I posted on your other thread, but I feel like I need to post on this one also.<P>I am what some would consider a very bad Christian. I was raised with Christian beliefs and I have a good deal of knowledge about Christianity from a historic and spiritual viewpoint. But I do NOT believe that God or Satan takes "control" of anyone's life. God has given us all free will and we have to exercise it...<P>But I also know something of addictions. I believe that many of us (if not all of humankind) are "addictive" people, and that some of us become addicted to less harmful things than others. Some of us are obsessive about hobbies, some are compulsive, some of us spend too much time at the firehouse, some of us spend too much time at church, some too much time at work. Some of us have such low self esteem that we are constantly using other people to help us feel good about ourselves.<P>We are taught by today's popular psychology and popular religion that we can blame all the bad stuff on addictions or our upbringing or on Satan. But, the bottom line is, that unless a person is truly completely and totally insane by all standards, even an addiction involves choice and personal responsibility.<P>This is where I get so incredibly frustrated by the whole "Satan had control of me" thing! I'm betting your husband is seeing a Christian counselor, as a marriage counselor who was not specifically a Christian counselor would never bring Satan up as a possible participant in the break down of a marriage. Dr. Harley is obviously a Christian, but you will note that NOT ONE of his articles talk about leaving the marital situation up to God, nor do they credit Satan with any participation in marriage. Blaming Satan is relieving your husband of the responsibility for the horrific choices that he made - and absolving you of any possible responsibility you had for the condition of your marriage.<P>In some ways it sounds as if you are seeking validation for your choice to end your marriage even though your Christian beliefs say that you should not. Personally, the requirement for adherence to rules that make no sense whatsoever is part of the reason I am a bad Christian. But, I have chosen to stand for my marriage because I made the same vows that you did.<P>I am not better than you because I am standing. I am not better than anyone. But I do feel as if I have made a more informed choice than you are making at this point. And I admit I might be completely off base with that thought. I feel, based on the timeframe you have given between D-Day and now, that you are still REACTING emotionally instead of ACTING with your head.<P>Why is it so important to divorce now? Why not, as one of the previous posters said, invest the 6 months in REAL marriage counseling/therapy/rebuilding - with a counselor who believes in Christian values but does not credit Satan with the ability to make our choices for us.<P>Believe me, you will NOT be teaching your children anything good about relationships if you divorce without a true attempt at reconciliation. You will be teaching them that when the going gets tough, you run in the opposite direction. Granted there are times when running is the RIGHT thing to do, but you have not mentioned any physical abuse to your or your children, and I personally believe that is the only time when someone should run and not look back.<P>Please understand I am NOT trying to minimize your betrayal or your feelings. I do refuse to validate you however.<P>I'm sorry if it seems harsh. Sometimes that's the way things sound when they are contrary to what we are feeling or thinking.<P><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

I guess it really is too late for me-<P>I appreciate what all have you responded to me- but now I feel it was a mistake to even come here because you don't know my situation completely, you don't know me- you don't know my STBX- and all of the complexities that go along with it all...you don't know the state of my heart spiritually, nor the history behind my decisions or his- I happen to believe that Satan and God DO play a role in this- and I also know that blaming them on either side is an excuse and both my STBX and I need to stop that.<P>Our relationship has always been bad- it went from bad to worse to horrible- and I have no idea why other than he was to wrapped up in himself- I asked him quite often- "why did you even marry me if you don't need me or want to be single?" I never got ANY response- only a growl... Can't fix what I don't know is there!! There was never ONE day of happiness- and really, I feel like a pathetic loser that I just didn't divorce him long ago because of how he acted towards the children and I...<P>I have given myself an opportunity to reconcile- THESE PAST FIVE YEARS!! Everytime I asked him to join me in counseling, etc... If he would have even come to me, of his own accord, and sought out counseling and admitted his mistakes and sinful choices- he got ratted out- and I think he is only sorry about that....He was no where near telling me anything until I received a call from one of the many OW.<P>I don't belong here- I'm sorry- I won't be back-<P>I have no interest in saving this pathetic marriage- I have no energy to do anything else but work on myself at this point...It is sad to see that infidelity happens so much- maybe someone should let all of these pre-marital counselors that they aren't really doing a great job!!!<P>Good luck to you all...and goodbye<P>TLFM

TLFM,<BR>I'm sorry you feel like you don't belong here, as we all try to help each other even though we all have different circumstances.<P>In one respect though, perhaps you are right about not belonging...because this site is for people who DO want to save and rebuild their marriages, not for those who know for certain that they want to call it quits.<P>And yes, it's true we don't know the "whole story" of your marriage...but for those who come here and post often, we do learn most of the "story" over time. You seem to be rather judgemental in terms of your beliefs about affairs. Your response to me made it obvious that you felt you kept to the moral high ground by not having affairs although you cited 'ample reasons" for having one, had you chosen to do so. One thing that I have learned here is that everyone has a different threshold for what they will endure in marriage or in life in general. Some people here accept and live in circumstances I would find unbearable and simply couldn't live with...but, we're all different. However, we don't try to judge those whose standards or values are different than our own; we just offer comfort, advice and support to each other.<P>From the way you describe your marrriage, my biggest question is...WHY'D YOU MARRY THIS GUY IN THE FIRST PLACE??? It sounds as if the relationship was ALWAYS unhappy. What even attracted you to each other??? Were you happy when you were dating? And if it was always that bad, why on earth would you choose to have CHILDREN with this man in this terribly unhappy marriage?<P>In any case, I am sorry you feel you can't come back here. I think you could stand to learn a lot and get a lot of support here, but it does require an open mind and willingness to hear other perspectives than your own. <P>Best of luck to you in creating a new and happy life for yourself. And if you ever get married again, shop around longer.<P>calla

TLFM,<BR>One more thing: from reading your posts, I keep hearing you say that you couldn't find ONE reason, either serious or superficial, for your H to cheat on you.<P>Apparently you are the world's first PERFECT WIFE. I don't think anybody here, from either side of the camp (betrayed or wayward) would lay claim to such attainment. None of us are above human failings, shortcomings and imperfections. It's just a matter of knowing and recognizing what they are.<P>calla

Calla-<BR>I will have to say- these last responses to me got me in a bit of an ire- especially since I was reading what you wrote on another thread from YOU about "how long do you work on this"- and how you are having thoughts that are drifting back to the OM because of your husband's indifference-<P>so i can point some of those questions back to you????!!!!<P>Why did I marry this man in the first place- I was 19, he was a great christian man (so I thought)- he came along and swept me off my feet so to speak- and also fell in love with my 8 months old son....I had my misgivings, but ignored them because I was young and too emotional (and too worried that no one else would want me because I already had a son!)-<P>So why do YOU stay married to a man who has no interest in you?? Why wouldn't you have divorced him before you started your affair and then moved on into a relationship with someone who you claim loves you and wants to be with you??? If your husband doesn't- and the OM does- what is keeping you there???? If your husband isn't interested- and is making no plans to forgive- move forward, etc.- why are you staying? It is very obvious you don't want to...<P>I also DO NOT lay claim to being the perfect wife- I WOULD NEVER DO THAT- and that isn't what I meant!!! My threshhold for emotional turmoil and rejection is no greater than others here- but I WOULDN'T CHEAT- I would have given my spouse the courtesy and dignity- no matter what an [censored] they are- to be informed and free!!!! Was I wrong to think I deserve the same common courtesy that one would give a friend- to be informed and be able to make a choice or have a say in how I spent my time/energy!! NO- Instead- I wasted 6 out of the past 10 years of my life!!! He never even gave me a chance and he readily acknowledges that!! I wasn't trying to say I was perfect!!!<P>My STBX comes from a long line of stifled, repressed unhappy individuals- and he decided to walk right along as they did- I kept thinking that if I could just make him happier, if i could just be more beautiful, if i could just give him wonderful children (hence my decision to have two more by him), if i could, if i could....none of it worked!!<P>Just because I was trying to explain everything i was striving to do- doesn't mean i was laying claim to being a perfect wife!!!<P>But excuse me- i don't see in literature, the bible or otherwise ANYWHERE that it says- you have to be perfect to have a faithful spouse, otherwise it is ok for that spouse to cheat!!! My thought is- if you don't want to be married- LEAVE- your spouse deserves the chance to be happy and informed- I never got that chance until now...<P>Look into your own life!! Why would you keep striving for perfection- isn't that what you are doing now?? And if you were to describe- as you did in your other post- all you are doing to be the wife your husband can love- I wouldn't have taken it as you were claiming to be the perfect wife!!<BR>I would take it that you were trying to be your best to meet the needs of someone you love- why didn't you extend that same courtesy to me, and take what I said for that???<P>I don't know why you have so much hostility towards me- you are a cheater- not me- I am dealing with MY OWN cheater that treated the kids and I UNACCEPTABLY and now I'm trying to figure out what to do! You situation is not mine- and you are putting me into the same category as your husband when I don't even know you...I explained my "you cheated it's over" stance- and all you took away from it is that I think I'm perfect????<P>I understand that boards like these are full of different backgrounds and perspectives- I'm just not sure why you came onto my question and then attacked me- I have not done that to you.<P>TLFM

Sad N Lonely and Terri<BR>thanks to both of you for your posts-<P>I just wanted to say for the record-<P>I'm not fixated on blame or point fingers either at him or back at myself- it just seems like so many people here blame themselves, and are trying to take the power into their own hands to get their WS BACK- it's almost like a game or something!! I see red flags in a lot of posts on this site!!! I'm not trying to shirk my part in this- but I do know I tried everything possible!<P>I know that I had responsibility in this- but I also know that my situation is a thousand times different than most- and I literally tried EVERYTHING I could for A LONG time- nothing worked- and honestly, I should have left him long ago...<P>I just feel sad that so many people are blaming themselves here- and if they aren't blaming themselves- they are still the ones LIVING IN MISERY because of a WS-<P>I'm sorry- but the day I let my STBX go and live with another woman- and I KNEW ABOUT IT??? That IS a form of people blaming themselves, and trying to take responsibility for getting another person to react in a certain way- <P>I'm sorry it came across as though I was fixated on blame...<P>Thanks again for your insight- I just wanted to explain!<P>TLFM

TLFM,<BR>You appear to have a lot of hate and bitterness in you and many would say rightfully so. However and whatever you choose to do with your marriage I would strongly encourage you to get your own personal counseling. Just having an impartial educated in this area person to talk to and help your understand what your husband has done and what you are feeling will help ease your mind some.<P>The hate and bitterness will consume you and you will end up a lonley bitter old woman. Do not be the victim twice. Nothing I can say to you will make you change your mind. Only God can change your heart. I pray God will bring peace and clearity to your mind so you may sleep once again.<BR>

TLFM:<P>I see a lot of anger in your posts. Given the emotional slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (to cite Mssr. Shakespeare from Hamlet) you have endured, that is understandable. Yet the anger is not entirely directed at your WS; I see much of it directed by yourself to yourself.<P>Let us differentiate here between spiritual healing and marital healing. Both have roles to play in helping to recover from affairs. The emphasis here is on the marital aspects, particularly those put forth by Dr. Harley. The whole point in Marriage Builders is about preserving a marriage. Many of the threads talk about faith and religious tenets as well; but that is not the main thrust of what MB is about.<P>You lombast marital failure vehemently, yet you have come to a site where it is the stated goal to avoid marital failure. You cite marriages you have seen fail, how reconciliation didn't work, etc. What know you of the guiding principles here? Have you in good faith and conscience tried to implement them?<P>I concur with Terri (and, no, T, you are not a bad Christian): I cannot contenance validating your choice to end your marriage. Not only because it goes against the grain of what MB is about; it goes against what is fundamentally Christian. First of all, God gave us free will: we accept our God out of free choice. No matter what our transgressions, He forgives unconditionally. Unlike humans, He can love the sinner and despise the sin. As for Satan ... he may cast temptation in our paths, but he didn't make us do it either: he plays by the same free will rules, and is perfectly content knowing humankind's propensity for losing themselves to those temptations. He does a booming business this way, without ever having to resort to beating frail ol' humans directly over the head.<P>So, to say "Satan made me do it" is a cop out. What is the more apt "Christian" picture here is this: we fall to temptation, losing ourself in a fog of our own creation. In our fog, we lose touch not only with our spouse, but also with our self and our God.<P>But God's hand is still there when the fog lifts. As is His love. Humans, however, do not achieve this level of perfect love. We strive toward it: the MB tenets are one aspect of this (sans spiritual trappings), and hence we can implement these tenets (which, if you analyze them closely, are ultimately fundamentally Christian values), and through implementing our Plan A's and B's, and embracing the concept of meeting emotional needs, implementing the rules of protection, honesty, time and care, reach out in love to restore our marriages.<P>Adding a spiritual dimension does not hurt at all. Applying MB tenets AND Christ's teachings adds a further dimension toward achieving the success which we desire.<P>So set aside your anger and hurt (although that is difficult, I know); do you desire this divorce because you are completely depleted and, despite the tenets of faith, cannot muster enough love to proceed toward salvaging it? Or is it anger and bitterness that drives you, and you are seek this divorce as a means to emotionally protect yourself?<P>Clearly, you are leaning toward the later. I would urge you to reread Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair, and His Needs, Her Needs. Your husband needs help as well; and not just by the clergy. He absolves you of causing the affairs (he and the OW were at fault in this regard), but that is not to say that the state of the marriage was not partially your doing. The serial nature of his affairs indicates he has a mental illness, an addiction ... that, too, was part of your vow: to love in sickness and in health.<P>So do you go against the tradition against which you have raled, and make that earnest effort? Or do you just wash your hands of the whole mess? Obviously, we here at MB hope you choose the former. And to that end, we are always here to help.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

I do feel bitter- (hatred- no)- my last couple of posts? yes I was angry- because I feel like I have come to a board that is very judgemental towards me, and it makes me defensive...that's why I wasn't sure I belonged here anymore? Am I a bad person because I'm in pain and the one who was betrayed?? Apparently.<P>I feel bitter that I had every reason to cheat- but loved him and didn't, thus wasted 10 years of my life spinning my wheels for a man that didn't want me.<P>I feel bitter that NOW he loves me and the kids think HE'S the good guy- when he left me holding the bags for so long and basically being a single mom while he had his fun.<P>I feel bitter that everyone keeps telling me that it was my fault and that I somehow caused this to happen to me- and in my heart- i guess it must be true because I THOUGHT I was being the best wife I could be, but apparently I'm just a loser that doesn't deserve anything good and decent and loving.<P>I feel bitter because no matter what decision I seem to make for my life- it never is the right one- so then i am afraid to even MAKE a decision- because I have enough pain to last me a lifetime!! (And my decisions always have to change because of every single outside circumstance- too much to explain here but it is UNBELIEVABLE!)<P>I feel bitter that I came here looking to be able to vent a little, and instead get blasted by everyone that comes to answer my questions!!<P>I don't feel hatred, I feel grief and frustration- and I WON'T end up a bitter old woman- because I am 30- and the whole reason I am going to divorce my H is because I have three beautiful children that I want to give an example of strength and independence to- <P>I have no one to talk to- counselors cost $100/hr- and due to a move, insurance changes, etc....I AGAIN having to wait on outside circumstances to get it going! (plus last counselor I had just sat there and was totally worthless- never said a word- and was impatient to have me leave,thus giving me more of a complex and rejection than i started out with)-<P>I will tell you this much- what I am bitter the most about- is that virtually every person that has responded to me here, has made it sound like I'm ridiculous and selfish and stupid- yet I can go to another related site- where people AREN'T professing to be christian, and be treated respectfully and kindly....<P>I am already struggling with my faith after serving God my whole life (Im 30)- and then to be made to feel WORSE when I leave here???? I don't understand what is the matter with me that I don't deserve some kindness? That does leave me bitter, I suppose.<P>It is really very frustrating. <P>TLFM

TLFM:<P>No one is hating you here; and not one of the respondents has said the affairs were your fault. What WAS said is: in a marriage, the condition of the marriage is a responsibility of both parties.<P>This does not profess to be a Christian site, though many on this site are indeed Christians of one denomination or another.<P>No one, in reading over the posts, has blantantly attacked you. Nor is anyone denying you the right to vent here (many of us do). What struck a chord among most, I think, was the vehemence with which you lashed out against what this site is for: the preservation of marriage. And even in that regard, no one lashed out at you in a hostile manner. Many, including myself, stated our views forcefully: but you seem to misconstrue their intent. Rather than drive you out, we are trying to get you to see what is available to you: that your marriage needn't be over.<P>If you decide that the marriage is in fact over, there is still much on this site to help you grow and to understand.<P>As for struggling with faith: it is something that cognizant Christians, indeed of all faiths, do every day, especially given the world in which we currently find ourselves. Perhaps it speaks more of our faith that we do question, explore and expand, than to blindly accept fundamentalist dogma.<P>Godspeed on your journey,<BR>STL

Seen The Light-<P>Your post to me just reiterated the fact that I have come here and have been judged-<P>Because I have rejected what is "fundamentally christian"- and decided that 10 years of wasted marriage, rejection and multiple multiple times of sex with over 9 people from my H are grounds for divorce????? How is trying to reconcile with THAT fundamentally christian??? How come I am then, a bad christian- but Terri is not?? Because my H broke his vows and I won't settle for that??? I guess I'm not clear on that.<P>My reasons for divorcing him are definitely BIBLICAL grounds- It is all thru the old and new Testaments- I was born and raised in the church- and it is not like I'm divorcing him over someting like money- or "falling out of love"- it's ADULTERY!!!!!<P>Oh- and one last "bitter" feeling that I have- because of HIS unfaithfulness- If I abide by the biblical principle- I HAVE TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE ALONE- or I too- will have committed adultery!! And when did I exactly get a choice about that???? So- not only have I had more pain and betrayal then anything imagineable- I also cannot even take a biblical approach to it because I will am ostracized from the christian community as well????? And oh my future- well- that looks real attractive- I'm 30- so according to the bible- I get to spend from now til the day I die ALONE because of what he has done!!!!???? Yet everyone here is adding insult to injury I'm sitting here crying and not one damn person on this site has a kind thing to say other than I MUST BE BITTER AND ANGRY- and for THAT- I am bitter and angry!!!<P>I don't expect that you are going to validate my choice- that isn't what I'm asking for- and I need to just leave this particular board because personally, I have no respect for a bunch of people that are pathetically trying to win back the love of a spouse that doesn't want them- if my H doesn't want me- he doesn't have to have me- I will move on with my life alone- and be the best example I can to my children possible.<P>And in Christs OWN WORDS- I am justified to divorce him- <P>I don't understand how that makes me less of a christian- <P>I'm sorry- I said I wasn't going to come back here- I try to- and I just end up more hurt than when I started...<P>TLFM

STL-<BR>what i don't understand- if the condition of the marriage is the responsibilty of both parties- how should i have FORCED him to respond to me again??<P>from the first year of our marriage- i repeatedly asked him to go to counseling with me- i talked, he slept- i wanted sex, he slept, i wanted church- he golfed- i left him alone- he watched tv- i changed my looks my everything in every way to please him- he growled at me and pushed me away so he could "get his dinner"-<P>how can I be responsible for the collapse of a marriage when i was married to at totally unwilling participant? was it because i stayed this long? was it because I was so sorely lacking?<P>I don't understand what i did wrong that he would choose to hate me so- and that God would hide his face to my pleas for almost 6 years...<P>I can't stop crying and I'm so sorry...<P>TLFM

Well I have read nearly 500 posts in a few months and I dare say the amount of posts saying it is the it is the betrayeds fault isnt even and measureable amount. It seem's you have a lot of self precieved guilt.<BR>I am the betraying spouse and for me to even think that my husband is somehow to blame would be rediculous. However an environment was created that allowed an affair to exsist. This environment I do not believe can be created by one person. Although it only takes one devastating choice like the one i made to turn an affair breeding ground into a full blown colony of deciet.<P>You are not to blame and I would like to see the posts in which you feel you are being blamed. I think there is many a betrayed spouse on here that would take the poster to the perverbial woodshed.<P>Again I say do not be a victim tiwce.

Please do not quote the Bible unless you quote it in it's entirety. You do not get to pick and choose the scriptures that suit you.<BR>You have many choices before you. They are not one's you like but you do have choices. I dont recall God saying that having a personal relationship with Christ would be easy in fact he says just the opposite.<P>Your emotions are so typical now. KNow that you are not alone. Being angry and striking out at everyone is so normal for the devastation you have been through. Reading your posts racks me with guilt because I have caused my husband the very same feelings. God changed my husbands heart. Our marriage is going to be a better one. I only wish I had felt this way before the affair.<P>You are loved by many! You are a child of God and he will neevr leave you nor forsake you. WIth your background I know you know this. It is hard right now to accept Gods love. It sounds like your husband is still in a kind of fog. Only the fog has changed shape.<P>You are right in that we dont know you or your story but that is why we are here. We learn over time and with sharing.<P>If you truly wants Gods best as he does with you then cry out to him. I mean literally SCREAM out to him. BUt remember he answers in a still small voice so you have to listen very carefully.<P>I offer you my prayers and support 100%. You are not judged by me. I will only speak for myself and hope your in return will not generalize everyone here.<P>Let Jesus carry your burden, thats what he does best.<P>HUGS!HUGS!HUGS!

As I read over your posts again I am truly heartbroken for you and for the pain I have caused my own husband.<P>Your husband and myself are totally to blame for our selfish actions, no one else. Please do not give up.<P>

Hearts Cry<BR>Thank you so much for your responses to me- you are kind, and have shown that in your sensitivity to my pain and frustration..thank you...<P>I don't mean for it to seem like I'm picking and choosing scriptures- if I was- I wouldn't pick to be alone the rest of my life because if I remarry than I commit adultery!! LOL<BR>I don't pick and choose for what suits me- I just know that Christ did put the out in there for adultery- and I'm afraid that I'm going to go ahead and take it, because this is the ONE thing that I knew would destroy me- and sure enough.... <P>I am fully aware that God's plan is for marriage- and for a wife to be married to her husband until he dies...I am aware of ALOT of things scripture says- and I am also aware that I can not do this.<P>You have no idea how neglected I have been, and now to know that he didn't want me- after all of that- and to be cast aside so much!! I can't even express how frustrated and dead I feel inside....<P>I can't stop crying tonight- I am sick of being hurt- I'm sick of being the one making apparently bad decisions- I don't expect God to say "yes- here have a great wonderful life"- but if you just knew what these years have been- you would understand why I can't do this....<P>And now, to think that I'm just a big huge sinner because I finally made a decision to move forward- knocks me backward about 10 steps!!!<P>I don't know why God let this all fall to pieces and that His timing is to have my H love me NOW- but when I weigh ten years against 4 months- and the nature of the sin- I just can't do it...<P>I'm so sorry too- I can't expect anyone to understand- no one in my family does- they have reconciled, they take my decision personally, my own father and sister were the cheaters in their relationships, so I'm not even free to express my frustration and hurt in front of them either...<P>I have had nothing but my H and children at me 24/7- and I'm so tired- I feel like I could just die- I wish I was just dead!!<P>It's like I'm a great big joke- the last laugh is on me-<P>All I would have liked is a chance and a choice- now I'm carrying so much more baggage then I can handle- and God is so far away from me- it's hopeless...<P>Thank you for listening- I can't even see the screen because I'm crying-<BR>thank you<BR>TLFM

TLFM:<P>You have not been judged, at least by me, and I think, by most here. What I do see, however, is a lot of people giving you the benefit of their experience.<P>As far as biblical grounds: remember that we were redeemed from the judgmental God of the Old Testament by Christ. Hmmm. My biblical scholarism is flagging, where did Christ state that "TLFM is justified in getting a divorce?" Christ, if I recall properly, was about love and forgiveness, and about redemption.<P>Pride is equally a sin to adultery as is deceit as is murder. We all sin, but only humans categorize the sin. To God we have transgressed, and like any father, the transgression of a child causes Him pain. Yet His love endures this pain. Hopefully you see the analogy I am drawing here.<P>Yet humans, flawed as we are, are not capable of God-like love. We have our limits, we have our frailties and we are susceptible to human emotions--all the baggage of the human condition.<P>You are no less a Christian than Teri, nor I. (You misconstrue, I think, my aside to Teri that all people don't think her a terrible Christian.) To God we are all equal, despite the differences in how we approach our faith. The fact that we recognize and venerate God of our own free will makes us equal in His eyes.<P>Only YOU can validate your choice: what I wasn't going to validate was some of the logic and the vehemence and the guilt. This site contains both WSs and BSs, and occasionally OP as well, all who are here for pretty much the same reason: the preservation of marriage. Hmmm, a trinitarian analogy?<P>As for having to spend the rest of your life alone, where did you come to that conclusion? Even the Catholic church grants annulments within certain parameters. Most other churches are more liberal than that. Most don't care how many times you've married. To remarry after a valiant attempt to save a marriage is not a mortal sin. So fight the good fight. If it meant to end, it shall end. However, that does not mean that you cannot remarry within the perview of the church.<P>On to the state of marriage: you cannot "force" a spouse, a marriage is a joint venture. However, if he truly was that way from day one, then I wonder why you remained in that situation for so long. Do not equate domestic balance with the wrongness of your husband's acts. How much of his poor choice was the result of conditions that were not fulfilled we shall never truly know: it is sufficient that you recognize it. If, indeed, you did EVERYTHING, then I can understand where you are coming from. However, that is rarely the case. Marital disharmony occurs because both spouses allow to occur.<P>From what you have presented, it does not appear that you were lacking. If the situation was as abusive as you portray, then perhaps you did become co-dependant and have stayed too long. It is not unusual for that to occur. As for him hating you, did he express it in that fashion, or is that implied from behavior only?<P>One last note: God did not ignore your pleas. I firmly believe he hears all prayers. The problem is, we often do not recognize His answer. We cast our eyes heavenward and look for some sign, some miracle. God does not put His miracles where we cannot reach them: as humans we need to look under our noses. And do not forget that God does not necessarily grant WANTS, He grants NEEDS.<P>So a kind word ... I thought I made that clear by expressing that we were here for YOU. But to put it more plainly, most of the folks here on MB do CARE about the people that come seeking help. But as with answers to prayers, you have to recognize it when it is extended.<P>Godspeed and prayers,<BR>STL

TLFM,<P>I understand your frustration. My previous marriage was very similar to the way you describe yours. I was aware for most of the marriage that my husband had several affairs. I do not feel at all responsible for his affairs. No one is responsible another person's actions. After 14 years of trying to make the marriage work I left. <P>You are understandably upset about your husband's affairs. Perhaps his faithfulness was the one thing you thought you had. And now you have lost even that. You, nor anyone else, deserve this treatment.<P>RE: "What i don't understand- if the condition of the marriage is the responsibility of both parties- how should I have FORCED him to respond to me again??"<P>. Fundamentally my XH is a harsh, mean person who was emotionally and physically abusive. There is probably nothing you could have done to get your husband to respond to you except perhaps kicking him out. I did that at one point with my XH and he did improve quite a bit after that. But hindsight is 20/20. There is no insurance that it would have worked in your case.<P>I know that there were things I did not my previous marriage to contribute to the state of the marriage. For instance I took too much responsibility for finances (I put him through medical school.), for most things domestic. In the early years of our marriage I did not stand up to him when he was out of line. When he wanted to help his old girlfriend study for her exams I believed that he was trustworthy. I did not know how to put the proper boundaries in place to protect our marriage. I also did a very selfish thing. Early in our marriage I gave birth to stillborn twins. Because of complications during the pregnancy I cannot get pregnant again. I was in so much pain and wanted a child so badly that we adopted a son. I selfishly brought a child into what I already knew was a bad marriage. My son has suffered terribly for my selfish actions. He had choices. There were plenty of other couples who wanted to adopt him. I love my son with all my heart and soul and cannot imagine my life without him. But I know that my adopting him and putting him through this was a very selfish act. I could go on and on. So no, I do not take responsibility for my XH's affairs. But I do take responsibility for my own contribution to the misery I endured. And like you I get angry to think that I actually wasted that many years of my life with a man who out and out told me that he hated me repeatedly over the years.<P>By the time this marriage ended, I had no love left for my XH. In MB terms I his love bank account with me was seriously in the negative. Much as it seems yours is. You are the only one who can make that judgement.<P>On March 22 of this year, I found out that my new husband (our first anniversary was on 6/6) had several affairs during our entire engagement and the first 9 months of our marriage. I this case I take absolutely no responsibility for the state of our relationship and subsequent marriage. He did what he did because of unfinished business from his previous marriage, a prolonged depression and his A.D.D. Yes he had unmet needs but I cannot even start to meet needs that I am not told exist. On the other I love him (again his love bank with me was full on d-day). He is fundamentally the most loving, sweetest man I have ever known. So I feel that our marriage is worth at least one very good attempt to save it. When I married him I promised to love him in sickness and in bad times. Well I view his affairs as a period of sickness. A period of spiritual and emotional sickness. He fell from grace with himself. He stopped all contact with his "friends" as soon as I discovered the affairs. We had a very short Plan A and went right into recovery. Our love and relationship has grown leaps and bounds because of what we have learned here in MB. Because we are both working very hard in this recovery.<P>By the way, just to help you have the entire picture here. My current H was married twice before and in both cases his XW's left him for other men. So he has also been in the BS position and has suffered as much as any of us.<P>What I am saying is that each situation is unique. For that reason each of us has to make up our own minds on what is right for us. I can understand why you would not trust our husband enough to continue. I also think that there may still be some love in you for him. And that it is causing you a lot of inner turmoil.<P>But tonight is not the night to sort all of this out. It seems that tonight you need to cry out eyes out. Perhaps even scream at God for why he let his happen to you. I remember doing that. I remember crying and scream that I wanted to know what I had done that was so terrible that I deserved this punishment. You have done nothing to deserve this any more then I did, anymore then my H did in his previous marriages. You have lived the best way you knew how. Life is simply not fair sometimes. Sometimes it just flat stinks. <P>By the way, have you read the book "Love Must Be Tough" by Dodson? He is a Christian writer. In the book he speaks the where in the Bible it supports divorcing a spouse who is "not Christian". And that remarriage is all right in the Christian faith. It is a good tough love book and gives very good Christian guidance. It may put you mind at rest. You do not have to be alone for the rest of our life and remarrying will not be adultery. Your husband effectively broke the marriage covenant when he committed adultery. You are free to remarry once you obtain a divorce. I you are Catholic, you would also need an annulment.<P>Just for tonight do not try to figure anything out. Just for tonight, feel your pain and express it.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Dearest TLFM:<P>First of all, I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this pain. YOU ARE A SPECIAL PERSON and no one *deserves* to be cheated on. PERIOD. <P>Even The Great and Powerful Harley, himself, describes an affair as the ULTIMATE, MOST CRUEL OF ALL, LOVEBUSTERS!!!!<P>Nine affairs? That is hard to swallow...no wonder you hurt so badly. And, yes, I'm certain that you do (somewhere in your heart) love your H. I'm certain, just as there are many things that you currently despise about him, that there are also many wonderful reasons to love him.<P>We all deserve love. We all deserve kindness. <P>Please keep in mind that it is Harley's belief that the majority of affairs *happen* because of unmet needs. REPEAT: This is Harley's theory. I know (from extensive reading) that you can pull several other well researched books from the store shelves and find yourself with a dozen or so different theories. One theory that comes to mind is Dobson's theory that men cheat as a result of feeling trapped...and that the secret to *getting your man back* is to set him free.<P>It's all apples to oranges. Who knows? Who cares? When you're at the point where you're so raw, open, and bleeding from the gash wounds...does it really matter if the weapon was a butter knife or a chain saw? <P>Give your mind a rest. You've been dealt a huge trauma. Give your brain a chance to make some "sense" of it all. In time, everything will become clearer. As hard as it may seem, try not to make a rash decision.<P>If your pain is too constant, to overbearing, attempt to separate yourself from it...at least long enough to regroup. I wish I could watch your three children for you tomorrow afternoon so that you could take some much needed "you time".<P>I hope you see this message. I really wanted to simply refer you to a specific article written (I think) by a psychologist. The article is based on extensive research and outlines many reasons why people choose to have affairs. I found the article very, very comforting in a time when I was having trouble grasping that my H's affair MUST HAVE BEEN SOLELY A RESULT OF MY INADEQUACIES.<P>Hoping that this article brings you a little bit of peace: <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com/glass.html" TARGET=_blank>www.smartmarriages.com/glass.html</A> <P>Peace, ~Marie<P><BR>------------------<BR>I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. <P>The Bible<BR>Matthew 17:20<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited June 25, 2001).]

TLFM: Back to the top. Because the Glass article really is worth the read...