I am an animal lover so this is a very difficult issue for me.

I have a 6-yr-old yellow lab who has always been a bit too dominant. She's always sort of growled under her breath when we set her food down for her, but never acted like she would bite. She would also growl or bark at strangers if we had her in her crate, but if she was out and able to be around them, she was fine.

She bit at my XH many years ago once when he took a pig ear away from her. Chalked it up to what he did, and don't give her pig ears anymore.

Then she bit him again last summer when he was watching her for 3 days at my house while I was in Florida. Poetic justice, I decided, since he had OW in the house with him and had been forbidden to do that. And it had happened when he was messing with her food, so I figured since he was almost like a stranger to her at that point, she got possessive about her stuff.

BUT.....

Yesterday she bit my daughter on the thumb. I wasn't there to witness so I don't know what lead up to it. My DD says she was just petting Bailey, and that she growled and then bit. But my DD is also very hyper and has all the animals nervous from time to time just because of how she acts (NOT calm!). Obviously my DD isn't going to tell me if she or her boyfriend were taunting the dog in any way.

What do I do? I've gone from "let it be and see how she acts going forward" to "take the dog and have her put down now, before something bad happens."

I love this dog dearly. She's been my baby for 6 years. We've been through a lot with her. I think I'll almost die if I have to take her in if she's not sick and have her put to death.

But on the other hand, I would also be sick (or broke, possibly, if a non-family member got bit and sued me) if she did this again without warning and really hurt someone.

What would you do??
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
LL

LL,

First of all, let me say that this time I actually feel really qualified to give some help!! I have lived through some pet problems like you wouldn't believe. Mine was with cats, not dogs, and most of the problems were physical, but they ended up causing some behavioral issues that I needed to deal with too.

The first answer on something like this is always - go to your vet! Hopefully, you have a vet that you really trust and with whom you have a pretty good rappor.

Now - what to expect, what to ask, and all that kind of stuff:

First of all, what the vet says is going to depend partly on how your vet handles these kinds of issues. That's why I said I hope you have one you trust and you can talk with. The first thing they'll want to do is a general health exam just to make sure there aren't any health issues that could be causing it.

From there - it could go a lot of ways. They may want to do more testing, they may want to address it as a behavioral problem. The big thing here, though, is to get it taken care of now. If you don't, and something does happen, you could be liable, and at the very least might not have a choice about having the dog put to sleep.

My guess from what you've said, though, is a behavioral problem. The vet may recommend someone to work with the dog to train the behavior out of him. That, however, may be expensive (not that going to the vet isn't, but...) Discuss that with your vet - if money is a problem, the vet may be able to recommend some training techniques that you can do. That, of course, takes some time. I'm also wondering if some of the basic obedience classes, like they teach at PetSmart, wouldn't be an option. They help you teach your dog basic things like sitting and staying, and test it by having you walk away and making the dog sit. If I'm remembering correctly from some things I've read, the training with food issues for dogs is very similar, and I really do think that's what you'd be dealing with here.

Another thing that hopefully the vet might consider - if the dog has always been a little too aggressive, medication might be an answer, I think. I know that was one option we pursued for a while with my overly-dominant cat - still might if she doesn't straighten up again! For a while, I was giving her meds - the vet said it was basically "kitty-prozac," to kind of mellow her out a little. That may be something you need to think about too.

Whew - I hope those thought weren't too scattered for you. The bottom line is - the vet is your first stop. It sounds like the dog may have some food issues, but if food wasn't involved yesterday, it could be that they were playing too rough, it could be that they did something that startled the dog or threatened her, it could even be that she has a sore spot for some reason, and they happened to pet her on it! So the vet check really is the first thing to do.

Finally, go look for some newsgroups about dogs, dog behavior, and possibly labs in particular. There are pleny of enthusiasts out there, and some of them may also have some ideas for how to handle this if it is behavioral.

Hope that helps some!

I guess the vet would probably be the obvious place to start. She's scheduled to go back for her annual visit in April. I may move it up to March. I have a pretty good relationship with my vet, though he is darned expensive!

She actually does have some health issues. She has hip dysplasia with arthritis, though I have her on glucosamine and she seems to be doing pretty well.

I was thinking about how DD acts with her, and something else has come to mind. DD got a new kitten a few weeks ago, and this dog is rough with the kitten. I've caught DD sort of giving the dog a smack on the head more than once for what she is doing, and have explained that smacking is NOT the way to deal with a dog. Use a stern voice instead.

I wonder if when she reached to pet her, if the dog thought she was going to get thumped again?

At any rate, I might ask if there are meds that might settle her down. She could stand to be more calm.

Just glad that the first opinion I got was not to immediately put her down.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LL

I am a big animal lover too. My family has a lot of experience with animal behavior. Definitely get your dog to the vet. Can you move it up to like tomorrow? Really! When a dog is in pain, attitude will definitely change. And for a lab? That is very unusual! Has his eating pattern changed at all? I know large chested animals such as labs can susceptible to bloat. Which will cause even the most mild animal to respond to biting.

OK so there is also a dominate issue here. The dog thinks she is the boss. Really. I had to go through this with my dog that I put down in March. I went through pet behaviorist, vets, medication, you name it, I did it. My sister who used to train dolphins also had a hard time with the dog. Your dog needs to be put in its place. Seriously. You gave her the right, probably by not knowing, to give her a higher position in the family. If she wants your attention, she has to work for it. No treats until she does a command. If she comes up to and noses her way into petting her, then she is pushy and "telling" you what to do. So next time she does that, you tell her to sit before you give her any attention. Or better yet. Get up and walk away then ask her to sit then give her the attention. Don't let her knock her back end into you either. My Chessie, goldie, black lab, does this. My poor kids! But he gets corrected each time. Not punished, corrected. He just turned one on Dec 31. So still has a lot of puppy in him. But if you work with the dominance issue, I bet you her behavior will change no matter what her age is! I promise you that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh she has to respect the kids too. Teach the kids this methood too!

Ali~
The horse lover

Hi LL,

Please take this dog to the vet to see if she is in pain. Then take her for obedience training immediately. A lab is too large of a dog to be biting for any reason.

I love animals too, but how would you feel if she really hurt a child? I have some friends who had a Siberian Husky who was kind of aggressive but never bit anyone until he almost ripped their little girl's face off. You never know when a child might approach your dog. If your dog is in constant hip pain, she might just be very irritable.

Also, remember that the dog has been around your daughter for 6 years, and she should be used to your daughter. There is something else happening if she did this.

Please have someone evaluate the dog. You do not need the guilt of a serious injury on top of everything else.

With the displaysia/arthritis issue, I'm guessing that your daughter may have either hurt the dog or did something that made the dog believe it would be hurt. I've gotta tell you the obvious first. Don't let your daughter be with the dog alone. This simple rule escapes a lot of people for some reason. You also may want to check with a Tellington Touch practitioner if your vet rules out physical pain as a part of the problem. A good T-Touch practitioner can be a miracle worker. I thought the stuff was a scam until I saw it work wonders on a dog that I knew.

Keep me posted here on what happens.

Dobie

We have a 6 yr old black lab (very friendly and puppy like) and an 8 yr old yellow lab. I find the yellow one has gotten aggressive too, more so since we had our baby 22 mths ago. She has growled at him and is more aggressive when people come to the door. I think she is really stressed and she has sore ears. I've been told that when an animal is in pain their defence is to be aggressive cos they are scared. Our vet told us that the next time she growls or snaps to bang two pot lids together or to make a really loud noise right away to scare her and she will link the noise to her action. It is kinda hard to keep two lids out and around all the time since this is not an everyday occurrence though.

If she bit the baby or my teens then I would definetely find a new home for her without kids, she is a nice dog but you can see in her face that she is stressed. I ditto checking with your vet.

Marie

Hi LL,
I have some friends who are dealing with this situation. One of their dogs is agressive, always has been. They did some Dominance training years ago, where the dog LEARNS that the PERSON is their boss (feeding the dog his dinner one kibble at a time, by hand, so the dog understands who's the real boss). That worked for a long time, but they just had children. The dog has gotten worse and bit several people (incuding me!).

The vet put him on a 'doggie prozak' and started the training, again. It's helped!! They were so worried they'd have to get rid of the pooch.

I bet the vet can help you. Best of luck - Dru

Tomorrow I"m taking the new kitten in for an assessment. Though I can't get the dog in (they're squeezing me in with the kitten because it has a bad eye--long story--DD felt sorry for it and we "adopted"). Kitten physically can't wait so dog will have to for a little while.

But the vet I'm seeing for the kitten is the same guy I see for the dog, so I'll discuss with him tomorrow.

I'm not so afraid of my DD being in the same house as the dog by herself because she's as big as I am (she's 15) and quite a bit stronger. But she's avoiding being around the dog or petting right now at my recommendation.

I do wonder if the changes in our house over the last year and then e new kitten and all have rather p*ssed off the dog and she's trying to assert herself.

(As for bloat, she's eating and acting fine, so I'm not concerned about that.)

She does a lot of the things you mention, such as butting her nose against me or pushing me out of the way to get my attention and to get me to pet her. Or when I'm petting the other dog, she'll push in between us. And both dogs sleep in my bed. That should perhaps stop for a while.

Because we have a large privacy-fenced back yard, I virtually never walk the dogs, so the chances of them being around a small child are pretty much nil. But they are around a lot of DD's teen friends. That is more the issue.

LL

And you mentioned that DD has swatted the dog on top of the head to stop her from growling at the kitten. That could definitely be a part of the problem. You're absolutely right - if she went to pet him, he could already be conditioned that that particular motion on her part means a swat on the head, and he may have been responding to that.

And most animals do not like a lot of change in the household, and adding a new kitten can definitely unsettle an existing pet. Another good thing to do in this case is to make sure the dog gets some individual attention. It may even be a good idea, if it's possible, to separate the two for a while, and then re-introduce them slowly, with supervised visits. Believe me, I understand that might not be a real easy suggestion, but it is something to consider.

Giving the extra attention, though, combined with the suggestions I saw above about re-conditioning her as to who's the boss, sounds like a good thing to try for now, at least until you can get her into the vet. Those are things that, at the very least, won't make the situation any worse in the meantime, and could make it better.

Oh, and one final suggestion. One of the things that might help, if there is any "jealousy" issues going on related to the new cat, is to make sure that the dog feels she is still first. When you feed them, put her food down first. When you get home, talk to her first, and pet her some, before you even pay attention to the kitten at all. It isn't like with kids in this particular case - since animals are territorial, and do develop a pecking order, you actually need to play favorites with them. So, you need to make sure that she knows you are "head dog", but that she still ranks higher than the new kitten.

Is all that related to the biting issue? Who knows. It's a matter of elimination to figure out the problem, and it may not be any one thing causing it. It could be all the factors coming together at the same time proved to be more than the dog could handle.

Hi LL

Good idea. She thinks she is the alpha in the house. So consistance is the thing here.
She may probably feel that the kitten is a threat to her position in the house. But you need to stop giving her the attention when she asks for it. You need to pet her pet her on YOUR terms. But not on hers. After a lot of hard work, she will realize that she is the submissive on in the house. And you will see happy behavior. But again consistance is very important.

Good luck and keep me posted.

Ali~

You know, this topic isn't that off-topic after all. I mean, isn't that what MB is about? Re-conditioning, not by punishing bad behavior but by rewarding good behavior, and changing the environment so that the WS is comfortable being non-WS again?

I'll tell you what happened with a dog I had. My then 2 year old son was on the sofa as was the dog. I looked in to see my son standing near the dog, not on top of, not touching, not being hyper, just standing. The dog reached up & bit my son in the face. He needed a plastic surgeon to stich him up & he still has a small scar.

The dog was always fine with people but hated other animals, particularly other, smaller dogs. Perhaps he saw my son as a smaller, vulnerable being & bit. The bite was more of a warning, considering the dog was a big 90 pounder, it could have been much worse, but the dog had to go.

The more I read, the more I see how Bailey thinks she is queen of the castle, and being a bit dominant and agressive, I think the changes have set her off.

I thought of yet another change that has taken place over the past month that might have her nerves on edge.

We had new neighbors move in. They have a dog.

Up until now, the neighbors on that side had no pets. The neighbors on the other side have what I call a little yip-dog, because that's all it does when it's out. Bailey barks back at it, but she's used to it, and they can't get near each other because it's on a lead so can't get to our fence.

The new neighbors' dog is an Alaskan eskimo dog, so it's big, and since their yard is fenced and we share a common fence on that side, the two dogs can basically come nose to nose and breathe on each other through the privacy fence. Problem is, they don't breathe, they bark a lot.
I don't let her stay out of the other dog is there, but still I know that's just one more thing that's bugging her, because she is trying to guard her territory.

Yes, she most definitely is the alpha. My XH was the in-charge when he was here. I never really got myself into that spot (again, there are those boundary problems I have). But I can see that's what I need to do.

LL

Over the summer my children and I read a book called I, Jack by Patricia Finney. It's all written from the viewpoint of a male yellow Lab (except for a few notes written by some cats). It's hysterical and might help you think like the dog.

Been there done that - twice. I've been training dogs for 30 years, returned one dog to its breeder (a mistake - should have put him down), and put another one down, both for serious aggression (probably rage syndrome in both cases). BUT neither of these dogs behaved as you describe your dog. I believe, as do my vets, that both of these two dogs had rage syndrome.

When a dog warns with a growl, the dog is in control of her faculties. She is not acting out of rage syndrome and the fact she is willing to warn is a GOOD THING. This also bodes well for treatment.

Did she break skin? This is important! If not, I would bet she is not trying to hurt anyone, and has good bite inhibition. This is a good sign for treating aggression. Dogs that don't warn, or don't have bite inhibition, in my opinion, are loaded cannons. You need to assess the danger - and an initial way to do this is by whether the dog warns and has bite inhibition. (Bite inhibition means when the dog bites, it chooses to not cause real harm. My dog that did NOT have bite inhibition would bite right through your whole hand and send you to the emergency room.)

My young border collie started growing at me this week over food. I stopped it immediately. He would not have bit me - he was trying to see if he could make me back off when he was eating. NOT. Instead he lost his meal temporarily. I then gave it back, and petted him while he ate. He tried it once more this week, and so far that is all. However, periodically I will make sure I can talk to him, pet him, and even put my hand in his dish while he eats. CAUTION: I would NOT do the latter if I didn't know the dog well enough to know he is totally deferrential to me and would not really bite. I know I can stop the growling verbally in a soft voice even - and he will stop. The only time he has ever displayed this behavior before was for nail trimming (border collies are notorius for hating nail trimming.)

BUT I also started his training at 8 weeks when I taught him it was unacceptable to touch my skin with his teeth, that I was the boss, and I hand fed him every meal until he was about 6 months old. He had to earn his food, and he had to take it from my hand gently. He also got treats with me first taking hold of his collar, and then giving him the treat - this teaches that being constrained while eating is not a bad thing (among other things). This is how I train ALL puppies - my own, and how I teach my human students to train their puppies at our dog club.

I know my dog is testing the waters. When a dog does this - and gets success (meaning the person backs off and the dog wins) the dog learns this method works. Then the behavior can escalate. This may be what your dog is doing. It is easy to stop in little pups, or small breed dogs, or dogs that are extremely deferrential. It is harder - and can be dangerous - in older dogs, larger dogs, and dominant dogs. BUT read on - it can be fixed in many cases.

Are there any animal behaviorists in your area? Most of the time, this type of "aggression" is treatable. But you may not be able to self diagnose or self treat. We have some good behaviorists at the University of MN - one in particular who is an expert on this problem: Petra Mertens. Monday Nov 14 there is a seminar here (sponsored by Petra) by Jean Donaldson who is an expert in behavior. I don't know anything more about it than the date, but am planning to go. Jean has written some very good books as well.

If you want to talk some more, you could call me or E-Mail privately. Just give me your E-Mail and I'll contact you.

Yes, one of her teeth broke the skin on the underside of my daughter's thumb. Other than that, it just left some light brusing along the thumb.

Granted, she could have bit a LOT harder. She can totally destroy a cow hoof chew in a matter of a few minutes. Nylabones are the only things that last any time at all.

I think you're right, that her growls have worked with food and stuff, and so she's continued to push for control. Little by little, gotta' get that back.

I did feed her several pieces of her morning meal by hand this morning. She did it without growling or lurching for the food or any agression.

She's never tried to bite me.

Anyway...off to the vet with the kitten shortly, so will see what he has to say.

LL

Okay...consulted with the vet:

He wasn't pleased to hear about the biting, but I told him about the new kitten we have, and the new dog in the next yard, and about my daughter thumping the dog on the head with her hand when she growled at the kitten.

The vet, who knows my dog is dominant, said her world has been upset.

I am supposed to treat this as a one-time incident (not count the bite to my XH because it was different circumstances) and work with my daughter on treatment of the dog, and work with the dog on reminding her who is boss.

If she shows signs of agression again, the next step will be doggy antidepressants.

LL

make sure you get the upper hand with her quickly.

Probably in the most danger is the kitten. If the kitten wanders close when the dog is eatting it could be disater of the worst kind.

Maybe late now, but get working on your dog with the food issue. I have started all my puppies at home with me in charge. Everyone in my family was able to take the dog food bowl away, or even take pieces of food out of the bowl with no complaint whatsoever from the dog.

I had a dog when I was a teen who chomped on one of my cats kittens who had wandered too close while he was eating. Kitten died from broken neck. I was devastated.

Dogs are usually sociable. They like to be part of a pack, and in my house, the pack is my kids, me, and 3 cats. They get along really well

ll,

read your ? on GQII. Thought I would take a look over here, cause I know this is your main board right now.

Anyhoo, I thought long and hard before I replied.

FYI:

I was attacked by a dog, half lab, half english setter when I was four years old.

The dog tore half my face off. 350 stitches, and plastic surgery 12 years later. I was 4 years old ll.

Nevertheless, I think you should realize that you have boundary issues.

I am a Christian, like you. But forgiveness does not mean letting everyone and everything (ie: your dog) run all OVER you.

This dog needs some very clear boundaries.

Maybe if you start with the dog, it will all come to you. Don't mean or want this to be a 2x4, but hey, I really really suffered from the dog bite. Oh and I did not tease this dog, I was playing a childrens game with other children, and perhaps the dog attacked me because of the excitement. I do not remember. I only remember what my family has told me. It was so awful that my mind has blocked it. I do love dogs. My parents got me a siberian husky immediatley. I am so blessed. However. . . .

Think about this.

Boundaries, LL.

Love in Christ,
Miss M