catnip,<P>Thank you for responding.<P>I am interested in your perspective of an unfit woman (the aforementioned "whore")who has the OC. If she gets married, what's the likelihood that her husband will be any more fit than she? By getting married, this woman will be no more fit than she was before. Basically, she's a bad person who probably married another of the same ilk. The child will not be in an improved situation. If he or she knows that her real father abandoned him or her at birth, the real father will be to blame. In fact, the real father will bear at least half the blame, with the mother bearing the other half.<P>My real life scenario about a married OW who has a child during an affair still is not answered. Maybe I haven't been clear about this scenario in my previous posts. Here goes again. If a married woman bears her lover's child and wishes to stay married to her husband, should she give up this child for the good of the marriage? Consider the following points as made on this bulletin board:<P>1. The husband will have a constant reminder of the affair when he sees the features of another man mixed with his wife's in the OC.<P>2. The OC's real father desires to maintain a parent-child relationship, without contact with the mother.<P>3. The real father is in a profession and has the financial ability and love necessary to nurture this child.<P>To preserve the marriage, since it takes priority over the child, should the mother either give the child to the father or, along with the father's consent, find a good couple for an adoption? The discourse on this bulletin board would support one of these two options, I believe.<P>Again, your thoughts are appreciated. Thank you!<p>[This message has been edited by WJC (edited June 04, 2000).]

You know what? The OW doesn't always want the fathers involvement. I know in our case, the OW has made it nearly impossible at this point to have any involvement in the childs life. I think she is scorned that my H did not leave me and now she is angry that she is now a mother with no husband. When we were friends, she spoke of unwed mothers negatively. She also had plans of finishing college, moving out on her own, etc. etc. Now that she has a child, I am sure she feels many of her dreams are out of reach, and she blames my H for that. At the time she found out she was pregnant she was sure that my H and her were going to marry, and she was going to have this picture perfect life. My H told me recently that the OW also talked of them getting married and getting custody of our daughter!! I think the move to get pregnant was done on purpose in her eyes. At the time she was living with my sister-in-law, and my sister-in-law informed me that after OW moved out (once the whole affair became public knowledge) that she found her BC for the two months prior to her getting pregnant, unused.... <P>I do not place all the blame on OW, but quite a bit of it she deserves. Now she is "getting back" at us by using the child. She's mad at H for not being a part of her life, so she is going to do all she can to keep the OC away from him. Many of the others on this board have stated the same...that the OW wants the H to have nothing to do with the OC, just the financial compensation that comes to her. Yes, it is sad for the OC that life has been handed to s/he this way. It is also sad that many times the main parent in their life uses them to "get back at" the other parent. So, my point is, it is not always the H who does not put the child "first"!<p>[This message has been edited by tryingtomoveforward (edited June 04, 2000).]

tryingtomoveforward,<P>Your point is an excellent one. There are times that the OW refuses to allow the other parent access to the child. It sounds like this is the case for your husband. Of course, in this situation, the burden is on the OW, not your husband, for his not being involved.<P>Has your husband petitioned for any type of custody? It would seem to be a fairly straightforward case. She cannot legally keep the child's father away after the court grants custody--at least partial custody. It would take some of the OW's spiteful behavior out of the picture. If she doesn't play by the rules, your husband could possibly be granted physical custody.<P>Again, excellent point.

WJC, If this is a real life scenario, then it would appear to me that it depends on the people involved.<BR>1. Does the Husband have the "Love"/ability to overlook the fact that the child is not his biologically. Can he accept it as "theirs" and raise it with love? It would seem that if he truly wants his marriage to work he would make the effort.<P>2. Is the biological father willing to give up his child under these circumstances?<P>3. If none of the above are acceptable, is shared custody something they can do?<P>Personally, I wanted to become involved with my H's OC, because I was concerned that the OW was not able to be a good mother. My H did want to pursue this. Said the child was hers, felt she betrayed him by getting Pg. Also felt that because the OC lived in another state, that it would be better not to have him popping in and out. Of course that was while OC was a baby. Now that she is school-age, things could change. But I am not sure he wants to do anything different. The OW does nothing to promote a relationship. She has mentioned sending pictures but they have never come. Anytime I have reached out to her, she rejects me, wants to hear from him. As of last year she was "still in love with him". She expressed concerns that God would not accept her in Heaven because she was still in love with a married man. <BR>So we pay child support, and help with medical bills. I wonder when the OC will contact him wanting to meet her father. <BR>That's my 2cents worth. TG

WJC,<BR>Are you living in the real world or some ideal abstraction? May I ask what your REAL situation is?? <P>One, unless the custodial mother can be PROVEN to be majorly abusing or neglecting the child, the father is not likely to get frequent contact with a young child, particularly if he's long distance(!) as we are, or the mother is angry at him, or he hasn't had much contact, or whatever. The courts aren't as interested in "fathers' rights" as fathers' paychecks! Even with father 'visitation' rights, the mother and her friends/family are very likely to be the child's main influence, for better or worse. Custdy disputes get ugly fast and in my opinion are NOT in the child's best interests. In a case where the quality of the mothering is marginal, the risk of causing more harm by fighting over it must be weighed again the minimal benefit of what will probably be minimal visitation anyway. Without physical custody of my H's OC, I don't think we can do much to help her emotionally. The best we can do is "first, do no harm."<P>Second, Babstr referred to the OC coming to the absent parent with their resentment/anger years later and that not affecting the family; and you said "that speaks to their character(or lack thereof) as a parent." I totally disagree! There are many reasons (including adoption) for a bioparent to have to give up contact or have minimal contact with a child, and it does not necessarily mean they have no feelings as a parent! They usually sincerely wish that child the best. In the cases of infidelity we're discussing, why SHOULD it disrupt a family who already knew of the child and is basically healed, years down the road? The OC is intitled to any feelings he or she wants to have, but they are THEIR feelings, not the family's. I think the absent parent owes the OC an apology for screwing up, and an explanation of what it is to be caught "between a rock and a hard place". This is much more similar in my mind to giving a child up for adoption, because frankly it's not legal for a man in this country to have TWO families! It is a brave and unusual family who can live in the same town with the XOP and civily co-parent the OC, with everyone maintaining healthy boundaries. I applaud them!!<P>Finally, I don't know why you are so interested in a reply to this cheating woman situation which no one here seems to have, including you. In my opinion, either the (cheating) woman and her husband should raise the child as their own as wonderful K and others are doing, with no involvement by XOM, or the child should be offered for adoption to another couple, unless the XOM is also married, stable, both want child, etc. There will be cases where a marriage simply cannot survive the trauma of infidelity, in which case any biochildren can be offered whatever emotional support the bioparents can give without Joint Policy of Agreement with a spouse.

WJC, in reference to the original question in Jenny's thread, how did all of the members of your party work out the custody/visitation/financial aspects of your child outside of marriage? How is your wife dealing with the situation? <BR>your children with her? Your OC?

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply as well, I'm a Mon - Fri puter user. <P>CD: No, I said I had child before marriage, she had OC 4 weeks ago.<P>I like what WJC and Delphi were/ are TRYING to get answered yet everyone seems to be dodging the question. They offer vague possiblities yet no answers.<P>This is a real life situation, mine, my W had an affair and four weeks ago she had the OM's child, correction, my child with OM donating sperm <P>According to most of the people on this board I could have and would have had a right to ask me wife to give up this child for our marriage, correct? Jenny? babstr? catnip? What would happen if I was low enough to demand that my wife give up this baby? That is what alot here believe and preach.<P>I'll tell you what would happen, we would be in court fighting for custody of our other three boys. She would ask for a divorce before letting go of one of her kids, and I wouldn't blame her. What kind of person would I be to ask her to do this in the first place?<P>I'll tell you this, I knew before this baby was born that if I could not accept him, that the problem was within me. Not the baby, not my wife, he is innocent and she had asked for forgiveness. So the problem (if there is one) would lie with me. Fortunately the Lord has given me the heart to love my new son. I will raise him as my own, for as much as he is a part of my wife, he is a part of me. Refer back to the Bible, 'become one flesh' and 'what God has joined let no man put asunder'<P>One last comment:<BR>"M't:1:19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.<BR>M't:1:20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."<P>I never said Jesus was an OC born of adultery, to me other children are just that, other children. Children born from someone other than your spouse, previous marriage or whatever. They are children 'other' than those you share with your spouse. God forbid, but if I ever got divorced and remarried then my boys would be OC's to my new wife. That's my view at least. My point with Jesus was that Joseph was afraid, quoted it above, but he still did the best that he could. He knew the child was not his, just as biologically my son is not mine, but God charged him to raise Jesus and he did, as I feel God has charged me, and I will.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited June 05, 2000).]

Paul,<BR>I didn't think anyone was referring to you, specifically, since you have already agreed (Policies of Honest and Joint Agreement) to raise the OC. I have the utmost respect for you, for K, and any other men who are repairing your marriage and accepting the OC as your son/daughter. My absolutely sincere congradulations!! I think it is intuitive to us all, (or deeply rooted in our culture), to think of the mother-child bond as very primary. It deserves due consideration and marks you a mature and loving man. <P>Put back into the discussion I originally posted(!), what if visitation with the adulterous father would interfer with that mother-child bond? Are you saying my H should fight for custody or "visitation" of an OC-toddler despite the fact we live far away and that child would probably cry and scream for her mother if we brought her here??? If not, do you expect us to spend thousands of dollars we can't afford to send our family to visit OC?? (Shall we use our kids' college funds or what?!)<P>Also, these women seem to be saying that both bioparents should have a relationship to the child irregardless of anyone's marriage! In which case, ladies, are you advocating for the XOM to have a relationship to Other Children which Paul, K and others are raising as their own???? <P>STABILITY for the OC, (not to mention the adults), ought to be more important than blood relationships.<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 05, 2000).]

First of all, I NEVER said that the woman should give up her child for the sake of the marriage. But I too believe that the mother child bond is stronger and more prevalent in the first years especially. I know that fact in my daily life. If I left my H my daughter would come with me, she is closer to me, and it would destroy her to live with her father. Granted he has been in her life daily, but I am a stay at home mom, and I have raised her, with his help. <P>Second, I made reference to my personal story stating how non involvement can be better for the child. The question on this string was in regards to that. If you look at the beginning it was in regards to contact with the OC mainly the fathers. I didn't answer your questions in regards to a mother, because frankly I have no frame of reference. I don't ususally write in regards to subjects that I have no clue, thus that is why I know for a fact that I never commented on that. <P>I only know the view from a father's involvement. I truly believe that the children benefit from non involvement, my child, and the OC. I have the utmost respect for those men who can accept and raise a child that is not a "blood" child. Why, because like I said my dad is not my "blood" father. So I even have more respect for them, because that is who raised me. I also agree that no court is going to remove a child from its mother. There are biological reasons, I breastfed my child for a year, thus she could never be away from me. I guess if the man could not get past that the child is not his, and that happens. Then the mother would have to choose between her husband and her child. And I truly believe that is a different decision than the father. I am closer to my child, and I personally don't think I could choose between my husband and my child. That is my personal opinion, not one that other people should make decisions on.<P>I am rambling. Just wanted to clarify, that I do not have a straight answer opinion to a adulterous mother, versus the marriage.<P>babstr.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jenny:<P>Put back into the discussion I originally posted(!), what if visitation with the adulterous father would interfer with that mother-child bond? <P><BR>Personally I am not concerned with interfering with the mother-child bond, mainly because I do not see it as any more important than that of a father-child bond. Every situation is different. In your case contact with the OC would be difficult, for the OC as well as you. If having contact with OC is not detrimental to the OC then I do not see why one spouse would be so objectionable as long as it's done in an agreed fashion.<P>Where you and Dr J would have to travel great distances or the OC would have to travel then these situations become detrimental and possibly should be delayed until the age of the child makes it more of a possibility. I am not saying that your H should play an active role in the OC's life, but if he chooses to, then what would it hurt? (outside of financials)<P>Again, every situation is different, long distance OC's are the hardest to maintain a relationship with and the easiest to understand the need for limited contact. But for those that are across town and the only reason for no contact is the complaining of one spouse or the other...(may sound a little callous, sorry) If a couple is to stay together then they must grow together. And together they must decide what to do about OC. One should not demand tons of contact while the other demands no contact. There should be a middle.<P>So far OM has not decided to raise his head in my case and I am thankful. It does make it easier. We learn and grow each day. It's what we say and do with that knowledge that makes us who we are.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Thank you for your thoughts on this emotional subject. <P>The OW with whom I had a relationship is a rather emotionally unstable woman, who has a knack for theatrics and fabricating stories to suit her purposes. Her husband is no winner either. The general consensus in town is that he would rather have his wife and the “baggage” than be on his own with a monthly alimony and child support bill for his kids. (Those are the thoughts of others, not mine alone.) Since she had no ambition or ability to make it on her own, she had no choice but to return to her husband after our breakup. It’s where she belongs anyway. The fact is she’s a conniver who can’t keep her hands off of men, and this won’t be her last affair. Her claims of Christianity are a mockery. <P>My wife and children are wonderful. Obviously, I took them for granted. After all, I reasoned, this other woman truly appreciated me. I risked the love of my wife and kids for a shallow taker. I accept my failings in this regard, and I take my share of the blame. The OW has taken to hiding behind her Christianity, while spreading lies profusely to rebuild her “reputation.” I don’t think she even realizes that outside her small circle of friends who believe anything she says, there is a community who sees her for what she is—a man chaser who cares more about herself than anyone else. In fact, one of her nicknames is “the psycho-b**ch.” (That’s one originated by the ladies. I have learned through this experience that women are harder on other women.)<P>How does my family, including my wife, view the situation? My wife feels bad for my child, and has accepted the fact that I have a responsibility. For the following reasons, in addition to what was told above, we consider our home to be a better place for this child:<P>1. We can provide a more financially secure, stable and—yes—loving home.<BR>2. My wife would be a far superior mother to this baby than the OW. Her integrity and selfless way of life would make for an excellent role model. Her total honesty blows me away.<BR>3. This child has siblings who want to be involved. Probably through their mother’s example, they empathize with the child who, in their eyes, is living with the “evil woman” whole stole their daddy. (BTW, I have explained to the kids that Daddy was just as wrong and is sorry, but they have been letting me off easy.)<BR>4. The child is living in an area where everyone knows about the circumstances of her conception and birth. We would be willing and able to move out of the area where the child would not have to deal with any questions.<P>Considering these reasons and my responsibility, it would be wrong to throw up my hands and walk away. The time and cost is worth it all. So, yes, I’m living in the real world, not some ideal abstraction. I will do whatever it takes—within the bounds of the law, of course—to have frequent contact with my child. The child has not witnessed any of the court proceeding, so that’s not an issue.<P>I also maintain wholeheartedly that to do nothing does reflect on the person's “character (or lack thereof) as a parent." Adoption is an obvious expression of parental love, in many instances, because the child will be raised in a good, stable home away from the stigma of the circumstances. My child does not have that benefit in the current environment with her mother and the mother’s husband.<P>Jenny, it's not legal for a man in this country to have two wives—but over ½ of the adult population in this country do have two families due to divorce and remarriage and kids in these marriages. It’s a way of life in this day and age. Sad but true. People accept it now. <P>I disagree that the adulterous woman and her husband should raise the child as their own. Importantly, Paul hit the nail on the head by disagreeing with the unfortunate notion that the mother-child bond is “very primary” or stronger. That belief has done immeasurable damage to the equal worth of fathers to their children. It has made it expected and acceptable for men to walk away from their children—except for the support. Now that single parent mothers and their kids are speaking up about the negatives of not having a father around, the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way. Preconceived ideas about roles men and women play in the family and the workplace have evolved. We can argue all day about the pros and cons of the pre-60’s traditional family, but it’s irrelevant to the fact that a father can be just as nurturing as a mother, if given the time. As roles reverse and the responsibility for caring for children continues to even out, the “mommy myth” will fade. That cannot be a bad thing.<P>Sure, K and some others have a relatively easy time raising an OC precisely because there is no involvement by the XOM. Life goes on as it was before. However, court battles and money going to the attorneys is a strain when custody is an issue. Running out of state or the country to avoid custody arrangements (as I’ve heard some advocate on this board) is not only ridiculous, but also not so great of an experience for a child. <P>Paul, I commend you for your approach toward the OM if he would show interest in being a part of the child’s life. It’s refreshing to hear that perspective on this board from someone who is in that position. The tenor of the board oftentimes treats the OM as a heartless person who is using the child to regain a relationship with the OW. The battle cry is to keep this person away from the baby, and if that doesn’t work, make the guy “pay through the nose” (a Harley quote). To recklessly adhere to such attitudes is unChristian and, well, low brow. I think it is ludicrous to think that a guy would pay child support and continue to spend time with the child—without the supposed benefit of seeing that “ideal” woman—for very long. If not sincerely interested in the child, the guy will go away. Problem solved; true intentions revealed for all to see.<P>Emotions get easily charged on this topic, regardless of the perspective. Your opinions are much appreciated.<BR>

WJC,<BR>First, my sincere apologies to you for assuming you were a wife. That really confused things for me. It is MUCH more clear with the info you provided; wish I'd had it sooner.<P>I have many questions for you: how old is the child now? Yes, you are describing dysfuncitonal people, but what kind of PARENTS are the mother and her H? (Being promiscuous and having a loveless marriage alone are not important to parenting in the eyes of a court.) What are you doing to heal the dysfunction in your own marriage? How does your wife feel about you pursuing the OC? Are you acting with policies of honesty and joint agreement in your own marriage?<P>Rereading your post, I'm thinking the XOW must still be pregnant. You asked wouldn't it be better if the XOW gave the OC to you and your wife or gave it up for adoption rather than raise it in the dysfunctional home you describe. YES! That sounds better! However, you can't make the XOW do this!! Many of us have complained the same thing. The fact is the XOW gets to decide. You can certainly offer, but she's not likely to give it up.<P>Couple thoughts for you. One, since the XOW was married and staying married, her husband is usually considered the LEGAL father of the child. I don't know what rights if any you have as the biodad; maybe K, Paul or others can provide info? <P>Also, I Disagree that taking the parents into court has no impact on the child. A child does not have to be present in the courtroom to feel the tension, anger, or chaos in the home that this causes, or to hear the nasty names they might be calling you without any thought to how that will affect the child's well-being. Immature adults have a tendency to do that: act out without regard to the child. And having visitation marks the child different from the siblings in the home and disrupts their family life.<P>In my opinion it is very difficult for a non-custodial adult, biological or no, to give a child a belief system different from the one in which he/she is growing up in. IF I'm right(which is still in question), then you are only adding dysfunction on top of dysfunction. I discussed this with my H who said basically: "He[WJC] needs to accept living with the reprocussions of screwing up." You did, after all, sleep with a married woman! H said you have a duty to be available to the child if the child wants you, or the parents lose custody due to abuse/neglect, but you ought to stay out of their marriage and not keep the upheaval alive. <P>You asked for opinions and got one; I'm sorry it's not what you want to hear. I appreciate the pain you feel for your OC. I see it and feel it in my H, the guilt, shame, and pain of screwing up so badly it cannot be fixed. That's what this is, WJC: so bad it cannot be fixed. Mourning and grieving for this for whatever time you need is appropriate. I hope you are getting some professional counseling for this.<P>Sincerely and with best wishes to you and your family,<BR>Jenny <p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited June 06, 2000).]

WJC<P>I agree with much of what you say in theory. Some of your points are exactly the ones I have made and are the reasons why I find this such a personally difficult situation to live in.<P>But, it's not all that cut and dried. We are dealing with real people and real situations. Yes, it is unfortunate the a child can't have two loving parents, but if one of the parents KNEW the situation ahead of time and still went ahead with having the child, you certainly can't put the burden of that situation on the one who didn't want to stay. It seems to me that one who decided to have and keep a child under those circumstances is the more responsible one. That one is the selfish one who needs to respond to why the child has only one parent.<P>There are many many people who don't have children, or gave their children up for adoption, because they believed they were making a responsible choice. THAT is commendable. When people knowingly have children under less than ideal circumstances and expect the world to support and love them, that is simply awful and immature.<P>When there is an OC, each couple has to decide what is most important to them. Some betrayeds are not going to deal with it under any circumstances. Some will pay, but not be involved. Some will integrate the OC into their lives. This is not a cut and dried situation where everyone must follow the same rules. Everyone's life, tolerance, and values are different. <P>Not every situation is going to be traumatic for the child. I'd even go so far as to say that some OCs are better off NOT having contact with their bio parents if it means they will have a loving, stable step-parent or if it means they will avoid ugly, emotionally horrid situations with the step-parent.<P>I would love for all children to be loved and cared for in a two parent family. That is not going to happen. We have situations like this. They are emotionally wrenching for all who are involved. Your judgmental, blanket statements are not helping people come to peace with their own situations. Most of the people here are looking for support, not condemnation for not supporting your views. <P>Children are innocent and should be made a priority, but the time for making that commitment is BEFORE the child is born. Once a mistake is made, we just do the best we can with what we have.

Jenny,<P>Thank you for responding and for your honest opinion.<P>My child is two. You are right--as a mother, the OW wants to be 100% in charge of the child. It's apparently an ego thing combined with the desire to have no accountability to someone else over how well the child is cared for. She is a control freak, basically. Also, when she moves on to her next relationship, it'll be tougher to explain how such a "good Christian lady" has two fathers to deal with. My wife, along with a few associates at work, are semi-seriously taking bets on how the OW will explain it and how long it will take before she can land her next guy. <P>So far, the long process of custody hearings and appeals is still going on. To date, I have won these hearings, but the appeals continue. Probably it's half of the strategy--appeal and drag it out long enough for the non-custodial parent to lose interest. I think that the success thus far is a combination of the law being on my side and the court seeking to do right by a father who is going the extra mile to take care of his child. The court sees enough cases where the opposite is true. Also the court has been doing well to date seeing through the OW's and her husband's lies, which doesn't help her cause, I would imagine. <P>The biological/legal father issue was settled early on in the court process, and it was a key hurdle to cross. After dealing with the appeals on that issue, the custody issue continued and i still in the appeal stage. My wife and I are optimistic, given our success so far.<P>My marriage seems fine at this point. The real issue for my wife is not so much the baby but the OW. She is comfortable that there is no interest on my part in pursuing any further relationship with her. I am confident myself about not falling for her again. Pardon the venacular, but she would have been a pain in the butt to live with, now that her dysfunctions are out in the open. To put it another way--she was a high maintenance, low value partner.<P>My wife accepts my pursuit of my child as something I need to do for my own good and the child's. We don't follow the policies of honesty and joint agreement in a formal sense; however, we are totally honest with each other. We both acknowledge that we admire each other very much and are devoted to each other, though there is not real passion or mutual interests (except for our own children). We don't have any significant disagreements or fights. We aren't cold to each other and do care above all about the other's happiness.<P>Counseling over the past two years has been a so-so experience. We both think that it would have been very worthwhile for couples who could not get along at all and needed to work toward a common ground. It didn't hurt either. The counseling by our pastor was helpful in our accepting that we can manage our situation well together, and there is not a sufficient reason to go our separate ways. (The 'burbs and access to what the city has to offer have been a real bonus for our quality of life.) His advice in the end was the most practical in our situation.<P>I do appreciate your points on visitation and the dysfunction it may cause. The OC's mother, if she chooses to go the partial custody route rather than giving up custody, will be the determiner of what dysfunction will result. If she does indeed love this child, she will do what she can to accept the arrangement and make it as workable as possible. She would also find that, unless there is evidence of abuse, my wife and I won't be disrupting whatever family life might exist.<P>In line with what your husband said, I realize that I am "living with the repurcussions of screwing up." You're right--I did sleep with a married woman. Equally true, however, is that the OW slept with a married man. You probably have surmised by reading my previous post that I'm not a strong advocate of defaulting to the mother as the best parent. I take a case by case approach toward considering which, if either parent, can provide the best total environment. In this case, the married man can provide a better home, with both love and financial stability. If the child has that benefit part of the time, I sincerely believe it will be better than none at all. <P>Regarding staying out of the OW's marriage, my wife and I will do so. That relationship is between them. The decision that they both<BR>made to stay together was with the full knowledge that sharing custody would be a very likely part of the marriage. It was an outcome that they apparently determined was workable and that they could live with. My wife and I made the same decision. After all, half the families in this country are in much the same type of arrangement and survive well. Faith in God and indefatigable pursuit of what is right are a dynamite formula for success.<P>I apologize for another long post. Thank you again for your wisdom. It is good to hear what others have to say. I also wish the best for you and your family.<P>WJC<BR>

popeye,<P>Thank you for your thoughts on this issue. I appreciate them, as I do Jenny's.<P>I wholeheartedly agree that this is not an entirely cut and dried issue. There are certainly circumstances that preclude the involvement of both parents, as you mentioned. I have acknowledged such circumstances in my posts. Perhaps, that hasn't been as clear.<P>Still, there has to be a recognition of the existence of responsibility. The subject at hand is a child who was conceived by two persons having consensual sex. What happens after that is a defining point. Responsibility is accepted or is not. Walking away while providing financial support might be the best decision if one parent has much to offer the child. Adoption to a good family is as responsible and selfless as one could get in this type of situation. <P>My problem is with those who just walk away without trying. I have heard some say the OW doesn't accept money. Well, what stops that person from setting money aside for the child for the future? Some say the OW won't permit visits. Has there been any attempt via the courts to establish visitation? If the court says "no" to the other parent, then what else can be done? At that point, the parent must accept the decision of the court and move on, but be available to the child when he or she is old enough to have contact. The OC, whether or not raised in a good environment, will admire you for what you tried to do. They will be secure in the knowledge that they were not just abandoned by "the guy who slept with Mom and knocked her up."<P>Reading the aforementioned possible approaches, some will roll their eyes, and exclaim, "C'mon--get real!" The initiative to do something--anything--is outweighed by some other survival instinct or emotion. You are absolutely right--"Everyone's life, tolerance, and values are different." What they do as individuals will be decided accordingly.<P>I apologize to you if my statements seem judgmental. They are not intended in that spirit. Given the drift, however, of most of the discussion on this bulletin board(much of which could be confused as judgmental), it was necessary to add balance to the position advocating relationships with other children. <P>Again, popeye, thank you for you well-considered input.<P>WJC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WJC:<BR><B>My problem is with those who just walk away without trying. I have heard some say the OW doesn't accept money. Well, what stops that person from setting money aside for the child for the future? Some say the OW won't permit visits. Has there been any attempt via the courts to establish visitation? If the court says "no" to the other parent, then what else can be done? At that point, the parent must accept the decision of the court and move on, but be available to the child when he or she is old enough to have contact. The OC, whether or not raised in a good environment, will admire you for what you tried to do. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with the first statement, but who's judgment call is it as to whether the parent "tried" enough or not?<P>In my experience, if there is so much animosity between the parents, it is in the best interest of the child for one of them to step aside. THAT might look like not trying enough to some.<P>In my experience, my H got custody of my daughter (first marriage) because I was young and poor and couldn't fight it. He lied in court, plain and simple. He thought that I couldn't leave my daughter, so if he got her, I would stay. He was wrong, but he made my life hell for as long as he could. Yes, we went to court, over and over, but ultimately it just made things worse.<P>I felt the same as you said, the child will admire you for what you tried to do, but that was not the case. The child wasn't ever told the truth. She was allowed to believe that I abandoned her and that she was the cause for the divorce. So what do I do now? Slaughter her father by telling her the truth so her vision of him is now destroyed?<P>I had court ordered visitation, but do you think that meant anything? Oh, you are so naive! <P>My H was a very immature man (and still is). Every time I initiated contact, it was always followed by some evil deed. He mellowed out in between contacts. He married soon after we divorced. Had I known that my daughter was alright with the new wife and that the ex-H was calm in between contacts, I probably would have left them alone so as to lessen the horror in my daughter's life. All I knew was I wanted to see her, so I pursued. And each attempt, whether successful or not, made her life worse. <P>Now, there are a lot of people who would say that I did not try enough in the early years. I dare them to walk a mile in my shoes and deal with the late night harassing phone calls, stalking, and death threats. <P>Anyway, my point is, you don't know what someone else's situation is. People can sit in judgment and say this or that about how other people treat their kids. In some cases, it may truly be neglectful, but in others it may be what they feel is more humane under the circumstances. When there are vicious battles going on or undermining of familial relationships, I don't think it is in the best interest of the child to live under those circumstances. <P>Sometimes we leave our children alone because we feel it is the best thing for them. Sometimes it is the best thing for us. Sometimes it is the best thing for everyone, but it is up to us to make the decision. <P>It's very great of you to have a way of integrating your child into your life. Congratulations, but that doesn't make you the spokesperson for all OCs. That doesn't make your situation the blueprint for all others.<P>In my opinion, the first and biggest mistake was when the decision was made to either carry the baby to term or keep it. That is a decision the parents to be SHOULD make together. If one makes it without the other's consent, in my opinion, it is NOT the responsibility of the other parent to just fold over and go with it. I don't consider "I don't want a child with you. I am married." to be a situation of walking away without trying.<P>Just my two cents.

Popeye: As far as walking in your shoes...I have. I've done / doinf the court thing. The visitation. The hatred, the lies, I've been there. When do I think it will be over between my daughter's mother and me? When my daughter is old enough to se the truth for what it is. Question is, when is that? Who knows. But I feel I must keep my presence with her so that when that time comes she'll know she can come to me if she chooses.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul,<P> I'm sorry I misunderstood you. Thanks for the correction.<P>WJC,<P> You mentioned a reason why the H should be willing to let go of OC. You said he would be constantly reminded of EA looking at mixture of features from OM and his wife. My question (in love) is have you reversed this for your situation? Have you considered that your wife would have this same constant reminder if the OC were in your home? I believe God can get anyone above this. He did it for me. (Our OC is with us every other weekend.) I just wondered if you truly considered your wife's feelings.<P>