<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What we do is choose how to behave, and experience the consequences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Choose to keep your marriage, and experience the rewards of a fulfilling marriage, after you learn some basic marital skills.

It is extremely difficult to continue making this effort when every fiber says who wants to live like this. Ok, maybe one cannot form a relationship with another while married and expect any good outcome, regardless of viability of marriage, even though it involves the same human responses that led to marriage in the first place. <P>Maybe marriage is a life sentence rather than a place you should want to be, maybe a spouse is more akin to winning the lottery than it is free choice made everyday. I don't know, but I do wonder why even asking the questions means one is defective, in a fog, depressed, and so forth. That I am even capable of thinking such questions, much less ask them, seems to prove I am unworthy, I feel like a piece of property, or a recalcitrant mule, needing to be whipped back into shape, is that what you (W and rest of the bs) want? Compliance? The he*l with my feelings? I can't even voice my feelings? Trying to deal with this as best I can is not good enough? I am just an evil insensitive man? For the record, I have not said any of the things regarding ow to my w that she said. The crap about running to my ow, and all the other fantasy stuff she said is unfair, I do not talk to her like that, and I deeply resent it when she dumps on me in this way, avoiding the real issues I want to figure out. <P>Yes, I have strong feelings for someone else, it serves no purpose to pretend otherwise, so I have not lied about that. For many, perhaps their focus on another turns out to be some tawdry using thing, from one direction of another (or both), that does not mean all are. W demonizes this woman who has done nothing wrong but be human, as have I. She is a decent, caring, honorable, Christian woman who any of you (including W) would take an immediate liking to. She has never at any time done anything but encourage me to do right by my W, and say she cannot see any option but to remain married whether we are happy or not. So why did we "choose" to behave inappropriately (from a social standpoint)? <P>That is part of what I am trying to understand, and just telling me I am wrong and such feelings don't count is not very useful. If true then no feelings count unless society approves of them, is that ok?

sad-n-lonely:<P><BR>I hear you. You have "true love" for a honest, Christian woman. You cannot fathom ever feeling like this towards your wife. I hear you loud and clear.<P>Please listen to me. While I know that you want to believe that you are "special" and that this affair is different---it's not. It's classic. Your feelings are real now---what you feel for the OW is "real" love. But if you continue down this road, in 5-10 years you won't feel it any more. You'll feel resentment. And restlessness. And all the things you're currently feeling in your marriage.<P>So, you are "wrong" in what you're doing. But you don't want to miss out on the feelings. I'm telling you that you can create the feelings that you want, with your wife---with the help of counseling with the Harleys. You may not like taking directions, or being told to do this and that... but then, I bet you didn't build your car from iron ore and raw petroleum. Harley's methodologies work well for a vast number of cases. You don't have a whole lot to lose from committing to a recovery period of 12 months.<P>No one can convince you on this. But look back at yourself right now---objectively. Is this the kind of man you are? Do you like your behaviors, and your decisions? You've done them in the pursuit of self-gratifcation.<P>Maybe it's time for a change. You can get the gratification in your marriage through working on the skills. It's not trivial---but it'll be a lot more satisfying.

I guess it doesn't surprise me, some of my posts are deleted. No I don't like my H lover at all. She is not a christian, by no standards having 2 affairs involving sex, emotional, spiritual bonding. But my H still loves this woman with all his heart. <P>Yes he is in deep FOG. Yes, his marriage to Debi will be worthless in less than 5 years. The passion will be there in the beginning, but remember we are getting older every second. <P>Husband does not want to do what the Harleys have said. He wants to do it in his own time. Like everything else. He has good traits, but this is not a good trait. It puts a lot of constraints in all of our lifes. <P>I probably will not post much longer. H seems to hate the truth I tell. He protrays himself as a very nice decent man, which he is in someways, but like all humans he has great faults. Therefore, my words are not being accepted and wanted by my H to you folks.

thinker,<P>Some people simply need to put their hand in the fire to find out if it's burns. No amount of prior warning will dissuade them.<P>I am sorry that you do not feel comfortable here. Am I right in understanding that SNL deleted your postings? Or did you to placate him? <P>My heart goes out to both of you. He is obviously struggling with something. Depression is hard to heal without professional help. <P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

SNL,<P>In every aspect of our lives, we have more than two choices. You have the same here. Your posts portray that you only have two choices: to leave your marriage and be happy with the OW or to stay in your marriage and suffer the rest of your life.<P>The truth is this: you have another option - to CREATE the kind of relationship you want - a marriage that is loving and fulfiling. <P>You have been here long enough to know that OTHER PEOPLE on this board have ALREADY DONE JUST THIS!! They have taken a so-so marriage, that was torpedoed by an affair, and turned it into a thriving and passionate relationship. OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE IT, so it certainly IS POSSIBLE.<P>You have to choose it. K and others have pointed that out to you. If you WANT it, and put your efforts there, get the skilsets you need, develop and implement an appopriate plan, you can CREATE the solution you so desire. Likewise, if you want it to fail - IT WILL. <P>I say that as long as you are in contact with the OW, your marriage will most decidely fail. In effect - you have already chosen! So call the spade a spade.<P>I am not trying to diminish your obvious pain. I have posted to you before and follow your story. I know your angst is real. However, your W and children didn't choose your actions that led to this pain, and they suffer too. If you really care about your family and the OW and her family, and truly want to be happy, then CHOOSE to be happy and do whatever it takes to FEEL HAPPY. Others have done it, why can't you???<P>Praying for your family,<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

I asked my wife what she thought was deleted (she is not very used to computer), I don't think anything has been. In any event I have not deleted anything of hers.

I have found that nothing was deleted. But H has had me sit down and restate a post before, deleting things I have said. I don't have him revisit his posts and delete or change. I feel we should with care and thoughtfulness beable to say what we feel. He sure has. <P>So that is why I felt there was someone missing with my posts. But I have also found that I lost information that I have typed and don't know how I have done it. Still working on educating myself with the computer.

I have found that nothing was deleted. But H has had me sit down and restate a post before, deleting things I have said. I don't have him revisit his posts and delete or change. I feel we should with care and thoughtfulness beable to say what we feel. He sure has. <P>So that is why I felt there was someone missing with my posts. But I have also found that I lost information that I have typed and don't know how I have done it. Still working on educating myself with the computer.

SnL--<P>I've said this before...you could be my H...do you also have the anger he has? <P>He is so mad that he is trapped by marriage and family...he thinks I don't hear him.<P>I don't want to be married. I don't want to be married. I don't want to be married.<P>You don't hear me. You don't listen to me. You don't hear me.<P>I don't want to listen to you. I don't want to listen to you. I don't want to listen to you.<P>If I have to come back here to you and kids, I will be miserable and you will be miserable.<P>One of your posts talked about you and thinker talking about feelings....about how hurtful it was...<P>My H tried to do the same thing tonight...accuse, blame, hurt...(see above.) I said...you are giving me generalities..I want specifics...H said...I don't want to talk to you....you just want to change my mind.<P>I said, you are right. I do. Put him off guard...he expected what I usually say...NO. I want you to do what is right.<P>You said in one of your posts...is there a switch in my head I just flip to change my mind...or something like that...yes, there is....It is called belief. It is called faith. <P>My H described for me the angry outbursts I used to have...he said it like it had happened very recently...I asked what he was talking about...when had that happened. He had to admit that it hadn't happened recently. <P>I AM CHANGING THE TAPES of our relationship. <P> One of you, thinker or SnL, needs to do that...and point it out when it happens. You both have your life filters on right now...you anticipate and expect certain behaviors from each other and that will continue to occur until one or both of you make a conscious decision to change the tapes. It is not easy...I have to count to 1000 sometimes. Sometimes I start out in LB mode, take a breath, retract, retreat, start over....but even that is good, because H can visibly see what I am doing.<P>As to 'throwing' away marriage....perhaps it is a colorful cliche, but you are certainly saying that it is easier to walk away and start over than to do what it takes to create a marriage that satisfies both of your wants and needs.<P>Only you two can determine the outcome and how the quality of your lives play into that decision.<P>You know the old Ann Landers Question...Would my life be better/worse....<P><BR>Take care, you two are in my prayers,<P>Cali<BR>

CAli, yes we bothneed to change our filters and etc. I have decided last night that this is obscene. We will not get anywhere, H is not going to change, so it will be myself and the Lord. <P>Thanks Cali, you are a godsent. Continue praying for us. I will start the Plan A again, try to not LB again and move on. It is hard when it is one sided for the caring and protection of your spouse, but I will try again and see if I can set of goal and maybe surpass the goal. I am only human, asked God repeadedly last night to give me strength and control to make this goal. <P>

Dear SnL,<P>You say you are a rationalist, but you did one of Dr.Laura's TOP TEN STUPID THINGS A MAN DOES TO MESS UP HIS LIFE by marrying your wife in order to rescue her!?! Who did you think you were? GOD?? :-/<P>In any case, here you are and needing clarification for how you got yourself into this mess and with children now--future generations to potentially screw up--in your big picture. What to do?<P>To answer your questions:<BR>1. Heck no, I would definitely not want a marriage without mutual passion nor would I want a marriage where we consented to live as roomates. BUT, the warning signs are all posted prior to marriage. We all knew what we were getting into beforehand whether or not we chose to face reality. Think back! Did you have any doubts--if so, then that was the major warning signal!<P>I have to give you credit tho, at least you admit to your wife that you don't want to be there, that you feel emotionally dead, and your A was for your own emotional survival... YIKES! <P>2. My spouse HAS told me before that he didn't love me, that he made a mistake marrying me, and would be making plans to leave me. My on-the-spot answer? "Okay. If you feel that you would be happier without me and without the kids, then fine. I won't try to change your mind. The important thing is that I love you and I want you to be happy." <P>OH! But by the next day my attitude had changed considerably. I told him that I would NOT be helping to support him while he was planning to leave me so he should probably just get out NOW... <P>My first reaction was calm and accepting, shock followed immediately after, then a twinge of despair which lasted for a minute--until I prayed, but by the next day, I was angry because of wondering what "we" would be doing living together (as roommates?) in the meantime? I thought it best that if he wanted so badly to leave me, then he should just spare me any further pain and just go! I was like, GET THEE GONE! <P>I decided that if I was going to be a single parent of 3, then so be it. I was not afraid to be alone because I still had my faith in God. I know that God is my Provider with or without a man and my security is in God, not in marriage, and it will always be. <P>I determined that since we were ALL 5 covered by the Blood of Christ and on our way to heaven that nothing the enemy could ever do to us (in this life) would change our destiny in God. Sure, I felt mixed emotions, but mostly regarding how OTHERS would view me and my situation. Faith is faith and emotions are emotions--they are two different elements--so you can't try to figure faith out like you can emotions. Trusting God means we don't have all the answers.<P>The next day, I got up early, got myself and all the kids ready for church and we left the house a wreck. When we returned, I noticed that everything was all neat and tidy? I thought, "Hmmm... This doesn't look like a man who is planning to leave?" And, he didn't leave. <P>3. I believe that we make choices daily whether or not to keep our promises, regardless of what they are and to whom. If we lie to ourselves, then how can we possibly be truthful with others??? <P>I try to take my words seriously so I am very careful about what I agree to. If I have doubts, I would rather ask someone to wait until I think about a thing rather than to commit and renege because my FEELINGS changed.<P><BR> <P><BR>

I am the wife of Sad_n_Lonely. Thank you for your post. My husband is in a deep FOG. Last night was ugly and he did apologize for all the name calling. But left with a despairing statement. I knew yesterday something was not right by his attitude and mood. He didn't talk verbally to his OW yesterday. All along he has been telling me it was only voice mail, liar. That was why he was out of sorts. I felt it, tension was higher, and I couldn't figure out what it was. He told me later he didn't talk to her once yesterday, only voice mail.<P>I have said the same thing. I would rather have H leave than stay in a marriage he is unhappy in. He should of left a long time ago, before the kids came, or even after the first pregnancy. But he helped create 4 beautiful, smart wanted children. Yes if he leaves, the pain will be excruciating. But as I have read, it will take 2-3 years for the pain to subside and you feel you can move on. I am so thankful I did not have an affair, lose God in my mind and eyes, and be with OP who is as deceitful as the WS. The WS has a lot to learn, a huge amount of trust to gain back, and to have to face their family and friends with this immoral situation. Thank you Lord for giving me a healthy brain and showing me that the path you set is the right path.

Thinker,<P>I'm posting this to you alone.<P>I have been in your shoes -- my ex-H cheated -- and, in fact, he did so many times. I don't even count the little indescretions with the pool lady, the PTS lady, and a few others that were not "affairs" but daliances, of sorts. (and so that we're clear, pool lady came to me and told me to tell my then-H to leave her alone).<P>Okay, now that you know I understand:<P><B>Do you want to be right, or do you want your marriage?</B><P>You are speaking from your pain, and yes, you are "right" in what you think. But what will that gain you?<P>You are very angry, and that's to be expected. But this back and forth stuff you two are doing is VERY BAD for your marriage!! It isn't helping, is it?<P>Plan A would feel like manipulation now, I would suspect. But have you ever TRULY TRIED IT? <P>I feel for you... honestly... but something has got to give... ONE OF YOU must make some first moves - some permanent first moves -- not just words, but actions.<P>Best wishes to you... try, try to let go of some of the bitterness... it will eat you alive. And your marriage will END, that much is sure... and I don't think that's what you want. Is it?

Yes, I want the marriage to work. But to this hour I don't really understand what I said wrong yesterday. My husband was very moody yesterday and I sensed the irritation that he was vibrating out. <P>I have been trying to do Plan A, but you know what really hurts is when my husband looks me in the eyes and says I don't love you I love the OW, the pain is so excruciating that I just want to die. It is like stabbing my heart with a knife. I have gotten used to most of the other OW things he does, but that still hurts tremendously.<P>I did well yesterday with Plan A. Make him eggs and toast, for breakfast. Worked on paperwork, ordered invoices, made financial calls. He just kind of complained about things that were not relevant to this marriage. I felt at the time he was letting off steam, therefore, I just sort of let it go. When he gets like this, you have to be very careful of what you say.<P>So I think I should get some credit for the effort. It is hard living with someone whose mood swings are so diverse. I am looking forward to my consultation with Jennifer. I e-mail her quite regularly to update her on H actions and what he is doing. I am actually an easy going person, as you have seen to live with H for all these years. I let a lot of things fall off of me for the sense of why get an ulcer. Its his way of dealing with life. He did have a hard childhood, dealing with an alcoholic father and alcoholic <P><BR>grandfather. His mom did the best raising 2 boys with very little child support. His dad is a loser - big time. Husband did not have the support for school activities, a parent to come home to after school. The 2 boys took care of themselves mostly, and my husband gained friendship with a neighbor family that kind of took him in. The neighbors mother had to take my husband to the hosptal because he put his hand through a glass door and was hurt pretty bad. They called my H mother and she came to the hospital. So husband feels abandoned and alone alot. That is why I feel he is a loner. He doesn't have any friend to talk to right now except the OW. He needs to gain male friendship and to have a special friend to talk to (not OW). <P>Hopefully, my H will be in a better mood today. I will see. I just got back from my walk with the dog. Exercise has helped me get through this, plus the extra bonus of weight loss. Didn't have that much to lose, but only have about 8#'s to go. I wish that my H would try to lose his weight, he has quite a bit to lose. He is 50 and with the extra weight he is carrying he could be a candidate for a heart attack, diabetes, etc. I've asked him to walk with me, but he won't. That was in our conversation last night, he doesn't feel like doing anything with me. We have been so far apart from each other. Raising 4 kids, was not easy, plus taking in babysitting and answering the business phone. I wasn't exactly sitting around on my butt. He was working hard at his job and the same with me. <P>Well he ever beable to look in my eyes and see love? Well he ever be able to see that the OW is not what he thinks she is? Especially the OW not telling her husband about the affair. Keeping the affair a secret is so wrong, and she will pay for it deeply one day. I know he is in a deep FOG and is looking for fantasy. But he has a wonderful family and wife waiting here for him.