I'm not sure about the "aggressive" part (maybe sometimes), but my H definitely qualifies for the passive label.<P>Comes from whole family of conflict avoiders, who are all very passive (til they leave).<P>He has been in counseling for depression, and overcoming this passiveness and being willing to risk showing who he really is and what he really wants is where she is focusing effort. And, I see progress...<P> <P>

Thanks for the definition. yes my h is definitely that way. I love categories, we all seem to fit into one profile or another!<BR>Can the codependant be happy with the P/A? I don't know.<P>I also have had that darn dinner scenario!! We do it all the time... We have company in from out of town, he calls a very expensive rest. and of course, they are filled, so he pouts about where to go now. "Where do you want to go, Where do you want to go?" We go back and forth with it all the time. <P>This last weekend, with his sis visiting, he got so disgusted that for the first time in his life, he simply said he would not go out and we could go where we wanted. The kids were by that time also acting up because of the tension they felt, so they were denied going too. He stayed home and babysat while I took his sis and her H to dinner to meet their cousin and D! I was taking out HIS family! Isn't that a scream!! I had the best time ever. <P>For once he did not go to a rest. and sulk and grump all the way through the meal, while the kids got worse and worse(reacting to his sour mood.) And drink until he got drunk and then put us all at risk on the drive home!!!<P>Now that I know, What do I do with it or him now? I am not supposed to be getting into his personality, or his recovery--he has to see it, and do something about it himself. I cannot do it for him. I do not want to be his psychiatrist(but I'll tell our therapist ) She can tell him(if she agrees.) <P>I have to learn, C-Dep is a hard thing to deal with, I am new at it. I cannot fix him, or our marr alone, or blame him for behavior patterns I have no right in trying to change! I need to let him be him, and decide for myself if he is right for me also. Tricky...huh?

My H seems to fit the profile too, except he openly expresses his anger in certain situations.. like driving. Maybe that is the only time he cam let it out and that is why it is so intense then?<P>We have had that conversation about movies and dinners and vacations. Or pattern is, I ask what do you want to do... He says I dont know "what do you want to do?" I state an idea or say I don't know and he doesnt respond. Then when the time approaches that we really need to make a decision about going we repeat the pattern and this time I do give a suggestion and say is that OK and then I go ahead and make plans for it. <BR>Several times I have not really gotten an answer from him and think we are still undecieded, then I hear him talking to someone eles telling them we are doing this. <P>Then in this whole affair thing he comes up with the "everything for Lora, nothing for H statement". So I guess he did feel that he had no imput. I guess i need to read that book. Can you tellus more about the spouses, tootrusting?<BR>Lora

My husband left feeling like he was powerless and he did "everything to make me happy." I look at decisions that he is abdicating responsibility for now: moving into our house, getting another dog, marrying me in the first place (which he says was not a wise decision at the time), and various other things. The problem is that those decisions were made at his intitiation. Now he says he felt pressure? Isn't that like changing the rules in the middle of a game? How am I supposed to know what makes him happy when he tells me the opposite?

For those who are unsure of what passive aggressive means, it refers to someone who is outwardly passive, but behaves in ways that have aggressive motivations. For example, if I am working on a project with a partner who doesn't like my ideas or style or whatever, rather than talk to me about the differences, she may secretly sabotage the project. On the surface, she may appear cooperative and "passive", yet her secret behaviour actually reveals her "aggressive" motivations. It's basically a dysfunctional way of showing your hostility rather than confronting issues head on. <P>My STBX is certainly passive aggressive, at least when it comes to relating with me. He learned it from his family! His whole family relates to the world in this way.<P>But I don't think that it is necessary to have this trait to be a betrayer. I think that being passive aggressive makes it more likely that the person will try to resolve difficulty with infidelity though. I think in my H's case, his affairs were a passive aggressive way of "getting me back" for all my perceived failings. I think it was his way of covering up for the lack of communication on both our parts. I think that because of learning this way of relating, it was all he knew how to do -sadly.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited September 23, 2000).]

I can hardly believe what I'm reading. I thought my H was a one-of-a-kind. He fits the description of the PA male perfectly. I, too, would like more info about dealing with this kind of personality. I'm going to have to get that book!<P><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers,<BR>KristyAnn

Read my post, "P/A-a new website"<P>I did not name it well and I am not sure it will attract the readers.<P>(Like anyone here at MB needs another website on phys. A's!! )<P>: ops::

Really good thread. Does make me wonder, though, whether the P/A male is not necessarily a personality disorder but rather a result of the male socialization process within our culture.<P>Typically, American (maybe all, I'm not sure) men deal with stress via the fight or flight response. And, for men, 'fight' usually means aggression. Couple that with the fact that most little boys are taught early on that it's not acceptable for them to hit little girls. Or exhibit any type of violence towards females, in general.<P>So, when they get really angry at their wife (or women, for that matter), they flee into P/A behaviour, rather than running the risk of losing control and perpetrating some type of aggression.<P>I'm just basing this on things that my classic P/A H has said and done. He is a master at bottling up his anger. But, I have witnessed a couple of occasions where it has bubbled up to the surface and he has become so enraged that it was frightening to witness. It appeared to me that he was completely out of control. Consequently, I got into the habit of P/Aing as well because I was afraid of provoking this fury inside of him.<P>It seems to me that P/A is very, very common, especially with men. I can't help but wonder if it's because men generally don't seem to have the skills to be able to "fight" without becoming violent. So, they avoid conflict, altogether.<P>Our counselor zeroed in on H's conflict avoidance tendancies (with me) right away. She pointed out to him that in his position of authority within his job he had to deal with conflict all the time. She said, "So how did you do that?" He replied, "I just dealt with it."<P>So, if they can deal with conflict in the outside world, why can't they successfully do it with us???

sidney,<P>I think it is because they don't care if their co-workers, or the outside world, love them, but they are afraid that if they display anger at their spouse, or vice versa, their spouse will stop loving them. <P>My son (14) has said to me that even though I have told him that I love him all the time, even when I am angry with him, he doesn't really believe it. He actually believes that people stop loving during the time that they are angry. Sometimes I think that believing that love and anger can not co-exist is also more common in males.

Wow, Nellie, that's really interesting! I never thought of it in that way-- anger and love not coexisting. <P>Often times, I get the feeling that my H doesn't think he's entitled to feel anger towards me. And, now, it's gotten even worse. He feels so guilty for what he's done. And, the fact that I've hung in there makes him feel even worse. The way he talks about me, one would think I'm the next candidate for canonization. He says stuff like, "You've been the perfect wife, you've done nothing wrong, you are the nicest person I've ever met, you deserve much better..." I almost get the feeling that he wishes I would kick his A$$.

I pointed out to my H once that from my point of view, it was easy for the OW to accept and live with certain problems he had because she did not have to bear any of the consequences of his thoughts actions like he and I did. He said he felt that there might be someting to that.<P>For example, when my H got tired of his job, she encouraged him to quit even though he did not have another job lined up. When he called me to say he wanted to quit that day, I encouraged him to think about it first and then if he still felt that he wanted to quit, then he should quit.<P>Well of course I was construed as unsupportive while she built up as the understanding one. But at the end of the day, it would not effect her. <P>She would not be the one to have to deal with the daunting task of collecting her self-esteam and undertake a job search nor of the problems associated with his lost income. In fact she had something to gain. She also disliked the work environment and the manger of the company.<P>Eveyone was encourageing my H to quit and had he, they each would have gotton that "stick it to managemnt" sence of satisfaction without risking anything of thier own - her too. I believe that he was too upset at the time to see this but it was clear as day to me. I just wanted him to do what he wanted and to think about what each choice would mean to him.<P>This very same person who was so"supportive" of my H told her own H that she was mad at him becasue she could not quit becasue he did not make enough money:0 Now there is someone who takes responsibility for herself! <P>From her point of view it is not her H fault that sho could not leave when in fact she could have taken a temporary job in order to allow her to leave. She is an administrator and would have no problem finding an agency to place her but instead she blamed her H for not making enough money. Kind of makes you wonder what she would have said to my H if she were in my shoes the day I got his call from my H about quiting.<P>But... my point is that it was easier for him to talk to her - it let him avoid facing the consequences of his thoughts and actions. If I did not like it or if I disagreed, it was just too much for him to take. If only he would have told me then just how much he wanted to quit. Instead he felt I made him stay because I did not give him the same response she did.<P>Acacai<BR>