I feel absolutely sick to my stomach. I have the kind of feeling I haven’t had in over a year. I think I’m going stark, raving mad. At marriage counseling, 3rd session, round 4, we were talking about openness and honesty. B said he needed to know he could trust me. I agreed to be more open about my whereabouts. Note we’ve been separated almost 2 years. I also so said that I’d be much more open if we were living as man and wife. Then I said how I needed to know I could trust him.

B. wanted to know if recently he had given me any reason to distrust him. Hmmm. Well, since we’ve been separated almost 2 years, no. But there were some big issues early on.

The MC asked if we wanted to share. I let B. make that call. So, B told her he gave me herpes. She asked if he had lied about it. And he said I never asked! I did ask. I know I asked. I asked about a scab and he said he’d nicked himself. (yeah, yeah, I was stupid.) So, I said I had and he said I was wrong. It was horrible, but not so horrible as what followed.

I shared how I found out when I had my first outbreak about a week after the birth of my first. Bill said I was lying and he’d told me before. I know differently. I got my first outbreak and was sure I had gotten something horrible at the hospital. I went for my two-week check up and told the doc. But, the lesion had healed, so he said he didn’t see anything. I then told B. with relief. That’s when he told me. I remember well the discussion. I could easily forgive him for having lied in the beginning because he didn’t want to lose me, but I had a harder time putting our baby at risk. Bill just sat in MC today and said I lied. Finally, after I almost walked out, we got into memory. I could recall exactly the time and place. He just thought 4-6 weeks before the baby was born.

I’m so upset. Am I crazy? He seemed so sure. I can’t tell anyone around here because no one knows I’m going to counseling again. I think I might call the MC. I’m physically cowering. I feel destroyed and defeated.

Well, since you have been separated for so long, and this is kind of your last shot at counseling, it sounds like your opinions are being confirmed. Someone who will lie to you, then complain about your lack of trustworthiness is probably someone to get away from, IMHO.

Selective memory or rewriting history? It's a fine line. You can only base your feelings on your experience with him.

Like me, you've found many lies exposed.
It's likely he doesn't realize he's lying and actually believes what he thinks. Is that the definition of a psychopath or a narcissist????

Thank you both for replying. Newly, will you call me? I start hyperventilating when I think of this. I'm so upset. Is my reaction out of proportion? Just last night I was feeling so good about myself. If this is what is going to happen with MC, I can't do it.

Hi Anne,

I just read your post and thought I would share what I think with you. I may be totally off beam here but it's what went through my mind when I read it.

I wonder if a big part of it is that you see the historical stuff as a lot more important than he does and that he really can't remember?

You know my story - well having come "out of the fog" my memory of the things that went on, and when they happened has become very faded and I really can't remember a lot of it - because it's not important to me. Whereas because it cause my W such hurt then it's right at the front of her memory, as clear as yesterday?

Just my thoughts...

GG,

Is what happened in the past more important than what happens now and moving forward.

I spent several weeks in MC talking about the past and what happened and it got me nowhere. Maybe you would be better off if you focus on what is going to happen rather than what has happened.

WIWH

Interesting. Hmm. I wouldn't have brought it up if B. hadn't attacked me for being dishonest and not open.

My problem was more that my reality is totally at odds with his reality.

Graeme, you may be correct and it simply wasn't important enough to him to remember well. So, let's see... That's reassuring. Putting our daughter's life at risk wasn't important enough to remember. Great.

Maybe I am over reacting. I'm just having a really hard time here. The problem is a year and a half ago, in MC, B agreed with my version of hte events.

I find myself physically cowering.

Hey Anne,

I was going to post on your other thread and say "Congratulations!" then I saw this one. So first off, a big woohoo to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm really sorry you're feeling like this tonight. It makes me sad (and a little mad) that he can still have this effect on you. It may be selective memory, it may be re-writing history, but does it matter? That he can see something he did, that was so important to your child's health as 'your problem' is so very telling.

I'm not typically one to say go ahead and divorce already, but really, think about why you are doing this. Is it because you don't want to be divorced? While I can understand that sentiment, the only good reason to put yourself through the apparent trauma of counseling with him, is if you *want* to remain married to B. And not wanting to divorce, and wanting to stay married to your spouse can be two very different things, as you know.

Where is the 'taking care of Anne' in all this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I admire your courage for tackling this, and keeping your word, given that it took him so long to do anything about the counseling. But I worry about the toll it's taking on you. Especially if the inevitable end result is divorce anyway.

Maybe the thing you need to be addressing in counseling (and not with B) is why the reluctance to let go of a legal relationship that has caused you so much pain, when you have no love left for your H. What's holding you back, and how do you get past it?

I hope this post wasn't too presumptuous of me (I'll edit if you like)--I just worry hearing you 'talk' like this.

Martes

I haven't "talked" like this in years!
Martes, you weren't presumptuous at all. You have been with me for years, and know my story.

I htink I do need to talk about the reluctance to give up this relationship which is fraught with problems and challenges.

K said it's what B and I do with having completely different memories. The problem for me is that my whole reality is completely different from B's. Imagine living daily with someone who's vision of the world makes no sense to you. Imagine what it's like when you're understanding of the facts differs. It's incredibly difficult. I find myself constantly questioning my sanity. B. doesn't seem to, but he doesn't recognize that we have different realities except when he says I don't live in the "real world."

I am surprised at the physical and emotoinal trouble counseling is causing me. At the first sign of depression, I'm out of there. I refuse to live my life on ADs. There may be times when I'll be depressed again. I can't help it. It's chemical with me. But, I'm not going to allow a situation to throw off the chemical balance in my brain if I can help it.

Thanks for your input. And you're kind words.

Is it snowing? The girls and I might run up tomorrow after school.

Hey again,

No new snow this week, but most of the old stuff is still here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It's been a cold winter, to say the least. My son has worn his snow pants maybe twice--the arctic air is too much most days. This has been a great week, though. My folks are visiting this weekend--haven't seen their little grandson since Christmas.

You see Anne, it's not the 'problems and challenges' of the relationship that I see as the issue (we all have those). For starters, it's the serious damage. From his past actions, that to this day, he refuses to take any responsibility for (or try to fix). As far as he's concerned, it's all still your fault. How do you build trust from that?

But it's the future that's the real issue. Can you honestly say that you have hope for a future with him? That you want a future with him? Is there any evidence at all that he 'gets it' finally? Can you envision a happy life for yourself if you get back together with him?

If the answer to all these questions is 'no' then you do have to ask yourself why you're still hanging on. I'm not saying the answer is no, but it's okay if it is (it really is). Think of all the MBers who, in the pits of despair, and with the foggiest of WS, would actually answer yes to those questions. What does that tell you?

I think that's one of the tough things about being a true MB-er. One that believes in the principles. We know about the fog. We know about empty love banks. We know it's *possible* to fall back in love. And so we hold out hope. We hang on to the last thread. We give our spouses every chance to be what we need. And yes, we have needs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> We're supposed to have them!!!

But there comes a time (and only you are able to make that judgement), when you decide that you have to live your life based on what is real. Not what 'could be.' Because a spouse could have all the 'potential' in the world, but it won't fill your love bank. The things that he *could* do or say won't fill the love bank if he never does or says them. And without love, there can be no truly happy marriage (and no happy Anne). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Wow, I'm feeling philosophical today. I do hope the best for you, whatever you decide that is. You have to know that you have given more time, and emotional energy to this marriage than 100 average people. And if you don't know that, I'm coming by with a MB 2x4.

Martes

GG

B and the Fogman could be twins or something. I've always had a different view of almost everything. I think that years of drug use has damaged him, it's pretty sad. He is never wrong and never does anything wrong. Since that is impossible, and I'm just darn sick and tired of it, I'm outta this M.

Some people would call it abusive to not consider the other person's feelings or perceptions.

I'm sorry that the MC is going the way it is. Such a long time to be separated. The herpes thing is VERY important, so it pains me to see him so thoughtless about it! Don't you wish you had a tape recorder sometimes to prove that he REALLY did say what you KNOW he said? I keep a really good journal that has kept me going and reminds me of the struggle I am going through, so when I miss Fogman, I open my journal and read how crappy he's been for the last year, and it helps a lot. Hee Hee!

On the serious side, maybe you should give the MC more time, like set a goal for at least 10 sessions or something. It takes a while to get into the groove of MC.

Martes,

I lump past damage in with problems and challenges. I also think we're so different that we don't live in the same world at all. I know MB teaches that compatibility can be built. I think it can provided you have some to start.

I don't know if B gets it or not. He seems upset when I say how much I dread MC and how I'm scared, but I'm not sure he understands that his actions have brought that about.

The future is a problem. I think we are asking too mcuh of each other. B is asking that I not only forgive the past but forget it too. He also wants me to stop "brooding" and "stewing" over things. Amazingly enough, I don't brood or stew over anything else in my life. I don't brood or stew over small injuries if they get rectified. I do have a hard time not brooding when the same hurtful behavior continues month after month, year after year. No wonder I stopped talking to him.

I'm afraid I'll lose myself again if I allow this continue much longer. I think I'll give the counselor a call.

What?, thanks for the reply. I plan to give MC until March 1 minimum. March 1 is a dealbreaker deadline. B has to have situation X at a certain point on the road to resolution by then.

I do know MC takes a while to get into the groove. After all, I've worked with Steve by myself, Barbara with B., Steve with B., Nancy with B., Cerri alone, and now, Lorraine with B. Yep, that makes a lot of MC work. And a lot of money. Luckily, Lorraine really seems quick on the uptake and she's very firm.

My problem is if I start going off the deep end. I haven't felt this edgey and crazy since before our separation. I left when I knew I'd end up instituationalized, a suicide or a murderer. No kidding. I can't allow that to happen. Under normal circs, I'm a very gentle person.

You see Anne, I don't think MB teaches that compatability can be built. It teaches that in-love can be recovered (and sometimes built). MB is based on marriages that started out in love. It is almost based on the assumption that we knew how to fill love banks at the beginning, and we have to get back to that (and stop love-busting).

I think the reason you see people on the boards talking the other 'MB' (Myers-Briggs) so often (and Love Languages) is because incompatibility can lead to issues that Marriage Builders doesn't really directly address.

And these different realities that you and B are living in goes way past INFP/ESTJ or whatever differences. Heck, that whole situation X just proves it.

I'm glad you are staying aware and protective of your own state of mind. It's critical for many reasons, not the least of which is when a relationship sends you 'off the deep end' emotionally, that should tell you something important, don't you think? Healthy relationships contribute to our emotional well-being, they don't threaten it.

Keep us up to date, okay?
Martes

Hi GG,
My XH also totally rewrote history and totally lied the whole way through our counseling....
I can sympathize and relate..
I'm running to get kids off to school and will try to write more later.
So sorry about what you're going through. Feel free to email me
khil0401@hotmail.com
KK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by greengables:
<strong> Imagine what it's like when you're understanding of the facts differs. It's incredibly difficult. I find myself constantly questioning my sanity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you question your sanity, and not his?

AFS, I always enjoy your rare posts. Thanks for replying. I have no idea why I end up questioning my own sanity. Maybe because B. shows no signs of uncertainity or that his world is rocked.

KK, Thanks for your response.

Martes, thanks yet again.

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: greengables ]</small>

I didn't see your post to call you.
Martes gave you great insight to B and the MC.
I think you've already said what you fear most.
If you continue with MC and with B, you will lose yourself. You've done it before and see it happening now.
You are not going insane. Other people view the world far differently than we see things. And B is a projectionist. Listen to his comments and see how they reflect back on him. He is not and has not been open with you for a very long time.

We will have time together soon. And perhaps Martes can meet up with us.

Don't sell yourself short. You've done more emotional work than 90% of the people in the world, and yet you still question your instincts.
Trust yourself, as others trust your opinion.
Love, S.

Stop cowering and stand up straight!!!!!!!!

That is what he wants you to do. Knuckle under and accept his version for his own reasons.

I see so much of my X in him.

WIWH, I disagree, what happened in the past isnt just in the past if he is continuing to lie in the present.

GG, I think you made mention of legal issues previously, I dont know what they are, but has your X been diagnosed as a psychopath? or anti-social personality disorder?

Our MC told us that my X was a psychopath, and in the midst of all the pain of the counseling session it went right over my head. It wasnt until over a year later in my abnormal psych class that I learned that it was an actual medical diagnosis and fit my X to a T. Please find out if this fits you husband as THEY DONT CHANGE. They are abusive and controling and when they dont get their way they are dangerous.

My x was involved with many illegal activities from stealing RX pads from MDs offices and writing his own RX, altering ones thet were legal, actually robbing drugstores, was involved with stolen credit cards..

Get this..1 week before our wedding him and friend were confronted in SEARS for being on a spending spree and the guard made them leave the purchases and let them go. How I wish that guard hadnt let them go. I only found this out after we were in counseling the first time about 15 years after the fact.

He lies, even when confronted with the truth and tries to make you feel like you are the crazy one. This is another form of abuse.

I know you have been having a hard time with even going back, let alone facing the counseling sessions that you have been, but it's time for you to make that stand for yourself. You said before on a previous post that you finally felt like yourself again.

Please keep yourself, yourself.

Praying for you,
Dawn

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: sunrise1 ]</small>

Good points all. I think I'll have to bring a lot of this up next session. Oh, well. I feel so guilty about hurting B. Yes, I know. I just hate to hurt someone else.

One I idea I have is to just ask about situation X.

I really don't want to have another session like hte last one.