MALC,
You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why accuse me of something that has be implimented on these boards before I got here. These nicknames were used on a regular, no one had a problem with them before. It goes back to what I said earlier if people get offend over the nicknames or etc. JMHO then they haven't made peace with there situation you have created.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This is what I said about Autumn and your calling her a FOW:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> specifically dealing with Autumnday, she is NOT an OW, she is a FWW. Her xOM was not married, and therefore, can not, and should not be catagorized in the OW area.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You also said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I here people say it all the time go over to TOW so why is it different for me. Like I said before I guess I'm not in the click of things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


It's not different for you it is different for Autumnday as she is NOT a FOW and never has been, she is a FWS. The board you were telling her to go vent on was TOW, which she is not. And, there is no clique, just the fact that I think that if you are going to use the nicknames, get them right. Now, if you were to call me a FOW/FWS, I have no problem with that, as that's what I am, but I still have a right to post here, as I am REBUILDING my marriage, and have been for almost 4 yrs from our last D-day and over 11 yrs from MY first D-day from my H's first A!

Just to reitterate, I have NO problem with the lable that I wear because it begins with FORMER. I have a problem when someone who does not and never has deserved the lable of OW being called OW or FOW. THAT was my point, and I have changed those shoes that were pinching so badly, and have now chosen shoes that look very nicely, along side my H's! I have worn many of the shoes/lables that are being thrown around here, so I know how they all feel, and am quite comfortable with the road I am now traveling.

Just like you, I am providing my opinion in regards to using the lables correctly, not saying that you can't use them. As you told me, go back and read what I have said, all of it. I'm not flaming, just pointing out a common error in regards to what lable Autumnday should be wearing.

I have an idea, how about RW(recovering wife) and RH(recovering husband)? Especially once they are well down the road of recovery?

JMHO, as I said, you can take it or leave it. I've dealt with some pretty hefty stuff in my past, and have some pretty thick skin. I'm just pointing out that in this case the labling has been incorrect.

[QUOTE]This is what I said about Autumn and your calling her a FOW:


Once again tigger please try to comprehend what I wrote. I never specifically called Autumn anything. Please show me were I called Autumn an OW. I said I've leaned from ow not nameing a soul. Now you can take this and make it out to whatever you choose, you are so please to do. The fact is I never said anyone's name so once again if the shoe fit, wear it well. If not why try it on.


[b]Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece.

You can take this, or leave it whatever suits you tigger.
Let's please be done with this it's tired and redundant.[/b]

Autumn I never label you as anything. I never even read your story. I have no clue who you are(no harm done) if you got offened (my bad) It seems people get so personal. I just feel something else is behind this and using surface Bullsh8t for a hidden agenda.
Be Blessed.

Simple observations about this board (not just P/C)...

The rules say everyone who wants to rebuild their marriage is welcome.

There are quite a few posters here who are very supportive of the issues WS and FWS have to deal with, if not empathetic.

Regardless of what the rules say or whether we have some advocates or not, these forums will always be biased towards the betrayed simply because the betrayed is seen as being unjustly wronged and the waywards seen as defective offenders who must be made to atone for their sin.

I'm sure many of you will say "I never treated a WS or FWS badly!" If you can, it is appreciated.

I know that when I need a good kick in the pants, I can post here about a problem and get it. The ONE thing that we WS and FWS will NOT find here very often is a tolerance or support when we are struggling with feelings that the BS would rather not know about, or if they do, seem to think we deserve all the pain we get. Sometimes we do think about the x-om or the x-ow. That happens. Does that make us terrible? I have days when I wonder if staying in my marriage was such great decision, but if I post that, I will no doubt receive several 2x4s in rapid succession.

The reason the ideas about a WS board keep coming up is because we WS and FWS need to vent sometimes too. As Autumnday said, there seems to be a prevailing attitude here that the WS or FWS has forfeited any right to vent our anger or to ask empathy as a consequence of our action. Adding "For WS or FWS..." to the title of the thread does little to attenuate the inevitable flame to follow.

You want typical examples? I was responded to by another poster as follows:

"Whack! MB 2x4! I have no sympathy for you."

I have seen countless posts where WS and FWS are indirectly compared with rapists and murderers.

The very effort made in this thread to make such a distinction between a FOW and FWW makes me wonder why. I was both FOM/FWH. Am I somehow more despicable because I was an OM as well?

To be honest, as a FOM, I did go to TOW in hopes of finding people who could understand the pain a recovering Other person goes through. But, I was disappointed to find mostly angry single OW venting about how their married men are scum. An since I was one, I'd be treated like scum as well. Those boards are NOT a safe environment for anyone trying to recover their marriage.

I understand that the BSs are in pain and it's never been my intention to exascerbate it. However, we WS and FWS are real people with real emotions that are powerful and painful. It's not the same as what the BS goes through, but it's there nonetheless. We want to do the right thing and try to work through our demons but there seems to be little interest here in anything other than telling us what's wrong with us when we do. I'm willing to bet that THIS is the main reason you'll find a WS or FWS take a sabbatical from the board when the have to work through issues they know wouldn't be popular here.

I have observed that many BS are appreciative of the presence of the WS or FWS because of the insight they get of their own WS of FWS. I'm glad that's been helpful.

I have received a lot of helpful advice from this board. I'm grateful for that. But I never believed for a second that I really "belonged" here.

So, I don't offer this as a plea for any kind of change, but only as an honest observation of how this board really operates when it comes to WS and FWS. We can quote the rules all day long, but at the end of the day WS and FWS are still riding in the back of the bus.

This is what I was afraid would happen. I didn't start this thread spoiling for a fight.

K is right,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate to see the disrespect and anger dished out here---it makes no difference to me who's serving it up. They do no good when they behave in that manner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a bottom line statement. Wish I could put things in a nutshell like that.

MALC, I wasn't out to get you by quoting your statement. You have every right to say what you said. Lots of people hold the same opinion.

I only wanted to point out that if a FWS were to dispense GOOD, SOUND advice, but did so while making generalizations, and lumping people together, (s)he would not receive much respect, if any. I know I wouldn't have much respect for a FWS who posted in such a manner.

I think we should ALL be held to the same standard, no matter our label. I'm a FWW, and would be sorely disappointed to hear another FWW write with disrespect.

Before you go getting all upset with Tigger, I want to point out that when I first came here, she gave me kind advice about how I should conduct myself on here. She said that although I'm a WW and not an OW, I kind of represent an OW, because I'm female, wayward, and have an OC on the way. She told me that when the P/C board was first established it was for BS only. That I needed to be mindful of the many hurting BS when I posted, and to always, always show respect. To consider myself a guest, and behave accordingly. (Tigger, I'm sorry if I got that a little off, but it's the jist, right?)

Tigger is a lady in every sense of the word, and I believe has been a member who has been not only respectful but graceful as well.

Originally posted by MALC in reference to me saying there is a difference between FWS & WS.:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whats the difference? is it, one is home w/ BS and one is still in the fog is that it? Sometimes the FWS go back and forth with his feelings still playing games ask some OW here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the difference is clear. A FWS is no longer commiting adultery, a WS is still commiting adultery. As far as labels though, if you call me a WS, that's ok, no biggie, I know what you mean. Sometimes I type WS, sometimes I type FWS. It's just labels on here to make things easier. I was more referring to the fact that I hope people realize there is a difference between someone who is currently in an A, and someone who is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes I've learned a whole lot from OW. I've seen were some are remorseful, when a BS vent the ow who seem to be remorseful get offended. I ask myself why are they offened? I wonder have they really made peace with there situation, and if so why would they become offended. The only answered I can come up with they really haven't made peace with the devastation they have inflicted on another.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only speak for myself, but it bugs me, not as a FWW, but as a human being when people resort to name calling and generalizations. I don't care who they are or what there label is. If their manner is rude, their manner is rude.

As far as finding peace with the devastation I have inflicted upon my H. Does one ever find "peace" with the devastation they inflicted on their spouse? Should they? I'm not sure I should do that. Forgive myself, yes, but find peace w/ it, I just don't know? It seems like an oxymoron to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what gets me is when a BS such as LYNN voice her opinion you have the same BS who's life been turn upside down from this attack her because she voice how she feels this disturbs me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if we wear the same label as someone else, we shouldn't call them out when their manner is disrespectful?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> just because they tell you they are remorseful does that mean they really are? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not. You're right, how do we really know what anyone of us says is the truth? I do think though, that over time, there is a pattern that each of us can be characterized by. I go by gut instinct a lot too, but I also read as many posts as I possibly can, to get a feel for that particular poster.

Here's a little story...When I first came here nearly a year ago, a lot of the oldies were on hiatus. Of course, I didn't know that till a few months later, when some started coming back. When they did, I went back and read some of each of their old posts, so I could get to "know them". When I first started reading Catnip's, I was like, "man, who is this chick?" I thought she was a smart-a, and I thought she viewed all OW as being her OW. All of these thoughts were ASSUMPTIONS based on reading just a few posts. I was so intimidated by her. However, I just figured I would do everything to not cross paths with her. I told all this to Tigger, (hope you don't mind me sharing this, Tig). Tigger said, please, please give Catnip a chance. If you keep reading her posts, you will find that she is VERY FAIR. That she was a little intimidated at first too, but began posting on her threads, and lo and behold became friends. I followed Tig's advice, (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I poured through lots of Cat's posts. I gained a ton of respect for her, as I found out where she was coming from. I saw the "entire parade", instead of just "one float". I learned that she was INDEED fair, listened to all views, etc. Mostly I learned that as far as she was concerned, if you're here to work on your M, no matter your label, you are valued and more than welcome to be here. I'm proud to call her a friend now. She's funny as hell too, and I LOVE FUNNY!! Plus she thinks my OC is cute!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , how can I NOT LOVE HER?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

There is more of what you have said I want to respond to, as well as what others have said, but I feel I'm getting a little scatter brained, and have said MORE than my share for now. I want to make sense anyway, if possible. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I suck at articulating, even on a good day, and today, I've left the comp about 5 times during this post. I'll write more later. For now, I have a hungry baby. Plus, it's snowing, lots of shoveling to do...yuck!!!

Tigger, yes, yes, yes...get out this way!!! Would love for our families to meet, and for us to be able to do something special together!!

Take good care everyone, and keep warm!

~autumn

Autumnday,
haven't been posting lately but still read almost everyday,maybe hoping somewhere i will find answers . Your question about do "BS gain insight from FWS," i do as a BS.I feel everyone has there right to their opinion and their feelings are real,their your own feelings. I like to see how others sre dealing with there situations, sometimes it gives me hope ,sometimes I feel very discouraged. I think one of my problems with my situation is that I care too much about others feelings. In our case Ow is single,19 years old and I know her. In fact I just went to speak with her about 2 weeks ago. Everyone says not to do that ,but I felt I had to .People say ,don't give her more powere ,let her know anything about you ect... but she does know me and my kids. She hasn't made anything difficult for us. The problem is she still thinks my H is undecided,because they still talk everyday(this gives her that message,I try to tell my h) and she wants to be with him. She told me if he decides to stay with me then she will never talk to him or see him again. I tried to tell her that we are together, i told her I know her feelings are real and I am not trying to sweep them aside,but I asked her to try to understand what I have been through. I know my H is really to blame for he is torn,and doesn't want to hurt either one. Some people think he is horrible for doing this, but I know him and he does really care about her. No I am not excusing his A it was wrong ,but I am just trying to say he is not a horrible person. I am just having a really bad day, very emotional, crying alot. I feel bad for this young girl ,knowing she is pregnant and not having a husband to share this with. My H told me she had an ultrasound and it is a boy. Maybe this is why I having such a bad day. I know it is hard on him too, he has to live with what he has done to both of us. And I know that he is having a hard time dealing with having a baby , he can't turn his back on. I know this is going against MB principles ,by having him continue contact with her. I don't want them to but I don't know how to make it stop, I don't know if I can do plan B. Everyone keep posting FOW,FWS BS it does give us all some insight . C

MALC,

Well, the following quotes from your posts are what prompted me to reply in the way that I did. No, you never directly called Aut an OW, but by all that you said, it was plainly implied!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you could have spoke up, there is a board that would allowed you to do just that. TOW by all means and they don't give a dam how BS feels.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I've learned a whole lot from OW. I've seen were some are remorseful, when a BS vent the ow who seem to be remorseful get offended.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I quoted the following statement, because it is plainly untrue! Take a look at my joining date, it is, I believe, Oct 2000 So, if OW, whether married or not, have not been welcomed, or if the site were ONLY for BS, I would have been told not to post here. And, your little "CLICK" comment was unwarrented as well. There is great concern for BS, especially the new posters. I am getting sick of "this board is ONLY for the BS, so if you don't like it, get off"! This board is for WS, BS, any who are wanting to HELP others in repairing a M that has been damaged by an A, and in way too many cases, an OC.



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I first came to MB, no OW could not come here talking trash they were reminded THIS SITE IS FOR BS. Now tables seem to have turned. BS vent about ow you have other BS reprimanding her for venting maybe because some BS here are not in the CLICK you know what I mean, were is the concern that use to be for the BS. Once again if FWS OW has made peace with the situation and goes to a site were it was mainly for BS and they get offended the question they need to ask themselves have they really made peace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


You keep running the same phrase of "have you/they really made peace" well, I like Aut's reply, I have forgiven myself, and my H for our mistakes, but I feel if there is ever a peace about what I've done, or what my H has done, then there is something wrong, cause that would mean that it didn't matter anymore. So, NO, I'm not at peace about what I've done, but I AM at peace for the direction that my M is heading.

As for this statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just feel something else is behind this and using surface Bullsh8t for a hidden agenda.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

My only agenda for being on these boards is to learn, help and be helped when necessary. I remember how fragile a FWS is less than a year after D-day, especially when dealing with the OC that she has brought into the picture. I am by no means demeaning what the BS goes through, it's just that I know that personally, I went through he!! with the stupid choices I made, and the results of those choices. I also know many personal things about Aut(not gonna reveal any though Aut) that tends to make me act like a mother lion, protecting her young! I have been in her shoes, and know what she is getting at in her posts.

I have been around and seen many posts and posters come and go. As someone else said, not many can say that they've been nice to a WS/FWS, but I can say that I will always be there to defend when I see the need, whether the person be a WS/FWS, BS, FOW, whatever. I still stand by what I have said here, and supported it with the above quotes. If you still can't see it, that's fine, but you will not be able to tell me otherwise.

Originally posted by Low Orbit

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The very effort made in this thread to make such a distinction between a FOW and FWW makes me wonder why. I was both FOM/FWH. Am I somehow more despicable because I was an OM as well?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think you are more despicable because you were an OM as well as WH. It's just the only good thing, (if there is such a thing in adultery), is that while I ripped apart the life of my H, I didn't also rip apart the life of someone's wife, because x-om was single. Trust me, I'm the first to say I don't deserve any medals for that. I cannot say beyond the shadow of a doubt that I wouldn't have cheated w/ the x-om if he were a MM. I believe Tigger was just trying to point out to MALC that there is no problem w/ labels, but that we should probably check on a poster before we assume who and what their label is. If people want to call me an OW, I guess that's ok. I'm a helluva lot closer to being an OW than a BW. If you think about it though, in reality I'm actually closer to being like the WH who had an affair w/ a single OW. I think around here, if a woman is the cheater, it is usually assumed that she is the OW to somebody. Ok, enough of that...about your post, Low...well put!!

MALC & others~

I did want to clarify something. When I stated there were times I wished I could've discussed issues surrounding my withdrawal from x-om, but didn't do so in fear of causing pain to the BS on this board...My fear wasn't because I would be bashing x-om's wife, in the face of all hurting BW on here, (again because he didn't have a wife), but rather because I thought to give details of my pain, and the fact that I missed him would be hurtful to a BS. Like why would someone want to hear my misery? It was self-inflicted, afterall. Like Low, I've often felt that being a WS, I have forfeited my right to vent and to ask for help, (unless the help I'm seeking is strictly about my M, and my H). I will say, a lot of this is something I have self-imposed. I struggle with this in my personal life as well. I try very hard not to complain to my H about things that I may've called him on in the past, because I remind myself that what I did supercedes any injustice he may do to me. I'm working on this, and trying to forgive myself. He is letting it go more easily than I am.


Originally posted by MALC:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Autumn I never label you as anything. I never even read your story. I have no clue who you are(no harm done) if you got offened (my bad) It seems people get so personal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No offense taken. I thought you may at least know a little bit about me, since you were one of the kind well wishers when I announced the birth of my OC.

cmdp~

I went back to read some of your story. I found the one you posted on New Years Eve. I see another fell through the cracks. I am truly sorry. You are one sweet lady, I am sad for what you are going through.

Your H is having contact w/ x-ow still? I understand how you may be torn, especially given the x-ow's age. Heck, she's not much older than your own C's, so I guess I can see where you have sympathy for her in a motherly way? However, there is no reason for your H to have contact w/ her. I also understand you may be feeling like you're being pulled in 100 different directions w/ the varying advice you've been given by family and friends. At the end of the day, it is your H and your marriage you are fighting for. Weigh what everyone says, but also listen to what your heart and mind tell you. You know your H, yourself, and your M better than anyone. I will ask if you're doing a Plan A, though...and have you considered Plan B, especially since he is still having contact? Also, I agree whole heartedly w/ the fact you should have an attorney to protect you and your Cs. An attorney can also be the 3rd party that you need so your H has no excuse what so ever to contact x-ow.

God I feel so awful for you, especially since you said you have been crying a lot today. I feel like all I've done is b*tch all day w/ this thread. You are in very real pain and turmoil. I hope someone wiser and better than I am at this will be a long to help you soon. If nothing else from me, you can count on good thoughts from me to you, and wishing I could take your pain away. I honestly mean that.

Take good care.

~aut

Is it time for JL to state the obvious? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

First, it is good to remember that every BS is married to a WS AND every WS is married to a BS. Isn't that profound. The point however, is that if the marriage is to be rebuilt or saved, it is VERY useful to understand what the person on the other side is dealing with. Hence WS's are very important to the health and value of this site, as are obviousy the BS's.

AD, your fear to post about your feelings for OM were not well founded. It would have helped others to hear what you are dealing with. HOWEVER, the key to all of this has been mentioned earlier. Are the stories, the comments, the questions directed toward saving the marriage? If they are then ALL is fair game. At least that is how I view it.

However, opinions that just come out of the blue with no obvious direction or request for discussion are not often helpful are they?? Hence the fine line. Is it useful to rebuilding a marriage? Might it help someone on the other side of the issue?

Finally AD you side something I thought I would comment on. [qoute]I was a wayward, transcends so many things [/quote]

Actually, it is YOU that trancends so many things. It is time you realized this. You have trancended your former situation. You have transitioned into a good a loving W. Your H sounds as if he is as happy as most H's. You have done very well. So where you started is NOT the issue in my mind. It is where you are and where you are going. Given your situation you have every right to post whatever is bothering you.

Don't worry people will discuss it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Right Cat?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Heck that is the point, discussion and learning.

Must go, have lots more to say, but probably of little value. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . But, please AD and others post your feelings, ask for opinions, help, whatever. That is what this site is for.

God Bless,

JL

PS: If this site was for BS's only, I would NOT be here either. Heck, I don't qualify under any measure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, it is good to remember that every BS is married to a WS AND every WS is married to a BS. Isn't that profound.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why can't I ever think of these things? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Seriously, thanks for coming along to be my/our voice of logic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it is YOU that trancends so many things. It is time you realized this. You have transcended your former situation. You have transitioned into a good a loving W. Your H sounds as if he is as happy as most H's. You have done very well. So where you started is NOT the issue in my mind. It is where you are and where you are going. Given your situation you have every right to post whatever is bothering you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for this. It's really something I've been struggling with. I guess I shouldn't worry if others define me solely by the fact I was a betrayer, when I still define MYSELF by it.

You're great, you remind me of my Dad. Other than my H, I hold the most respect for him than anyone else I know. He's up there in age, (double my age)...I cringe everytime I hear the phone ring late at night. You know, he's probably the only person in the world I could tell my story to, and know it would remain with him.

Take good care!!

Autumn, post whatever you want. Who cares what others think? None of us know each other.

As for attacking, I see far more attacking by ow and the supporters of ow. In September I posted a message that was titled something like OW FEELINGS DON'T MATTER. The whole point of that was that whatever the wife wants, needs, etc., and whatever the marriage needs, etc. is fine, whatever the ow wants/needs does not matter. Good lord, the eruption was hysterical. OW far and wide, along with their supporters, were totally up in arms. How dare some BW come on and say such stuff.

As the months have ticked by, the whole no contact issue is beaten to death. Last month someone put up a message stating that NC was bad for the child. Clearly that person had read and seen all sides of the argument. OW and their supporters attack anyone who says that No contact is a viable and acceptable choice. They use lame, tired excuses, such as "it took two" as if we are all to stupid to figure that out. Then they talk about how the child deserves this and that, never once thinking of other people. And so the war goes on. Not once has the attacks of others kept me from posting my experiences. Some like it others don't.

But, I think lots of OW/supporters are passive agressive on here. I think of one ow who was almost hysterical in her obsession and her lot in life when her affair ended and she was left with a child, XMM totally dumping her. Her posts were wild, all over the map emotion. Some days she was angry and lashing out, others she seemed in control. But, her posts had an honesty to them. It was far easier to read her raw anger as she blasted him and his wife, cause it did not appear to be written as passive agressive, but pure outright anguish and anger. That is honest. I believed her when she was scared, actually felt for her at times. I think she really and truly wanted the BW side of things. Not like others on here, (there is one right now) say things like "how can you stay with a man who would abandon his child" etc. Somehow trying to make the BW out to be the crazy or something.

If you are hurting, there are plenty of people in your position on here to help you. Just as there are people who will not agree with you. I for one will always see the BW side of this story. I have little sympathy for any WS/OP, as they are the ones who caused all of the mess, hurt and confusion in the first place. Yet there are others who really do see a betrayers point of view. You talk about feeling sorry for the hurt and the pain. I believe that. But, just as my writing comes off mean and harsh, sometimes I read the WS writings as smug and self rightous.

We all see things differently. But isnt' that what this board is for? Getting lots of points of views? Seeing it from all angles? All sides?

Excellent post and POV, Lynn. I think we are all finally getting somewhere... insight wise.

For me, I have experienced a weird kind of mellowing and have been able to look beyond my pain while not discounting others' pain and frustration. I think if we remain aware of where we have been and where we are going, we can watch the evolution.

I like how you stick to your convictions despite your admittedly occasional harsh delivery. No one could ever call you a hypocrite. It's funny how we all get so upset with people in the beginning and after a time understand where they are coming from and accept each other. Quite a process.

Cat =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, just as my writing comes off mean and harsh, sometimes I read the WS writings as smug and self rightous.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think any poster, be it WS, BS, or OW, is capable of sounding mean, harsh, smug, self righteous, etc... I just wish no matter what label we wear, we can recognize poor behavior, no matter who is doing it, and not be afraid to call them on it. I think sometimes we overlook rude statements by posters simply because they are from "our camp", but are only too quick to point it out when someone w/ a different label does the same thing.

Tell me, do you think a WS would receive much respect if s(he) spoke meanly and harshly? I've never seen anyone say, "I respect you, and the things you say" to a WS when they were rude. Maybe it's happened, but I wasn't around for it? MALC said she respected you on the same thread in which you used some pretty nasty name calling. My guess, although I could be wrong, she (and others) would not pay kudos to a WS who wrote similar things, and well she shouldn't.

Greetings Autumn. I can understand your position.
I respect what you say also they are your feelings.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MALC said she respected you on the same thread in which you used some pretty nasty name calling. My guess, although I could be wrong, she (and others) would not pay kudos to a WS who wrote similar things, and well she shouldn't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never saw LYNN point of veiw as being right out
disrespectful. I saw it as being precise and to the point.Even the term (bunny boilers) that came from the movie... fatal attraction the vindictive scorn OW who didn't get what she wanted after trying so hard to get the MM she killed MM daughter's rabbit. OW went as far as getting pregnant, So I understood very well were Lynn was coming from.

Just like I can understand your point of veiw. Even if I never walked in your shoes. I quess what it boils down to JMHO FWS WS OW have no valid reason to come here and bash BS. After all the BS was and is the victim in the equation. FWS WS OW were willing particpant in all this. As a BS I feel they have no right to bash a BS at all. Even though fws ws ow world was turned upside down also, it was by there own doing not the BS do you feel what I'm saying.

I quess as emotion run so high. I think FWS WS OW are not vigilant of the destruction that has been cause until the fog has lift. Even sometimes after the fog has lifted, I still see some justifying what happened like they were the victims. Maybe they are victims of there own circumstance and doing. BS has nothing to do with that.

It also behooves me when I hear OW or OM
talk about how they hate or dislike the BS. I say what the hell is wrong with them after all MM and OW rain on BS parade. I'm still puzzled about that one.

Autumn I comend you, on your recovery. I also know it's an on going process. I heard DR Phil say the energy you put in to demise a marriage You have to put double in to rebuilding. Meaning you have to work twice as hard. I really commend the men here who FWS has OC. It takes a hell of a man to except this. I often ask myself if I was a man how could I handle an OC in the home. I know for me, I can't handle it. OC is no where near me. I do ask H how's she doing or have he talked to his daughter. I also give ow greetings something I didn't give a dam about early on. The only reason I'm able to do so, I now except the fate of my marriage. I'm finding peace with my situation far as my marriage being over.

Kudos to all who's recovering. Those who are not believe me time really heal wounds. You will find peace believe me you will.


Link removed by Moderators. Was offensive to several members.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Xarelel ]</small>

it's nice to read and see everyone so agreeable.

i would like to add just one thing in reference to malc's post. she said ------- I quess what it boils down to JMHO FWS WS OW have no valid reason to come here and bash BS. After all the BS was and is the victim in the equation. FWS WS OW were willing particpant in all this.

i think it is important to remember that everyone has their own specifics to this mess. where i don't want to say that an A is ever the answer to marrital problems. i can also see where some of the ws's with oc here were nearly pushed into their A by a now bs who for years had multiple A's. everyone has a different breaking point where they may just simply throw in the towel and say "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".

not saying they are right or wrong just that we have to look at each individuals situation on it's own merits and realize that there are no one size fits all answers.

Pops,

Are you trying to say : "There ain't no pancake so flat that it doesn't have two sides." ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I picked up on the same comment by Malc. It is universally agreed by the folks on this site that the A is the decision and responsibility of the WS. However, the state of some of the marriages makes one have a hard time saying that some of the BS's are </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After all the BS was and is the victim in the equation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are most certainly the victim of the A. Beyond that is a case by case situation, and often is NOT clear. So I think the WS should get and deserves to get more leeway than has been suggested IF the WS wants to indeed help rebuild and repair the marriage.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Pops can speak for himself on this matter but I do know that many men who have come here in the past with their W's pregnant by OM, have gotten alot of help from people like Tigger, in fact specifically her. I suspect that AD would do the same. MOm of 5 and others have also helped over the years. These women have proven to be huge assets to this board and interestingly for men in their H's situation.

In fact before there was a Pregnancy section many women such as Facing Choices, who just reserfaced with a great story of her life, got a lot of help from WS women. It seems to me a bit more tolerance is necessary especially factoring in the very very sensitive issues that this particular portion of MB deals with.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL,

Again, you make me blush to be so acknowledged from someone like you! Basically, you are the one on the outside, looking in, and can see many things that those of us are blind to due to our own situations or pain. I like to think that I've been of some help to as many as I can help.

Pops,

I am one of those that you may be speaking about where I was originally a BS who ended up having not one, but two A's myself. I can say that the first was totally a "get back at you" type A, but the second, I believe that my self esteem was so low, and had been basically seperated from Sailorman for almost a full year, that when someone finally paid attention to me, I let my body dictate what I was doing. By the time my right mind kicked in, this guy was like many of the xOW who torment the BW's from this board! Heck, we even had a military RO on him, but that didn't keep him from stalking around our house till he was kicked out of housing! BUT, I do not use that as an excuse for what I did. I'm a big girl, who was ignoring what's right and wrong, and have paid my price for it. I didn't see the need to further destroy another family than I had already contributed to.

Now, I can also understand why you and FH have gone the CS/C route, and commend you for making it work. I also know, that like in the case where the H is the WS where many of them have chosen to only pay CS and have NC. It's so sad to read of those, like KT, who are trying so hard for the OC to make C work, and the xOW is hindering it every chance she gets! It's those stories that I wonder why C would be necessary. Who does it truly help? KT, her H, the BC and the OC are all suffering for the xOW's behaviour!

I often wonder about the book that was being written. I submitted our full story, and that would possibly help many understand better where I have been and how we have survived! Heck, we were M'd less than 5 yrs when Sailorman had his first A! Now, 10, almost 11 yrs later, we are getting ready to celebrate our 15 wedding anniversary! Not only that, but we are now talking about the future in more than just next year! We talk about 10-15 yrs, and beyond! I can honestly say, that in our trying times, whether we knew they were trying or not, we would never use that time frame!

Abbi will be 3 the day after our 15th wedding anniversary, and she is such a joy, not only to Sailorman and myself, but to both sides of our family! That is something that I thank God for every day! Sailorman's side of the family knows EVERYTHING, thanks to my MIL, but my side only a few know. I was more concerned about his side of the family's acceptance, and there has never been any deferance shown to Abbi!

So, now that I've taken on the old tigger4jdt, and rambled, I shall leave you with that.

Again, thank you JL for being to gracious in your comments about myself! I strive to be helpful to any and all I can help.

God Bless Everyone!

Tigger

Ok, I fess up. I did have a hidden agenda in mind when I started this thread...to get Tigger back and posting more often. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> J/K...no hidden agenda, but really, so glad to see you post! Lots of people helped me in the beginning, but it was you that was so diligent, you helped me to sort things out, and to finally find the courage to tell the truth. Well you, and a swift kick in the butt from TMCM telling me it would "be my own funeral..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I'm feeling sentimental today or something, so I also want to thank Mo5 who helped me find my way. Then there is Amy and e29, two sweet YOUNG ladies that gave me a gentle push to do what was right. They put me to shame by their ability to do what was right the moment they discovered they were P.

K,pops and all the WW's husbands that do not post on here were my inspiration, giving me hope that my H might possibly forgive me.

Thanks guys!!

Autumn,
Isn't it funny how hard it is to take a bad decision and then make ethical and morally correct decisions from those circumstances.

We're dealing with x-om's attorney right now who told me that if I had any brains I would have just told my husband the baby was his. As if two wrong choices (the affair and then the lie) would somehow make it right.

Other than that...how are you doing?

e.

e~

Yes it is an odd and difficult road going from the most despicable behavior to actually making morally correct decisions. I remember thinking at the time I should have an abortion. Even though to have an abortion would go against what I had always believed in. At that point though, I was so morally bankrupt, and told myself, "What the hell, I had commited adultery, and that was also something I never pictured myself doing, so why would it be so bad to have an abortion?" Needless to say, my thought process was really messed up. I really thought I could do it, if I could do it before the P was discovered by too many people, primarily my children. My H already knew of the P, but again, because I was being such a jerk in my way of thinking, I thought I could just tell him I had a miscarriage. (He's as pro-life as they come)

When my teens accidentally found out I was P, they were SOOOO excited,(I thought they'd be mortified, given their ages, not to mention mine). They spent 3 hours that night lying on my bed with me, (in the past, I was lucky to get 3 minutes of their undivided attention), they were so happy, talking about the future of our family, and how things looked so bright, suggesting all sorts of baby names... My eldest actually said, "I knew God would answer my prayer and find a way to get you and Dad to be close again. Now you can't get a divorce!!" (They knew I had been asking him for a divorce for over a year) By the way, this night I'm talking about with my kids, was the same day that I last saw x-om. After those few hours with my kids, if I knew nothing else, I knew I would NEVER have contact w/ him again. I not only wanted my H, I wanted my kids. I had betrayed them too.

That night I also decided I could NOT have an abortion, and for the first time in 2 years I thought there might somehow, someway be hope for us. I knew I had to somehow take the mess I created and turn it around for the better. At the time, I didn't know the best way, was to start with the truth, duh!! Well, looking back, I guess I did know in my heart the TRUTH was the first step, but was desperately searching for another, (EASIER) way.

As you know, I found this site. Hoping to hear another option than the truth. I didn't find that...THANK GOD. It still took me 6 more weeks to do the right thing. The rest is history.

As far as your x-om's attorney's comment, I think that is a fairly common belief. To me, it's a "worldly" belief, although I know even some clergy suggest the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Gosh, I got long winded again, and I haven't even answered your question as to how I'm doing. To go any longer w/ this post would get boring, so if you'd like to email me, I would love it. I would also like to know how you're doing!!

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was so morally bankrupt, and told myself, "What the hell, I had commited adultery, and that was also something I never pictured myself doing, so why would it be so bad to have an abortion?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear alot of peple saying this, mostly BW, that you had an affair, so you have no morals, why not abort the pregnacy? When does two wrongs make a right??

I to had the abortion thought going through my head when I found out I was pregnant with the 2nd oc. I had already ended the affair when I found out. But having an abortion is going so much lower than I already had and could never do it.