Just a comment,<p>What goes around comes around. Food for thought.

belld and all,<p>Well, belld, if you are a freak of nature, I guess am too. It is so strange to feel almost embarrassed to say this. My H and I have been married for more years than many of you have been alive, and it has never once crossed my mind to open myself up emotionally or physically to another man, not even once. Our M is far from perfect, but it's still chugging along. My H is in this for the long haul, too. <p>I like what you said about pureness of spirit, belld. I think my H has it. What you see is what you get. No guile or ulterior motives. <p>Would you care to share with us how you know pureness of spirit when you see it? It might help us decide who is worth our emotional investment and who is a poor risk.<p>Thanks,
Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Would you care to share with us how you know pureness of spirit when you see it? It might help us decide who is worth our emotional investment and who is a poor risk.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Another Freak of Nature signing in. Please tell us Bell.<p>Jo

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8220;painforever, from a subjective standpoint, I don't understand why you could possibly have feelings for the OW that you do. But from an objective standpoint, I do - I know these things happen. They just don't happen - and will never happen - to someone like me&#8221;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..<p>Are you asking me how is it possible that I fell in love with OW? She, as a person, her personality, attitude, what she does, say, how she thinks, even to what she looked like is almost identical, 99%, to my vision of the perfect woman. It was inevitable. I never thought it was ever possible to find all the attributes I desired in a woman in this one person. I was selfish, when I found her I wanted to keep her at all cost. <p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;I've really revised what constitutes attraction, in my book. Physical and mental attraction, for me, begin on a very fundamental level: pureness of spirit. If a single or married man even *contemplated* making a move on me, I would be totally repulsed by them because they would be showing me from the very start that they are not pure&#8221;&#8230;&#8230;..<p>She is pure, her love was pure. She didn&#8217;t know I was married when I pursued her, she didn&#8217;t know until after one year. I think the more appropriate question is how could she feel the way she does about me? <p>And Estes & Mylife &#8211; what I did does not make me a good man. I was and still paying the price for all my wrong doings.

Wrong person....Renee and Mylife - what i did does not make me a good man.<p>K9 is right - what goes around comes around. I cannot explain how i am feeling now. I am going to get what i want, to be free, capable of being with whoever i want but i am so far far from happy.

No judgment here painforever, just wondering:<p>Is part of the cause of the pain you are having to live with now the way you deceived a woman who is pure and pure in her love for you? <p>Your experience seems to be an perfect example of the self-centered mindset of a WS. I certainly can understand how you were attracted to her. But did you really lead this woman to believe you were available to her for a whole year? Did the truth just about kill her?<p>No offense intended by these questions. I'm trying to understand. How can a person who proposes to love someone do something like what you did to her?<p>Thanks,
Estes

RE: – what I did does not make me a good man. I was and still paying the price for all my wrong doings. <p>As are you wife and children too. This is what the biblical saying that ‘the sins of the father are vested on the children’ means. <p>Earlier you said…….. First of all, don’t believe everything WS says. For almost a year , I lied to the OW about my marital status. After I told her I was married with 2 kids, I went on to lie that I was separated and was going to get a divorce. While it was true that my marriage was empty and dead (BS was aware of that too) from before I met her, there was never any mention of divorce (though in my mind that’s what I believed would happen).

Your OW did nothing wrong until the day she found out that you had lied to her. Then she became a willing participant in adultery. That is hardly pure and pure of heart. You told her that you were separated and getting a divorce. I am sorry, but I’ve been in the same position she was in. What a person does when they find out that their love interest has perpetrated such a terrible lie on them is that they seek the truth. This should usually be done independently because the MM has proven him/herself to be capable of lying for their own benefit. Did she ever ask to see the divorce papers? Did she ever speak to your soon to be ex-wife? Those are the types of things I did to ensure that I was not being further lied to. The results of my investigation into Tommy when I was seeing him (years ago) was to find out that he as indeed lying to me again. He was back with his wife, I dumped him like a hot potato. You see I love myself too much to be involved in infidelity. Does not sound like she gave a hang one way or the other if you were telling her the truth. I am curious as to how much guilt, shame and remorse she had for continuing an affair with a married man. In everything I’ve ever read of yours, you never mention how she felt about that. And if she had any of these feelings the fact that she continued the affair tells me a lot. From what I’ve read do far, your pure lady is only sorry that she lost you. Not that she was seeing a married man.<p>The excuse that by the time she found out that you were married it was too late because she was in love with you does not hold water for me. Love does not excuse bad behavior… period.<p>What pain forever has told us here is a very good argument for always doing a background check on a person if we are interested in them. While it did not turn up the truth about STL when he was having his affairs, at least I knew that he was not lying about his marital status and the rest of his life.<p>Makes me think of a man I know. He is in his 70’s right now. He has been married 4 or 5 times and has never divorced his first wife. His current ‘wife’ of 20 years and their 20 year old daughter do not even know about his 6 other children by his first and second wives and a former mistress. They are however about to find out as one of his children is about to blow his cover. I know about this situation because I am a acquaintance of his and a friend of one of his daughters who he walked out on 35 years ago. She is the one who feels she needs to reclaim her heritage. The funny thing about lies is that they seldom sleep forever.

Re: recognizing pure of spirit.<p>Well, I would have to say that it's being around a man who is or is not married who does not flirt with me, does not pay any extra attention to me except to give me the respect I deserve as a human being, coworker, patron at a restaurant, whatever ... someone who defers to my H first. <p>Basically, someone who is pure of spirit would never show any romantic interest in me, a married woman, because they absolutely *have* no interest in me, period. Those are the people who are safe to be around. <p>As for finding it as a single person ... I don't know. I sure didn't find it the first time. I saw it. I knew H's history, I knew he'd done it before. I had some inkling of what I was getting involved with. And yes, it did make me feel 'defiled,' so to speak, even by proxy. If that makes any sense ...<p>belld

Belldandy,<p>I share your repulsion for a MP who attempts to make a move. It tells me something very negative about them right up front. They cannot be trusted even with the well being of their spouse and family. This is not someone I want to have too much to do with. <p>Yes, there may come a time when this person gets their head screwed on straight. But until that time I would be very leery of them.<p>An interesting thought just came to mind. I have been involved with several businesses. Each time I've had a business partner who turned out to be either cheating on their spouse or an OP, they ended up screwing me over. They did things like steal equipment that I brought into the business, try to cut me out of business, did work on the side using our joint business assets and pocketing the money. Interesting.... NO?

Estes and Zorweb,<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8220;Is part of the cause of the pain you are having to live with now the way you deceived a woman who is pure and pure in her love for you?&#8221;<p>Yes that does constitute part of my pain.

&#8230;&#8230;.&#8217;Your experience seems to be an perfect example of the self-centered mindset of a WS. I certainly can understand how you were attracted to her. But did you really lead this woman to believe you were available to her for a whole year? Did the truth just about kill her? &#8216;&#8230;&#8230;.<p>Yes that is what I lead her to belief. It was possible because I was working abroad and living on my own. My friends whom she knew was aware of the situation. She even met my sister and some other relatives who came down to visit. At first I felt it was justified since it wasn&#8217;t intended to be serious and then I thought I was going to get a divorce anyway. And I was scared that if she knew she would run away. When I told her I was still legally married, she was devastated, but I also told her we were separated (that&#8217;s why I was living abroad) and we were going to get a divorce. <p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;No offense intended by these questions. I'm trying to understand how can a person who proposes to love someone do something like what you did to her?&#8221;&#8230;.<p>No offense taken. I don&#8217;t know why else except that I was very selfish. Thought that I could get away with it, thought I could have everything. Many times I wanted to tell her but I was scared to loose her. When things got serious, the guilt was unbearable that I had to tell her. <p>&#8230;..&#8221;RE: &#8211; what I did does not make me a good man. I was and still paying the price for all my wrong doings. <p> As are you wife and children too. This is what the biblical saying that &#8216;the sins of the father are vested on the children&#8217; means&#8221;&#8230;.<p>Yes my children are paying the price for it now. My wife in a suspiciously short period (less than a month) after I told her I could not go on trying anymore has suddenly befriended a very close male friend &#8211; one she spends the weekend with and introduced to her family to. While I am happy that she found someone and is happy now, it makes me wonder what her motives were when she wanted me to try, what that 8 mths were for.<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;What a person does when they find out that their love interest has perpetrated such a terrible lie on them is that they seek the truth. This should usually be done independently because the MM has proven him/herself to be capable of lying for their own benefit. Did she ever ask to see the divorce papers? Did she ever speak to your soon to be ex-wife?&#8221;&#8230;..<p>She didn&#8217;t seek divorce papers, I never told her I was divorced. No she didn&#8217;t speak to wife - it was hard to do a background check on me, I come from a different country, she is not familiar with the system there. I don&#8217;t know, maybe she could not conceive why I would lie to her further, or else why would I introduce her to my family, why was my wife and kids never there in the whole 2 years, why did i meet her family and express my desire to be with her, plan a future &#8211; tell my friends about it (all of which I wanted to do after my divorce) etc. She felt that we were both really planning to get divorced, that after 2 years of living apart on mutual consent, it would be easier to get one. <p>Only after D-Day did she knew something was not right. It was the period when I struggled to make the decision to try again with wife. While she was living her life, real and tangible to her, I was living in fantasy land. Hence all our plans and promises became void. When I went back to clear up my stuff to move back home, I really idn&#8217;t want to, I still wanted to see her and she see me too. I think it took her a while to register, then she came to accept what was happening and why I needed to go back. I think most of her guilt she blamed me for, blame herself for trusting me, she was ashamed of the truth, regret that it turned out the way it did but not sorry for what we had. To her it would be over when I left, we were thousands of miles apart. I was still hanging on to her, always calling and like I said she rationalised why I needed to go home, why we wouldn&#8217;t work out etc. I never said that she was pure and without sin. <p>I don&#8217;t know what I became, just relating these events to you, which is all so very clear in my mind, makes my stomach churn. I have end up hurting all those that I love so much.

I have read most of what is posted here and I have to say:
I think that it is probably fair to assume that many BS will never "get" what happens inside of the WS. And vice versa. How can one fully understand, having never walked a mile in the shoes of the other?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by honey:
<strong>KS, Unfortunately you are wrong about marriage.. it is promised, and sacred, until death do you part... HAVe you ever heard marriage vows?
HONEY</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Vows are promises, not guarantees. It would be lovely if people made vows and that locked them in forever. We are all human. So sometimes the marriage vows turns out to be forever. And sometimes not.<p>And even if it turns out to be forever, that doesn't mean that "forever" is the best possible outcome. I've seem some "forevers" that should have come undone a LONG time ago. When families have moved to a place of permenant misery, how is "forever" an advantage?

Scarlett,<p>I have a longer response almost finished to one of your previous posts. But between the holidays and other stuff have not been able to finish it. I leave in a bit for LASIK surgery on my eyes. So it will be at least tomorrow before I get to it again. (STL had his surgery yesterday.. He’s like an excited kid with a new toy… Keeps singing “I can see clearly now, the frames are gone…. )<p>RE: Vows are promises, not guarantees. It would be lovely if people made vows and that locked them in forever. We are all human. So sometimes the marriage vows turns out to be forever. And sometimes not. <p>Marriage vows started as an old form of legal contract. They are not only a promise they are a legal contract. Today we follow it up with a written contract. The problem is that people do not take the marriage contract seriously. If a person were to enter into a legal contract for business purposes and treat that contract the way some people treat the marriage contract law suits and in some cases criminal charges would be entered into and people would understand the legalities. People make life decisions based on the marriage vows and the legal marriage contract. The marriage contract has provisions for what a person can do to end the contract.<p>When a person breaks the marriage contract they are saying that ‘my word is not worth anything”. I will promise whatever suites me at the moment to get what I want and will then do what ever else I want later to get what ever else I want.<p>RE: “When families have moved to a place of permanent misery, how is "forever" an advantage?:<p>This is one of the typical WS and OP mantra’s. Guess what, no one here is even starting to suggest that anyone stay in ‘permanent misery’. It’s insulting that anyone would even suggest that is where the BS’s are coming from. If you cut through the words, anger and hurt, what the BS are saying is that they want to be treated with respect. They want the contract they signed and based their entire lives on to be honored. And if the other spouse does not want to be in that contract anymore they want to be treated with respect in the ending of that contract.<p>There is nothing in any religion, new wave way of thinking, or humanism that says that it is ok to lie and steal from people for one’s own gain. How can anyone support such an argument? How can you say it is ok to do these things to another person?<p>Do you won a home? Here is something to consider, you have a contract with a mortgage company. After a while the prime lending rate goes way up. So they are no longer making much money on your loan (they are no longer ‘in love’ with you). So they come to you and say, we have found someone else to buy your house at a higher interest rate. Move out. You argue that you had a contract and this does not follow the contract. They say that they did not realize what they were doing when they signed the contract. They did not know that later they would meet someone who would pay a higher interest rate. So move out. You then say that you at least want your equity out of the home… they say that there are no provisions in the contract for you to get your equity out under these circumstances.. So move out. How foolish of you to expect that they would keep up their side of their contract… You need to just have good feelings for them, have a ‘contract breaking’ ceremony and move on. You should not be petty and get angry with them. They are only doing what it good for them. It is too bad it is not what is also good for you.. But well that does not matter. <p>Scarlett, why do you think it is ok to lie and mistreat others? Why do you think it is ok to break legally binding contracts that a person has entered into with their eyes wide open? From what you say, it is ok as long as you benefit from the situation. And why is that you seem to think that the person who is screwed over is somehow supposed to accept it with great grace?

painforever,<p>Thank you for your very forthright and honest reply. You eloquently conveyed the pain of everyone involved. It is all so very sad for all of you.<p>I hope that time and effort bring you healing and peace. Forgiveness is yours with repentance. May you also forgive yourself.<p>Best wishes,
Estes

belld,<p>Maybe I have been blessed to know many people who are pure in spirit. I have worked with men for years (at school), and our relationships have always been ones of friendly colleagues. No vibes, just supportive friends. Do you think this type of person makes up his/her mind before hand what is acceptable or unacceptable based on his/her value system, so the decision on how to behave is already made?<p>
Hi Katie,<p>You know, the unsettling thing is that - thanks to the forum - I think I DO "get it" about what goes on in the minds of WS and OP. I can even empathize with them in the pain their choices have caused them. <p>What I cannot do is accept that there is any justification for the choices they have made. My value system is absolutely uncompromising on this point: It is never acceptable to seek pleasure at the cost of another person's pain and anguish. I guess what I will not ever "get" is how someone can believe that hurting someone is acceptable as long as he/she benefits.<p>Take care,
Estes<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Marriage vows started as an old form of legal contract. They are not only a promise they are a legal contract. Today we follow it up with a written contract. The problem is that people do not take the marriage contract seriously. <p>This is exactly right. People DO NOT take the marriage contract seriously. OR they mean it on the day they say it, but that commitment is diluded in time. When I read &#8220;&#8230;vows began as an old form of legal contract.&#8221; I was thinking that that statement should begin &#8220;once upon a time&#8230;&#8221; Like it or not it is true that the times they are a changing. There once was a time that marriage meant forever. And that&#8217;s the way things were. There was also a time when human slavery was ok. And that&#8217;s the way things were. My personal reality says NOTHING is forever. Sad as it may be, unfair as it may be, it&#8217;s true!<p>If a person were to enter into a legal contract for business purposes and treat that contract the way some people treat the marriage contract law suits and in some cases criminal charges would be entered into and people would understand the legalities. People make life decisions based on the marriage vows and the legal marriage contract. The marriage contract has provisions for what a person can do to end the contract.
When a person breaks the marriage contract they are saying that &#8216;my word is not worth anything&#8221;. I will promise whatever suites me at the moment to get what I want and will then do what ever else I want later to get what ever else I want. <p>If the simply taking of a vow were enough of a legal contract then they NEVER would have added an actual (paper) contract. Lets not pretend that it&#8217;s just the last 20 years that people have begun to break this contact. LONG before you or I the people of this country (world) recognized that taking a vow was not enough. Sure, it should have been, but it just wasn&#8217;t. And so it was decided that that piece of paper was necessary.<p>Think about it. When are you legally married? If I went today and took vow with a person, does that make me married? Heck no. There is no marriage, until that piece of paper is signed. It&#8217;s the paper that is binding. NOT the words.<p>Again, IT&#8217;S NOT FAIR!!!!! I will never argue that. But for people to stand here and say &#8220;you made me a promise&#8230;&#8221; Kinda crazy. Oh that we all kept our promises. Oh that we never changed our minds&#8230;<p>RE: &#8220;When families have moved to a place of permanent misery, how is "forever" an advantage?:
This is one of the typical WS and OP mantra&#8217;s. Guess what, no one here is even starting to suggest that anyone stay in &#8216;permanent misery&#8217;. It&#8217;s insulting that anyone would even suggest that is where the BS&#8217;s are coming from. If you cut through the words, anger and hurt, what the BS are saying is that they want to be treated with respect. They want the contract they signed and based their entire lives on to be honored. And if the other spouse does not want to be in that contract anymore they want to be treated with respect in the ending of that contract. <p>I agree that there are BS&#8217;s here saying &#8220;I want respect, I want the contract honored&#8221; There is not question of that. What I am ALSO seeing is a certain amount of &#8220;just don&#8217;t leave me&#8230;no matter what, just don&#8217;t leave me.&#8221; And THAT is the part that I think is sad. I agree that if the contract is to be ended it should be done in an honorable way. One of the things that I came to understand about my xMM is that he&#8217;s NOT the marrying type. I see how he handles conflict. I see how he handles &#8220;contract negotiations&#8221; . It would NEVER work for me. And when he started talking about &#8220;divorce, you and me forever&#8221; I told him no. Told him that that&#8217;s not what I was in this for. (dawning flame retardant suit)<p>
There is nothing in any religion, new wave way of thinking, or humanism that says that it is ok to lie and steal from people for one&#8217;s own gain. How can anyone support such an argument? How can you say it is ok to do these things to another person? <p>I never did. Have you seen me here, on GB or anyplace else for that matter high fiving OW saying &#8220;you go girl, go after that MM.&#8221; Never happens. The more information I gain, the better decisions I am able to make. I no longer think that it&#8217;s an acceptable thing to date married men. In fact this was one of my biggest issues with xMM.<p>I will be honest with you guys and say that I have learned more about marriage here than any place. I joking say that I was raised by wolves. I am a grown woman, but there are certain things that I just didn&#8217;t know. Maybe I should have known, but I didn&#8217;t. I NEVER understood why people saw marriage as valuable until I started reading on here. It just seemed like a lop-sided, fools-deal, contract to me. I could broker a good business deal at 12. Different people have different skills (obviously).<p>MM and I used to have the same conversation all of the time. I&#8217;d say &#8220;what about your W?&#8221; And he&#8217;d say &#8220;what about her?&#8221; In time I was thinking, &#8220;why am I so concerned about this woman that I don&#8217;t even know. He&#8217;s not. He knows her, not me. He made promises to her, not me. I&#8217;m tossing and turning thinking about her and he&#8217;s sleeping like a baby. Clearly I&#8217;m wasting my time. I&#8217;m not married!&#8221;<p>Scarlett, why do you think it is ok to lie and mistreat others?
I don&#8217;t. Here's a queston for you though? How long do you continue to be lied to without doing something about it? Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice...<p>There are people here who say "s/he lied again" and seem geniunely shocked. Why? If you're married to a liar it seems to me that the options would be #1-accept what you partner is and focus on how you can cope with that or #2-take action to change your situation. But when OP get to me in the multipuls, why is anyone suprised. <p>Anyone suprised that Bill Clinton had another mistress please stand on your head. <p>Why do you think it is ok to break legally binding contracts that a person has entered into with their eyes wide open?
I think it&#8217;s ok to break the contract as long as you do it the right way. I NEVER seen a good contract written without an out-clause.<p>From what you say, it is ok as long as you benefit from the situation. And why is that you seem to think that the person who is screwed over is somehow supposed to accept it with great grace?
More than accepting it with &#8220;great grace&#8221; I think it&#8217;s important to examine any situation and say &#8220;what am I going to do now.&#8221; You will never hear me say on here, &#8220;oh just get over it.&#8221; I think that there is a time for grieving. And no other person can tell you when you&#8217;re grieving is done. IT&#8217;s done when it&#8217;s done. AT THE SAME TIME, I wonder what it is to be a person who cannot get past the grieving place. That victim place.<p>I have been screwed over many times in my life. MANY MANY times. There have been people in my life who have been charge (by God) to care for and protect me. That &#8220;contract&#8221; was broken. And there was a long time that I was angry about that. The difference for me was that I was angry and proactive. The circumstances of my life are nothing short of amazing (according to some). Surly I could remain forever a victim. I could be locked in a psyche ward. I could be a criminal. I could spend the rest of my life crying and finger pointing wailing &#8220;&#8230;they done me wrong.&#8221; And instead I have risen to face the challenges before me.<p>Maybe because I expect a lot of myself I expect a lot of others. Maybe because I have spent so much time coping, I expect coping from others. And maybe that isn&#8217;t fair.

Katie S,
You are absolutly right about the "times they are a changing" but not in the morally right or wrong sense that many here would like to shout about.
One of my hobbies is to study evolutionary psychology - many good books on the subject are available. - It is the study of us (humans) as a people/culture/society and how we have since the beginning of time evolved to survive as a species. Marriage was origionally needed to ensure the survival of children. Nothing more was it established for - not out of love and romance as you all believe - but for nothing more than to form a unit to protect and provide for future generations. This of course was needed during our previous years as the human race - but in the past 100 even more like 50 or so - it is not so much the need anymore- the need to ensure survival of the children - this is why since day 1 there has Always been adultry - this is why this is all nothing new -
I am not trying to make a point here about what is going on in anyones lives - but if you guys are going to argue -MARRIAGE AS A CONTRACT - get the facts straight.

S….. Here's a queston for you though? How long do you continue to be lied to without doing something about it? to change your situation. <p>There is absolutely no reason to put up with being continually lied to. None…. <p>In my previous marriage I tried to do it. When I found out about his (V for short) affairs, I confronted him, he lied about them.. Has to this day. So I moved out with our son and filed for divorce. The judge made me move our son back into the family home. V as not about to let me have custody of our son. So I moved back in. It took me four years to get him to let me leave with our son. V continued his affairs and his physical/mental abuse of me and my son the entire remaining four years of our marriage. (Oh, I called the police, field charges etc. The court system seems to protect doctors regardless of what they do.) But I was there because of my son. The day finally came when V told me that if the only way I would leave is by taking our son, then I could do it. I got out, with son, as fast as I could. He was not only cheating but was physically abusive as well.<p>Either the WS stops the affair and the lying immediately or it’s Plan B. That is the approach I took in my current marriage.<p>My take on this is a highbred between the Dodson and the Harley approach. Actually, I think that Harley is closer to Dodson them most people seem to realize. Plan A is meant to be for a very short time while the BS negotiates with the WS to end the affair and work on the marriage. It is not meant to be a life style that goes on for months and years. It is a short time period that gives all parties involved some time to step back and evaluate where everything stands and what they want to do from this point on.<p>S……. But when OP get to me in the multipuls, why is anyone Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice... <p>I do not understand what you said here.. <p>S……. There are people here who say "s/he lied again" and seem geniunely shocked. Why? If you're married to a liar it seems to me that the options would be #1-accept what you partner is and focus on how you can cope with that or #2-take action suprised.
Anyone suprised that Bill Clinton had another mistress please stand on your head.

Remember that there are many kinds of cheaters. There are the serial ones like Bill Clinton. It’s his life style. He will probably not quit it until he’s too old to care about proving his sexual prowess anymore. He is the type to dump. I feel that my ex-H is of this type.<p>Then there are the people who seem to fall into an affair (or as in my current H’s (STL’s) case, a group of affairs). But it is not their life style. I will not get into why I think it is not his life style here as it’s a long story. We are all human and can make a wrong choice at some time in our lives. I love STL, feel that his affairs were a one-time reaction to something in his life that has nothing to do with me. I honestly do not believe that his affairs were something he did TO ME. I also believe that he did not cheat on his previous wife in their 14 year marriage… this is important as there is not previous behavior pattern. The affairs were his sorted way of working out issues with his past marriage. After d-day I had a choice. Either I throw him out and loose the man I love. Or I give him one chance to make it right. I believe that he will not repeat the behavior. I believe this because of his actions since d-day. You see I knew that if I would be hurting either way.. .if I ended our marriage or if I stayed with him and gave him one chance. But I also knew that if I ended our marriage I’d miss him for a very very long time. But if I gave him that one chance, we there was a good chance that we could have a wonderful life together. One important point here is that STL has never wanted to end our relationship. He was not ‘in love’ with the OW’en. It was some sick game he, and they, were playing. <p>It is not true that once a cheater always a cheater. Generalization never work.. Come up with a generalization and everyone will have 100 stories to prove it wrong. Not all people who cheat will do so over and over again. The cheating is often a response to something that is going on in their lives. If that thing can be identified and addressed, the behavior will stop.<p>I am fully aware that one day I could find out that STL is still lying up a storm to me. At this point the ball is in his court to prove to me every day that he is not. He knows that if he ever has an affair again our marriage is over. One chance is all there is. And I am fully aware that if it ever comes to this, I am not a victim. I made my choice to give him another chance. If it turns out to be a foolish choice, then I will go on without him. I know where I stand in all of this. I’ve come to terms with it all.<p>Scarlett, did you know that Dr. Harley says that if his wife cheats on him he will not plan A or Plan B? He will divorce her. The reason he gives for this is that since they follow the MB concepts there is nothing more he could do to save his marriage.<p>Z,,,,, Why do you think it is ok to break legally binding contracts that a person has entered into with their eyes wide open? … S…..I think it’s ok to break the contract as long as you do it the right way. I NEVER seen a good contract written without an out-clause. <p>Ok, I did not state this right. I meant why do you think that breaking a contract in a manner other then the way set forth in the ‘out-clause’ is ok. Since coming here you have made comments that lead me to believe that you think having affairs is ok. You do not do not, or at least did not, see how the marriage contract was of any real value.<p>S…. More than accepting it with “great grace” I think it’s important to examine any situation and say “what am I going to do now.” You will never hear me say on here, “oh just get over it.” I think that there is a time for grieving. And no other person can tell you when you’re grieving is done. IT’s done when it’s done. AT THE SAME TIME, I wonder what it is to be a person who cannot get past the grieving place. That victim place.
I have been screwed over many times in my life. MANY MANY times. There have been people in my life who have been charge (by God) to care for and protect me. That “contract” was broken. And there was a long time that I was angry about that. The difference for me was that I was angry and proactive. The circumstances of my life are nothing short of amazing (according to some). Surly I could remain forever a victim. I could be locked in a psyche ward. I could be a criminal. I could spend the rest of my life crying and finger pointing wailing “…they done me wrong.” And instead I have risen to face the challenges before me. <p>I could not agree with you more on the above. I could tell stories and give several justifications based on my life as to why I should be viewed as a victim. I think anyone can come up with them in short order. I, like you, choose not to be a victim. It’s a total waste of my time. Life is too short and there is just too much of it to enjoy to stay in that place.<p>S….. Maybe because I expect a lot of myself I expect a lot of others. Maybe because I have spent so much time coping, I expect coping from others. And maybe that isn’t fair.<p>I think that there is something you keep missing here on MB. There are many of us here, like me who have moved on. We are here mostly to help the people in the middle of their struggles with infidelity. I’m still here because I am still returning the favor to all those people who helped STL and I through the first few months after d-day. STL still posts here from time to time too. The others here are in the middle of their own struggle to come to terms with things. You say that you spent a lot of time coping so you expect it from others. But be fair Scarlett, you have to give people a few days and perhaps weeks to come to terms with the changes in their lives. It is unreasonable to show up on this forum and say.. Ok everyone cope like I do. I will bet that some of the things in your life took more then a day to learn to cope with. Let each person have their own time. And yes some people need a harder kick in the rump to start coping. That’s what we are here for.

You know what?...you are right. The times are changing. As we throw away our marriages we are setting a whole generation of kids up for personal and relationship problems. <p>I teach special service kids...kids that are having problems in school. Sure we test them, and classify them...but guess what? The majority of the time the kid's main problem is that his family life sucks. Marriage partners come and go, they don't know who to trust in their life. No one is there to support them or the support is very erradic. I think it is a shame. Shame on us for not honoring our marriage vows and commitments. Studies show that kids do better with their natural parents together...unless there is physical or mental abuse. <p>I think we are going to regret what our society is accepting in terms of marriage and divorce. Divorce has a devastating effect on kids and it lasts a lifetime.<p>KS: I may sound like a bitter BS...and I am right now. I feel sorry for you and your outlook on life. I feel sorry for your child. In most of the marriages I know, sure, you face difficulties. Life is not always full of passion. But a commitment to someone to form a family unit provides the stability kids need to thrive. Are kids resilient...I guess...but I think it is just settling for second best.

renee k <p>Very good post. You are right, people are no more or less moral today then they ever have been. And there is nothing new about adultery. What is new is the way we look at it.<p>R…… but if you guys are going to argue -MARRIAGE AS A CONTRACT - get the facts straight<p>This is exactly what I’ve been arguing for some time now. Even the commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery” did not mean what people now think it means. In the good old days a married woman could not commit adultery and no man was supposed to have sexual relations with a married woman who was not his wife. But is as ok for a married man to sleep with a single woman. That was not considered adultery. The laws in many parts of the world still follow this rule. <p>The idea that marriage is about love is rather new and a western thing. Why do you think they allow polygamy in many places? Because marriage is not about love, it’s about a man giving women stability so that she can have children and raise them. In many parts of the world this is still needed to ensure survival of the children. And that is why spouses, especially the wife, put up with anything that was dished out to them. Their and their children’s survival depended on the survival of the family unit. <p>Times are changing, in the western world, and somewhere along the line the concepts of marriage are changing. But the laws and contracts have not changed to match them. I would argue that marriage, or some sort of contract is still needed to protect the survival of children and family units. But with people living as long as we do today, marriage for life seems almost impossible. Many marriages now end in divorce.. We all know that. What I would love to see is people treat each other better during the course of marriage and in the ending of those marriages that do not last a life time. <p>There is still a need for a family unit even in today’s world. Marriage is far bigger then ‘in-love’. It will always be true that people who bind together will be stronger then those who are loners. Family fortunes and bonds will ensure that children ‘survive better’ then those who are left with one parent and no extended family to raise and care for them. But The legal nature of marriage is changing over time to allow for more flexibility and to address the fact that no one has to put up with being mistreated in today’s world. And in today’s world, adultery is mistreatment of one’s spouse. Why? Because we make life decisions based on a promise that our spouse will be faithful to us as long as they are married to us.

Interesting discussion. I'd just like to thank Painforever and Katie Scarlett, and well, really everybody...such an emotionally difficult issue, handled with respect and compassion and courage. Educational, inspiring. Nicely done!<p>And I sincerely wish the Happiest New Year to all!