My H is still intimate w/ me...<P>oh, who am I kidding...we have sex. But there is no kissing...before, during or after....<P>he hasn't kissed me in so long...or let me kiss him...<P>OTOH...he did slip up and call me by his nickname for me tonight...<P>When did sex become making love again for you WS's and how did you BS's out there stand it if intimacy continued, but it didn't feel very intimate?<P>I want to continue to give...but part of me is starting to feel taken advantage of...used...and I don't like it.<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Cali,<P>As the BS I'm struggling with this issue. When we are intimate with each other then the quality is very high but getting to that stage is a problem. All sorts of excuses and reasons keep arising. At one stage, even passionate kissing was an issue but we seem to have gone through that now.<P>However, this was a big problem before the EAs - so I have no idea what that says. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Freddy (edited August 08, 2001).]

O.k., since I'm here way late already, I'll bite and try to post another of my sensitive and caring replies. (just learned smilies, too)<P>First, some definitions: <BR>lovemaking = sex + initimacy<BR>intimacy = affection, caring, ...<P>For many, many years the intimacy slowly leaked out of our marriage. The worst part was her not wanting me to kiss or touch her (she would tolerate a little of this, but not much). Since SF and affection are my top needs I was really hanging on by a thread for a long time. I felt I could only get sex through emotional blackmail. If I was needy and blue long enough W would eventually break down and we would have sex and I would feel better for a while...<P>I felt like I was TAKING, not GIVING, because it seemed that this was something she would not chose to do on her own (lack of intimacy seemed to demonstrate that to me). I really resented that feeling of taking, but I just couldn't stop. I would get to feeling so low (and even angry) that I was desperate for anything I could get. I would always be able to convince myself afterwards that since I felt better that maybe intimacy would return - until the next cycle.<P>During my W's EA the frequency actually increased so I didn't sink as low between sessions(?). Still no intimacy, though.<P>I finally confronted her about the EA (in this post, actually <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009349.html" TARGET=_blank>Net Romance? Please comment.</A>)<P>That evening, after email discussions with me and OM. W's response was like the Pina Colada Song: "What, I never knew." We don't have sex anymore, only lovemaking. Lots. She committed to recovery immediately. The thing that convinced me she is really committed is that we are now intimate all the time. Not just during lovemaking.<P>So, to answer your questions: I survived for many years (10?) with little or no intimacy. Your post about "Why didn't I have the affair?" struck home for me. <P>But. Right now I can honestly say it was all worth it. I am so happy. I wish I had known the MB stuff sooner. Although, when I think about this carefully, I come to the conclusion that it probably would not have helped 5 or 10 years ago -- you have to go through the fire before you can get cleansed, or something like that.<P>I can understand why you feel exhausted. There's a post out there today about the list of things you learn going through MB, I think one of the items is to take a break during Plan A. Take a break from giving. You're back into expectation mode, quit expecting anything for a few days.<P>You've given your H a lot recently and it's going to percolate in him for a while whether he likes it or not. Give it time.<P>--Jeffers

When did sex become making love again? For my H and I, it wasn't until the first night he started staying here for good. I didn't recognize it right away, until I could see the intimacy returning on BOTH our parts. And that intimacy had been gone a long time prior to his EA's and PA's.<P>Prior to our messy situation, it was becoming rarer and rarer that we made love. It was mostly about sex, the pure, raw, need for settling our 'urges'. Now (over 2 months into recovery), it seems to be the exact opposite.<P>Although we only had sex a handful of times during our 4 month separation, I do know that I continued to make love to him. In return, I was getting sex. It's draining, isn't it? I would kiss him, but wouldn't get kissed back. It was awful. So I do understand what you're feeling Cali. For me, it even got to the point where I felt I had to ask him if I could kiss him. I couldn't just do it out of the blue. And that actually hurt more, because he would turn me down.<P>How did I stand it? As far as the 'sex' goes, I was able to show him the SF way that I loved him. That made me feel good. And the fact that some of my own needs were being met, also helped a great deal. How did I stand the no kissing as means of showing affection? I didn't. Not very well anyways. I think what helped me the most was to think of the other EN's he was fulfilling for me (like conversation and family time).<P>Karen<P>Karen<BR>

Cali...<P>The sex becomes love, and the intimacy returns when the WS makes it about you. When they realize what they have, take responsibility for their part in what happened, when they give up worrying about being forgiven and what other people think, when they let go and forgive themselves....intimacy returns with an abundance. <P>Sex is a desire and a need, intimacy is a state...but both become important to us, even more so as we get older. Intimacy shows the genuine care and concern for the mate we love so deeply, and is given naturally and freely. That natural and free giving will happen for the WS when they feel safe to give it. (I am not saying you have not made it safe for him, but somewhere in HIS perception, something holds him back.)<P>BTW, hope you had a wonderful trip!! <P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart