We are getting ready for our next visit to see Precious. H is making flight and hotel reservations. I am getting excited (yes I know that I am mentally twisted) to see Precious again. It has been five months. She really is an outlet for all my blocked maternal instincts.<P>First of all, OW has started calling again. H has spoken to her twice and just let her leave messages a couple of other times. I don't think that it is possible that there will be visitation and that there will never be any contact between them. Mr. Job tells me about any phone call between them or any message that she has left. That is good enough for me.<P>She is going out of (her) town on Tuesday and is leaving OC with her mother. ex-OW was angry to learn that we aren't coming out until Thursday. <P>OW: "You need to spend more time with your daughter. Why don't you come out on Tuesday?"<P>Mr. Job: "Mrs. Job can't take that much time off of work right now. We'll come on Thursday."<P>OW: "Why don't you come by yourself."<P>Mr. Job: "This is something that Mrs. Job and I are going to do together."<P>OW: "This is ridiculous. I'll send her my flight plans as proof that I will be out of town."<P>Mr. Job: "I don't think it would be fair of me to ask her to stay alone for those couple of days while I am visiting my daughter and then to have to fly out alone to join . I want us to come together."<P>OW: gumble, grumble, temper tantrum "OK, well I got back on Saturday night. I don't know how we are going to handle Sunday because I don't want to have to see Mrs. Job. You'll just have to come get Precious by yourself."<P>Mr. Job: "We have talked about this before ex-OW. That isn't going to work. Why don't you think about it for a couple of days and see if you can come up with a different arrangement?"<P>ex-OW: "That's just the way it has got to be."<P>Mr. Job: "Well that would be a real shame if you are going to be difficult and prevent us from seeing Precious on Sunday. Maybe we will just take an earlier flight home on Sunday and skip that day's visitation." <P>Yeah, way to go Mr. Job; put that responsibility right back where it belongs--on ex-OW's petty shoulders. She needs to learn that if she is going to be difficult we will not be manipulated into caving in. If she is difficult, her daughter suffers and that is not our fault. It is time for her to act like a grown up and put her child's interests first. That conversation went on a couple of weeks ago.<P>A couple of days ago I said that I could probably take an extra day or two off and we could go out on Tuesday. He said that no, he thought just a couple of days would be enough.<P>I said that I wouldn't mind some extra time with the baby. It had been months and I missed her, that I was looking forward to seeing her. He said that he wasn't and that worried him. He was nervous about the visit and felt pretty ambivilent about going at all. <P>I told him I don't look at Precious and see his affair. He says that he does and he doesn't want OC to come between us.<P>Boy did he get lots of hugs and kisses for that.<P>We talked a bit about that I think he has got another year or so to decide for himself if he wants to continue visitation. I think that if he makes the decision to withdraw from visitation before she is 3 or so, that the child will not suffer any ill effects. I also told him that he has the right to make his own decision about this and he shouldn't let me, his mother or ex-OW pressure him into taking visitation if he doesn't want to. On Dday I told him he had an emotional, moral obligation to visit OC. I wish I hadn't said that. It was unfair of me (and his mother) to make that decision for him. I think that he prefers that we not visit but I think that in the long run he will decide for visitation for the benefit of OC because he is a pleaser. He often puts others' needs before his. Well, that's not quite it, but he is a person who feels pressured to do what is best for others rather than what is best for him. That sounds pretty funny to say about a guy that had an affair, huh?<P>I am so glad that we are a united front to ex-OW. Our needs as a couple are coming before her needs as his ex-lover. It shows that he is growing beyond the guilt that he felt and that she was so good at triggering in him.<P>Love to all,<BR>MJ

WOW!! I loved this. I hope some day I can report a similar experience. Thanks for sharing it :}

Good job MR. JOB!!!!!! I'm so happy you and your H are doing so great in showing a united front Mrs. J.!<P>Visits now with us are out of the question as the constant drama from ow is more than I can take. I just snapped one day after she left a message as to how good he looks!(We taped it).<P>It's not about the baby it's about a continued relationship w/H! She showed that clearer than ever!<P>If H should ever change his mind and THINK she's changing for the better and "let's try" visits again.....Poof! I'm gone. I just swallowed more than I can take to this point and have given enough.<P>You read how we're going to buy Christmas and birthday gifts so if child comes when he's older we'll give them to him letting him know we DID visit once but his Mom made things hard to continue visits. We have photos of that visit too.<P>Prayers to you Mrs. J.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Debi,<P>I think that the gifts are a great idea. You can show that OC was on your mind throughout the years. It really is a shame when ex-OW puts herself in front of the needs of her child. And to think that we (BSs) keep getting accused of being selfish by the marauding bands of OW who visit our site every once in a while! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I think that there would be more visitation if OWs could behave themselves.<P>Stay strong.<P>MJ

I loved your post until the part where you say he may decide not see OC after he already has had visitation. A child bonds very early. Quick story - i know someone whose wife had an affair and got P. Husband found out and they separated but decided to work toward saving the marriage. The OC and the woman's H bonded big time! That was his Dad as far as the boy was concerned. A few months shy of his 3rd b-day, the woman snagged the baby away and went back to the other man, denying her H access to the child. He went to court and was awarded partial custody. In the eyes of the court and all the expert witnesses who testified, a child DOES bond very early on. To begin visitation and then take it away is tramatic for the child and the child will feel abandoned. If your H doesn't intend to be a father for good, why is he toying around with this child. If he's not committed to being a good Dad, I feel he should leave the child alone, starting now. A child isn't a TOY. I;m glad things between you are good, but I don't think he should get to decide whether or not he wants to be a Dad at his own child's expense.

BonnieB,<BR>I generally agree about the importance of bonding and relationships (I agree with your example!), but I do NOT agree re: Mrs. Job's case... You don't have all the facts.<P>Mrs J's OC is under 18mo I think, lives over 1,000 miles away and rarely sees her biofather. Mrs. Job you can correct me but I doubt there is a close bond between Precious and Mr. Job at this time. I think he did the right thing to establish to the XOW that she may NOT come between Mr and Mrs Job ever again--period. The couple will visit the OC together or not at all!! The marriage must come first or the relationship will not survive. <P>Good for you guys Mrs. Job!! united front indeed

MJ,<P>I just wanted to say I'm glad all is going well with you and H. So far my H as actions have been the same as your H. Unfortunatly exOW lives 15 min away from us so he will get a strong bond with oc, I hope it never drives a rift between us.<P><BR>Unsure

MrsJ,<P>give MrJ a huge pat on the back from me and a big sloppy kiss from you. I think he is doing a wonderful job! Maybe ya'll should go on tues...maybe a little extra time will help him decide what he wants to do.<P>BBB,<P>I generally agree with you in the situation you described. It sounds as if H and W were raising OM's child right. That means H was there all the time...well if course a 3 yr old knows who is there on a constant day to day basis. That was wrong of W...totally am with you on that! But recall in Mr and Mrs Job's case they are far away and we are talking about their second visit. Is it fair to say that they are jepordizing the child be visiting? I have a really good friend who lives in Florida who we lived with when my daughter was 1. They came to visit us last Halloween for a few days. Are we to say that if they dont come every other weekend or at least once a month then we should never allow them to come and visit with us and our daughter. I will add they spend a lot of time with my D when they come as they have a little girl who is almost the same age. They are jepordizing my D and should decide NOW if they will continue to see us and my D? Well they are probably moving to Indiana in the next 5 years so we wont see much of them at all. If we dont and we dont see them again until my D is 18 yrs old..have they scarred her somehow?<P>Just a point to ponder....<P>Love<BR>bw

BonnieBB,<P>No one can predict the future and we cannot predict whether ex-OW is going to be able to control her behavior and stop trying to destroy our marriage. If she cannot control her behavior, visitation will not be able to continue. Yes, OC would suffer and that would be the fault of <B>her mother</B> and <B>her</B> inability to put her bitterness behind her and <B>act like an adult</B>. <P>I too am greatly concerned for children. I understand all about bonding being damn near an expert in bonding and adoption. Bonding is something that takes place with daily or near daily contact. You *do not* bond to your Great Uncle Noah that you see every Christmas and Easter. This will be our third visit to OC. She is now 14 months old. One could hardly claim that there is a bond on the child's part. The very best that we will ever be able to do in this child's life is 3, 4, or 5 visits a year. We are willing to do that and happy to do that *if* it does not jeopardize our marriage. <P>The child in your story lived with that man for about three years. Of course the child suffered all kinds of grief and loss when he was suddenlty ripped out of his life. <P>BBB, I find myself furious over what you wrote. Your use of the word "toying" was the most infuriating thing I think I have ever read in my life. "Toying" implies viciousness that is not and never has been present in our attempts to work out a relationship between the adults and the child involved in this situation. If anyone has been "toying" with someone else it is certainly the OW who continues to place herself above the best interests of her child.<P>I would appreciate an apology from you please.<P>MJ<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Job (edited August 27, 2001).]

First of all, Mrs.Job, I want to say this is all-around great news. I think that you told your husband he had a moral obligation from the beginning because you just did not foresee all the hassles down the road with OW being such a dingbat... (Oh well, God loves dingbats too...) Anyway, what you said, you thought was the right thing for you as a couple at that time but have since learned otherwise. You have been there, & done that, and now it's time to shift gears and perhaps move in another direction. OW is making it unbearable for your H to deal with and it's not his fault because he tried to do the right thing from day one.<P>BBB may not have actually been accusing you personally of toying with OCs life, because obviously that was not your intention. Your noble intentions are quite obvious when reading your entire post and keeping it all in context. <P>I can't think of anybody *I* know who remembers any details of their lives prior to age FOUR--can you???? I certainly cannot tell you who in the world I "bonded" with when I was a baby OR a toddler for that matter?!<P>I think it's God's mercy that people don't remember the formative years when parents are trying to figure things out, actually!!! Unfortunately some parents take much too long to figure things out, hopefully, the OW in your case will wake up before it's too late and move the heck on with her life as well as the life she created for her child.

Dear Mrs. Job,<P>Just wanted to add my support of you and H in the<BR>difficult choices we all have to make in this situation.<P>As all the caring members of this forum know...you are<BR>willing and capable of loving the other child. It isn't<BR>your fault that the child's mother can not accept what<BR>is in the PAST and move forward with her life FOR her child.<P>It's clear from all your posts that from day one you have<BR>been more than graceful...<P>Good luck with your visit! Give her lots of hugs!<BR>Best wishes for your adoption appeal, prayers too.<BR>Love, fluke

Hi ladies,<P>Thanks for all the loving words of support. They mean a lot and helped over a very, very hard weekend. I went away with four generations of my family (just the girls, no boys invited.) One sister came with her 12-year-old daughter, the other came with her 1-year-old daughter.<P>I gave away some of Anna's things for the first time. We had been told by our adoption agency to get ready to travel to bring our children home. I had been working on Anna's nursery and of course bought clothes. You have to bring clothes for your new children when you travel to Russia to pick them up. So, since the adoption is pretty much dead (at least the adoption of the baby girl, now two-years-old, I decided to try to start giving away some of her things to people who can use them. I gave some toys and clothes to my sister for her to use with her little girl.<P>Suddenly I was filled with an anger and pain that I didn't know I still had in me. Suddenly I couldn't stop hating anyone who had children. Suddenly I was furious about how easy pregnancy is for so many women. So easy that it happens on accident and we have abortions for a solution. Look how hard it is for us to become parents. It seemed everyone had children and I am alone. Even my H has an accidental child from a relationship he had no business enetering. I feel like I am back at Dday again in terms of pain, anger and lack of control over my life. Our counselor says this is good that we have to pass through the pain of losing the children before we can move on to become parents to different children. I have cried almost all weekend. Previous to this I hadn't cried in months! I thought I had everything in complete control (control is a big thing for me). Counselor also said that grief isn't fair; it hides and then pounces on us when we least expect it. <P>Binthere,<P>Thank you especially for the words of support. I did take Bonnie's comments as a personal attack and here's what I particularly objected to:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>If your H doesn't intend to be a father for good, why is he toying around with this child. If he's not committed to being a good Dad, I feel he should leave the child alone, starting now. A child isn't a TOY. I;m glad things between you are good, but I don't think he should get to decide whether or not he wants to be a Dad at his own child's expense.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She did accuse him of "toying" which in my mind is the same as saying "using" or "manipulating." By speaking of my husband and his actions in this she is in fact talking about me and my actions since we are acting in a united, concerted effort to deal with the situation of his child and ex-OW.<P>Oh yeah Binthere, I have memories from as early as age 2 years 5 months old. I remember multiple surgeries due to my birth defect. I remember the names of some of the children I met while hospitalized. I remember being taken in the elevator up to surgery, my grandparents visitin me at the hospital. I remember conversations (that adults confirm). I remember my 3rd birthday party, who attended and these memories are just because I have seen pictures although they may have helped to keep the memory alive. Always thought it strange that my memories start so young.<P>Thanks again,<P>Mrs. Job<P>PS I cleaned up my dirty language in my original post. That type of swearing is not normal for me and is mostly a sympton of what a hard weekend I had and how furious I was at Bonnie. Apologies to all.<P>

Excuse me Mrs Job. But I am not going to apologize for not agreeing with you. Your H is that child's father. And if he wanted he could fight for partial custody. Partial custody is NOT for or five times a year. He has rights as the father and no amount of BS from the OW will change that. If he wants the child in his life badly enough, he will. If he doesn't know, and he plans to just see the child on and off until the child is three, I think he is doing a major injustice to the child and should just stay away. And I am damn near an expert on bonding and adoption too!

And by the way, I have MANY memories from very early on. My father left when I was a few months shy of three and I remember him living at home very well. The child I spoke of in my example also remembers his father well. That's why he was put on the stand and told the judge himself. I am not saying that a few visits will create a huge bond, but if you're not trying to create a bond, what's the point of being in the child's life. And if a bond IS created and then taken away, yes it WOULD be devastating to the child and he/she will feel abandoned. Your H may have all the best intentions but in my opinion a child's life isn't something to get involved with lightly. Whether HE thinks it right for him is irrelevant. It should be what's right for the child he created. It just seems like why bother if it's just going to be a few visits a year until he decides if he wants to continue or not.

Thank you for your opinion Bonnie. I will continue to make the decisions that I feel are best for my family.

Mrs. Job,<BR>Amen. My hat's off to you and your dignity. And I'm sorry for your grief for Anna; a lost adoption hurts no less than any lost child. <P>Godbless,<BR>J (where's that flyspray?)

Mrs Job,<BR>Get bb the hell outta here! It very much matters what the father thinks!! If he doesn't think too much the child will pick it up! Geeze some people!!!<P>Too bad for our little boy. His Mom made things so bad we are better off w/o him in our lives for now!! He can't remember what his mother wouldn't allow him to have!!!!!<P><BR>god bless you and anna.<P><BR>love and prayers<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear Mrs. Job,<BR>Amazing re: your memories from babyhood! I think my life was so traumatic that God decided I should have no recollection of those early years. My parents were very young and fought a lot and wound up divorced by the time I was 2... My earliest childhood memories begin at age 4... I guess everyone is different.<P>Good for you Mrs.Job not to allow certain opinions to upset you further. This topic is a delicate, extremely personal issue. We can't afford to get into it (arguments) here. <BR>This place is for support for those of us who are trying to save our marriages, and that is the bottom line! We are all here because our spouses dropped a bomb on us, like someone already mentioned in another forum... It's true. My H said I was verbally abusive so I was looking into how I could change that about myself and found Harley's website. How would arguing on this forum help ME????? NOT! We should follow the Harley way and do no LoveBusting here!<P>Run-ins with difficult OW are enough drama for a lifetime. Still, great news I'm reading here Mrs. Job, and I did consider what you said after I posted. Two married people are one flesh in God's eyes. Thanks for saying that... I agree.