This has been on my mind off and on for a while now. So I'm bringing it up for discussion.<p>When the WS involved themselves in an A, at some point they made a conscious decision to cross that line, where it went from friends to a full blown intimate A. I realize at first they may have "unconsciously", out of unmet needs, innocently allowed themselves to become close to an OP and felt is was an appropriate friendship, unaware of the A potential. But eventually they did make a "decision" and had an A.<p>My point is, the BS never made a conscious decision, at least I didn't, not to meet the WS's needs which eminently drove them to that A. <p>When we talk about how "a Vow is a Vow is a Vow" regarding our marriages, I agree that our WS were possibly in deep pain because the BS may not have been meeting a need or needs that they "Vow'd" to meet. Yet it wasn't a conscious decision on the BS part to NOT meet those needs. <p>I'm not trying to shurk or justify what I feel was my part in what utlimately ended my marriage. I accept that responsibility and I now know exactly what I didn't do. I'm just confused when I hear how I wasn't meeting my H's needs (a Vow) therefore he failed to keep his Vows and had an A. <p>I just needed to get this out. Probably one of my D phases I need to get thru to help understand what really happened to my marriage. <p>Thanks for listening, any feedback is greatly appreciated.<p>Love,
Jo<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Jo,<p>I with you. I don't think a part of me will understand. My STBX at times has acted like I willing didn't meet his needs and that his actions have been totally justified. The OW really does believe this, that she did nothing wrong, leaving her marriage, and going after my then H, that it was my fault as I didn't take care of him.<p>I know what I did wrong, but if all this bother him so much, and way before he met OW, then why did he ever say anything.

You know Jo, I have asked myself that question, too. I don't think there is any easy answer to it. In my case, I thought we were going through a phase in our marriage. We had small children--and I was consumed with them. I still thought we had a good marriage.<p>I did NOT set out to ignore my H needs. If I had known, really known, then I would've done something about it BEFORE this all happened. I think it all comes down to a lack of true communication. Everyone's fault! I know I held grudges for a long time---I am a stay at home mom, and felt very isolated. I had always been such an outgoing person. I need to talk, and my H had outside interests----ones that I didn't participate in because I felt he was doing it to get away from us (the kids and me). He was actually doing it (weightlifting) to make himself more desirable to me. If only we would've talked then................<p>I now know what not to do, and I feel that I am a much better person and wife, and mother than before. I know I didn't really answer your question, but I think the WS didn't know how to talk to us---to really make us listen to their pain. Either that, or I was too dumb to see it??<p>I look back now and see alot of things I should've done differently, but you know about hindsight.......<p>I hope I shed some light on this for you...<p>Krystal

Dear Resilient:<p>What a profound question.<p>This is the hard part: To go under a microscope of 20/20 vision, and freeze the moment in time when the WS took the decision to betray. In order to do that, the WS needed to get past the little feeling of doubt. The little feeling, a sort of "bump" in their heart or mind that they ignore or refuse to recognize. A "bump" that signals a wrong turn, a wavering on the moral compass (if they dare to look at it) which signals that they are not on True North any more.<p>The WS's who have clarity can say "that was where I saw what I was doing but did it anyway."<p>The WS's who deny that it was an affair recite from the script and rewrite their history with the spouse/significant other. The WS's who admit the affair (where there is living proof such as an OC) don't want to cop to a purely selfish action, and so point their finger back at the BS ("you made me do it!")<p>Why the compulsion, Resilient, to examine the inner workings of your WS's unfaithful heart? Why the obsession? What good will it do if you finally "get it?" I ask because I do exactly the same thing, and ask myself the same questions. <p>I know though, how much of my H's straying was my own doing, I remember time and again when I decided to not meet his needs. Unlike you, I made those decisions consciously. I drove him away bit by bit.<p>Would it help to point out that your exH is by nature unfaithful, and that no matter what you had done, how hard you had worked, he would have made the same choices?<p>I too feel compelled and obsessed. It doesn't help, it keeps me stuck in a bog of pain, taking Zoloft and sitting in a shrink's office every Monday morning, digging at the wound.

I&#8217;ve had this conversation with my WS a number of times of late. I suppose my situation may be subtly different than many here in that I was diagnosed as been chronically depressed shortly after D-Day. I&#8217;ve been in the midst of depression for at least 10 years. WS put up with it for all that time before finding someone to meet her needs.<p>From talking to her, things escalated very slowly, one conversation at a time. First playing on-line then E-mail and phone calls. She was in love with him before she realized what had happened. I tend to believe this. She did make a conscious decision to go meet him and consummate the A. <p>I really don&#8217;t hold any animosity towards my W. In many respects (as I can look back now and see how I was in my daze) I&#8217;m surprised that she is still here today. She&#8217;s an incredible woman! I feel fully responsible for sowing the seeds that landed us here. The only thing that I hold against her is that she didn&#8217;t openly pursue her relationship with OM and opted for the lies, duplicity and betrayal.<p>In many respects she certainly feels that I betrayed her in the same way. I abandoned her emotionally. She thinks that at some point I had to make a conscious decision not to seek help. I think that it is more to ease her conscience than anything else. I made no decision to be or stay in a depressed state. I ask her when it arises why she thinks I would consciously decide to isolate myself from everyone I care about in my life. Why would I choose to do what I have to her yet still be here trying to save it? Apparently even the fog can&#8217;t override that logic, I&#8217;m yet to get an answer.<p> I doubt she&#8217;ll ever feel remorseful for the A. She says she&#8217;s sorry that she hurt me but that&#8217;s the extent. I guess in many respects I can see her justification as well. I&#8217;m not sure I could have lived what she has for as long as she did. I just wish she&#8217;d had enough respect for both of us to be overt about the relationship&#8230;
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Jo...<p>I am having the same struggle...and I believe it because our spouses haven't OWNED what they have done without the "howevers and the because yous." <p>How can we come to peace when 'they' still 'blame' us or justify their A?<p>Bottom line...THEY DID WHAT THEY DID BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO...they found reasons, excuses, justifications and allowed themselves to believe that they deserved it...they were dead and the fantasy love life 'made' them alive...we didn't love them anymore so it was okay...<p>Until they fully admit that they did what they did because they wanted to...END OF STORY...we will have a hard time with closure...<p>I think true recovery occurs when both parties can see how they both contributed to the marital environment...BUT...the WS has to admit that whatever environment there was the A was a poor choice...a selfish choice where their taker took over.<p>C A L I

I might be wrong, but it's my impression that affairs begin in the mind.<p>Inward thoughts lead to outward acts.<p>When that OP enters the marital bed through the WS's mind, it's over!<p>No one who has had an affair, didn't first THINK about it. I refuse to believe that so I definitely agree with you on that point. I also agree that not meeting the spouse's needs CAUSES the affair, it may contribute, tho. Lack of communication on WSs part is no excuse to blame the BSs for affairs either!<p>Oh well, what the heck do I know anyway. I have not been married that long and I am definitely still learning. My neighbor has been married for 37 years and he said it is harder now than it ever was so [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] what in the world did he mean by THAT!!!!???? YIKES!

Resilient,<p>I do think that some BSs have either ignored or not considered the damage their intentional or unintentional neglect of their spouse's needs has had on their marriage. And when this happens, I also think it sends a clear signal that they either don't care or aren't bothered enough to do something about it. And, I do think that some spouses take this neglect as a justification for starting their affair. Sort of, well if you don't care enough about me to do something then somebody else will (or does).<p>However, I'm thinking that the problem could be avoided by the careful setting of boundaries within the marriage AND some basic negotiation skills. I don't know on how many management and communication trainings I've been on in my life - I'm great with the most difficult of employees but I failed at some of the most basic rules of communication and negotiation in my marriage.<p>Oh, and one last thought - in my opinion, it's the FACT of being married that gets us in this state. As soon as we take something for granted, we abuse it's very nature. Unintentionally of course [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] but then ignorance isn't an excuse, it's laziness.<p>For what it's worth that's my 2cents for a Friday night.....<p>- Freddy<p>[ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

Freddy...you hit it on the head for me...<p>Self-realization #1 occurred in January..."How could I treat my friends and coworkers better than I did my H?"<p>If familiarity breeds contempt...how do we prevent it or put protections into place so that we don't 'hurt' one another? <p>C A L I

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>I might be wrong, but it's my impression that affairs begin in the mind.<p>Inward thoughts lead to outward acts.<p>When that OP enters the marital bed through the WS's mind, it's over!<p>No one who has had an affair, didn't first THINK about it.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>As someone who was once a WS, these words ring very true. <p>I don't even like to think about what was going through my head at the moment I "crossed the line" (and by the way, it was way before we entered the "marital bed" aspect, which happened only once THANKFULLY). <p>I cannot and WILL NOT blame my ex for not meeting my needs. I made a conscience choice to have an affair, even though I was so messed up in the head I could barely comb my hair, let alone take care of my H and/or this OM. The whole thing is so seedy and ugly I can barely comprehend that *I* was that person.<p>Conversely, when my (then)H cheated, it was not my fault. Oh yeah, I wasn't meeting all his needs. I know this. But let's face it, young mothers (those first three affairs happened when my kids were so young) have so much trouble being sexy and sexual while they are working 24/7 taking care of three wee ones. It's so unfair, even though true, that if you don't take care of the marriage someone else will step in and do it for you. IT MAKES ME LIVID THOUGH. I was doing the best that I could!!
His last affairs were in retaliation for my affair. Well, c'mon, what is that? No, he allowed my stupidity to open a door he long wanted reopened... and he went through the open door. I didn't hold it open for him. HE CHOSE to go through it.<p>Did I even answer your question Jo?? I was venting a bit...<p>Personal responsibility for your actions and choices... that's what it's about to me.

While I am a BS, it is not within my normal nature to blame others unneccessarily. Neither do I appreciate being the brunt of blame for someone else's error's. I learned that hard lesson here!!!<p>So I am well aware that acknowledgement of one's own errors or misjudgement is good for recovery (personal or marital). However, taking unnecessary blame, over apologizing for the A committed by the WS it not healthy for either party (BS & WS). Of course, I speak from my limited experience but my H knew he was wrongly placing all the blame on me and the OW was fueling his fire. When light of day finally hit, the WS admitted he was wrong. Not that I was blame free but that I was accused beyond my own error. <p>So what does this mean? For me when the WS is in the fog all the talk of blame, love you not in love with you stuff, etc., this is NOT the time to find reason in what the WS is saying. As hard as it can be, it is really the time to step back Plan A, let them babble until they wear themselves out (let the A die a natural death). During this time the BS's best interest is to strengthen themselves to prepare for whatever 'this way cometh' from the
WS and company (OP whatever). The BS will learn their own internal strengths and weaknesses. The BS will also learn their personal timeframe, one of which may be forced upon them if things like physical changes take place (sickness, anxiety, etc.). <p>So whether there is a natural death of the A (plan A or B) or not (mostly plan B), the BS becomes equipped to handle their lives and move on. With or without the WS turning back in the spouse. <p>What happens to the WS? Well that is up to the WS. The BS is constantly reminded they are not the keeper of the WS. The BS has no control over the Ws. Ok maybe we do or we don't. Let's say we don't. Then the WS needs to take care of themslves. If we do, then the WS needs to work with the BS just like the BS needs work with the WS and eventually the WS and BS relinquish their titles and move forward as H & W. There is no room for a 3rd party here. 1 relationship, 1 family. Any more is diasterous and physically can't be done (like sleeping in two beds in 2 different houses at the same time - there was another mental picture in my mind but it was too horrible to mention [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Bad childhood, bad previous relationships, ethinic background, environment, work conditions, personal relationships, internet, whatever. These are conditions. There are WS and Bs here from all backgrounds some have an A others don't in similar situations. It is not always the situation that makes an A but that is where we focus most of our attention. What is fairly consistent is that most of the choices of the OP are those with questionable characters. Even the recovered WSs may not want their children, brothers or sisters to associate with someone who acted like them when they were in the A. So if it is such a bad thing why keep it up? No reason, just selfish and greedy. That is not love of neighbor according to the 'golden rule'.<p>So are the BS's to take as much of the blame as being handed by the WS? IMHO, NO!!!!! Now WS's go figure what this all means. BS's you can digest this also but I think, you can follow all this talk right?<p>L.

^^^^^ sure would like to see more input on this subject!!!!! Jo, as always, you make us think!!!<p>Thanks,
L.

Jo, What an excellent thread. I include this issue in my conversations with my H at least once a week. In September of 2000, he pledges his unconditional love and in October of 2000, his EA goes PA so how am I supposed to know that things were so BAD??? All of a sudden, it's all my fault that he turned to somebody else!!! I keep telling him, if only I had known that you were that unhappy...he says that he didn't have to tell me. I should have known. To a particular degree, I definitely believe that I should have realized something was up but if he continued to pledge his love (which he now says was a lie), why would I ever have suspected?<p>I definitely agree with the fact that my inability to meet my H's needs was an unconscious decision.

This is something I have been wrestling with, too.<p>Did I know my H was unhappy? NO WAY, he told me how he loved me and I was his life and,in May,00, how we would be so hot when the kids left for college..this ALL one month before EA began!! And I'm supposed to think I make him miserable? He says he was..it just wasn't all my fault,yet.<p>I was content with my life and my H..Was it perfect? NO, he really wasn't a great H,very angry and resentful(recovering alcoholic 7 yrs),moody and easily annoyed.He could also be loving, affectionate, generous and sweet. But I accepted a long time ago,I wasn't responsible for changing him, he said he wanted to change, I thought he was working on it...That's what he said and I beleived him.<p>
For ME, and ME only, not espousing my OWN views as fact, MY needs were not met but I did not have an A. His needs WERE met and he did. If it were all about ENs, I would have had the A!! We can call it a MLC or boredom or selfishness(his worst trait) or whatever...And if he was so freakin' miserable, why didn't he leave me before the OW? This guy NEVER does anything he doesn't want to do!! He did what he wanted, even though he says he didn't want an A. NO, maybe not an A but the sex and excitement and all that goes with it...sure,he did...he just couldn't call it an A because he wanted to be a good guy, to himself,first!

Hi Jo:<p>Why? There are so many "whys?" that go unanswered in this A business...I think mostly because there are no real answers. But I do think that each of us tends to have "blinders" on as to the effect of our behavior on our S....not that we intentionally do things to fail to meet our S needs...but we do little things that I think chip away at the connection we have with our mate....and visa-versa. Therefore, our mates also have their own "blinders" on....and can only feel their own hurt....and that hurt can serve as a justification (even if it is unconscious) to get those needs met outside the marriage. <p>Why does one person cross the line and another doesn't?.....well, there is the big question. I know Harley feels anyone is vunerable to an affair but I do feel that at some level you are aware of what is going on and where it might lead...but once the process of having needs met is started....it's hard to say no. Does it ultimately depend on moral fiber...I don't know...but I tend to think so....the stronger you are and the greater you believe in "keeping the rules" (guardians, probably) the stronger your resistance to wavering will be. So maybe it is just a function of personality.<p>I know that my WS was exposed to a life-style at a period of his life in which he was weak and vunerable....and at some point made a conscious decision to cross the line....and OW came along...she's nothing special..was just in the right place at the right time. There are always people out there looking for people who are at weak points in their lives...people who have the ability to feel that need and take advantage of it. <p>Of course there are truly people who just happen into an affair...fall into the "magic" of a new relationship...I think these are the A's that Harley is describing, that he feels we all are of capable of....and I think these marriages have the best chance of recovery...because in a way I think they did just "happen"...the WS made no overt attempt to get needs met....but once it happens it's just as hard to stop.<p>Your WH and mine are in the first group...some personality flaw in them makes them more vunerable then others and more prone to think that they are justified (ergo the multiple affairs). I think that unless they deal with their own problems...they will never be faithful to anyone. <p>EN's are unmet on both sides I'm sure...and there are certainly cases in which failure to meet ENs is severe enough to justify some action on the part of WS...but an A is never the answer...maybe the answer is separation and then, if there is still no attempt to right the wrongs, then a divorce. An A is always a selfish answer to a complicated, many faceted problem...and reflects that the WS has not examined all facets of the problem before proceeding to a solution. <p>At least with MB principles we can examine all sides of the problem for possible solutions before we move on...divorced or not. If only the WS had tried to do that before causing all this hurt. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Faye

I'll tell you what I do see as a consistant pattern. Association. Whether young or old, we are all vulnerable to being sucked into bad association. It takes 2 to have an A. But association is always a requirement to having an A. <p>Association is a matter of choice and I think may be the key between those that have an A and those that don't. <p>L.

Quote from R:<p>"I realize at first they may have "unconsciously", out of unmet needs, innocently allowed themselves to become close to an OP and felt is was an appropriate friendship, unaware of the A potential. But eventually they did make a "decision" and had an A."<p>From me: in general people address unmet needs. My question is SO WHAT about these unmet ENs? I wish that all of my unmet needs were being met. That is what separates the real men/women from the boys/girls - doing what is right despite things being tough. I get so tired of people talking about their ENs not being met. When it comes down to the bottom line, nobody will meet your emotional needs if you don't have a healthy mental state. Never, never count on another person to be your source of happiness. But if you do meet a soulmate, then that is great. And when you marry, your soulmate searching days are over.
No one involved in an affair comes out a winner. There may be success stories out there, but it ain't over till its over. A positive appearance is the most difficult task for "affairees" to present.

Jo,
That's what I've been bitc*ing about. A vow is a vow - two speak to "love, honor, cherish" - so where is the sh*t that one of the spouses go out to seek friendship/companionship, etc. from another.<p>Where is the honesty ???? that the person says in their heart - I love this person, and I would not do anything to hurt them - I will be true to them.<p>You are correct - BS's do not know they are not meeting the needs - we think that everything is okay - but it is not. And the worst part of the entire thing is - that they do not give us the chance to fix anything - before they go out and do the A/EA/PA.<p>One would think it would be like a job - your supervisor gives you feedback about your performance - it is subjective - they want you to act or do certain things. So why does the spouse not speak up and tell you where you are falling down in their eyes "about any of your performance".<p>Okay - so our hearts, souls, and beings are hurt now. <p>I pray things will okay for all of us soon.
aftershock [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Wow what a good thread Jo. Like everyone else I didn't realize how unhappy my H really was. At times I knew I put him on the backburner to take care of everything else kids, house, job, extra curricular activities w/kids. He never told me how unhappy he really was. He would be consumed with TV when I did try and talk to him. My question is this. Why is it so easy for WS to turn to someone else an pour their hearts out about their problems and their bad spouses when they should have been turning to their spouse in the first place and then maybe the A wouldn't have happened?
I am just starting the recovery process and I think it's harder than the separation. I am taking it slow trying not to have any expectations but you know when I think abut what I went through and now H is home it's really hard to not feel resentment at times for what he put me through.
C

I feel there are some really good thoughts here.<p>I can especially identify with Krystal's reply. It started for us also after our first son was born. It's amazing our second son was ever conceived.<p>Let me throw in another characterization of the decision point: I believe my wife never made a "decision" to have an affair, because she wasn't having one. <p>In her mind, she rationalized her behavior as "not an affair." It's likely she and OM never had sex until after our legal separation, 5 months into the EA, so in a Clintonian way, nothing immoral or unacceptable was happening. What they were doing was "forced" upon them by the reaction of me and OM's W after our discovery of their "innocent", secret trip to Chicago. Once the separation was in place, it symbolized the removal of any inhibitions that remained.<p>So, back to the point, the only decision my wife made - in her mind, I suspect - was to separate from me because of the "abuse" she had suffered for "years."