It's been a while since I have posted. The world has changed about a dozen times since I last posted. My W has told me that she has told OM that they can no longer communicate because she is going to try to make our marriage work. Unfortunately, she says she did this because I told her that I could no longer deal with the lies and that I was going to proceed with the divorce. In other words, she says I blackmailed her. <P>We are still separated so I can't be sure if she is following through with her promise. I do know that it appears that she is not using her cell phone to call him (he lives in another state). My W does appear to want to do things with me - Saturday she asked me to go shopping with her and one of our children - Sunday she asked if we could take the boat out. <P>A couple of weeks ago I gave her a copy of SAA by Dr. Harley. When I went over to her house this weekend, I went upstairs to get our daughter out of my W's bed and I saw the book on the nightstand. I was encouraged because it means that she has probably read at least part of it.<P>Now here's the question - how can you be sure if your WS is trying to make things work? How can you be sure if your WS has given up contact? My W does appear to be in what I would call withdrawal from time to time, but I can't be sure. Is this really just a game of wait and see at this point?<P>S&C

S&C,<P>Sadly, yes.. this is a game of wait and see. Unfortunately, you'll probably be the last to see. My W was trying.. but to me, I couldn't see her efforts. Mind you this only lasted with her and I for a few months. All I can say is continue with your plan A. Don't be judgemental, and at all costs avoid LBing. <P>The ship may be in port... but the tugs got to ease her gently into the docks. <P>Miss it, push it, pull it wrong... she's back out to the deep blue sea, where mine is at.<P>Good luck<BR><P>------------------<BR>Husband2You<BR>*****<BR>Don't make me promises <BR>Baby you never did know how to keep them well <BR>I've had the rest of you <BR>Now I want the best of you <BR>It's time for show and tell<P>'All or Nothing' © 2001 O-Town

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sadandconfused:<BR><B>how can you be sure if your WS is trying to make things work? How can you be sure if your WS has given up contact? My W does appear to be in what I would call withdrawal from time to time, but I can't be sure. Is this really just a game of wait and see at this point?<P>S&C</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure that you can be 100% in belief that the WS is working on things at first. You still have a lot of resentment (with good reason), and you have to build up trust towards your W again. Rather, she must EARN your trust back.<P>The no contact issue is so touchy when the withdrawal is still there. I would say that you have to talk to your W and explain to her that she needs to tell you if she's had any contact with the OM whatsoever, and remind her that you will be asking her from time to time. How much or how little withdrawal symptoms she's having could clue you in to whether or not there's been contact.<P>As far as the game of wait and see goes, yes, I think that's where you two are at right now. For now, I'd say to step lightly, and keep on plan Aing (but don't overdo it... you know the rules of withdrawal from SAA).<P>Enjoy the time you and your W are having together now. And congratulations!! <P>Karen<P><BR>

I'd assume that if she is asking to do those things with you that things are getting at least a little better. Don’t feel bad about the blackmail comment. Your presence alone is going to cause those feelings for awhile. I feel it’s mostly because they know what's right but they don’t feel compelled to do it. Kinda how you get mad at your boss for telling you company policy states that you will be at work by 8 am. Not his fault, he didn’t make the rule, but it's easy to be mad at him for being there to remind you. <P>As far as contact, now would not be a great time for snooping or over analyzing what she's doing. I know it's hard but only question the blatantly obvious. Good luck, sounds like your doing a great job.<BR>

Sad_N_C,<BR> You say you are still separated? Is there a reason you are not living in the same household now? Forgive me for going where it is not my business, but I just wondered the reasons for this, since this seems to be creating some of your insecurity. <P>If you were living together, you could see for yourself what she does or doesn't do. Is she not ready for this yet? <P>Again, forgive me, I'm just trying to understand where your relationship is right now. Has the issue of moving back in together come up at all?<P>At least she is willing to try. It sounds like you are off to a good start to your recovery! <P>Lupo

Very true, lupo, st least she is willing to try. As far as how to know if her efforts are sincere, that is probably difficult to tell.<P>If and when my wife reaches the stage that your wife is at, to even try and let the OM go, then I will be going through the same thing you are... wondering and wondering if she is really trying, or are the lies just continuing? All we can do is trust, and give it time, but set guidelines to protect your marriage, as it has been said. I hope to remember this advice and put it to use soon.

In response to Lupolady's questions. My W and I have been separated since March. She asked me to leave and give her some space. I left reluctantly thinking that this was required to save the marriage (so she says). Her A was in the infancy stages at the time. <P>I have suggested that we move back together in order to reconcile. She is reluctant at the moment. She says she doesn't want us to move back together only to get a divorce in two months. It would be too difficult on the kids (so she says). I'm of the opinion that that is a pessimistic attitude, but at the same time, I see her point. Soooo, I'm just letting it be for the time being. It has only been 2 weeks since she supposedly broke off contact and I think she is in an emotionally vulnerable position (sounds kinda of strange - she had the affair and now she is emotionally vulnerable). In any case, I am trying not to push anything right now. She is back in marriage counseling with me and has even gone once by herself.<P>And please don't ever worry about prying.<P>S&C

There is way too much effort made to understand us (ws) and what we are doing/thinking (although it is understandable). All it does is push us away, and make us feel important only cause you want to posess us for your needs. Just leave us alone, to do what we want. I know you are just asking here, not your w (at least hopefully she does not feel your scrutiny). IMO the only "real" outcome of any value, is for the ws to decide completely on their own that they do want you. That is best accomplished by bs focusing on themselves and changing what they want to change, and demostrating those changes are permanent (that may take a while before we believe you), then we can decide (so to speak) if it makes any difference to us. You will be able to "tell" when we are responding the same way one tells anything, by our behaviour and our "emotional" presence. <P>You can only decide for yourself whether that response continues to meet your needs, or go to plan B. There is little a ws hates more (or pushes us away faster) than interfereing with our choice re op. This is a difficult area cause many bs want to make us addicts and think you have to "fix" us. Wrong. We may be addicts, but we have to fix ourselves, you will be the first to know when we do. Having been through this for 5 months now (since D) and refusing to stop contact with op despite serious pressure from my w, and from jennifer harley, to do so, I can give you some thoughts. I too am going to do the MB stuff, I decided that months ago, and told w so (and been doing so, little at a time). What she could not understand, (because she wants what she wants, and the h*ll with what I want) is that I needed to understand what what had happened to me, how did I fall in love with ow, was I really in love, was she, what did this all mean. Trivializing me be saying I was in a fog, this wasn't important, was just like a heroin addiction, blah blah blah, just made me angry. <P>Well it works like this, if "those" feelings were unimportant, than so must any similar feelings I have for spouse. She is not my child, not a relative, she started out as nothing but a stranger too. I developed feelings (the same way) for her then, was that a "fog", an "addiction", unimportant? Many people get married in a fog, we talk about it all the time, the euphoria of being in love. So if this fog for the ow is not important, than my feelings of not being in-love with w may very well be right too (out of the fog, heck now I even know her better, what more reason to be sure I don't want to be married to her). <P>I don't think you bs understand this very well, that is what is going on inside many of us ws. When you focus on how wrong the feelings for op are, you just help convince us we are right about not being in-love with you. This is a dangerous strategy, cause you are trying to coerce us back to you (or blackmail as your w said... with guilt about kids, or threats of divorce, or witholding your attention, or beating us up with vows..whatever). That may work to get our attention, but it is one strike against you. Then continuing to focus on what we are doing about op adds a second strike, keep that in mind. If you just leave us be we will work out our feelings for op on our own and take appropriate action, end it, leave you, whatever...but it will be out choice, a pure choice, and if we are left alone to freely choose you, that is the best outcome for permanent reconcilliation, instead of somekind of outcome that started from force. <P>I know this is hard to do, but I think it is best. I don't believe my wife loves me, it is why I "left" her in the first place. I think she wants me, needs me, for "her", not cause I am particularly "special", I am just the guy who has filled the H shoes for last 23 years, could have been anyone. She would just "love" whoever she was married too, makes no difference who they are. She has not acted much like someone it love with me all those years (yeah I know, fog, I am just a stupid ws, how could I possibly have any "real" feelings, or know anything, we just rewrite history doncha know). Now she wants me to believe she is really "in-love" with me, and of course all the LB, coercion etc is my fault for being a ws, couldn't possibly be cause she doesn't love me as much as she thinks she does huh?<P>The point is the op is part of the ws life, the bs has no place or purpose being there. Just "compete" as best you can for your w heart, but let her decide. Yes you have to have your boundaries, but IMO they should be minimal, a ws should not subject the bs to the op presence (like taking/making calls in the presence of bs), and there should be a promise (because of std's) not to have sex with op, or with bs (in other words make a choice)...and if that promise is not kept to tell the bs, so they can choose to stop (but no LB over it). Other than that, everyone can set the boundary bar where they want, but the higher it is, the lesser ability your ws will have to choose you. And when they do choose you it will be less committed in direct relation to how much pressure you brought to bear.<P>The first thing you can look for (and politely ask her to do) is reading the MB material. Then you at least know she is aware of the issues behind her feelings for op, and for you. You should make it clear you are going to absolutely stay out of her way with op, and she can do what she feels she needs to, to work that out. But that you are willing to talk about her feelings (and leave yours completely out of it) for op with her, like a good friend might. That you just want her to be happy and fullfilled (you do love her right? so that should be what you want.. right?). Tell her your plan is to look at yourself and change the things you think are necessary in the meantime, and will keep any "coercive" type of behaviour to an absolute minimum. IMO worrying about what is in her mind is just going to make you crazy, and more likely to LB (that is what happens with my w). I have told my wife repeatedly that I understand the need to seperate from the op for the purposes of giving MB a chance, but that I also needed to do it in my own way in my own time. Her continual frustration over this has actually prolonged it, cause among many other issues, her behaviour does not make her particulary appealing, or emotionally safe. I do not want to be "owned", and that is what I feel like, emotional property. I am "loved" if I act like she wants, but "hated" if I have feeling for ow. That sounds pretty much like this is all about her to me. Is that how you feel? So yes, it is a game of wait and see, excruciating yes, but ultimately the outcome will be what it should be. When she is ready to, she will do the rules of protection stuff, to help with any weaknesses concerning op, but first she has to choose you. Let her do that on her own.<P>

Hi S&C,<P>It is good to hear from you. There is sitll some confusion on your W's part leaving you sad. You see some progress but not enough to convince you that your W is ready? That is what it sounds like. <P>S&L, like many WS's want to space to do what they want. Oh, yes. Me too. Don't we all. I'd like to quit my job, have all my bills and problems solved by someone else, go off into the sunset and never have another care in the world. Oh by the way, don't forget to turn off the DVD player and the TV on the way out. The movie is over..... This fantasy life described above is not reality. That is where you W and my H still are. Trying to come back to reality. But just as the movie Space Jam was not real, neither is this twilight state of withdrawal. That urge to keep one foot in both worlds is rough on both worlds. The cartoon characters (OPs) don't like it either and that is where the tug of war exist. Those OPs want to be real, just as real as you are. Except they can change, shapes sizes and colors just like Roger Rabbit. (ok, I have a kid and use illustrations from Warner Bros and Disney, so shoot me LOL! - but I know you are getting this, right?)<P>Where does that leave you? Well, you both need to decide how long you will allow that twilight zone to be on. Can you personally do anything? Some. Set your boundaries. Set your expectations with you and your children. Start to live your life and let your W see that reality is better than fiction. A bit of plan B? Hm...... need to get more thoughts on that....<P>Take Care,<BR>L.

Wow! What awesome insight from a WS! I feel like that, in your venting, I got a peek inside my wife and how she is feeling about me.<P>I've been told by several good friends to just let her go, and let her decide on her own terms if she wants to come back, and when. It's the ancient cliche I've repeated a dozen times... "If you love someone, let them go, and if they truly love you in return, they will come back." <P>It is true. But it is also hard. It's as hard as life. That harsh reality we all live. And if us BS's are going to live this hard, harsh reality called life, then it is respectful and fair and appropriate for WS's to also live that same truth. That means not slipping back into a fantasy that we all know cannot be. (At least in my situation, my WS and the OP couldn't and wouldn't actually culminate their relationship, long term) It is easy to say that you are working hard, and that you need time to work things out, yet at the same time, you are indulging and gorging on a relationship you don't even want to commit to, long term, but are doing everything in your power to prolong.<P>I've heard the OP say it on voicemail, email and in chat conversations with my WS... "I know this won't last and that it has to end, but I am just so happy with you, that I am going to let this last as long as I can." They are just prolonging the inevitable, and in the meantime, destroying any chance of making a rewarding and lasting relationship with the BS, who truly loves them. <P>My message to WS's is that you fell in love with your spouse once upon a time. Go back, in your mind, to what you loved about them, and see if that is still in them. If it is there, it can come back. And more.

After reading sad'n'lonely's response, I have to wonder if every WS feels this way. I am beginning to think this guy makes sense. We may think he's wrong, ( and By the way I do think he's selfish, immature and wrong), but he has a point. Something happened to make the WS do what they did and we as the BS can try to change ourselves, but ultimately if my WS doesn't want me, there isn't anything I can do about it. I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my marriage sits in the hands of someone else, who I am not sure I know anymore. The same person who promised to love honor and cherish 'til death us do part all of a sudden decided that forsaking all others part wasn't a big deal. I know I'm venting and my taker is surfacing, but when do I get to relax. I am sometimes afraid that if I do something to push, even unintentionally, She will start running. The WS has a great advantage in this. They can take their ball and go home, if they don't like the rules anymore. What does everybody think<BR>

Sad_n_Lonely ... yep, it's me again <P>And I have a question. What about the pressure the OP places on you, what about the coercion and manipulation they put on you? How does that come into play? I mean, regardless if it's veiled & subtle, they do "work you". You agree?<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 24, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark H:<BR><B>After reading sad'n'lonely's response, I have to wonder if every WS feels this way. I am beginning to think this guy makes sense. We may think he's wrong, ( and By the way I do think he's selfish, immature and wrong), but he has a point. Something happened to make the WS do what they did and we as the BS can try to change ourselves, but ultimately if my WS doesn't want me, there isn't anything I can do about it. I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my marriage sits in the hands of someone else, who I am not sure I know anymore. The same person who promised to love honor and cherish 'til death us do part all of a sudden decided that forsaking all others part wasn't a big deal. I know I'm venting and my taker is surfacing, but when do I get to relax. I am sometimes afraid that if I do something to push, even unintentionally, She will start running. The WS has a great advantage in this. They can take their ball and go home, if they don't like the rules anymore. What does everybody think</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mark's reply really struck me.<BR>Any self serving person may seems to "have" the "advantage".<BR>But at the end, it is the giver that truely prosper.<BR>Hope this will offer some peace.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark H:<BR><B>I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my marriage sits in the hands of someone else, who I am not sure I know anymore. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow. Yes! I know. Mark, I totally know how you feel.<P>While the post was selfish and immature, yes, it was also harsh reality. Us BS's need to pray the Serenity Prayer...<P><I>God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change........<BR>Courage to change the things I can<BR>And the wisdom to know the difference.</I><P>

Resilent in the WS eyes, the OP is never pushy, demanding or manipulating, because they are too busy building up the WS ego, and there are no REAL LIFE problems (bills, kids, laundry, cleaning, etc)in the fantasy YET. They only see the spouse as being all of those bad things.

For the record, (once again), what I do here, how this helps me (and hopefully others), is I try as much as possible to represent my feelings and thoughts accurately. I do nothing for validation, or approval, is all about reality checks.<P>There is a decided slant here to the bs mindset, understandings, expectations, psychology etc. and understandably so. The problem is if you don't understand the ws and project on to them your stuff, then IMO you increase the likelihood of failure. Hence my attempts to be straightforward, knowing full well, some of the stuff I say makes me look like a complete jerk. <P>OTOH, the reverse is true, it would be foolish of me to assume I "know" everything too, so I listen to what you bs say very closely, is only fair...right? I truly believe my wife does not love me, I think she thinks she does (which is the crux of that part of my issues), nor do I understand myself anymore at all, and I do love the ow (or feel like I do), so I don't know what to do with all this stuff and go into overload...that is what I am trying to tell you. This is not about the ws just running around being an idiot [although it may seem like it ], and when you add more pressure, you may not get the result you expect (we aren't rational, remember?). My basic um..... reaction when my wife ups the pressure, is to just leave, that seems the safest, she doesn't really want that so she relents, but the yo-yoing takes it's toll. I am suggesting you bs don't do that. <P>Godly...I've been told by several good friends to just let her go, and let her decide on her own terms if she wants to come back, and when. It's the ancient cliche I've repeated a dozen times... "If you love someone, let them go, and if they truly love you in return, they will come back."<P>snl...Precisely, and the very actions of doing that are very powerful to the ws, they are to me anyways. <P>Godly...And if us BS's are going to live this hard, harsh reality called life, then it is respectful and fair and appropriate for WS's to also live that same truth. <P>snl...There is nothing fair about this, life is not fair, and we each define fairness for ourselves (although is much commonality), the point is, the ws will be as fair as they want to be, don't challenge that.<P>Godly..That means not slipping back into a fantasy that we all know cannot be. <P>snl....That is not known, but when it is the ws will act accordingly.<P>Godly....(At least in my situation, my WS and the OP couldn't and wouldn't actually culminate their relationship, long term) <P><BR>snl....Don't believe that, it is not true. There are things going on far below the cognitive level, and this is what completely befuddles and irritates the bs. There are drives (and they are definitely not fog) going on in a ws that are very powerful, and like most people, they will not necessarily look at or understand them. That is why we seem mercurial, unstable, we are not, all this is predictable and understandable when you realize a war is going on inside us. I am way off to one side, I work really really hard at trying to understand myself, many ws won't do that much work, they just react. I am trying to help some of you understand the pyschology of some kinds of ws. Maybe I am full of crap, I don't know, but it is so clear to me many of you do not understand your ws at all, and so react in ways that are counter-productive. The harley's have this down pat, I can find no flaws in their procedures, what I am doing is trying to is explain why those procedures work, and maybe give you some relife from feeling like you are living with aliens. That may be cute imagery, but we are just humans, and we are understandable and predictable, just like everyone else, although it may not be easy, and there is no gaurantee the marraige is in fact not over.<P>Godly...It is easy to say that you are working hard, and that you need time to work things out, yet at the same time, you are indulging and gorging on a relationship you don't even want to commit to, long term, but are doing everything in your power to prolong.<P>snl...That may be true, but the only issue of any import to the bs is what actions can you take to best insure the outcome you want. Sometimes letting someone gorge on 10 hot fudge sundaes is the only way to "cure" them, and then cheerfully cleaning up the mess when they throw up all over the place sends a pretty powerful message, if you see my point.<P>Godly...I've heard the OP say it on voicemail, email and in chat conversations with my WS... "I know this won't last and that it has to end, but I am just so happy with you, that I am going to let this last as long as I can." They are just prolonging the inevitable, and in the meantime, destroying any chance of making a rewarding and lasting relationship with the BS, who truly loves them.<P>snl...wrong. They are continuing it cause they hope at some level it will work, do not be so naive. They are doing so cause it is working at some level that is important. You have just described me and ow for months now. We KNOW it will not work, but there were things still needed, and at a very deep visceral level was the hope a miracle would happen, this is powerful stuff when people love. Affairs that are just about selfish behaviour, and using someone for gratification (sex or otherwise) are ameable to some pressure and coercion, cause they don't mean much. But affairs that are about real love are a whole different animal, cause they are real (despite the bs hope that they are not). That is why the outcome must be left to the ws, if you tear them away you take great risk they will never be able to love you (even if they fake it real good). This is one of the reasons I resist coercion (rules of protection), I know myself well enuf that anything that I don't do willingly is not going to work well. If I am going to stop (and it is pretty much over last few days) it had to be on my terms. Is that selfish? Yes, breathtakingly selfish, my taker is in ectasy over the power, and I recognize the danger in getting use to this. <P>But I needed to understand, so I subjected my w to this (or I would have left if she couldn't take it, but I was not going to stop). I am never going to lie to her again, and when she asks me if I love her, or why don't I love her, or can I ever love her, I want to be able to do more than say I don't know. To answer those questions, it was crucial I understand what was happening with ow. The ow is (and will be so for any of you bs who have ethical spouses) will always be a part of who I am. This was not a game for me, nor do I love lightly. She is only the 2nd woman I have ever looked at in this way (I am 50 yo), my wife being the other, trivializing it does not work, unless I trivialize my marriage too. <P>Godly...My message to WS's is that you fell in love with your spouse once upon a time. Go back, in your mind, to what you loved about them, and see if that is still in them. If it is there, it can come back. And more.<P>snl...maybe, we know that. But that is not necessarily true, and we know that too.<BR> <BR>Mark H ..After reading sad'n'lonely's response, I have to wonder if every WS feels this way. <P>snl...No, IMO there are a few different kinds of ws (and bs)...is more of a if the shoe fits.<P>mark...I am beginning to think this guy makes sense. We may think he's wrong, ( and By the way I do think he's selfish, immature and wrong), but he has a point. <P>snl...One could make the argument a bs who won't face the reality of a dysfunctional and possibly unrepairable marriage is selfish, immature, and wrong as well. The facts are what counts not the status of the individual.<P>mark...Something happened to make the WS do what they did and we as the BS can try to change ourselves, but ultimately if my WS doesn't want me, there isn't anything I can do about it. <P>snl.... exactly, and why trying to "make" someone see their feelings are wrong is counter-productive.<P>mark...I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my marriage sits in the hands of someone else, who I am not sure I know anymore. <P>snl...It always has. A marriage sits in the hands of both, it cannot function with only one willing participant, whether they guilt the other to stay or not. I have come to the conclusion that a marriage is chosen everyday, the moment one party no longer chooses, it is over, done. And fighting that is useless. However, one can make an effort to reconcille (and self-grow), and have a new marriage, but trying to hang on to the old one, means hanging on to the old problems. Certainly the moment one has an affair, the marriage is over, realizing and accepting that is good mental health (IMO), but also reassuring to the ws, who obviously has serious issues with the old marriage.<P>Mark..The same person who promised to love honor and cherish 'til death us do part all of a sudden decided that forsaking all others part wasn't a big deal. <P>snl..... It is a very big deal mark, we know and feel that, we aren't monsters. Problem is (by observation of our species), those promises are not possible to make in absolute terms, they are only possible in intent, and intent changes.... Sometimes I wonder if those very vows don't contribute to divorce, by setting an impossible standard for "feelings" those who find themselves in opposition to their vows demonize their bs in psychological self-defense, and run away as fast as they can (before their guilt over such despicable behaviour catches up with them).<P>mark...I know I'm venting and my taker is surfacing, but when do I get to relax. <P>snl...plan a allows for taking care of yourself. The issue is letting go control, then you can relax...a little.<P>mark...I am sometimes afraid that if I do something to push, even unintentionally, She will start running. <P><BR>snl...we are not that fragile, and do not walk around on egg shells, this isn't that hard to do (in therory). Just do a good plan a, set as few boundaries as possible, and let what happens happen. Knowing you have done all you can. I have noticed bs agonize over this and that, if only, if only...... doesn't work that way, it is the patterns, the sum total that makes or breaks this, don't worry much about not being perfect, and simply own up to it when "you" have violated your own standards, the ws is listening.<P>mark...The WS has a great advantage in this. They can take their ball and go home, if they don't like the rules anymore. <P>snl...Not a game, and despite some concern otherwise, ws are no different than bs, we know this is serious. That is why ultimatum type stuff is not good IMO. The bs does their thing, and does it well, and the ws will do what they will do. Yes, at some point someone says ok it is over, if so, everyone licks their wounds, parts as amicably as possible (cause it really ain't over till you are dead), and moves on in an appropriate way in their life.<BR> <BR>Resilient Sad_n_Lonely ... yep, it's me again <BR>And I have a question. What about the pressure the OP places on you, what about the coercion and manipulation they put on you? How does that come into play? I mean, regardless if i's veiled or subtle, they do "work you".<P>snl....My ow has put no pressure on me in that sense. If anything I have pit more on her to leave. I know this is not true for many, and maybe we are not that typical. We started completely innocently as friends, and do like each other, but had no desire or intent to break-up anyones marriage. What we found is we were both seriously emotionally/psychologically neglected spouses, who are married to emotionally distant people, we never really bonded with. Our "discussions" re those issues have been more about what does this all mean, can one actually divorce and why (we are fairly committed Christians), and holding spouses accountable (one consequence being they have lost us, cause now we love another). But ultimately the world and it's reality has taken it's toll, people will not let us be, and demand our participation in their lives, not really caring much about our feelings, and so we go back, to what we don't know. My w says she will change, we'll see, and she is afaid her husband is just gonna kick her out (he doesn't know yet, but my wife has decided he should know, much to the unhappiness of ow). I have maintained all along a narrow path. I have never told her to leave her husband, but I have told her, quite strongly, that living like she has is not ok. And that she needs to hold him accountable, not only for her own mental health (which is shot), but also if her marriage is going to be anything but a sham (ditto mine). We have also voiced under other circumstances would be nice to be married to each other. Someone who understands us, and is motivated to nurture us. Just for the heck of it we took some temperament type tests and such, and no surprise there was higher compatibility results with each other than spouses. All this stuff is very hard emotionally, and is why the harleys speak about affair proofing marriages. If you are happy and content where you are, avoiding the opportunity to meet someone who has that poorly understood chemistry with you can be a disaster. And if you are unhappily married, an affair is inevitiable, cause it really is not an affair, it is a competeing relationship.<P> <BR>

SNL, You do a wonderful job of rationalizing your actions. I do understand a marriage is chosen everyday, but when someone doesn't let you see that a problem is occurring, how do you know it's there. SNL, the thought that your W is in love with love and security, if I am understanding you, isn't fair to her. What makes you "love" the OW ? What does she do that your W hasn't for all those years. I respectfully ask you to consider the very real possibility that your actions are based solely on the Boredom that day to day life delivers. You sound like Mid life crisis 101.If I am wrong I do apologize, but I did not imply this was a game. I only implied that WS's sometimes seem to think it is. MY WS doesn't seem to want to face reality. Everyone, who has ever had problems in their marriage did not have an A. I believe most people face those problems and work on them.<BR>I do not think the vows you make are subject to change on your whims. I believe if you want out, have the B***S to get out and don't hide behind rationalizations for your actions. Lots of people leave a marriage and find someone new. There is nothing wrong with that. It's leaving before you have the common decency to tell your partnerthat I find offensive.<BR>

I don't have time to individually address each point you made, and since most of them are valid, it would be wasting breath. But I will say that, your attitude in general, is selfish and leaves little concern for your wife. Maybe she doesn't really love you, and that might be a cause for this act of self. But too many WS's tend to just "bask" in the attention they get from both parties and pick and choose what they want.<P>I think you need to make a decision and stop walking on the fence. Yes, you love the OP, but if you really want to give your marriage a chance, you'd leave the OP temporarily, to give the BS a chance. If they don't prove themselves after a time, then you can decide it won't work and fully pursue any pleasure you wish.<P>But when there is this selfishness where you convince yourself that you can keep both, then you aren't working towards a solution at all. You are merely prolonging a situation you are enjoying. That's all.

Dear S&L, I know this is not your thread but I had to respond to you and what appears to your very heavy heart. Reading your replies has been helpful to me so don't misinterpret this response as being negative. My H (WS) has also accused me of never really loving him in the 18 years that we've been together. He realized that when we had our first child. However, let me assure you, as Cali put it so well, after 18 years, my heart still jumped each time he walked into a room, shivers still ran down my spine when he place his arm on around me or when he kissed my lips. Perhaps, the issue was comfort and trust. As is the case with family, I took for granted that I would always have that. I never, in my wildest dreams, believed he would taste and want another woman. Please don't discount the reality of your W's love. The reality of your W's love and commitment may be what you're refusing to confront since you betrayed it.

I think s_n_l, whether he's right, wrong, in the fog, etc. is certainly interesting and worth reading. All we do know for sure is that he is a WS, and regardless of where he is on the continuum, he offers one WS's perspective, that may or may not be illuminating.<P>The main barb that sticks in my side is s-n-l's bit about thinking he knows his W's feelings better than she does... the part about him thinking she really doesn't love him but has convinced herself that she does. How can you speak for her feelings? They are hers. Everyone has a right to their feelings and I think it serves your purposes to interpret her feelings for her.<P>zen