Yesterday, our counselor put my WH on the spot and told him to either give up OW completely, or quit coming until he decides what he wants. Ugh... i thought I was going to melt into the floor. H decided to think about it. ugh.<P>I've been hurting so bad since then - trying to decide does this mean plan B? I don't think so, but just more to learn about plan A and to be careful with LB's.<P>OK here's my brilliant deduction. I've been so upset since then, thinking why did the counselor do that? - although I know it's necessary at some point, but all I could do was be mad that he did it. I just wanted us to keep going until the A died or H decided to commit. Well, someone posted recently that handing our WS books to read sometimes backfires and the WS uses what they learn in their new relationship with OP, which makes it grow stronger. Well, I decided that's what my H would do with counseling also if we continued while he was still in EA with OW! Wow! I immediately smiled and felt better! He was learning how to be a better person, learning about his weaknesses, and how to better fulfill a woman's needs, and then going and applying to his EA (or PA). (Well, if he wasn't doing this already, he would eventually....) whew! I feel so much better. Glad to end the counseling if that's the case. Go ahead and decide honey... if you want me, let's work on it. If not, then I'm not going to help you develop your EA!<P>Thanks to whoever posted that about the books. I think STL, maybe? I don't know why, but it hit me like a ton of bricks in the car on my way home from work. <P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Oh, Faith... Don't say that... My W has her copy of The Road Less Traveled with her this weekend which I said was a really good book...<P>I can just imagine the worst things involving epiphanies and self-revelations being bolstered by the OM... grrrrrr<P>OK, wait. If my W does that, well then it's just more fog. What's new? Somewhere in there the truth will stick, and one day she'll come back to it.<P>Or who knows, maybe it will make her see through the fog...<P>We'll see! Keep Plan A'ing...<P>-zen

True, so true, zen. Don't we just love the fog? Anything can happen in the fog... it just made me feel a WHOLE lot better about ending the counseling to even think that it's a possibility that I was feeding the A by continuing the counseling. Does make me wonder too about all the books, scripture verses, etc., that he has been willing to read for me. He has even explained 3 sermons from church that he heard and he applied them to his relationship with OW, and how he felt he was making the right decision by walking away from me into her arms. moose brain worms.<P>I hope your W will come out of her fog too. We don't know what they see in the fog. or what books, counseling, or even movies will do to them..... Remember the post by - ooh, I forget - the Plan B for 2 days and he came home crying because of the sweet card W sent him??? <P>You're right! Plan A away! We can do it! Hang in there!<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Yeah, but do you think the OW or OP will read it and act on it...unless they do, chances are things will still sour on them. My WH already bends over backward to see that OW is happy...she's the one who needs the help...so just so she doesn't benefit from counseling we OK...I think.<P>Faye

The problem with the fog is that one is never truly sure where things will echo, and when it does, what it is they will truly hear.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Wait a minute, Faith - do you mean you're going to end the counseling?<P>The counselor told him exactly what he was supposed to tell him. He/she did the dirty work so you wouldn't have to!! Yes, WSs can take any information and rationalize it to their current preference. But to end the counseling for this reason may be short-sighted. Don't do this without discussing your logic with the counselor. He/she may agree that further counseling is pointless until the affair is over, but please don't make this decision on your own.<P>WAT

Thanks, WAT. I see what you are saying. My post may have been a little fuzzy. The counselor is making my WH decide if he wants to pursue the marriage or the OW. He told my H that if he can't cut off all contact with OW, we shouldn't continue counseling. That we were wasting our time trying to fix the marriage if he was continuing the A. Then mY H said, OK, I will have to think about it. So, the ball is in H's court. If he wasnts to continue counseling, he will have to end the A. I realize that he may decide at this point, that he's rather stay in his A. I will continue Plan A as much as I can, and hopefully, he will decide to end the A and resume counseling. Does that make sense? I was just feeling good that I had looked at the situation in a different light, (thus my "brilliant deduction") because I was angry that the counselor had done that.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Yes, Faith, it makes perfect sense and your counselor is correct. The good part for you is, again, the counselor gave the ultimatum. Your H has heard it from someone other than you.<P>Now, work on your Plan A improvements and demonstrate your improvements to your H.<P>WAT

Sometimes I really wonder why all of us put up with this kind of behaviour from our spouses. Sometimes the logic is, for the children. If not for them I really don't understand why people put up with this abuse. Life is short. Why waste it on these selfish people? I realize this site is for keeping marriages together but sometimes we must all have this feeling of throwing in he towel.

Yes, Rodger. I understand your feelings exactly. Some people don't put up with it - that's why there's so many divorces out there. It's disgusting and it's not fair that we should HAVE to put up with it. Personally, (no kids), I have my list of reasons written down where I can see them and add to them as to why I AM fighting this fight instead of giving up. Every other hour, I have that thought of Why am I doing this? Why don't I just giv eup? Will it be worth it? There was a post recently with the subject "Why are we BS's doing this?" several people posted with their reasons. I also have in my head HOW LONG I AM wiling to hang on. I will not hang on 2 years. like some are able to. I'm not sure I can hang on for 6 months. Each person is different as to what they can tolerate, and every situation (WS) is different as well. I know that everyone makes mistakes, and I am willing to forgive my WH for his mistake and love him and wait for a reasonable amount of time for him to realize it and then make amends for it. I won't allow him to make the same mistake again and put me through this again - I know that also.<P>just the way I try to look at it. I love him, and can't give up on him yet.<P>Thanks to all...<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Dear Faith,<P>While some Ws's may 'try' to fit the square peg into the round hole (use plan A/b, counseling advice on the OP), it still won't work for their A. WHY? Because they are NOT married and those remedies are not designed to work in the fog. <P>Those techniques require honesty, truthfullness, trust and love. Hm..... well those in the A claim to have love but what kind? Nope, won't work. No more than 2 men who are lovers trying to get each other pregnant. What a Yucky and unnatural thought (sorry for the gory picture). <P>If your counselor is bad, get another. But the main purpose of the counseling to bring them back to their senses. Some try to implement plan A/B, oh it backfires. Let them try. You have nothing to hide. I gave my H lots of stuff from here, books and even counseling. H in turn gave info to OW, they tried. OW even plan A and failed. Then she plan B and failed. Oh yea, that's right, she was planning with the wrong guy, she should have been plan A or B with HER HUSBAND!!!!!! What a dumb OW. <P>Ok. Now for you. Go take care of yourself. Get a session or 2 with Jennifer or Steve. Have you read His needs/Her needs? Might be helpful. <P>Give you H all the info he needs, let them take it to where they want. It will come back. What you want out of all this is the truth. Right? Do you really want your H back if he truly does not want you? Or do you want your H back with him working on fulfilling your needs?<P>L.<P><BR>

I have read HNHN, but not SAA yet. Have studied MB quite a bit, but certainly not enough. <P>But I guess I am still a bit confused as to what to think then. My H shows no remorse, still sees the OW, has moved out, won't tell me where (apartment), hardly ever calls, hardly ever answers my, hasn't made any effort to work on the marriage except to just show up for counseling, keeps changing his reasons for "unhappiness in the marriage". He won't talk to his Mom, or friends. I think it is best that he stop coming with me to counseling (counselor is very good, BTW) until he is ready to commit to the marriage. H is a good actor - salesman - can fake his way through almost anything. He thought he could work on the marriage AND keep his A going. Perhaps he was just showing up to humor me. He hates confrontation and doesn't have the guts to say no to counseling? Counselor saw that H was playing a game and we're not going to play. And I SAY he shows no remorse... he actually apologized 2 days ago for "hurting me". (8 weeks since he left, 6 weeks since d-day). I think that was a huge step for him. And he is being really nice when we DO talk, and being helpful about $$. I'm not sure if the nice-ness is out of guilt, genuine concern for me, or someone has recommended it to him for legal reasons in case of divorce?? I am clueless about how divorces work. I guess I need to do some research just in case.<P>I keep praying that he will decide to do the right thing. Thank you all for your advice. Please keep giving it.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1

Faith1:<P>Surviving an Affair is a must read. It is your Rand-McNally roadmap to marital recovery.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Dear Faith,<P>Very similar to what I went through. H moved out 12/31/00, I did not know where he lived until March 01. Same thing about no remorse, yet claimed he feels bad about hurting me. Bit confused? Oh it gets better. While claiming to feel no remorse, he kept trying to come back. Why? H didn't say. Then he tells OW that his W is always waiting for him. Hm...... am I a 2nd choice? I think not. I pulled myself out of that race ASAP. I told H, I was not in comptetition with anyone. H and OW could have each other, I would not interfere. However, H's dealings with me would be on my terms not his or OW's. <P>Then he started to say he was sorry for what he did. Then he says he wishes he never met ow. Not sure what he was telling OW at this point because he never had the guts to tell her that. Hm...... <P>All this took time. Even when he came home, he could not feel what he knew remorse should feel like. Why? Because he remained in contact with OW while lying to me. That should have been a key to me but I was trying to have trust in him. <P>So he will continue to play this 'game' and you are right not to be a participant. I even told my H the same thing. Funny how fogese runs the familar pattern with WS's. <P>Watch his actions. Hear his words but don't let them break you. H may not be in full control of his own thoughts. Especially if the OW is strong, manipulating and controlling beast. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>