You are asking good questions. You have pretty well described Plan A as you say:<p>K.."I think I understand that it's about ME, not her. But isn't the overall goal for me to make myself so attractive to her that she decides to end the A and to decide to work on the M? Again, my motivation is for ME, so that IF she does make that decision, I'll be well on my way to being a better may, however if she decides NOT to come back, I'll be well on my way to being prepared for any FUTURE relationships. Tell me if I'm wrong here."<p>You are right about all of that. Here is how she will notice:<p>1. She hasn't cut off all contact. You have said in several posts that she will call you. You are even expecting her to call you tonight. Obviously, even if you two are headed for a divorce there is alot more to do and alot of business to take care of, so it is not like you just are never going to see or hear from her again - like she dropped off the face of the earth. Sometimes spouses wish this would happen, but it doesn't.<p>2. Based on your performance the first 3 weeks, she is expecting you to call, grovel, beg, stalk, show up unexpectedly.... you have shown her this is how you will behave. So, when you stop all of that (and I mean really stop it!), it will certainly get her attention. She may be waiting for the other shoe to fall for a few days, but she will definately notice that you seem to be managing your life differently than you have in the past 21 days.<p>3. Finally, and I think most importantly, when you really begin to put your focus, and I mean your ENERGY on Kev, you will feel better. You won't even believe it is happening, but it will be. And here is why - because you are in control. You will be in a position of strength. While you are waiting for your wife to do or say what you wish, you are not in control. You are at the mercy of whatever fogeese comes out of her mouth next. But, in a good Plan A that eases up some. <p>I am not saying this comes easy. I am not saying anyone can execute it flawlessly. But, I am saying it works. It works to build you back.
Good luck,
M

Elad- thank you for that, I'll take the advice about caffeine under advisement. That brought a grin to my face, and I know you're exactly right. I know that in the last three weeks (well at least since I found THIS site), I've been a tornado of wanting to do EVERYTHING, everything to fix me, to fix my M, to fix my W, to fix the A, EVERYTHING. You see, for the last year I have quite literally wanted to do NOTHING- eat, sex, work, hobbies, talk, hold hands, go to church, NOTHING. Now that I'm on meds and the stone is off of my soul, I have so much catching up to do. I'm trying to live the last year in the next three weeks. Get it? So, YES I can see your point about me being hard to keep up with. I can't even keep up with myself half the time, I've got about 12 projects started (and nearly complete) that I've been putting off for a VERY long time! WAY too much energy and anxiety.<p>El, Fix, & Wiff- I see and understand your points about giving it space, be mysterious, etc.... I agree that it's going to be hard, ESPECIALLY since I want to fix it HANDS ON so badly. I KNOW that won't work, it's been painfully obvious so far.<p>I feel like I'm FINALLY turning a corner and believing in what I already know to be the only path to take. I know it's not going to be quick, or easy, or painless, or even guaranteed. I know that this CAN work (It worked w/ my girlfriend before I met WS), I just never dreamed I'd have to employ all this in my M...I thought it was guaranteed to always be there.<p>I know that's not the case now, and I can protect against it in my next relationship (whoever that might be with).<p>Thank you all! I don't think I would have made it through this DAY, let alone the last three weeks and the coming months without you all, literally.<p>K

oops, dupe!<p>[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Dude,<p>You are going nuts. YOu have been given lots of good advice on the most likely way to save your marriage. Don't continue to argue with these folks, especially the female WS - they are speaking from your wife's perspective. As much as you don't want to believe their ideas, they are based in repeated human behavior.<p>Have you considered you life without your wife? Would you die if she didn't come back? If you continue to act as if this is the case you will drive her further away.<p>I would have you consider another course of action. Work your way out of the relationship because she is not a quality person. All you WS can slam me if you want but a quality spouse does not take off and f*** another person whilst married. Look around and see what you find attractive in other females. Get your legal stuff in order to protect yourself in case of a divorce. Work on making yourself marketable to women - work out, new clothes, hair cut, yoga, whatever.<p>This will do two things.<p>1. You will become happier because you will not be wasting your time hurting yourself with her actions.<p>2. She will likely notice that you are preparing to move on and really questing her current status.<p>Good luck.<p>Bob

EB- I didn't realize that I WAS arguing with anyone....I'm simply trying to work it out in my own head, ask questions, seek guidance.<p>I agree with the advice that I've been given. Nobody knows more than me how hard it'll be to follow, but I'm going to try.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Have you considered you life without your wife? Would you die if she didn't come back? If you continue to act as if this is the case you will drive her further away. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I have. It would suck for a while, but I WOULD be able to carry on (with the support of people such as yourself, and God). No, I wouldn't die. I've already been dead inside for the last year. I know how that feels (or DOESN'T feel), and I don't like it. But now that I know that I have a depressive problem, I think half the battle is won. I need to develope some NEW coping skills, and that's what I'm doing in therapy.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> ...because she is not a quality person.... <hr></blockquote><p>I agree that the person that she is RIGHT NOW, is not a quality person, and I fault her for the multitude of choices that she made each and every time she had contact with him. But I cannot fault her for falling out of love with me, that's MY fault, and for falling IN love w/ OM (basic MB principles- he met all her EN===> she fell in love). But at her core, she IS a devout Christian, a good friend, a good listener, a good teacher, a beautiful and thoughtful person. I hope to one day see that girl of my affection again. But I have no control over that.<p>I HAVE been working on me, but I've been getting wrapped up in her situation as well, and have been losing sleep over HER. I know that's counterproductive, unhealthy, and just plain wrong. I'm dedicating myself to the principles (and advice) found here. I've started to work out again, I've picked up some of my hobbies again (darts, home improvement, outtings w/ friends, etc...), and I'm seeking therapy to deal with the multitude of issues I have (childhood through adulthood).<p>This is ALL going to make me a better person FOR ME. Because I don't like the man I've been in recent years...I had gotten away from some of my beliefs (truth, admiration, affection, honor, straight forwardness), and I am going to get back to them.<p>This has definitely been a weird day, I started on a high, confident in my efforts. Then rock bottom after she suggested we not see each other, desperate and needy. And now, I feel pretty good about myself. I know I will make it, I know I'm going to be a better man (and hopefully one day, a good father) because of all of this.<p>Thank you all and thank God for this day.<p>Sorry to have taken up so much time/energy from you all.
K

[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] HA! HA! HA! LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ooooh, I'm cracking up over here... When I read the part where you said you were feeling like the energizer bunny on crack, I was going to say that you needed to take up running and go for a nice, long jog, dude! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Glad to hear you are taking out some of that energy at the gym--very constructive! Good for you!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong> I've started to work out again...<p>Sorry to have taken up so much time/energy from you all.
K</strong><hr></blockquote><p>NO NEED to apologize, this is what we're all here for, right?

OK, so today's another day....Got another email from WS, here it is:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
So is that all you have to say in response to my email? How were you thinking we would proceed from this point? Be specific. ALso, do you think
we can do Thanksgiving? I do. My mom and dad want us to be there, or at least me, on Wed. because they are bringing some older friends of theirs for
their daughter to pick up. I know you don't believe me, but I am sorry for your hurt and sorry the timing wasn't right for us both to try. I think ultimately that you will be a healthier happier person after all this is over. This all sucks, but we'll grow and move on, and maybe someday, we'll be friends again. I pray for you and me, my parents, and all our friends to try to understand and get through this. Sorry I've let you down. WS <hr></blockquote><p>What I want to say is that I want what's best for her, but I'm afraid she'll think I'm saying "I'm best for her." I want to tell her that I want whatever will make her happiest, but I'm afraid that that will give the A my stamp of approval. I want to tell her that I know she needs time to sort things out, but I'm afraid that she'll see that as me just waiting in the wings for her and OM to fail and not working on ME. I want to tell HER to be specific as to how we'll procede. I want to explain to her that I don't think she's thinking clearly right now, and that maybe she'd see things differently in a month or two, or if she completely and permanently ended the A. I know that I won't say that, and even though she says it's not about the A, she has said that she doesn't want to end it....there's no way it could NOT be about the A.<p>While I DO feel the way that I'm afraid she'll take any of those responses (except that I'm waiting in the wings), I know that me indicating that will help any.<p>I'm know that right now, the only thing she wants is a DV, and I'm pretty sure her request for specifics is a test to see if I'm amenable to that idea. I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT!<p>I believe the remorse in her words, I believe that she truly IS sorry for hurting me and letting me down and not being willing to at least TRY. But I also think I know the depth of her feelings for OM and against ME (specifically during the last 3 weeks).<p>Any input will be welcome.<p>Thanks all.
Kev<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kevco,
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is really such a drag and rough! I don't want to minimize what is going on in your life but this is just so "TextBook". Her response, her actions, her attitudes. It really does help to be educated in all this to know and to keep your sanity. She loves you, she wants the relationship on her terms. She wants her cake and eat it too. She is testing the waters to see where you are. Your response threw her for a loop. <p>Here is my opinion on a response (take it or leave it - only you know what is best)<p>Apology accepted. I do not want to talk about Thanksgiving just yet - I am not sure what I'll do but I will let you know. You said "Be specific" I just want you to be happy. I am just respecting your decision to be friends "someday" but not now as you said. <p>Kevco, Don't get sucked into talking about the future. She is waffeling back and forth. Says she wants to be your friend someday then says she wants to spend Thanksgiving with you. I wouldn't talk about Thanksgiving with her until the day before. <p>Kevco, you have won the hearts of many here at MB and I believe you will win her heart too.<p>Hang in there and take care of you!!!

Really the key in any future conversations and email is to be short, to the point, and positive.

Not, <p>Um, have you SEEN any of my posts? SHORT? That'll be a challenge! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I thank you for your words of guidance. I'm composing a letter (probably my first plan B letter, but right now I'm keeping it in the context of a response. I have no intention of sending it, but just want to get my thoughts down on paper. Also, I don't want to be "specific" until after I have a chance to talk to Steve next Tuesday.<p>I agree that nearly EVERYTHING she's saying has been said hundereds of times WORD FOR WORD. Problem is, I see it, but SHE doesn't...If only she'd understand that, maybe her words would sound as silly to her as they do to me...but I'm not going to educate her any more.<p>Thanks! I'll probably post my letter when it's complete.<p>K

I agree with both responses as to how to approach the second e-mail. Don't get specific yet. She wants you to say - "Ok, lets see an attorney, draw up an agreement and be divorced by Christmas..." Don't fall into that and hand her the divorce on a silver platter.<p>I would say something like this:<p>WS,
It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. <p>I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. <p>Talk to you soon,
Kev<p>This way you address honestly her question about specific next steps and you are telling her you need more time, without asking that it be dragged out. She can't make you make a move. This may frustrate her, but SO WHAT?<p>Short, kind and to the point. And upbeat. <p>M

Kev,<p>Wiffle has it down .... that's a great response. And don't waiver!<p>

"WS,<p>It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. <p>I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. <p>Talk to you soon,
Kev" <p>
Love,
Jo

I like Wiffle's response. Maybe even add "be patient with me"<p>This will bide more time for the fog to lift or at least until your counseling session.

"WS,
It is hard for me to be very specific about next steps at this point. Keep in mind that I am not where you are on the path to end our marriage. <p>I am not sure about my plans for Thanksgiving, but I will let you know as soon as I decide what would be best for me. <p>Talk to you soon,
Kev" <p>Kev,
This is sooo good! Go with this! Don't you see?
She's trying to manipulate the situation, stay in control, and doesn't like it that you've pulled away and seem to NOT get sucked into her game. <p>Asking if that's all you have to say...is telling. It tells ME that she wanted MORE from you....something she could "hang her hat on..." know what you were thinking, or going to do next.<p>I definitely would not give her specifics at this point. Be vague, unavailable, whatever it takes to keep her at arms' length.<p>So she wants a div. BUT wants to do Thanksgiving at her FOLKS?!?!?! Did I miss something??? What's the matter with her *new* *boyfriend*? Something's rotten here.<p>Her parents obviously aren't OK with it, as it states in her letter, "I pray for you and me, my parents, and all our friends to try to understand and get through this."
This tells me, too, that she wants to put on a "front" for them. NO!! Don't do it!!! Let her have to live with the consequences of this decision...it'll help lift the fog if she has to sit at Thanksgiving table with her parents all upset with her over this. But don't tell her that, now!
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What I want to say is that I want what's best for her, but I'm afraid she'll think I'm saying "I'm best for her."<hr></blockquote>
Doesn't matter what she'll think. Say it anyway (IF you get the chance, or in E-mail). Let her think anything at all. It'll be in her head, and will "rattle around in there" and eventually come up, when she's ready to make REAL decisions. I did it to my WH. Told him I want what will make him happy.....wanted to GAG, but did it anyway. That IS true love, isn't it? It's really true, just that WE want US to be what's best for them...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I want to tell her that I want whatever will make her happiest, but I'm afraid that that will give the A my stamp of approval.<hr></blockquote>
She may think that for now, but when the A is on its dying throes, she'll think back to you saying this to her, and consider YOU as what will make her happiest.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I want to tell her that I know she needs time to sort things out, but I'm afraid that she'll see that as me just waiting in the wings for her and OM to fail<hr></blockquote>
YOU ARE!!! It doesn't matter what she thinks about that.....read others' posts here (returning WS's) who comment to their BS's how HAPPY and THANKFUL they are that they NEVER "gave up" on them while they were in the fog.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I want to tell HER to be specific as to how we'll proceed. I want to explain to her that I don't think she's thinking clearly...<hr></blockquote>
Not gonna happen...she doesn't WANT to think clearly, OR she thinks she IS and won't want to hear YOU tell her she's NOT! She thinks she knows what she wants, BUT may be experiencing guilt and doesn't want to be the "bad guy" so if YOU make all these final decisions, it can all be blamed on YOU. Don't fall for it! <p>I hope this isn't all too much to digest, but this is what jumped out at me from what you posted, and other stuff I've learned through these months during my WAIT for my WH to get out of the fog (still there!).<p>God Bless,
Lupo

Lupo,<p>I think that that response is very near what I'm going to reply with. I said it the other night after she had left...less is more, but that's so incredibly hard for me. But I WILL do it.<p>I have no intentions of giving her any specifics, because she doesn't want to hear what MY specifics are and she'll only see them as LB. I'd much rather her try to figure them out for herself.<p>Just FYI, Thanksgiving is going to be at our (my) house. We had already planned it prior to D-Day, and afterwards, I still wanted to have it here.<p>Her parents are MOST DEFINITELY against the A and OM. Her mom flat out told them that he would NOT be welcome in their house, EVER. Now, her dad is a little more forgiving, and would probably give in eventually, but maybe not.<p>You're probably right about the things I WANT to say to her. Maybe I'll work them into a message (just not this one). I'll keep them short and simple without my usual explanations and all. Just let her take them as they are and wonder.<p>I agree that,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> she doesn't WANT to think clearly, OR she thinks she IS... <hr></blockquote><p>I have no intention of telling her that (again).<p>Thanks, I'm about ready to send the email.<p>Kev<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

WoW!<p>How did I miss the part where your W's OB (other boy) is "19 Years old"???<p>Kev,<p>I'm not discriminating against the age difference at all (11 years), I just believe that a 19 year old, regardless of how mature he appears, is so wet behind the ears and doesn't have the life experiences it would require to sustain a mature lasting relationship. <p>The advice you've been given has been very good, follow it and you'll make it thru this.<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to hop in and throw my two cents into the pile. Just in case an opinion from a WS would help. <p>First of all kev, you and WS need to cease the mind games. That means the bs (and I don't mean betrayed spouse) emails and other exchanges, especially the stalking. WS or 19yr old might end up getting a restraining order, making your life dramatically different.<p>You can't kill the affair, so don't waste your time trying to inflict another case of blue balls on the 19yr old. <p>Harley promotes the concept that the A will ultimately die a natural death. I don't think any BS's efforts to exert undue influence are going to help the process. Wouldn't that be contrary to "a natural death"???<p>Understandably, it seems as if kev would like that to happen very soon. The centiment that I am getting from this and other threads posted by kev is that he's trying to speed up the process to suit his own needs, desires, and goals. As a seasoned WS, I can say this approach would only push me farther away. <p>Kev, I see no kids in your mix, so backing off and giving her some space; even forcing her to take it would seem the best thing to do. Let the A run its course and it'll eventually die. Remember, you cannot force it to die, but you sure can prolong its duration.<p>
That's my take.

Kevco, I'm partial to the "that's fine, Take care" response. It'll leave her wondering for a change. May not help but it certainly can't hurt.<p>Regarding the "false hope" thing... That is my personal favorite! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] That's been a standard in my home. Take it all with a grain of salt. It's tough but it can be done. <p>Sounds like you need to do the same thing I've had to do. BACK OFF!! It's hard man, this I know! Give her some space and let her discover what she will. You need to really internalize that you have zero control over her actions. I'm still struggling with that. <p>I would also highly recommend leaving her alone. What do you gain from knowing the intimate details of the A? Is there really anything new to learn? At this juncture really all you're doing is hurting yourself. I've had a tough time with this one too [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just another dip in the ride man, step back and take a break! You need time to recharge your batteries as well for round 2. I wish you all the best!<p>Take care,
Paul

BH and SF2G,<p>DONE!<p>Thanks BH for giving you input. Another perspective from the WS is ALWAYS welcome...I think that a couple have replied with similar sentiments. And yeah, I can take not knowing FAR more than knowing and seeing what they're doing (found that out the hard way). Though, I feel that I DO know what they're doing and when because as I've said in a couple of posts, I REALLY believe that I'm in tune with WS (I haven't been wrong yet...at least since I got on the meds and I can actually think a little clearly and I can FEEL again).<p>I know the odds against the A working are EXTREMELY high, but remember (or not if you missed it), my mother has been with/married to OM for 9 years, and so I'm PARTICULARLY sensitive to that possibility....PLUS, this "kid" is an awefully lot like the ME that WS originally fell in love with, though I MUST say I was MUCH BETTER. Plus, she's been awefully willing to accept MY faults to date, though she says she's no longer going to do that for anybody....I wonder.<p>I hear you (and everyone) when you're saying that I can't force the A to end. That sucks! But I know it's true, I know I've ALREADY driven her closer to him- I just hope not TOO close. You're right, I'm trying to speed the recovery process just as much as she's trying to speed the DV process, wouldn't it be nice if we could meet in the middle? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I'm done with rushing it, I'm now in it for the long haul, and I know it's going to hurt and be difficult, but I see that it's my only shot.<p>OH, btw, she called this evening hoping to come over and use the propane torch on her baskets. UM, she HAS a key, why do you suppose she needs to ask my permission? HMMM I just don't get her.<p>Thank you all,
Kev<p>[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Good for you Kev. Stick with it.<p>Also, if you two are separated, I believe she would need your consent to come into the house, regardless whether or not she has a key. Otherwise, she could be accused of trespassing. If she's seen an attorney, chances are she's been apprised of that. Don't try to read anything else into it. Just stay focused on you.<p>Hang in there and keep the right attitude. Trust me, she'll see the light eventually and when she does, you want to be there with your head on straight and no regrets when the fog lifts.