SnL- I read your reply to my post last and I appreciate your honesty. My situtation: Been married 15 yeras, 3 boys 14, 9, and 2 years of age. My husband feels I have neglected his needs for several years now and never have taken his feelings into consideration on any part of our lives. Says he thought in his mind he made an effort to tell me and all I would do is blow up and not listen to him. He also stated that lots of time (and I believe this is what has really happened to get us to where we are now) he would "go along" with me on decisions even though he didn't support the final outcome, regardless of what it was. He says he feels used up and has no feelings of love for me anymore....that he feels he tried for so many years and I didn't care enough to take care of him. This hurts me so bad because I NEVER set out to hurt him in anyway. I feel this is awfully unfair because if I don't know there is a problem...(because he agreed and lead me to believe everything is OK) how could I have fixed it???? To know that he has stored up 4 or 5 years of resentment against me and I didn't know it and then he goes out finds him someone else to meet his needs --- I just don't understand how come he didn't tell me BEFORE he got involved with someone else!!! Why do WS's choose to not tell BS before it is to late! He keeps saying he did try to tell me but S&L, if he had said to me 2 years ago what he said to me in January of this (after he was already involved with someone) he would have got my attention immediately! He now says that OW was the outcome of our problems and when she is no longer in the picture, he still can't make me any promises....that the issues are not really her but the problems that existed before she came along....I agree with that but I sure do think his involvement with OW added a great deal more issues for us to work through. He says that his involvement with her doesn't have anything to do with how he feels about me. Do you understand that since you have been on the same side of the fence he is on? How can his involvment with her not impact his feelings for me? Also, since January, I have been trying very hard to straighten out allot of our problems and during that time he ignored my efforts and continued seeing OW....he will not admit to a PA but there is difinately a EA here.....let me tell you where we stand now....<BR>He and OW work together in an auto manufacturing plant. He is a team leader and she is one of his team members. They are in each others presence 8 to 10 hours, 5 days a week.<BR>What I requested from him in order for him to stay home were the following conditions:<BR>1. He would have to stop all cell phone contact with her.<BR>2. He couldn't play fantasy football in the same league she plays in (this is where I found their sexual play talk and the "I love you's" they have private chats on line)<BR>3. He would have to get re-asigned at work. Get moved away from her.<P>So far,,,,he says he is not calling her anymore (not completely sure he has stopped but think he has)<BR>He told me that he told her a week ago this past Tuesday night that it was over between them.....<BR>He is in the process of withdrawals real bad over the fantasy football thing....he really enjoys playing this and looks forward to it every year. I will know this weekend when if he has for sure given this up or not.... As far as moving to another area of the plant, he has not done anything about this yet....I know he doesn't want to this at all...says it is starting over for him and he doesn't want to it...I really want him to go to day shift so he can spend more time with us...he is on second shift and completely disconnected from me and his family...his job, the OW, and fantasy junk seems to be his life right now...<BR>S&L - in your honest opinion, do you think the EA has stopped with OW or do you think it is probably still going on because they are still together every night for 8-10 hours???<BR>Your thoughts from the "other side" Have I put to many demands on him right now?? All I am attempting to do is keep/get him away from OW. To your piont earlier, yes, it has to be of his own free will. He is struggling with the football and not wanting to move to another area of the plant. Again, your thoughts from the "other side"<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

I see some similarities and I will try to respond helpfully before the evening is over (I am mich here, where are you). A couple thoughts, is unlikely the A is over, but probably he is trying to end it. How you behave is absolutely critical to this process...NO LB. And why not ask you H how to play fantasy football, and play with him. Plus he can change his name, rejoin the league, and if he does not reveal himself no one (including ow will know who he is). You can play your own team, or maybe help him (like being the asst coach), keeping track of stuff, learning more about game, making suggestions about stuff, maybe you will have insight into what others might try (if you are good at reading people). My wife has a similar issue with posting here, she is afraid I will meet another OW who likes to talk and debate (how I met my ow, we made good friends first). But asking me not to use comp (much less not post on MB of all palces) is not gonna work...I like writing and thinking and persuasion, and is no good if talking just to yourself. So now she posts here, and I talk with her some about stuff going on.

sorry double post<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 29, 2001).]

Faith,<P>Your post strikes so many points for me i am not sure where to start!<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011906.html" TARGET=_blank>Recent thread on why not act or leave before the A</A> this thread covers alot of ground, you might find some useful data there.<P>There are many similar things in your situation to mine, I dont really want to rehash the story but i want to point out where they are/were the same.<P>12 years married two boys 11,5 went along with everything for wife because i thought thats what she wanted, ende up hating her for being so controlling, felt that she had choosen to be mother instead of wife, I was the inconvienence that came along with the paycheck. EA/PA for about a year, the EA was the Most important part (we lived 600 miles apart PA was very seldom and charged primarily out of the EA. I thought i was screaming at the top of my lungs that we had a problem (even bought the your marriage is in trouble books long before the A) and she just ignored it, or it didnt matter she was reasonably happy, not a perfect marriage for her, but not a disaster. I was the one who wasnt happy so it must be my problem right? (FYI, from my perspective, on D-Day i dont think i said anything different than what i had been saying for the past 6-7 years yet all of a sudden she heard it differently)<P>so i am a little jaded when i say, i doubt that he lived unhappily silent for 4-5 years just doesnt sound all that likely does it? <P>I cant tell you how many times i've heard that "I just dont understand why you didn't / dont say this or that" I understand now why ive heard that, because i had no voice, no confidence in myself to say what needs to be said. is that her or your fault? hard to answer, i felt taken advantage of, i was clearly to weak to have stood up for myself and my wife Stepped up to the plate, but she trampled me to do it. did she do the right thing? again i think she did what she thought was right, yet it was seemingly at my expense.<P>about the other woman and no contact, YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK! I know for a fact that i could not talk to see or even think about the OW without it affecting my ability to have genuine feeling for my W. its been over a year since ive had contact with OW and i can still taste her in my mouth when i hear a particular song. and that takes away from my wife there is no way i could have gotten over the OW if i saw her or talked to her daily. and as far as i am concerned there are real consequenses for having been involved with this girl. transferring to a different department is the least he should offer to do, I left a company id been with for 10 years and took a 25,000.00 cut in pay to put myself in the right place to have the best chance at success in my marriage. so i dont ever accept that i cant do anything about seeing the OP arguement.<P>EA's to me are much more incidious than the just for sex A's (not talking about addicts) the OP has become the Best Friend and they are difficult to give up especially when your wife hasnt been that person in a long time. <P>Think about what it means to him to have a best friend, someone he can say anything to without fear. this was the biggest thing for me, to be able to talk and say things without being judged for the thoughts, and without there being negative repercussions. I could talk about anything with OW I mean Anything, dont get me wrong we didnt agree about everything, she didnt just go along, she was a strong opinionated woman, yet she didnt judge what i said and didnt punish me for having a different ideal or goal..<P>i hope this is helpful, <P>------------------<BR>in loving service<BR>chaz

just bumped up so I wouldn't go off page...

Hi Faith, <P>I am also a WS; I hope I can help shed some light on your situation.<P>From personal experience I can verify that any traits you had that your H disliked and wanted you to change become magnified tenfold after the affair starts. IMO, this occurs for a few different reasons. First, the WS becomes somewhat emotionally detatched from the relationship (aka still loves you but is not 'in love') From that standpoint, your H can more clearly discern where some of the areas of disrepair are. Next, being with another person with different characteristics (good and bad), he can't help but notice the differences. And, last but not least, this serves as somewhat of a cushion/justification for his A. (A WS in the fog will likely deny this though.)<P>That said, perhaps there is some truth to what he said - about you not being open to his attempts to communicate with you about it. Men communicate differently from women, and it can be hard to hear what the key message is in their displeasure. Try to listen.<P>The next time you have the chance you might ask him the following questions:<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR><LI> Do you (H) still love me?<BR><LI> Do you wish in any way to attempt to recover our marriage?<BR><LI> Can you tell me what specifically you need me to change or do as your wife in order for you to feel 'in love' with me again?<BR></UL><P>Listen carefully to his responses. Let HIM talk, YOU listen. Be as prepaired as you can for any answer he may offer. Have your ducks in a row, so to speak. Know what you will say and how you will say it if he tells you he doesn't love you or want to continue the marriage. Hope for the best, expect the worst. Make every allowance for the best to happen.<P>If it turns out that he does still love you and wants to make it work and is able to tell you at least a few things he needs from you, at that time you can calmly re-state your position on no contact with OW. Gently urge him to see how as long as he is around this wench (don't use that word ) that his feelings for you will not have a fair chance at recovering. Be willing to change, or be willing to let him go.<P>I will be watching for your posts, hope this helps. Best of luck. <P>Khyra

Just wanted to let you guys know how much I appreicate your honesty and help. Just hearing the view point from the other side helps me better understand where H is coming from rather than me question him like a philadelphia lawyer about his involvement, I can still get a pretty good understanding as to what is going on inside of him....this is very helpful and keeps me from Lbusting so much.....I am scared if I keep hounding him for details and explanations and so on....I will run him off.......He is still home for now but we haven't settled the fantasy football thing yet for sure and he has not made any efforts to relocate on his job.....It really bothers me that they are together 10 hours a night and right now during this critical time, I can't really do anything about it....I am struggling....Again gentleman, thank you very much and S&L, Chaz, and Khyra, I really do appreicate your help right now....Gods blessings to you all....and yes, H probably did try and I guess I just didn't see it the way he did....this makes me sick that I didn't see the signs............<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

Any other comments/helpful responses would be appreciated....<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

faith,<P>were all interested, ask a follow up question, feed off what been written and propose a course of action then we can jump in and tell you how it might work or not work in the givin situation, <P>i know you want more input, but I for one need more handles to grab on to in order to give input.<P>so tell us whats going on in you head, what your thinking about doining or planning, whats your plan of attack how are you addressing the issues at hand.<P>ill keep checking in but if you want more youve got to provide the path.<P>

Thanks Chaz for responding.....Well let me tell you where we are now..<BR>H is still at home...<BR>Today we discussed the fantasy football issue. As I have stated before, he has been participating in this for a number of years at work and actually started the league...All the players expect him to play....he has had a very difficult time giving this up...OW is the only woman playing in the league....After some discussions today ...I asked him how I could trust him to just play with the other memebers and not use the chat room as a means to communicate with OW......he told me that he could handle it and that I could have his passwords and monitor the activity.....to just trust that he would not attempt any contact with her.....I ask him what about the weeks he plays her....he said he would just set his lineup and not have a discussion with her on the game....let the game play and move to the next week....I explained to him that if there was any evidence of communication between them that I would not tolerate it and he would have to move out......no more chances...we are through with those....Be sure because this is big risk......to me it is like dangling a carrot in front of a horse and not expecting the horse to grab it....he says he can handle it....I will be monitoring the activity....do you think I caved in and shouldn't have done it....I am trying to work with him but I don't want to hurt us in the process.....enabling him......Also, I have quit asking details about the relationship.....I have just started focusing on making our home as peaceful, loving, (from a distance) nice as I can.....trying to meet his needs....speaking of needs, he hasn't touched me since Feb and doen't want any sexual contact with me at all.....he says that since he has no feelings for me he doesn't feel right touching me.....this is the hardest for me.....I don't know what to do about this.....just wait him out???? I sure am not going to pressure him in any way.....I think he is in withdrawal over OW (it has only been a week and a half since he told her they were through) and coupled with the fact that he has no feelings for me....this is what he is struggling with the hardest...staying at home in a loveless relationship with me, thinking there is little hope of recovering any feelings for me and then giving up OW and thinks he will never be happy....What should I do at this critical stage.....pressure to go ahead and move away from OW completely? or just see what happens for awhile.....<P>------------------<BR>always-faith4us

faith...He also stated that lots of time (and I believe this is what has really happened to get us to where we are now) he would "go along" with me on decisions even though he didn't support the final outcome, regardless of what it was. He says he feels used up and has no feelings of love for me anymore....that he feels he tried for so many years and I didn't care enough to take care of him. This hurts me so bad because I NEVER set out to hurt him in anyway. I feel this is awfully unfair because if I don't know there is a problem...(because he agreed and lead me to believe everything is OK) how could I have fixed it???? <P>snl....I have similar feelings re my wife, and it is a common marital problem. Often one person is more emotionaly dominant (and uses or threatens to use anger, withdrawal of affection, criticism etc.) for problem resolution, the other is more of an avoider, and clams up to keep the peace (only to explode, or leave, later). The bs often laments if you only told me....frankly I think that is a lot of horse puckey. Why is it his responsibility to tell you the marriage is in trouble? You have eyes and a brain, the symptons were there, is just as valid to "blame" you for not seeing what was going on. And chances are he did tell you, many times, before he gave up, you just blew him off in one way or the other, and now it has caught up with you. Not trying to make you feel bad, cause I think it is a waste of time to assign blame anyways. Now you know, and you fix it or not, dwelling on assigning blame (even if in your own mind) is counter-productive and will do far more additional harm than good.<P>faith...To know that he has stored up 4 or 5 years of resentment against me and I didn't know it and then he goes out finds him someone else to meet his needs --- I just don't understand how come he didn't tell me BEFORE he got involved with someone else!!! <P><BR>snl...because he didn't, but he found someone else cause he wants to emotionally survive, and you were killing him.<P>faith...Why do WS's choose to not tell BS before it is to late! He keeps saying he did try to tell me but S&L, if he had said to me 2 years ago what he said to me in January of this (after he was already involved with someone) he would have got my attention immediately! <P>snl...No one chooses faith, it is life, it is a process, it happens this way cause it happens, it is not his failure, it is a failure of the marriage, and you played a role. Also is very unlikely you would have fixed anything had he told you he was thinking of ow, you would have more likely done what had worked for you before, what you feel comfortable with, told him he was wrong in one way or another. He would have said you are right, I am such a loser, and clammed up. Bs will (IMO) rarely fix anything until hit in the head with a 2x4. btw my wife says the same things you (and so many other bs do)....I am a talker, I had complained, often, loudly, and in detail, including dozens of letters for first 10 years of marriage about my issues.....it all fell on deaf ears. Still is for the most part, even despite the affair. The only feelings important to her.... are hers. How about you?<P>faith...He now says that OW was the outcome of our problems and when she is no longer in the picture, he still can't make me any promises....that the issues are not really her but the problems that existed before she came along....I agree with that but I sure do think his involvement with OW added a great deal more issues for us to work through. <P>snl...No it doesn't. The ow adds a few immediate concerns, but the fundamental problems are unchanged, and are the issue, not the ow. If you are lucky he did not find ow he truly fell in love with, that does make it harder, but is pretty rare.<P>faith...He says that his involvement with her doesn't have anything to do with how he feels about me. Do you understand that since you have been on the same side of the fence he is on? How can his involvment with her not impact his feelings for me? <P>snl...Yes, I understand, as does lighthouse, hopeless, lexxy, trueheart, and most every other ws. It is never about you, it is about us, and what we need/feel. In fact it kinda annoys us when you try to make it about you, that is often one of the reasons we left, everything is always about you...finally we do something that is not about you, can never be about you.<P>faith...Also, since January, I have been trying very hard to straighten out allot of our problems and during that time he ignored my efforts and continued seeing OW....he will not admit to a PA but there is difinately a EA here.....<P>snl...I hope that means you are trying to straighten out faiths problems.... not H too, let him solve his own problems, or you seriously impede your chance to recover....he has to CHOOSE you on his own, you cannot fix that.<P>faith...S&L - in your honest opinion, do you think the EA has stopped with OW or do you think it is probably still going on because they are still together every night for 8-10 hours???Your thoughts from the "other side" Have I put to many demands on him right now?? <P>snl...IMO make no demands...work on yourself, and listening to him only. Suggestions and clarifications are ok, just be careful they don't morph into disrespectful judgements or selfish demands. The only demand (and should not be presented as such) a bs can legitimately make is to request no contact, and if not complied with go to plan a....but even that has a lot of wrinkles to it. I also think a bs should set a sex boundary (none until the ws does no contact)...but many bs are unwilling to do that, I think it is a huge mistake. Good luck.<P><BR>