. Never. She viewed it as making her feel guilty. Being guilty about what? She knew deep down inside why. If she knew I had a problem with it, then why continue doing it. Do a 180 on me so to speak.

I guess my faults are being insecure about my relationship with her. There were times in our past where I felt that alot. While we were dating, the were situations that made me feel that way. One day, an old friend called her up (I don't know how he got her dorm phone #) & said he was coming to see her. Well I knew she had a crush on him at one time (they even kissed). Well she & I had to reschedule our plans for his visit. She didn't want me to be there when he arrived. He never showed up. With that, she called me up & said that she was ready to go out. My thoughts were that I was a back up plan. Just insecure on my part. Other stuff happend too. Long story. I almost broke up with her about some of it.

Before the bomb was dropped (mid jan). I would say back in early december, I could feel some more distance developing. Her class ended & I believe things fell apart for her. No longer was her world a fantasy, it was becoming reality. During the course of the class, even though we were going to counseling, she really never had to focus super seriously on our relationship. I mean I was the one who convinced her to make an appt for counseling in the first place. I bought the books (Dr Phil, etc). She never tried to read them. Between Oct & dec, I felt things were OK. I was living away from her, b/c of my job. I thought, OK she has time to get this out of her system. But she didn't. She was allowing us to slip further down the mountain. She wasn't applying that brake. It just got worse I guess. She sure had me fooled, b/c she helped me pick out the appartment we were both to live in when she moved over to be with me.

We both had faults. She has written 11 pages about mine I guess. She easily finds the negative. According to her I just annoy her in petty ways. To me, she doens't give me my emotional needs. Or even tries to. For instance, I ask for more affection from her (just telling me she loves me, little notes, phone calls, etc). She says that she is not programmed to give alot of affection. Maybe due to her family up bringing. BS

Things were the same for us - me asking for affection and WH refusing. But the difference is that he is naturally a very affectionate person. He used to be with me, before his EA. And I had to watch him the past 7 months be extremely affectionate with his family meanwhile purposely rejecting and neglecting me. It was very painful.
She has no motivation to do those things for you because 1. her heart is elsewhere and 2. she doesen't WANT you to feel loved by her - she wants out.
OK, I definitely get the class thing. That is when everything really became evident. What about the rest of your marriage before that? Describe that to me.
Here, I will give you an example.
The huge downward spiral for us became evident when WH began putting so much into his relationship w/ OW and I began to notice it, then blew up in my face when we were apart for 6 weeks for work reasons and he used that time to self-destruct.
However, looking back, the problem began way before that.
He felt rejected because of my lack of interest in sex. I explained to him many times it had nothing to do with him and everything to do with me - my hormones changing due to pregnancy and breastfeeding, exhaustion and stress from being a 19 year old new mom, etc. Also, he wasn't meeting my ENs either, so it became a cycle. I never realized how rejected he really felt. Looking back I feel terrible. I wish I would have at least pretended to be interested!! (The frustrating thing is that now that my girls are bigger and I have gone back to normal, I'm very interested, but now he doesen't care!)
Anyway, my point is that my denying him sex and focusing more on the kids than him, he felt extremely rejected and became very disappointed with his life, and then became hopeless. There were other things too, but that is an example for you.
What I'm getting at is that there are usually precipitating factors involved - something that sets the stage for the big drama. It can be very helpful if you can pinpoint some of those things.

Let start from the beginning. The first years were 'normal' I guess. We were tied at the hip. We did everything together. It was great. I had a best friend & lover to be with constantly. We talked about children. She wanting 3-4. I didn't want any at the time, b/c my job was unstable & her career was unstable as well. I knew if we had children, I would have to be financially able to support a family. At the time we weren't ready. She seemed ready, but looking back I think it was a fantasy for her. I don't think she realized the demands a child brings into a family. Well, anyway that became an issue for her now. The fact she wants 3-4 children & according to her, I only want 1 right now. I mean it takes time to have 3 children. You have to plan how to bring a child into the world. Two years ago, I could see some changes in her. She got a job working for Juvenile Justice. Part of the job required 5 weeks of training down in Tampa. My mother & I rented a car & took her down there (we live in north florida). Her own parents wouldn't go with us, which says alot. We set her up in her hotel room, bought her groceries & rode with her in her rental car so she could get used to the traffic & the route to her training building. One week later, we went down there again. She was so scared to be down there all alone. Once we got down there, she was so happy to see me. The next few weeks went by & she felt more comfortable being down ther by herself. She bonded with some of her peers & went out to bars with them. I think that is where it all started. She got a taste of an alternate lifestyle there. After her training ended, she came back home & started work at her new job. After a while, I noticed some of the things she would say that went on at her job. From what I heard the people she worked with were baudy & crude. They drank alot & cursed. Now, she curses all the time (MF, Sh__, F_). Not the person I married at all. During that time up until november or so, we would go out to lunch together, b/c we worked in the same town then. But I could see a change in her. When our lease ran out, she started looking for new places to live that were closer to our jobs. She found them & signed the papers the next day, even though I only saw the place once. After we moved in (sept) she & her parents went out & bought furniture. I never got a chance to see what she bought until it arrived at the house. In november, she reconnected with a old highschool friend. They would start to go to lunch together a few times a week. Soon, she & I really didn't see each other for lunch. This progressed until this time last year. I felt so rejected by her. We were not intimate for the whole month of january. She said she that her period just wouldn't end & maybe she had hormone problems. Well, with that & her spending alot of time with her friend, I withdrew. When her class started, it made me withdraw further. Not only was she not going to lunch with me, she was also going out to dinner with her new class friends after their night class. So I would only see her in the mornings, evenings before bed, & on the weekends. One particular time that made me feel rejected was when I bought some concert tickets. I bought them in late december. The concert was to happen on a friday night in orlando. Well, she bought some concert tickets as well for a different event (north florida). The class started on a wednesday & her concert was that friday night. She skipped class & went off with her friend to it. She knew I had tickets for the event in orlando. She then informed me that her instructors didn't want them to miss class. If they did, they would have to write a paper for each class missed. Well, I told her to make arrangements to take a friday off to go to orlando. When it came to go, she said she couldn't b/c she can't miss a class. I thought, what is the difference between you going off with your friend on school night & going off with me. I felt rejected, which fueled my withdrawal. LAter on in feb, we bothe withdrew, she with her friends after class & me by myself. even on valentines night, she went out with her friends. One night though, after class, she came home & informed me she had made an appt to see an attorney. I said when, she said "tommorrow". I asked when did you make the appt. "I made it monday morning". I was upset. During that week, she would come home & she would talk as if nothing was going on. She didn;t want to tell me, b/c "I thought it would make you mad". I was. I let her have it. I told her I thought she was cold hearted to wait to tell me the night before, she was immature, etc. I convinced her not to go & to give counseling a try. We started counseling in mid march of last year.

Just wanted to let you know I read that, and I'm going to reply. I have to go get some groceries and run some errands. I will be thinking about your last post in Walmart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I want to reply, but can't focus enough right now with everything I need to get done. I also want to quote a couple things that I think will be helpful to you.
I'll talk to you in a little bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is the first email she sent me after bomb day. Some of the things she mentions are what I said that day. I told her she was immature, selfish & wouldn't make a good mother to (my) children. I don't remember saying 'my', but to her it makes a big deal. I later apologized for saying that. That I said it as a defensive notion.

((Hey. Just checkin on you this morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I've got to start cleaning my office and working on new supervision plans. Today is my check-in date for my kids so today will probably be crazy! I hope talking last night helped you. I slept ok, but my mind was racing throughout the night. Like I've said before, I'm at a point where I'm afraid to make a wrong step. I'm afraid if I choose to go down one road, it will be the wrong one and I'll be miserable forever. I know this is very hard on you right now, but understand, it is hard on me too. I feel a lot of pressure to answer you quickly, and I don't like being pressured. I think that's why I'm afraid that I will not choose wisely. Do know that I love you very, very much, like I never have loved anyone in my life before? Things that we share together we will never share with anyone else. I don't mean to be driving you crazy...I really don't. I guess one thing that keeps running through my mind like a bad record is what if we give it another go and try again. What if these feelings or thoughts about being alone keep on? That's not normal! Another thing that scares me is that this is the third time that we've had a breakdown like this. I hate this feeling that's going on right now with us...it makes me so nervous and scared. I hate it. I miss holding you at night and cuddling with you.
I know I keep saying this over and over but those things you said Sunday really affected me. I'm sure those were your intentions, to hurt me at the time, for hurting you, so suddenly and out of the blue. And you know how I am with words, those things stick in my head and never get out. Memory like an elephant, you once said. I guess all the things you said to me were hurtful, but most painful of all was the "mother of my children" line. You say now you didn't mean it the way you said it. I know what I heard. I mean I agree, now is not the best time to have kids in my life because I have enough crap to deal with...don't need the addition of staying up all night and cleaning diapers. That doesn't mean I don't want to do that some day and it doesn't mean that I won't be good at it. When I'm truely ready for it, I'll be the best mom around. Given our track record of arguments, I don't think that kids is a good idea. I mean, I know every couple fights, I'm not blind to that. Imagine if we would have had that argument in front of kids.
I'm scared...I guess that's the bottom line. What can we talk about that may help us that we haven't already covered? I guess you were talking about things that you had fantasized over...my thing I guess has nothing to do with you coming home and kissing all over me. Mine has to do with you just taking the lead in some things. Like, I always have to plan our little outings. I'm the one to call on the phone or make reservations. Like, I'm planning the trip for me. As stupid as it sounds, it drives me crazy when you walk off from me in stores, like when we are going to pay for stuff and you give me money and walk off. Like your ashamed of me or something. I know you said your shy and I guess my thing is I dig outgoing personalities. I mean, you are outgoing with me but the only time I've really seen you as outgoing and truly personable is when you've been drunk. I know these things sound petty and shallow, and maybe they are. I tend to be a shallow person, I'll admit that. I want you to be the country boy that you were once before. Just like I think you want me to be that little quiet meek girl that you once met and fell in love with. I'm not that girl anymore. I feel more alive than I ever have. I've finally learned to kind of come out of my shell. And I know that you feel like your finally getting your notch in life, and maybe its not that country boy that I fell for. I want you to become the person you want to be and I don't want to hold you back. The boy I love use to come in to my parents house and sit and talk. Now all he does is say hello and shoot for the back of the house to watch tv or play guitar. I know that I don't hang out all that much at your folks house but at least when I go I don't run off. I stay there and hang out or I follow you around.
I know these are all little things, but I guess these are the little things that have built up that I haven't really talked about. I hope this little bit helps. I have more things to say, and you know it is easier for me to write out my feelings than verbalize them. I will write more when you write me back. Does me writing you and telling you these things help you out? If not, let me know. It tends to help me because I can actually see what I've written and know if that's what I mean. Anyway, hope your day is going good and that talking to me helps you. Write me back and let me know.
Love you bubby,
))

Wow. That's not exactly what I would have imagined from the way you've described it!
She sounds as though she is still very emotionally connected to you. She is confused. And you are very hurt - that's why you are reacting with such strong anger.
Oh, but what to do about the changes, the process of growing up, finding yourself...becoming "different people"...it's so hard...
I wish I knew the answer. WH and I are going through the same thing. Apparantly we are not the same people who fell in love with each other. But is anybody? If that's your outlook, you'll be trading in spouses like cars. But I do see that the whole thing is exagerrated in those who marry very young or immature. Your wife was on the young side, and it seems a little immature too.
The problem is that she is moving in the wrong direction! If she wants to have kids some day, she should be working on becoming more mature, more grounded, more commited. Maybe tihs is something she has to go through first, I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if there's any escaping it. WH never went through the normal teenage rebellion, so he's doing it now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How long ago was it that she wrote that e-mail, and has her attitude changed greatly since?

Hey, I typed out a bunch of quotes from Love Must be Tough that I think would be really helpful for you. I was trying to post them in another thread because I wanted someone else to read them too, but somehow I posted them in the wrong place. Anyway, it's in the Plan A/Plan B Board under the thread, "Am I Doing the Right Thing?"
Sorry about that. Please do go there and read it though (it took me a while to type it!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

May I pose a possible explanation for the family having her to dinner?

I don't know what they have been told, but they may feel she is simply his friend. That she's a woman who is estranged from her husband.

If a member of my family told me they had a friend who was going through a rough spot, I'd have them to dinner. It's not a date, it's a family dinner, a chance to be with people who will just be hospitable to you. And yes, I'd invite a woman I thought we separated or estranged from her husband, to a birthday party on Valentine's day. Because I'd assume she'd sit at home alone on Valentine's Day and be blue, and if I can keep a person from being so lonely and miserable, I will try.

Just a possibility...

Yes, that is a possibility (the valentine's day thing), though I now see it as a slimmer possibility than I would have just a few weeks ago. I'm pretty naive (having been married since I was 18 and a virgin when I married), but I'm learning the ways of the world rather quickly these days. See, I had a guy "friend" (who had a girlfriend - also a friend) who I thought was very sweet and caring and acted very concerned about my situation. If he would have invited me somewhere so that I wasn't alone on Valentine's Day (also my 6 year wedding anniversary), I would have seen it as a friendly gesture, and probably would have (very unwisely) accepted. That's how I viewed his "concern" - that is until I realized he just wanted to sleep with me.
I have yet to figure out if that is just typical 22 year old guy behavior/thinking or if he really is the biggest two-faced jerk (besides my WH, that is.)

It is obvious from your wife's actions that she has a different future agenda from you. If she was serious about repairing the marriage she would be focused on addressing the problems in the marriage WITH you. What you need to understand is that she is trying to justify her inappropriate behaviour by magnifying everything that she perceives you did wrong. This thinking is typical of spouses who are trying to reduce feelings of guilt and justify their immoral behaviour. You can either wait and hope that the fog will lift by patiently waiting or release her from the marriage (or imaginary cage)that she feels trapped in. This Dobson approach serves 2 purposes. The first, it makes it very clear that as an adult she is free to behave like a single woman but not as your wife and second, it brings into reality the consequences of her actions. In other words, it levels the playing field. She can live her life anyway she wants but so can you. If you are going to take the D route do it in a civil, calm manner. Do not humiliate her at her work place. It will serve no purpose except make you look like an abusive husband who is out to lunch. The objective should be to take the high road and not sink to her level. By coming across calm and controlled when dealing with her it will leave a positive image in her mind and make her hopefully regret what she has been doing.

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: yosh ]</small>

First, just wanted to clarify the email I posted earlier for Faithhopelove4. That email she wrote was 3 days (Jan 20)after she dropped the bomb (Jan 17). Since then, her tone has changed alot. She no longer tells me she loves me. She can't say it over the phone either. I don't initiate it any more.
Here is what she wrote about Valentines night.

((Yes. Unfortunately, I got sick big time. I puked all over the place and passed out. Don't worry though, you don't have to worry about me drinking like that ever again. You told me if I ever did get sick like that it would teach me a lesson, and believe me, it did. I drank a couple of beers, a Smirnoff green apple drink, a shot of tequila, 3 jello shots, a margarita, ice crystals from AfterShock, and shared a couple of bottles of Pucker (really sweet drinks with flavors like peach, green apple, blue crush) with Abbie and her friend Shanna. Brian tried to get me to eat to begin with so I wouldn't be sick but I didn't listen. They had smoked deer meat, deep fried chicken, crab salad, baked beans, etc. I ate a little bit a little later on but I couldn't get my fork to pick up any food. Yeah, I was pretty messed up. Guess I was trying to drown my sorrows. Poor Abbie was messed up when we got there. We were both very sick! They said my puke was blue....gross! They took care of me though. They definitely weren't going to let me drive home. I couldn't! The last thing I remember was Brian wiping my face with a wet rag and telling me I wasn't going to throw up anymore. It took me until about 7 last night to get over my queasy stomach. I came back to the house yesterday afternoon and just laid around. We didn't finally get to sleep until 3 a.m. so I woke up pretty late yesterday at Shanna's house (that's where the party was). But yes, I made it home.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings Saturday. That was not my intentions. I had to get out and do something. I couldn't sit at home and be depressed. I do appreciate all your gifts though. Very nice. I especially like the little wood box and the body butter.
Well, my check in is today so I will go for now. Hope you have a good day.))


I don't want to come across as an abusive person. If I choose to do this plan, I will be calm about it. Soft tone, say what I have to say & leave.

I went to see our conselor the other night. He says that if she doesn't talk about the issues & doesn't make an effort to try to work things out, then I must do what I have to do. That I can't stand around in limbo wanting for her to make up her mind. That she is the one accepting invitations to go eat lunch with other people. She is the one that let this get to this point.

I also went to see our psych last night. The psych suggested that I be patient for just a while longer, that maybe the medication the W is taking will start to take effect. Just maybe then she will be able to see thru this fog. The psych could tell from the session with my W, that she doesn't know what she wants. That she feels there is a whole world out there for her. The saying "the grass is greener on the other side" applys in her case.

Good morning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
OK, thanks for explaining, it makes more sense now. I wonder why she foud it necessary to go into so much detail about her alchohol binge?
My friend (who knows WH well) says that WH was like a little boy "playing house" before. That he never was mature enough to be a husband and father, and that is surfacing now. Maybe it's the same for your WW?
WH has also become more disconnected as our separation has continued. I think rather than missing me, he's settling into his new life...

I had the weirdest dream last night - I was talking to OW (who WAS my good friend) and asking her to please just take her earrings out so WH wouldn't like her anymore! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
We argued about it, she said that she didn't want to make him not like her and I told her she was being selfish, that if she'd just be mean to him that it could save our family. What's more important our family or their friendship/ her being a "nice" person? Then I was trying to rip her earrings out!! What the heck? Just thought you might get a laugh out of that this morning... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Interesting dream. The W had a dream that was even weirder. On new years eve, she & I went to a party at one of her co-workers place. While there, we met her co-workers GF. We started talking & thru our discussion I found that she was going into a similar profession that I had. She was still in college, so I told her all about my profession & we talked about it quite a bit. My W, didn't talk at all. Later, after a few drinks (something I regret) I started to feel the effects. I started engaging in conversation with everyone, people I didn't even know. I played cards & played guitar in front of all these folks. The W was in the background the whole time being quiet. Later after drinking some more I felt sick. So I got in the W's car I tried to rest. Unfortunately the alcohol had taken its effects & I was sick. I got out of the car to get some fresh air & the W found me. After being 'sick', I tried to lighten the situation by saying something I regret now. I was asking her "how about a (sexual act)". I kept repeating it over & over, just to be funny. She said, "no, your drunk" . Well I said "well I go & find that(those) girl(s)". She laughed it off (she told me the next day) & put me back in her car. I passed out & fell asleep. I was so sick. This was the first time I was ever drunk in front of her like that. I regret it, regret it, regret it. The next day she told me what I had done. I told her I was joking & that I was very sorry for saying such things. I said that I should have said a guys name instead of "that girl", just to be funny. That I sure didn't mean to be mean or hurtful & that it won't happen again. Well, I week later, the W emails me that she had a weird dream. In the dream, me & that girl (the one I was talking to at the party) were talking to each other & the W comes in & we stop talking. We then go upstairs somewhere. The W can overhear us making fun of her for using a tanning bed to get tanned. We come back down & make the W feel unwelcome & the W leaves us. I was floored by this dream the W had. I told her later that the girl in question reminded me of a guy I knew in the way she looked in the face. I was trying to downplay this in her head, but I really meant it too, she did look like a guy I knew. Anyway, when she dropped the bomb on me, she mentioned all that again. She said that when someone is drunk they usually speak the truth. That this girl & I would make a great couple. I was shocked. I asked where did all this come from? I thougt I had explained it all on new years day, the day after the party.
Now, its the fact I passed out at the party & left her by the bonfire by herself. According to her, new years eve is a special night. Well how about valentines then?

Apparantly she feels insecure in your relationship - it's an isuue that comes up again and again in one way or another.Yes, people say and do dumb things when drunk, and yes they are things that may have crossed their minds when sober but they would never say them or act on them. Everyone thinks inappropriate things at times - often passing thoughts. The point is that you don't act on it - that's what makes you a "good person", not the thoughts you have. It's not like you would have actually wanted that to happen with that girl if you were sober.
Often people project things they do/think onto the other person. WH always questions my motives when I change for the better or do kind things, accusing me of always somehow having selfish motives. Could this be because he always has selfish motives and cannot comprehend someone doing things out of love and commitment? I think so. And possibly, something similar is going on with your WW.
I just sure do wish my WH would have chosen to go through this rebellious phase before we had kids!! (Although there wasn't much time for that I guess - part of his resentment...) Be very glad you two don't have children!!

Many people have mentioned that having kids would make it alot tougher. But, I do think having a child would have prevented her from going as far as she did. I guess my reasoning is, if she had a child at home waiting there, she would be thinking of them constantly & trying to get home to be with them. She wanted children after about 2 years of marriage. I knew she wasn't ready then. She could barely take care of herself. I think she wanted the fantasy of having children. Seeing pictures of babies in costumes really made her want one. I mean its not like a car or puppy, that you go out & buy.

I don't think she has ever been insecure about our relationship. Maybe I'm wrong. In the past, our intimate life was something to be desired for me. (I don't want to embarass myself) So unfortunately I sought comfort in the internet & videos (stuff I guess I shouldn't be looking at). She didn't like the internet stuff, but didn't mind the videos. I would keep that from her. I was ashamed. I felt she was meeting my EN for that. She never felt in the mood. I tried everything to help. Anyway I thought we were over that & she has never mentioned that lately as an issue. But with 11 pages she has written, maybe its an issue. I mean she hurt me by flirting with her classmates all last year. I felt constant rejection. She picking her friends over me.

Definitely have reply for that one, but I gotta go. I'm meeting a friend and I'm late. I'll reply when I get back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I meant to say, during the past year, she never really met my emotion needs. Affection (she says its hard for her to be affectionate..from family origin I supppose), honesty & openess (easy one to expalin there) conversation (another easy one - she has a hard time communicating her wants), & intimacy, she feels it is up to her when we can be intimate.