I did not want to break into Stacia Lee's thread which I agreed with completely. We are all hurting in some way.

But, one of the most important MB principles is not to LB. For me, and I think many on this board, I have not shared this secret with anyone. I do not have family or friends that I can talk to. And, some of my feelings are too harsh to discuss with my H.

My feelings are harsh not because I am a bad person. But, because I am a shattered person and the lack of control I feel sometimes makes me just want to speak out the horrible things on my mind as a catharsis to cleanse my spirit.

That's what I thought a support group is supposed to be. It is a group of people who understand that even though you are saying some pretty rough things, your objective is the same as theirs -- to save your marriage.

I don't see a problem with people having their own views. Where I see the problem is that a very small group of individuals have decided to take every person to task when they don't LIKE that person's view. If you don't like what was said, and it was not said directly to you -- THEN MOVE ON -- DON'T ANSWER.

I am a grown woman and I am dealing with my situation in my own way. It is not helpful to me or anyone else to be told that when I am furious at something the ex-OW does I should be polite and not call her an obnoxious cow. Now, I certainly know she is not a cow. (although sometimes she is truly obnoxious) But, if it relieves some of the pressure so that I don't make that horrid comment to my H then I feel MB has achieved its objectives.

Am I wrong? If we all have to choose our words carefully, and not say anything that might upset someone then I guarantee you this Board will be blank. You have no idea the types of things that can upset people.

Someone got offended at the use of "sperm donor" (I think it was). Others get upset when it is said that an OW got pregnant to trap the MM. You may not think that it is right for a man to "abandon" his child, but right or wrong it happens every day. As long as it is not your H, then what do you care? And, I am sorry, many, many OWs get pregnant on purpose. If yours didn't good for you, but again, who cares?

I am infertile. It is not always pleasant for me to listen to the stories of all the women who are pregnant. But, they have a right to be happy and I have a right to be jealous. So what?

I think we should all be free to be ourselves and we should ignore those who make critical comments.

Marie

Go head girl! not saying you are not a women just a figure of speech. I respect your honesty my kind of person I agree with 100% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When you want to lash out e-mail me we can lash out together.

<small>[ March 27, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

Marie,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My hat is off to you! Bravo! Very well put! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your story and mine are very similar. I, too, have had to deal with infertility and the fact that my H has a child outside our marriage.

Hugs to you! Glad you came out of just lurking status to share your story with us.
May you find all the support you need.

marieluvsrich,

You are absolutely correct.
This board was made for BS to come to and say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> *&^%* *&^#!@** %%^*&^ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> without having to worry about being told we are bad people for feeling that way.
If you or anyone else needs to come here and vent PLEASE do.
If the OW hanging around here don't like what they read they can pack up and move to their own site.

jtigger

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

i agree! if you want to come on this board and call the ow in your situation an 'obnoxious cow' (i like that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), you should be able to. it doesn't mean that you think all the former ow on this board are evil incarnate. i think the problem is when a former ow on this board decides to take it personally because they are dealing with a psycho bw and then they project their anger with that bw onto you.

i don't know about you other bw's, but i don't think that all the former ow on this board are evil incarnate. i have come to like and respect some of them very much. and not all of us bw are psychotic.

yes, we will disagree. we are dealing with different situations and see things from different perspectives. but hurling accusations at each other simply based on what we are personally dealing with is not ok.

again, this is just my opinion! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey Mariel,

I personally don't care what you call the exOW. I think the more names, the better and the funnier the better. We used to have fun on this board. We had posts about what animal your OW reminded you of, evil greeting cards you could send, etc. It was fun and it helped blow off steam. Mine reminded me of a deer trapped in my headlights. Slim, elegant, beautiful but a little dopey and frozen in fear. I personally was the big Mac truck that was going to mow her down. Actually, my style if life is more like a brick wall. I have my position staked out and know where my boundaries are. You can charge at me but it is highly likely that you are the one who is going to get hurt because I stand firm. (My kids aren't so crazy about this as a parenting style, but they'll get used to it. :-) I had more than my fair share of anger in the beginning. I now feel a bit ashamed that I was talking so callously about destroying another human being but given the circumstances, I have decided to forgive myself.

I also harbored hideous, murderous thoughts about the OC for the first couple of weeks. Infertility combined with an affair and an OC is a horrible double whammy. If exOW ever knew what I had thought about the child in those first couple of weeks, she would never let me near her, even though I have changed. I am glad the only one I ever told about them was my mother--who was shocked speechless by this display of rage in her normally even-tempered daughter. Heck, I don't know what exOW would do if she knew that my H fervently hoped for a miscarriage. The God-honest truth is that all children are blessings to the people who love them, but not all children are wanted.

The only time I have objected to name calling is when a few have referred to the OC as a "[censored]." Being a [censored] child myself, I find it very offensive and I don't think it is fair to blast any of our anger in the direction of an innocent child. (Yes, I had plenty of anger, but I directed it away from her to a safe place and I soon got over it.)

So, as far as I am concerned, welcome to the board and blast that woman out of the water.

MJ

When someone is venting about their situation specifically I do not recall where that has caused too many raised hairs around here. The problems begin with name calling and confrontations.
Getting preg. due to failed bc was my comment on twilight's thread and I was confronted as a liar/excuse maker specifically. When I posted my pov about the respect for eachother being a combined and necessary effort on this board, I was assaulted verbally in a manner which is not in line with the mb guidelines. It is difficult to offer support soemtimes because even when done is a loving and caring manner, as seen on LJ's threads, we still get needled because we are supporting a bs who is considering visitation. We're seen as biased because we have children by MM. In some respects of course I'm biased as we all are. We have ALL been through a hell all our own or else we would not be here.
There is an inherent lack of respect by many but not all, for those posters who fall into the fws/fow catagory. There really is no denying that.

hey I am guilty, I refer to mm's wife as the old sea hag, and so does most who know both of us, including her husband... has been a running joke for years now at work and in our private lives.. it relieves stress when we have to deal with her we smile make nice and no matter how ugly or rude she is, we are nice... so knock your selves out, it keeps me from taking my anger out on her, when she does stupid things that effect my child... yes my child not hers... I am polite and cordial to her and her child[which is not mm's] HOW EVER HER DAUGHTER IS RUDE AND AN UGLY PERSON, THIS AGREED ON BY ME, MY HUSBAND AND MM.

Doesnt matter what I am called, but I do get upset when children are reffered to as semen samples, [censored] and nothings... because children are a blessing from God, all children. and deserve to be treated as such.

Do I think this of all BS's no of course not. so vent away, when I refer to mm's wife in a bad way, dont be offended please, I am not directing my post at you and all the bs's here. Just venting so I dont pick up the phone and lose my temper.

Now all this aside, those who have contact, no matter what side you are on if you care at all about that baby, you will treat all parties with respect in there presence or in front of the child in question. It is so important to the well being of that child to do so . Because you see the child loves all the parties involved, even mm;s wife, she doesnt know her as well, and it is a different kind of love, but none the less she should be treated with respect.
such as his wifes b day, all his kids forgot, hers forgot, guess who remembered, I did and sent a gift from my daughter to her. she cried seems she has a heart after all.. she called and thanked me and told me she new I didnt have to do that for child and appreciated it. Now it meant absolutely nothing to me, but if my chld is going to know them and be in there life, no matter how little or how much, she should learn love and respect for them no matter what I think and feel.
Now this drama is years old and we still deal with things now and again, so that is why I am not a sad apologetic ws who is begging for forgiveness, we have long since been through that for those who dont know. I originally came her hoping there would be others who had a civil relationship with the oc, and dealing with the spouse of mm and learned to get along and do a good job parenting and sharing with out worrying so much, I was scared to death, how ever the one person who made me see I needed to be a little more generous with visit was wib and she was chased away from here. But she had a successful visitation with om and was a married spouse. I also have learned alot about things from tina on here she has been a true inspiration and made me see some things a different way.

But the most support I have recieved has been from cm, and that is because she and i know and understand every aspect of what happened and why and know what things feel like from this side of the picture, just as I have been a bs, I have never been one with a child in the mix.. so I have learned from that.. But sometimes things are said not to vent out loud but to attack those here because you are pissed at the world and we represent what you are so angry about, and we all have bad days, and we all say things we shouldnt , I know I have.

I say vent away, I havent stopped, although I do take breaks from it ever so often.

We are all different people, differentlives, and feelings. WE can not base each situation on one idea, because it isnt true.
There have got to be women who get pregnant on purpose, and men who get someone pregnant on purpose. There are also failed bc. There have to be crazy wives and crazy ow. There has to be people who work it out well, and people who do poorly.
There are those who can work it out maturely and those who can not.
Those who really care and love the oc and those who dont.
There are good mothers and bad mothers, some are married and some are not.
There are good fathers and bad fathers, some married some not. Just life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

so welcome to marriage builders. I am done rambling.

M05,

I think sometimes you get hammered because people associate you with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sorry about that!
Its true. In spite of the heat, you have been a wonderful source of support and inspiration to me since day one. We can relate to eachtoher because of our unique experiences with H & MM and marriage overall; different yet alike.
Its funny, reading your post today reminded me of a time when I was venting here, to you, about my xom, and I got blasted. BS's came to his defense. Who would have figured? I thought he would have fallen into the same junk pile as an ow but he was identified with as a ws. It may have been some were having a really bad day or maybe just that we are all human and tend to identify with situations that remind us of our own.

CM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think "monkeyho" was the funniest name I ever read that referred to someone's xOW! lol!

[censored] is kind of hurtful to me tho, because I have one!

Just like years ago when I was a teenager, we called people who didn't know how to dance "spastic" and now that one of my kids has a condition known as "spasticity" it has shed a different light on a name that I once thought was funny!

What is said on these boards tho, ya can't take it too personal, even tho it deals with very personal issues.

The purpose of this support board is directly associated with the Basic Concepts provided on this website, or that's what *I* think it is for--to help us get back to the basics of Marriage Building: Policy of Joint Agreement, Rules of Care and Protection, Radical Honesty, no Love Busting, fill Emotional Needs...

If we are not doing these things or working toward them, then I don't see any other reason for being here?

All of us have busy lives nevertheless, we take time to come here--to give support.

I agree with most of you. I don't come here to argue with viewpoints of ow, ex ow or whatever, my focus is to vent with others who share similar experiences with me, that is why I stay away from many heated discussions..anyway, hope you all are having a great day!

monkeyho..haha that's my thought for the day...oh and welcome mariel!!!

Take Care,
Butterfly

marie: hi, i like your post and noticed a couple of things.

Marriagebuilder boards have this common problem. Because every person who posts anywhere (on recovery, on general questions, on just found out, etc) is an INDIVIDUAL with thoughts, feelings, wounded hearts, betrayed marriages, oc's, and other hosts and varied issues it's bound to happen that someone gets offended.

I agree with your suggestion...if you don't like a posting, or the particular writing of some people, MOVE ON and don't get sucked into a negative debate.

I can tell you one person said once about one of my posts that I was a bit too God oriented and preachy....well, that's okay. I'm not offended by that. Those are my beliefs and it's my thoughts as I write.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If we all have to choose our words carefully, and not say anything that might upset someone then I guarantee you this Board will be blank. You have no idea the types of things that can upset people.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know for me that sometimes I get offended at 'generalities'. Some people have mentioned racial issues which I would prefer they didn't however I know I will not change their mind with my viewpoint. I think the wonderful ladies who have contact and raise their oc's get might be offended at some 'sperm' comments and I think that those who do not have contact would be offended if someone said their husband's 'abandoned' their child.

I have learned many things on this board. Sometimes I use it as a 'journal' and hope that someone will have a thought to further inspire my thinking. I other times use it for questions at a certain place along my recovery that I'm stuck in. I also use it to see how others live with or don't live with contact/no contact. I have also made a few friends and it's nice to have people of similar minds you can share with.

I agree with you Marie, I don't have anyone in my family or H's family that I share with so I use this board. I do not post every joy, every heartache, every court appearance, every argument, or many other EVERY's.... I use it when I want to for things affecting me at the moment.

Hugs to you! Take caer

Angelia

Hello all,

I have just been lurking lately and really haven't had much to add. I did want to say though mo5 & cm do give me a different point of view that makes me think about some of my chooses and they have been very helpful to me. I might not agree with everything but who does and they were very kind in my thread regarding oc. I thank them for that because I realize they do have insight I do not have yet or was not ready to see. I have received a lot of help from everyone on this sight and I thank God that he brought me here.

Update on me, I still struggle but I don't cry as much any more. H and I talk but I don't need to hear from him every day and I don't feel as lost. But I take baby steps every day and I am surviving. LJ

Marie:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a group of people who understand that even though you are saying some pretty rough things, your objective is the same as theirs -- to save your marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely. This place is here to help people work on their marriages. And in particular, BTDT's assessment is really how I feel about this

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The purpose of this support board is directly associated with the Basic Concepts provided on this website, or that's what *I* think it is for--to help us get back to the basics of Marriage Building: Policy of Joint Agreement, Rules of Care and Protection, Radical Honesty, no Love Busting, fill Emotional Needs...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue that is often of concern is how much "venting" gets done. Occasional lapses of politically-correct speech are OK by me (I dabble in the area myself at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). But and complete and utter disagreement with jtigger, I don't think this board was set up for:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS to come to and say *&^%* *&^#!@** %%^*&^ without having to worry about being told we are bad people for feeling that way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was set up for people in this particular set of circumstances, as a "safe" haven to discuss these special issues. But I've counseled with Steve Harley for quite a while, and it's not his style or policy to have people moan, complain, and vent. Because it doesn't help. He'd ask you "what do you want?" and "what are your options?". For those of you who have counseled with him, you'll know that he'll listen to you vent, but then the focus becomes what can you do, and how do you get there. All positively motivated. Venting just promotes lovebusting at home---it's very hard to separate the two.

I know that some don't feel it's "safe" anymore---and that's too bad. There's no place for trolls coming here and spouting off stuff concerning child support or 'parental responsibility'---but if you have a marriage that you're working on, you do belong here. Regardless of your former 'affiliation'.

That's just my opinion of course...

Thank you to everyone who took the time to answer and make me feel so welcome.

I learned quite a lot from this thread. I saw some of you in a very different light than I had seen you when I was lurking.

K is right -- moaning gets us nowhere. I am at the point where I have accepted the situation because it cannot be changed. But there are waves that wash over me and occasionally that tidal wave comes crashing in. That's when I feel that need to vent or explode.

I am definitely trying to follow the MB principles and H tries his best too although he is less devoted than I am. (He is not a joiner -- well, at least not in "support groups" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I can definitely see some of your points - BTDT and MOM about "[censored]" and CM about personal attacks. I don't see why anyone should engage in a personal attack. And "[censored]" is a horrible word, but I am sorry to say that in my worst fights with my H I have used just that word.

When I used it, it was because I was trying to make the OC less human. Don't get upset -- let me explain. Life with an OC means being up to your ears in reality. The child has needs that must be paid for. The OW has emotional turmoil that must be dealt with. And WS's are sometimes soooo insensitive. Not on purpose, but because they forget who they are talking to.

One of the times when I said the B word was in the middle of an argument and my H said something like "What do you want me to do, Marie, regardless of how I feel she IS the mother of my child and I have to deal with her on this issue."

I never really knew what "cut like a knife" meant until that moment. This OC was real and she was bigger than life because she was HIS child but not mine. Using the B word was a way of bringing her down to a level where I could cope. I hope that makes sense.

But that was when the anger was new. It is rare for me to have an outburst like that these days. But some of the people who come here are still new at this awful game and I can understand their anger. Maybe it would be better for all involved if we tried to make them understand that what they are feeling will pass. Because it truly does. You reach a point when you don't feel you have to beat up everyone (including yourself).

MJ I would be deeply ashamed to actually print the things I have thought about the OC at the beginning. My H also prayed for a miscarriage. He was so upset that he walked around in a stupor during the entire pregnancy. It is truly hard to understand, unless you have been there, how hard this hits when you've cried yourself to sleep at night, cried in the bathroom stalls of malls on Saturday afternoons or in restaurants, trying to understand why all around you are pregnant women, women with babies, and happy families -- except you. I still have a bit of work to do on that part.

Butterfly, Jtigger and Steph, I think everyone is entitled to that safe haven where they can speak freely. Especially when, as Angelia said, there is no one else you can really talk to. But, I agree with Butterfly, not just to pick a fight.

Malc -- you are one wild woman! I would love to party with you one night when I am at the end of my rope and can't take anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I bet you could come up with some unique handles for the ex-OW that would keep me laughing.

Stacia, I want to tell you how happy I am you are expecting in September. I am soooo jealous, but every success story helps to give hope to others. So maybe the miracle will happen one day. The one great thing about having an OC when you are infertile is that you know your H is trying to work things out because of love. He could walk away and not owe me a thing. He could be a full-time dad and a darn good one. But, he CHOSE to be with me -- kidless, weepy, and sometimes b-zitchy. That's love my friends.

See you guys later.
Marie

It really does get better Marie believe me.
I'm not as angry as I use to be I still have my kodak moments. Yeah here's one CHICKEN HEAD

Email me.

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

How are you?
What's been happening with you?
I pray all is well.

I totally agree with marieluvsrich. I have called my husband's OW so many names and so many times and it makes me feel so much better- as long as it isn't said to her or my now ex-husband. Venting is good for the soul - it is good to be cleansed - and where else but here and to God to go? I firmly believe that OW got pregnant on purpose - her divorce papers were filed- she was losing custody of her 1st child, and my ex had not done any of that- they didn't use any birth control and they did it right when she was ovulating. He was stupid, but I think OW was trying to "nail him". She is insecure and needy - I just try to repeat "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" over and over and know that I am going to be fine regardless.