<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maya:<BR><B>Hi EM .... sorry to see you getting blasted so bad. There's no use in beating a dead horse, but those still in pain don't see that.<P>And GIRLFRIEND, Mia was w/o phone service for an entire weekend, as TL was clever enough to do it on a Friday. Affair or no, she had NO reason to take that high school action. Her absolute and total hate of Mia has affected her THINKING .... I shudder to think that she has the ability to put an innocent child in danger ... it's probably best she doesn't have her own kids .... she's very irrational .... has no regard for life in general.<P>At any rate, what's done is done. We can stop beating up EM for his actions ... right or wrong ... it's DONE now. TL agrees that it's best and frankly why would EM bother to argue that point?<P>I wish EM and Mia the best ... it will be a hard road with many death threats I'm sure, but they KNOW that already. I don't envy them ... <P>I just wish TL would get some friggin' counseling and medication.<P>That is all.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maya,<P>I'm pretty sure I haven't had a disagreement with you on this board, and I don't want to start one now. <P><B> But </B> I would like to ask you to re-read your post. I'm sorry but IMO you just beat up on TL as badly as if not worse than some of the posts directed toward EM that seem to have offended you so badly.<P>No, I'm not saying what TL did was right, however I do understand the feelings of desperation, helplessness and out and our pain that can cause a person to do things that make no sense.<P>I am the one who turned my h in for traffic tickets he had when he left me for the wildebeast and used her name to do it.<P>Why ? I was desperate ! They had no -phone, I figured if he went to jail and she didn't hear fronm him for a day or two she would take her trampy butt off down the same road he picked her up hitch-hiking on.<P>Was it smart? No. Was it right ? No. He does know I did it, I told him I did later. He understands why I did it.<P>Like I said I don't want a fight with you, TL hasn't even posted to this thread, and I really see no reason to kick a woman when she's down. <P>If I offend you, I'm sorry. But I felt like someone should say something before things get any uglier.<P> <P><P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

tryingto4give - I'll answer your question - EM started this post because I asked him to read some of the posts here and if he wanted to he could write about his feelings or whatever. I actually told him he probably would get some pretty good, well meaning advise but I guess I lead him right into the lions' den. Oh well. <P>For what it's worth, I don't feel badly at reading some of your responses that are directed at me. I ignored EM pretty badly and acted like a crazy woman. Somehow I can't bring myself to say I feel bad about my behavior. Maybe I'll learn this forgiveness thing eventually.

Well, TiredLadys post wasn't there when I read this and decided to post. But I still stand by what I said. There is no need to kick her when she's down. <P>Hi TL, I will be praying that this gets a little easier for you. I know the anger and the urge to lash out and return pain for pain is strong. <P>I think you realize what you did got you nowhere. As someone said earlier in this thread ,( only it was about EM, I feel it's only fair to apply it to you too. )<BR>"What's done is done, it's over." Everyone has paid a price, so don't beat yourself up anymore . <P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

Deb....I agree. I think that it is unfair that TL has to be beat when she is already down.<P>TL....I hope that you don't think that you are to blame for EM having an affair, are you? From what I'm reading, you keep defending him. When is having an affair ever right? IMO, and "technically," he's still in one!<P>In addition, I'm curious...why did you have EM post here to justify himself? TL, did you have him come here because you are still hoping that there can be a reconciliation?<P>I hope that you aren't mad at reading what I am writing, because it isn't my intention. I just don't understand the purpose of EM's post.<P>It's as if he is trying to justify his affair by exclaiming all your faults.<P>How in the world is this supposed to help you??<BR>

TL... I am pretty new to this site, but I must say I was extremely impressed with your honesty.<P>Whether or not there is any hope of reconciliation with EM, I hope that all this pain and heartache has at least given you an opportunity to change for the better. It would be an awful waste if it didn't.<P>Best of wishes for your happiness.

B's Deb, <BR>You are just so wonderfull! What a great heart you have!<P>HEYA MAYA <BR>You sound like you could use some Anti-B***c Medication yourself...<BR>Regardless of whatever emotional problems you feel TL has. Actions have consequences.<BR>When Mia had sex with another womans husband<BR>She INVITED the consequences into her life, thereby placing her little child in danger HERSELF, (what a sicko!!!!!)<BR>Soooooo...TL acted like a phyco huh? Well last I heard, There WAS NO, "Treaty of Acceptable Behavior" toward someone who F****ed you husband. Perhaps Mia thought TL would rush over and serve them *Brunch? <BR>The point is EM had a loooooooog time to grow some gonads and walk. If he was *miserable* for so very long, well, it was his life , he had choices, he waited till he found someone to share his (MASSIVE) problems and THEN left.<BR>Can you spell COWARD? <BR>I'm being easy on you cause your obviosly not "the sharpest tool in the shed", but surly even you can grasp the concept that Mia brough this on herself by her OWN poor choices. If you go into a "Vipers Den" your gonna find "Vipers".<p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 23, 2000).]

TL, as usual, your honesty shows what kind of person you really are. All of us have made mistakes, but at least you are woman enough to not blame someone else for yours.<P>Girlfriend, your post scares me. Mia put her child in danger, because she had a affair with TL's husband??? That's going a bit far, don't you think?

There are those of us who have been around for kinda a long time, and remember the story of TL and EM (although he wasn't posting then) unfolding. Really, it's difficult to describe what happened without seeing it, having lived it, for yourself. These two people are so much further along than they were a year ago, and both are rebuilding their lives. Personally, I'm happy for both of them. <P>From a MB standpoint, it would have been nice if they could have worked it out. They didn't. That's what happens sometimes, which is why there's a divorce board now... <P>TL, I hope you're healing and happy, and that you've stopped this revenge business... you sound really good, REALLY good...I look forward to hearing from you again soon. <P>EM, you are decidedly silent. Still there???

Well, Girlfriend...<P>Hmmm... how to address this. Yes, sometimes Maya does need some of that medication. Maybe you can lend her that unopened bottle you have?<P>I haven’t been around much, so I don’t know your story. That’s OK; most of the stories here are depressingly similar. From your anger and irrational rages against an innocent child, I’m going to take a wild leap here and figure you’re the betrayed spouse. A betrayed spouse who, like Tired Lady, has every right to be angry.<P>Don’t let that anger mask out the one truism to be learned from this site: <I>Although the choice to have the affair rests 100% with the betrayer, the state of the marriage which led to that horrendous decision MUST be shared equally by both parties in the marriage.</I> Affairs NEVER happen in a vacuum. You don’t just wake up one morning and decide you’re going to hurt your spouse worse than you can possibly imagine. EM broke what we all consider the most important marriage vow, but he certainly wasn’t the only one to break vows in that marriage. I seriously doubt he was feeling very “loved, honored or cherished.” By no means does that make what he did right.<P>One thing you may not realize: Although it certainly was EM’s choice 100% to have the affair, when reconciliation was attempted, TL, by her own admission, did everything in her power to destroy any chance of that reconciliation succeeding. In THAT she was successful.<P>But you can learn from TL’s mistakes. Very few people here learn from the mistakes of others; these roads have been shown they need to be traveled down alone. Most people see the examples, read the words, yet still need to make the mistakes themselves. That doesn’t have to be. <P>Anger certainly has its place in the aftermath of discovery. It has NO place in recovery, either with OR without your spouse. I wish Tired Lady, Exhausted Man, and Mia the best and happiness in their lives. I wish that for you as well, and everyone here who WANTS to be happy.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

My, my, Girlfriend,<P>Anger is a feeling that makes your mouth work faster than your mind. I have not set out to intentionally or personally hurt you, or justify anything I have done. As a wise WHODAT said, the blame for being in an affair rests 100% on my shoulders. I've never denied accountability for my part in the breakdown of our marriage. Ever. It's obvious the anger, hurt, pain, are very fresh for you. I hope the healing process, or the recovery process, if there is to be one, begins sooner rather than later.<P>For everyone else, thanks for your insights, thoughts and opinions. Tired Lady and I talked last night about how everyone was confused as to why I posted this. It was her request that I read some of the things posted here and on the divorce forum and if I wanted, I could feel free to do the same. If my views have offended people, I appologize.

WhoDat,<P>"From your anger and irrational rages against an innocent child"<P>Perhaps you were the one who was *enraged* by my post. I wrote it quite calmly, *tongue-in- cheek*, actually.<BR>Also... in no way, did I express any anger toward anyones child. <P>I love the way people throw that *Displaced Anger* theory around when they're pissed themselves.

Several people have brought up the question of why EM, being so unhappy for so long, did not end the marriage before having an affair? This is the real question, isn't it? Why, if one spouse is so unhappy, do they not either get help and make an honest effort, and if that has failed, honestly end the relationship with the agreement between both that it will not work, without first getting involved with another person? Are the WS's so afraid to be alone and so insecure that they must have someone else before they can leave? Why not be honest, and leave with your honor, decency and honesty intact? Why is this so hard? Does personal responsibility, accountability and decency mean nothing any more? I must conclude that this is a low priority for a great many people. If you care about yourself and another person you would wish to be involved with, don't you think it is important to start with a truly clean slate, not one tainted with lying and cheating? Is that the legacy we wish to leave for our children? Remember, if you invite someone to cheat with you, what you end up with is a cheater. If you cannot honor your marriage vows in a current marriage, what makes you think you will honor them in another when the going gets tough?? And if your partner in infidelity did not respect your marriage enough to turn down an affair with you until you were free to be involved, what makes you think they will honor a marriage with you?<P>Also, what is it that is the difference between spouses who don't have their needs met and have an affair, and those who do not have their needs met either, but do not resort to affairs? It is just selfishness, and lack of regard for the partner, or are there other things at work here?<P>EM, I would very much like to hear yours, or anyone else's thoughts on this. Thank-you!!

Lady M - you and others have asked why didn't I just get divorced before an affair??? Well, 1st of all before my OPINION is stated, I want to make sure it is understood that I take 100% responsibility for starting the affair in the first place. But you ask why and here are my thoughts on why that happened.<P>I did'nt actively wake up one morning and say, gee, "I've had enough years of this day in and day out feeling of just being a paycheck here. Think I'll see what I'm missing..." No. It wasn't like that at all. TL and I have a very, very long history of my talking about our marriage, how something was missing. TL always thought this was very typical in marriages - settled in the day to day life and expect nothing more. No more feeling really appreciated for simply just being me, for providing a very comfortable lifestyle for the family, or very simply just loving me enough to hear "how was your day?" Or a kiss hello or goodbye....I didn't stop doing those things. Not until we got to a point quite a few years ago that even TL admits she just didn't feel any amorous feelings. Just those of wife, mother, and occasionally lover. (we're talking spring time only on that last one) While we both struggled with these issues, I was thrown into a very involved, complicated engineering project at work. That's where I first talked at any length with Mia. She was also very involved in this project. I began working very, very long hours to meet deadlines. Not to mention I had just found out about the $30K or so in debt we had gotten into via credit cards (unknown to me)<BR>I spent many hours revising drawings and plans with Mia. We became co-workers with the same deadlines, then we became friends, lunch pals, dinner pals - basically emotionally together. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't enjoy it. I was appreciated for the first time in years.<BR>**(by the way, this is totally outside the appreciation my children feel for me. I have always loved how they love me like mad!)**<P>So, Lady M, what started out as two people working like mad scientists to meet a seemingly impossible deadline, turned into a relationship that was not by any stretch of the imagination planned. Yes, indeed I could have stopped it. But by this time in my marriage to TL neither one of us had any hope of things turning around for the better. Even after a year or so of Mia breaking things off with me to work on the marriage, it actually got worse instead of better.<P>Someone said earlier in this post that there are some marriages that just won't work. Ours had gotten to that point. Now it's time to learn from the mistakes we both made, and especially I made with the affair, and move on to a better and healthier relationship.<P>I don't know if I answered any of what you wanted to know, but I think I gave it a good shot.<P>EM

Hi EM ( and you, too - TL)<P>How are you both doing?<P>I want to first - THANK YOU both for encouraging (TL) and posting (EM) this thread....<P>We very seldom get to see both sides in a situation where an agreement is made NOT to stay together and I think that it is very beneficial to see that even though there may still be some issues on both sides that hopefully you will each address, you both CAN actually be very civil and considerate of each other.<P>Take notice of that everyone.......<P>Do not judge....learn from their example!!!!! Neither one of them make claims of the righteous - I certainly don't see where we should be doing it for them!!!!<P>They are sharing their story with their individual thoughts and insights.....they are BOTH very caring people to do that with others so that maybe....just maybe.....SOMEONE may benefit!!!!<P>Can you be that someone? Does anything that they have gone through fit with your own situation? Are you looking at BOTH points of view in your own nightmare?<P>This is why these boards are so wonderful.....How much we can learn and understand through others trials and tribulations!!!<P>BIG HUGS to both EM and TL!!!<P>Sidenote to Lady M...what provacative questions you have raised. Would you take your post and make a thread with it? I think that it would be very beneficial to have a discussion going on those questions.....<P>It would need it's own thread though because I am sure that it would be long and NOTABLE!!! (you know how NSR just LOVES to find notables!!!! LOL!!!!)<P>Thanks if you would be so kind!!!<P>Hugs to all,<P>Sheba<P>

First of all I am on the side of the fence of a betrayed spouse...but My brother in law had an affair and married his OW.. she was married to his best friend's wife.. talk about betrayal. So far.. they are happy together.. I hoe the y stay together otherwise they have hurt an awful lot of people for no reason at all! Anyway.. my new sister in law has told me that she had the affair because it was the only way she could have left her husband.. she wasn't happy with him.. but not miserable either .. he was a nice guy.. but just not cutting it with meeting all of her needs. Her current H, my H's brother apparently meets more of her needs and she says she is much happier with him. She is very sorry that they hurt so many people with their affair and she seems to have reached a point of internal peace on the subject.. but she is very aware of her blame in the triangle and does not shirk taking responsibility... she says she wishes she had been stronger. She feels that if a similar situation were to arise today that she would handle it differently.. but she says that because she feels that she grew up after her divorce. I think that many people just are hanging out in their marriages.. not happy.. not miserable enough to move for divorce.. or maybe staying because of kids.. and this spot leaves them vulnerable to new relationships. I am not the type that could do this.. whenever any man has flirted with me beyond normal social flirting.. I have always withdrawn.. started talking about my H... given very clear signals that I am not available. However, the person who gets into an affair sends out different signals, sometimes very uncounscioulsy..that is how it happens.. I do beleive that most of our spouses did not intend to hurt us with their affairs.. (there are few total jerks out there), but the majority just got in over their heads too fast. Where I get stuck is when they lie and cover up the affair.. to me that is totally unacceptable and just compounds the pain of the affair... If you are going to do something like that.. than step up to the plate of responsiblity.. either fess up and leave or fess up and work on things.. but under no situation is it ever acceptable to keep up the lies! That is where I loose my ability to be understanding... I deserve more than lies and deceipt.. evan if the lies are lies of omission... both are sins and both hurt!

It's been said many times here (almost exclusively by betrayeds) that the spouse who was profoundly unhappy should get divorced before having an affair. That it would be the 'noble', 'honest' thing to do.<P>Well, that may be so, but it's probably the most unrealistic thing I've read in this forum. How many people would end even a crappy marriage, if they didn't feel (even in fantasy) that there was something better to go to. Geez, some women who are getting physically abused still stay in the marriage, because they don't think there is anything better.<P>And so, the marriage limps along, with one or both partners extremely frustrated, until a catalyst (OP) appears, and the spouse decides there IS something better. Does the catalyst cause the frustration? No. That was there long before.<P>But if there was no catalyst, there would not be the feeling, delusion, fantasy, whatever, that there was someone better. And so, the familiarity and the mutual obligations (kids, bills, etc.) would tend to hold the bad marriage together, despite the frustration.<P>So, saying that one should get divorced before starting an affair, seems a little absurd to me. <P>

Um... Girlfriend?<P>Perhaps when you chide someone for not being 'the sharpest tool in the shed', you should use your spell checker. (Four misspellings in one sentence.)<p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 24, 2000).]

Doug,<BR>grasping at spelling errors is petty but this:<P>"So, saying that one should get divorced before starting an affair, seems a little absurd to me" <P>Is a testament to your intelligence. <P>Thank goodness YOU have a spell checker! <BR>

Hi all -<P>Sheba, thanks for inquiring how I am doing and for actually finding something worthwhile out of this post. There are definately two sides to any relationship and I've shared more of my side than EM, but unfortunately, my side was always angry, vindictive, destructive and non-accepting of my part in the destruction of my marriage. (that is until quite recently)<P>Doug, you have pointed out something very, very true...the catalyst did not cause the frustration in the marriage, it was already there. Very true. Frustration was apparent in my marriage for many many years. I chose to turn the blind eye.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tired Lady:<BR><B>Hi all -<P>Sheba, thanks for inquiring how I am doing and for actually finding something worthwhile out of this post. There are definately two sides to any relationship and I've shared more of my side than EM, but unfortunately, my side was always angry, vindictive, destructive and non-accepting of my part in the destruction of my marriage. (that is until quite recently)<P>Doug, you have pointed out something very, very true...the catalyst did not cause the frustration in the marriage, it was already there. Very true. Frustration was apparent in my marriage for many many years. I chose to turn the blind eye.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TL,<BR>I have been praying for you in this respect. I read so much hurt and anger in your posts and said to myself that you sound like the person my W has painted me to be, which is why she still feels she was justified in her actions to have several affairs.<P>I AM PROUD OF YOU!!!!! I hadn't brought it up until now because I was praying that you would be able to see that you played a part as well. My W still wants to put the majority of the blame in my lap. I accept full responsibility for my part. I persevere inspite of her treating me exactly how she says I have treated her. I continue to treat her as the gift from God that she is (yes, she is because He asked me to marry her--long story.)<P>Hang in there and take care of yourself. You are well on your way to healing the enormous pain that you feel.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net