Friends, I've been chewing on this one for a while and am curious about your thoughts on it. It's a bit long.<P>Back in May, my W was ready to get the D. She told me about the A, offered me verbally to get out of the M with little debt, then expected me to roll over and play dead.<P>A lot has happened since then. I basically refused to move out initially and tried to convince her to work on the marriage. This enraged her and fueled a resentment she's had with me over a separate issue for a while. She refused to end the A, and I just sat tight. But I protected myself.<P>She eventually had her attorney send me a settlement offer. It was drafted very much in my favor... I would walk with very few of the debts, and she assumes more than she can literally pay for. (The OM is obviously financing all of this; in fact, she initially told me as much.)<P>I pondered it for a week or so, then counter-offered, maintaining that I did NOT want to separate, but if she was going to force it, it would be on my additional terms, which included her paying for my attorneys and p.i.'s, as well as giving me money to set up in a new apartment, plus relieving me of one of the marital debts.<P>Yes, I had her followed. And yes, I suggested that if my terms were not met, I would consider suing on grounds of adultery. Rather than this being a huge LB, it actually seemed to bring her to her senses, in a way. I think she kind of respected the fact that I had taken these measures and stood up for myself. Since then, we've been able to communicate better than in months.<P>If you follow my story, you know I'm Plan A'ing and have been all along. The p.i./lawyer stuff was me protecting myself. I also did it out of anger. I've since left all of that behind. I'm no longer in the phase of wanting her to "pay" as I was briefly in the beginning. I'm continuing to Plan A even as we prepare to separate in a week or so. She is upset these days, torn, sad, in hell, as she says. But she is adamant about the separation continuing. She's agreed to my terms.<P>OK, the question. Isn't the right thing to do to go back and offer to split the debts up more fairly? Giving them all to her was originally a fog-based (and guilt-based) decision on her part. Agreeing to them and wanting more was an anger-based decision on my part. I'm not so sure the OM is still ready to take all of that on. Plus, if she does get them all, isn't that sort of forcing her to rely on him and his $$$?<P>Couldn't me letting this lopsided agreement go through be a potential LB in the future? My lawyer would be knocking me unconscious if he read this. I don't think it's out of sympathy that I want to do it, just ethics. It seems the right thing.<P>On the other hand, shouldn't she have to pay for my lawyer and p.i.? She sort of "required" me to get them lest I risk getting burned in the sep and D.<P>And can't I still continue to help her out financially anyway at my discretion? Or we could strike an agreement where I pay half of the monthly payments of marital debt? If we reconcile, it all comes back to both of us anyway...<P>It's a mess. Thanks for reading.<P>-zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 09, 2001).]

Guess this is a tough one...<P>Bumping back to the top...<P>-zen

zen - my knee jerk reaction is don't relax your conditions! She agreed once before, and the only way it can become an LB in the future is if it needs to be implemented permanently, right?<P>Further, she still wants the separation. Some will bet it's solely to spend time with OM - none of this "finding herself" crap. Your attorney and P.I. fees reasonably could be borne by you, but let her bring this up, IMHO.<P>WAT

WAT:<P>Been struggling with this ALL DAY.<P>On the one hand, I could stick to my guns (after all, backing down would probably be perceived as "softness" of the heart in a way... not exactly a LB but also not a very attractive quality at this point), but then I'm sort of forcing her to rely on the OM for $$$. I think this bites.<P>On the other hand, I don't want to say, "Here, let me help you with those" and invest myself, only to have OM come along and pick up her half of the bills ANYWAY.<P>I'm leaning towards sticking to the plan but making sure that she knows that I will help her if she needs it. Shouldn't it mean more to receive help from someone who can't afford it as well as someone else who can? I mean, I've always given her everything from the beginning, no matter what I had. This will continue, whether I win the lotto or not; she just doesn't see that as being worth much.<P>Thanks WAT,<BR>zen

deleted<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited July 10, 2001).]

WAT:<P>Thanks. I'm going to be deleting my portion as well in a day or so...<P>I really appreciate it.<P>-zen

Bumping back up to the top... Redon, zorweb, STL, any thoughts?

Zen, this is getting a bit beyond my breadth of experience, but I'll throw in my 2 cents as you asked! (thanks, BTW)! :><P>That's a tough one. I think you probably want to help her out as a part of your Plan A. Personally, I think that while the finances are an EN, that they should be kept separate. Nothing has changed with her yet,... therefore nothing should change with the arrangements that have already been made.<P>Don't concern yourself too much about her relying on the OM for financial support, she appeared to have that need met by you previously, and that didn't stop her from having the A, nor did the agreement where she took most of the debts make her want to return to you. I don't think that she'll stay with the OM for financial reasons.<P>Another thing is that she still wants a separation, I think she would be taking advantage of you to accept money from you while this is in place. I know you want to help her, after all she is your wife and you obviously love her dearly, but financial help won't bring her back, and if it did, you wouldn't want her back for those reasons. Stick to your guns and be strong. If she comes back, you want it to be for the right reasons. And then, of course, you can help her as a married couple.<P>From my own situation, I found that on a few occasions, before D-Day, I gladly helped my WS with various financial problems.... only to find out that at least part of that cash was going to fuel the A with the OM.... not happy about that. And it's perhaps something to think about.<P>As an aside, some financial pressure may cause a little friction between the two of them.... perhaps open the door to a little OM LB'ing.... :> hehehehee.... and that, my friend, is never a bad thing.<P>All the best!

So astute, Redon!<P>Here are my thoughts:<P><B>Don't concern yourself too much about her relying on the OM for financial support, she appeared to have that need met by you previously, and that didn't stop her from having the A, nor did the agreement where she took most of the debts make her want to return to you. I don't think that she'll stay with the OM for financial reasons.</B><P>Well, actually, she has said (incorrectly, I might add) that I don't make ENOUGH money. The OM is loaded... I know that the fog is worsening things. She does admit that I can support her, though<P><B>I know you want to help her, after all she is your wife and you obviously love her dearly, but financial help won't bring her back, and if it did, you wouldn't want her back for those reasons.</B><P>Agreed.<P><B>As an aside, some financial pressure may cause a little friction between the two of them.... perhaps open the door to a little OM LB'ing.... :> hehehehee.... and that, my friend, is never a bad thing.</B><P>In fact, it already has! I know that they have already had arguments over this. I'm sure that he is saying that he is not going to pay for anything until I am out of the house. He has given her some money, but he is waffling on his original offer to pay everything off. I've been looking for this LB'ing on his part to try to capitalize on it. The best thing I think I said was, "I've always given you all of my support, no matter if I had lots of $$$ or 2 cents..." Sort of implying that he's not putting his money where his mouth is. But all he has to do is write the check, and, boom, she's trapped. Hmmmm, maybe that's not a bad thing...<P>thanks redon!<BR>zen<p>[This message has been edited by zen (edited July 10, 2001).]

Zen,<P>I agree with WAT and Redon here.<P>Your wife has agreed to the separation agreement and nothing has changed on her part. Let it stand as agreed upon.<P>I know that you want to help her. You see the inequity of the agreement. But it’s your hope that it does not last long anyway.<P>You confirmed my gut feeling. That the OM is blowing smoke when he said he’d help her financially. I don’t think he realized the enormity of the promise he made. Most people would become very resentful of their partner putting such financial burdens on them. I’m sure he’s not much different than anyone else.<P>I know that you are in Plan A right now. But with you moving out it’s almost like a modified Plan A/B. Since you will not be there, you will be filling fewer of her emotional needs then you have been. She will become more depended on OM then she has ever been. Putting as much pressure on that relationship as possible without looking too terribly awful should be you goal. So let her live what she has agreed to and let the OM ante up to his promises. And let the fireworks happen. <P>Is this a love buster? To many people it would be. But remember that the fog makes people think in strange ways. To your wife, a love buster would be to do anything that prolonged her and OM getting together. Going against her judgment would also be a love buster.. After all she thinks it’s a viable agreement. Who are you to disagree with her? It would only be you trying to fix things for her again. She thinks she’s done good. Let her learn from her mistakes.<P>One caution though. If your name is on the financial obligations she is assuming you will want to keep a very close eye on them. This is because I bet they don’t get paid. My bet is that OM is going to back out of agreeing to pay. He will do this in little bits and pieces so that it’s not a big love bust, but he is going to back out. I can hear it now “I’m not going to pay that bill. It’s your husband’s responsibility. I cannot believe you agreed to pay his bills. You earn a good living pay that bill yourself. Yada yada yada “ You do not want this to lead to financial ruin. There are many things that you will still be financially and legally obligated to pay. So don’t let things get too far behind. <P>And example of this is the loan on the house. You said earlier that you name is not on the mortgage. Well if you are not removed from the mortgage and she cannot pay it, the mortgage company is going to come after you. Does your separation agreement include actually taking you off the mortgage? Or does it leave you on the mortgage and transfer the title back to her 100%. This is would put you in the position of being responsible for the mortgage but having no claim to the property. Most mortgage companies will not willingly remove anyone from the mortgage obligation because this is not in their best interest. So a refinance might be necessary to remove your obligation. And to further complicate the issue, in a community property state like New Mexico you would still be responsible for the mortgage even if your name is not on it. This is because both spouses are always responsible for the debts either one of them enter into. I hope your attorney has protected you from such a fate.<P>Anyway, my point is that it is in your best interest to put as much pressure on the affair relationship as you can. Is it a love buster? Remember that you can always relax things as it goes along. Then you will be the knight in shinning armor saving her from the mess she got herself into. <P>Zen, I know this is hard. My heart goes out to you. You are doing a very good job of this so hang in there. <P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

zor-<P>Great, wonderful words. Yes, part of the agreement is I will be paid x amount of equity in the house and then my name will be removed from the mortgage when she refinances... I think the agreement stipulates that this has to be done within 6 months or something like that. I did ask her a while back how in the world she was going to refinance the house with just her income. She said that after OM paid off all other consumer debt (not a small amount), he was going to give her x $$$ to bring the principal down to a level that she could afford to refinance with. grrrrrrr I really want to give in to my emotion to HATE him for promising something like that... It's just so unfair... But I don't know if that offer still stands...<P>You're right, some of the other debts are in both of our names, but I'm deliberating trying to pay those off after we separate (even though she gets them in the agreement) just to beat the OM to the punch. I've got some good freelance ops right now so I think I could do it. I just somehow feel it would make a point, but more importantly, I would feel more responsible if I did that.<P>He's already LB'ed some about the $$$... He did not like it when I revealed my attorney and p.i. fees -- he's making her get the money for those on her own. He said he was being blackmailed.<P>His W really needs to know what's going on. Did I mention that her crazy sister called me, but she's not telling her because she "doesn't want to hurt her."?<P>Thanks again, zor... Have a good day<P>-zen

Zen,<P>What did her crazy sister call you about? This is interesting.<P>As for you eventually paying the bills. If you want to do it for yourself, then that just speaks of your character. You are a good man with a good heart. I can certainly see why she fell in love with you to start with. And I believe that the love is still there, buried in her fog.<P>But before you jump out there to pay them, let the reality of the situation sink into her and her OM. I can see the fireworks already.<P>(he he)<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare