Just my two cents on how the Dr. Laura phenomenon has betrayed mothers....An example: married couple has two kids. Mother quits career to stay home with kids. Father has affair and divorces mother to marry ow. Father petitions for custody. Father has money for good lawyer. Court determines kids should live with father because it is a two parent household and ow/new wife doesn't work. Mother had to go back to work after divorce so she has to put kids in day care. Mother lost husband; mother lost kids; mother lost years of her career and earning potential. I see this trend to apply the Dr. Laura principles in custody cases as very threatening to women.<BR> Simone

<BR>Simone,<P>How about this anecdote:<P>Woman betrays husband, files for divorce, custody of their four children, and possession of the house. The court orders the husband out, orders him to pay alimony, and in addition, pay child support in excess of 50% of his net pay. The woman uses the huge child support windfall to subsidize her new boyfriend's cocaine habit, and the new boyfriend moves in within days of the husband moving out. Yeah, you might guess that I see the OLD pattern of women always winning custody as very threatening to men.<P>The solution lies in removing the financial incentives in child custody. The way to do that is to move away from a "winner take all" mentality, and adopt a default of 50/50 joint physical custody, with no money ever changing hands. True, this couldn't work in every case, but if it was the default, we'd have a lot less rancor and I really believe the children would be better off.<P>Bystander

I guess every state is different. I originally wanted to file for sole custody and my lawyer said the courts here in OH. really push for shared parenting as opposed to sole custody. They know that it really ties up the courts so they push for the shared parenting here.<P>I was told the only way I could get sole custody was to show their mother as being abusive, on drugs or have sexually molested them. None of which she was.\<P><BR>As far as child support, that was calculated based on her income and a table showing what the support would be for 1 child, 2 children, 2 etc. So it was all cut and dry. There was no haggling, except my x tried to under report her income.<P>In our case, x did not ask for alimony, neither did I. She made it seem like it was out of the kindness of her heart(what heart?). My lawyer told me he doubted she would any or much as she was earning a liveable wage.<P>I guess in OH they no longer give alimony for ever. It is for a definite period.<P>They didn't even ask for grounds for the divorce.<P>I guess that there are different laws in every state.

I guess every state is different. I originally wanted to file for sole custody and my lawyer said the courts here in OH. really push for shared parenting as opposed to sole custody. They know that it really ties up the courts so they push for the shared parenting here.<P>I was told the only way I could get sole custody was to show their mother as being abusive, on drugs or have sexually molested them. None of which she was.\<P><BR>As far as child support, that was calculated based on her income and a table showing what the support would be for 1 child, 2 children, 2 etc. So it was all cut and dry. There was no haggling, except my x tried to under report her income.<P>In our case, x did not ask for alimony, neither did I. She made it seem like it was out of the kindness of her heart(what heart?). My lawyer told me he doubted she would any or much as she was earning a liveable wage.<P>I guess in OH they no longer give alimony for ever. It is for a definite period.<P>They didn't even ask for grounds for the divorce.<P>I guess that there are different laws in every state.

Wow Bystander,<BR>What state do you live in? I want to move there. I understand your move for 50/50 custody....but there are alot of problems with it. First and foremost the parents need to be able to get along....be "friends" so to speak. Second, what makes the children happy? Isn't that the most important thing? My H didn't seem to care one iota about there happiness in the last 2 years...only his. What makes anyone think that he will change? I know people who have tried 50/50....it has not worked. There are so many factors involved in that type of custody. I was informed that we must live in the same school district as each other. My H has his plans ready to build a condo in a wealthy area. I can not afford to live there. I could not even afford a 2 room lean-to. Also take into condideration a woman who puts her life/career on hold for over 9 years to raise "our" children. I was here....many days alone...raising our children when he went on business trips. I supported his career. I did without so he could afford the nice car and great expensive suits to impress clients. I beamed with pride when he recieved awards for the great job. I entertained.....I searched for unique gifts for clients and their wives. I baked sweets constantly for all of the office workers. He came home to a clean home....clean children....and a clean wife. My nights...many into the morning....were spent cleaning...washing...painting.....preparing the next days meal...so I could spend "quality time with him....our children....and a family". Now think of me....I now have a 6.50 an hour job. With child support the children will be just fine financially. They want to stay with me. Their dad is very angry right now. He is very rough with them. On his weekend visitation...he can't even handle them for 48 hours. On Wednesdays he is suppose to have them from 5-8. He usually has them from 5-6 or 5-6:30. He would rather be in a bar or on a golf course. They know this to be true....one, because he tells them and two, because he did it for the last 2 years. He can't handle them...they don't want to be with him and really, I don't think he wants to be with them<p>[This message has been edited by MENTAL (edited February 28, 2000).]

It is so hard to separate what happened in the marriage from the relationship with the kids. <P>I bet you, that one of these days, you will not care what your husband did to you. It won't make you feel angry, shortchanged, or anything. Really, and seriously, that day will come. You will not always feel the way you feel now. You will some day feel nothing. You will be amazed one day, when you look at your children's father, and wonder what in the heck all the emotional turmoil was for, because you just don't care any more. That is indifference.<P>But, you gotta start making decisions now, like you already feel like that. It will make all the difference in how you present yourself to GAL, court, new attorney, and H. <P>I would never have believed anyone if they told me this when I went through it, Nancy. I would never have believed that I could have a future. That I could feel "indifferent". The pain is so bad, it is very hard to imagine that you can live without him.<P>hugs.<BR>TNT

TNT,<BR>Ok...I have always read all of your posts. You have been quite an inspiration for me. I understand everything you are saying. I do believe that one day what you said will happen. I feel it now. I guess I just didn't feel anything was wrong telling the GAL that I loved him. She made it sound so nasty...dirty....wrong, in her report. Like I was hanging on....just stuck in quick sand waiting to be pulled under. That is not the case. I do not feel that I even gave her that impression. Yes I would have loved to see us work all of this out...but we didn't. It is hard sometimes to see him as a caring and nice man. He always seems to have an agenda. Everything he does is for a reason....to control. It does make me feel ill sometimes. He uses the girls like pawns. the sad part is they know it. I have never said anything like that to them or in front of them....but when he actually does do something with them they come home and say what a control freak he is. How he makes them sit in a certain spot....wear certain clothes....buy exactly what he wants them to have....eat what he picks out etc. He can make an absolutley fun filled day so horrible. But either way...he loses. I know that. I feel so sorry for him.<P>I just seem to feel that he is so selfish. Has only thought about himself and his pocket book. He will learn the hard way that money does not buy love.

Dear Lady (can't call you mental),<P>Do you have the final report from the GAL and have you been in front of the judge yet? <P>My sister went through this and although we thought she was losing and people were not listening, she did get custody of her children. The state of WA allowed H custody for 3 months while they made their decisions and set court dates. She had no visitation during this three months. Since this was allowed we thought we were totally screwed.<P>She did not try suicide. But she did go postal. A neighbor called her at work, told her she was looking out her upstairs bedroom window into my sister's living room. My sister's H was having sex on the sofa while the three kids were sitting there watching TV. What my sister did was not pretty and the H brought this up time and again while he fought for full custody. <P>I DO believe that the GAL, judge and lawyers saw this for exactly what is was and this was VERY difficult. Much like your suicide attempt and the total set-up for the harassment thing.<P>My sister damaged his private parts; very difficult to get sympathy in a male dominated society. What we did was write a clear, concise explanation of what happened. We plastered the town with this. My sister spoke to nobody until they had read it. You should do the same. <P>Name names, be exact, be brutal, be totally truthful. Publish your hospital report, police report, EVERYTHING.<P>Write it and put it up here and you will be helped I'm sure. Carry 50 copies with you at all times and give it the same people over and over again.<P>I'd even go so far as to putting it up on a web site with pics and more info and putting the web address on the letter.<P>No MB, no plan anything, just get your kids.<BR>Fight like hell and F*&#K that H of yours.

Yes I have the GAL report. But the custody evaluator is dragging her feet. She was suppose to have her report in about 2 weeks ago. Nothing yet. I wish that could mean a good sign for me, but everything has been so one sided that I have doubts...big doubts. Frankly, I do not trust the Custody Evaluator. She lost custody of her children. Seems she lied on the stand in her own divorce. Not very crediable. I have this calm inside of me. I don't know why. Maybe something seems ok in me. i did not lie....I did not slam my H.....I just told the truth and answered only questions she asked me. Something has to be said for my H though.....he gave her stolen journals....he actually brought in 2 pictures that showed our daughters smiling when he had them this past summer.....to prove that they were happy. Now I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed....but....why would someone have to show pictures to claim someone is happy. I have photo albums full of a smiling husband....does that mean he was happy in our marriage? He claims not to be. Maybe I should give her those

<BR>MENTAL,<P>I realize that my default solution of 50/50 joint physical custody (with no money changing hands) isn't perfect. I firmly believe that it is, however, the best solution available from the selections we have.<P>You bring up the problem of the SAHM (or less frequently, the SAHD). I have to acknowledge that you're right, an equitable outcome from a SAHM/SAHD requires some compensation for time spent outside the workforce. I don't have a pat answer to this, apart from awarding some form of alimony to this person to update their skillset, say for 2-3 years. That may not seem totally fair, but I think its the closest to an equitable outcome we can derive.<P>You also mention that parents have to get along - you're right, but I think a 50/50 joint physical custody arrangement (with no money changing hands) would tend to defuse money arguments in the first place. And, of course, we could write the laws to award custody to the *opposite* parent if a parent tries "gaming" the arrangement by not taking the children half the time.<P>I really believe that this will eventually become the default arrangement in most states. Sadly, unless we agree earlier, it will take years of good fathers and good mothers losing their children. I'm cynical enough to believe we'll have to go that route first, before we come to our senses as a society. <P>Bystander<BR>

In Shock:<P>I love that idea! If you are posting the truth, what is there to lose? WOW!!! <P>It could be a movie! It SHOULD be a movie.<P>Lifetime is the perfect channel for it.<P><BR>Nancy,<P>I know that this is so difficult. But you will get past this.<BR>I think it is unfair for GAL or custody evaluator to use your feelings about husband as part of the consideration of custody. They should consider it "irevelant". <BR>Just keep doing a good job with your girls, keep your "wit", and I'm saying prayers for you while you are getting that new lawyer.<BR>God bless<BR>Connie<BR>mncon99@yahoo.com

I guess I am still waiting. New lawyer cancelled appointment. I guess he cancelled everyones for that day. Now I am having second thoughts. Hope is slowly dwindling away

Are you pursuing joint custody with your STBX, Mental? If so, I can offer some incite on that subject. If it is to determine which parent would be better, without indications of abuse or neglect than that is an entirely different story. Is your H cooperative? What has the evaluator said?

Cam,<BR>Here is scenario...<BR>Man has affair<BR>Wife finds out about it<BR>H claims he did nothing...but tells<BR> W to assume to worse<BR>Starts making W feel she is crazy<BR>Starts verbally and physically abusing W and Children<BR>W attempts suicide <BR>H picks her up at the Stress Center and brings her home<BR>While W is in shower...he walks out and leaves her and the children on their own for 2 1/2 weeks<BR>H comes home...proclaims love for wife and children<BR>Families life becomes a revolving door.<BR>H leaves and comes back after nights of hotels and drinking.<BR>H does this for 3 months<BR>H continues to proclaim love and keeps all of us wondering<BR>Continues to verbally and physically abuse all of us<BR>H walks out the day before our 9 year olds birthday for Easter Candy and never returns<BR>(April 2, 1999)<BR>We hear nothing from him for over 2 weeks<BR>W files for D, because H is running up credit cards and has abandoned the family<BR>H hears that D paper are to served from his attorney and comes into the home<BR>H is drunk and starts ransacking the home<BR>W pleads for him to leave and stop doing this in front of children<BR>W and Children help him pack some stuff...towels, dishes...etc.<BR>W helps him carry out to car<BR>H starts screaming....and grabs wife and throws her down in the yard<BR>Children watch all<BR>W calls H to try to talk and get him some help<BR>H calls cops on her because she is calling him<BR>W is arrested in May of 99 because OW claims I called her at work and said "you Whore"<BR>W spends the night in jail and loses custody of children and is thrown out of the house<BR>W gets children and house back 6 weeks later<BR>W has had it.<BR>H starts calling w and tries to act like he is back in love with her<BR>W falls hook line and sinker.<BR>H records all the conversations and tries to use them against her<BR>H closes out all bank accts and steals tax checks<BR>H forges W signature on check<BR>H finally exercises visitation after 3 months<BR>W finally gets first child support check<BR>H starts drinking heavily...and drives children in car<BR>Children are scared to death of him<BR>H spanks, screams, holds down, slaps, belittles, controls, doesn't feed, neglects children to the point that the youngest has bruises and rash on rear from wetting pants so often<BR>Childrens counselor gets involved and tells attorney we need GAL<BR>GAL is decieved by H and believes that I am using the children to get back at him<BR>Children don't want to go with him...cry when with him<BR>H claims PAS Parental alienation syndrome<BR>Custody evaluator gets involved<BR>She claims H is using all of this to justify his affair<BR>Tells me he is an alcohol abuser and tells children that he needs anger control classes and supervised visitation<BR>In the meantime children are depressed and stressed out<BR>Children miss a lot of school<BR>That is held against mom<BR>GAL report comes out and it says oldest child is angry and that she has no reason to be<BR>Mother is using children too much for a support system<BR>Recommends H gets custody and home<BR>H doesn't want children...tells custody evaluator he just wants them for 6 months to a year and then will give them to me because girls need to live with their mom in teenage years<BR>H refuses to go to couseling and tells C/E that to her face<BR>C/E tells him is an angry person<BR>C/E tells me in front of H that things look bad for me because children do not like him<BR>H gives her my journals...that were stolen from my house<BR>C/E reads them<P>Now I am losing custody...because they can't understand why children do not like their dad<P>I have done nothing wrong.<BR>Sure it could go on and on<BR>Much was left out......but nothing that is bad on me.<BR>H is being vindictive<BR>H just wants house<BR>H has told girls they are pieces of sh*t and he can't stand them<P>But financially he better able to care for girls so that is their total claim now.<P>He is correct....he is financially better off than me.<P>Nancy<P><BR>

Where is the proof of neglect and abuse by H? Has that been brought up? Why would you lose custody if H admits he doesn't want full custody? Has social services made a visit during H's visits? If so, they would have seen what was going on (a surprise visit). People don't get thrown in jail overnight for one harrassing phone call. They are charged with harrassment and a court date is set. Either there IS something going on that we aren't aware of.. or whoever is in control of the custody evaluation isn't doing their job. I suspect it is a little of both. Good luck but if you really want your kids back.. you will be a little more aggressive and stop taking your H back.<P>

Cam,<BR>Sorry but the social service system sucks too! My BEST friend has twin step-daughters who were abused by their mother and an older brother. Would you like to know how many "surprise" visits were made? NONE! They had to call for an appointment. Very rarely will social services make a surprise visit. And do you know how many chances were given to the mother? Endless. I myself saw the bruises on the girls faces. Pictures were taken, they were taken to the doctor. nothing. Now the girls have had headlice several times since Thanksgiving. Nothing has been done. <P>Social services does not always do what we would like them to do!

Cam,<BR>I beg your pardon...I was arrested for her alledging I called her at work and said You Whore. I called her when I found the number on our cell phone bill to find out who the number belonged to. No harassing there. Nothing said...just asked why her number was on bill. Her H called me to talk about cell phone bill. In March of 1999, H came home from work upset that she is bugging him. He said she won't leave him alone. Pulled the ole....If You Love Me you will ask her to leave me alone. I did. She did talk to me and that was not harassment. H is mad because now OW husband knows about them. She had plans to divorce her H. Now they are nixed. <P>Where is proof of abuse and neglect?<P>Taped phone conversations where H is screaming and telling kids they are worthless....telling me I am worthless...pieces of sh*t.<P>Telling children their mother is a deadbeat. Police report and picture of 7 year olds wrist. Children telling police, school officials, counselors and GAL about their father.<P>I do not keep taking him back. He has been gone for almost a year.<P>Verbal and emotional abuse are hard to prove. It does not show up in bruises and broken bones.<P>The 3 of us attend Domestic Violence classes.<BR>Maybe many court appointed people and welfare people should too. You would all learn alot about what verbal and emotional abuse do to a person. It is so disgusting to be revictimized over and over again.<P>Where is H proof of PAS?<BR>No one seems to care about that.<BR>I could claim that too. When I was homeless for 6 weeks I was not allowed to see or talk to our children that whole time. H would tell me no and say nasty stuff that is recorded right in front of children.<P>I don't need to convince you or anyone else about any of this.....because there are 4 of us that know the conplete truth. One is lying and the other 3 will live with his lies the rest of our lives.

Mental,<BR>It's proof enough for me!! I believe you!! I know how the system works!!<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

And by the way....I am not trying to take custody away from him. He is trying to take mine away. I have never kept the girls from him or have never not allowed them to talk to him. I am simply trying to get on with my life and heal from all of this. It is pretty hard when he won't quit calling and harassing me. When he won't just let me live a quite and "normal" life. You see, according to the GAL I need to get on with "my" life. I guess according to my stbx and her....I need to screw anything that walks in front of me....I need to go out everynight and drink myself into a stupor.....I need to call him at late hours and tell him off. Sorry, not going to happen. I really don't want much to do with him. Just when it comes to the girls.

Mental, That is what I am saying. If there is so much proof of your H's horrible actions, then drag it into court and settle this once and for all. If you are sure this is going on, then fight for your kids. If it were me, I would kill him before I would let him have my children. That is what mother's do.. they fight for their kids, no matter what. As far as you getting arrested.. I am sorry, but the correctional system does NOT put people in jail for making harasssing phone calls, especially ones that aren't recorded. There must have been some other allegation along with it. I feel sorry for your situation.. but stop blaming everyone else. Obviously you were dealt a crappy hand, but there IS some of this in your control. Use it to better yourself and your kids. Good luck!