All,<p>I had hoped to be able to collect my thoughts and make an intelligent post of this, but I really don't have the time for it.<p>As you know, W moved home two weeks to "SEE" if she wanted to work on the marriage. There was no comittment to anything beyond that, and I understood and agreed. I was (and still am) hung up on the amount of time that she would be willing to put into it, but I'm in a position to demand NOTHING!<p>Well, these last two weeks haven't gone very well at all, not that I expected anything else (quite the contrary). We can seem to talk about nothing but the state of our marriage and all the "crap."
Don't even tell me to not talk about it because (and I want to make this perfectly clear) I AM NOT INITIATING AND TRYING NOT TO ESCALATE THESE CONVERSATIONS.<p>The last few days have been PARTICULARLY difficult, and we've had several fights. The conversation ALWAYS comes back to the fact that she either can't or won't choose to "forgive" me for all that I've done. We've been fighting an awful lot about the definition of that word. <p>I know for a fact that she's a VERY forgiving person, while I haven't been in the past. Yet now, our roles have been reversed. Her IC told her that she has weak boundries, and now she's determined to make her stand on this forgivness thing. She says that she thinks eventually, she will forgive me, but that she will never "get over" it all to the point that she can love me. But I think that TIME would help that (something I have in very short supply).<p>What does she have to forgive me for? Well, just in case I haven't posted it all before, I will do so now so you can hopefully see things from her side a little bit:<p>I have always been a "know-it-all" and have often "talked down" to her.
I've been unable to let an argument just die, I've ALWAYS had to force my view on her as if she didn't understand it.
I've been an unforgiving, unChristian man.
I had an affair four years ago.
I hid that affair from her for the last four years.
I was lazy- to the point of doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with/for/to her for the last year.
I was depressed and refused to get medical help.
I neglected her and didn't show my appreciation for her.
I took her for granted.
I have had a temper and would throw things around when mad.
I acted like a maniac after I found out.
I stalked her.
I told her parents and cousin about her affair to hurt her.
I made her sign a contract of no contact on DD.
I've been disrespectful.
I often drank and drove in the past.
I haven't been a husband of the quality that she deserves.<p>I told her two days ago that of all of those things, there are only two that I did KNOWING that they'd hurt her so badly. One was having the affair, and the other was drinking and driving. (we were excluding my behavior after DD- otherwise telling her parents would be included).<p>She's been increasingly unhappy for the last four years. The problem (and my point) is that I DIDN'T KNOW about it until three months ago, and only really tried to start doing something about it around 2 months ago. <p>She just sees it as too big a list for her to EVER love me again. She says that it's MY face that has hurt her so badly. But isn't it also my face that made her SO HAPPY before that?<p>I told her that the way that I've been able to forgive a lot of things in the last three months (of her, of my mother, of others) was to consider things one at a time..... can I forgive my mother for being unhappy? yes. Can I forgive my mother for getting her needs met elsewhere? yes. etc...
Aside from handing some of it over to God (which I've done), I found this to be helpful FOR ME.<p>I'm just having a hard time letting go. I'm having a hard time believing that this is NOT about OM (as has been professed). If it's not about OM, then why was I not told of her unhappiness until there WAS an OM?<p>I'm having a hard time understanding why she can't and doesn't want to forgive me (aside from it all being so fresh). I can't understand why she won't allow me to make it right for her, why she won't give me the chance to prove to her that I AM CHANGING. I can't understand how she can simply discount our 12 years together (well, the first 8 anyway).<p>I have asked her for time and a chance, but I understand that she's not obligated to give them to me. But if she ever loved me, WHY WOULDN'T SHE?<p>Last night, after a somewhat better discussion, SHE gave ME a hug on her way to bed. That's only the second time that's happened in three months. I didn't ask for it, I didn't even HINT of it (like last time- on New Year's Eve). Then she cried on my shoulder and told me she doesn't know WHAT to do. Then not a half hour ago, she called and basically told me that she's going to be moving back out shortly (AFTER ONLY TWO WEEKS). <p>I JUST DON'T GET IT, PLEASE HELP ME!<p>Jill, I'm sorry for the way that I talked to you on the phone a little while ago. I AM trying to understand, I AM trying to do what's best for both of us, I AM trying to be trusting and forgiving. But it's all just so foreign to me, and it's hard...but NOT insurmountable.<p>Thank you all,
Kev<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kevco,<p>Has your W ever read this? <p>SKM's Chronicles <p>See if it helps. It is the SKM Chronicles. SKM was a WS who posted here last year. She gives not only insight but helps us see her thought and recovery process. It is long but helpful. <p>Please read it and share as you can with your W. <p>Hope it helps. <p>Take Care,
L.

Thought this might help as well http://members.aol.com/avpsyrich/forgive.htm.<p>Things are never as bad as they seem to be. Usually when we feel hopeless, its because we are so focused on the immediate problem that we fail to see all the other things going on around us. Take a step back and look at the big picture.

Kev, I'm so sorry. I really believe it's all a part of the fog. My H insisted that he did not think he could ever forgive me for the things I'd done. Truly, I don't think he can forgive himself. And Kev, you don't need help with forgiveness, your W does. You may have to let her go again to figure things out on her own. You know my H and I are splitting next Saturday, right? Well it's really weird, but the last week, he's been calling me at work (no particular reason, just to see how I'm doing). Today he actually told me he was feeling a little sad. For a second, I asked myself "is the fog finally clearing?" Then I dismissed it. My H doesn't have a CLUE what he's giving up by divorcing me. Not at this point; however, I think he's beginning to realize that I can't be there for him anymore. He said to me "I'm calling you because you never call me anymore." DUHHHH!!! He kept telling me to let go and "quit beating a dead horse." Then when I stop, he's upset??? Kev, you may just have to let her go again. My H came home without any sort of "plan." It didn't work out. This is not about you. You've shown her major changes. But, like my profile says, I've learned I can't control another's actions, feelings, thoughts, any of it. You also cannot control whether or no Jill will be able to forgive you....try to remember that at least for now, it seems to be the WS's way of deflecting responsibility of the A off themselves...<p>Prayers as always going out to you my friend!<p>MOM

Kev ~ you are talking about two totally different subjects: Her forgiveness of you, and Your forgiveness of her.<p>I got the feeling from what you wrote that you guys are spending alot of time discussing whether or not she can forgive you. <p>May I suggest that she's keeping the focus on your faults so that she doesn't have to take responsibility for her own?<p>She's still actively in an A...right? She just took a time out to test the waters with you for 2 weeks...I hope I am rememering this correctly...<p>She isn't going to forgive you for anything as long as her hurt and resentment are providing a good excuse for her affair. She has too much benefit involved in not forgiving you right now.<p>Anyway...as for your forgiveness of her, can I suggest that its too soon for you to be doing this?<p>You can refrain from judging, choose to show respect...you can do alot of things, but FORGIVENESS is premature...IMHO. I want to share with you what my Al-Anon sponsor wrote to me a year ago, while I was "trying" to see if my H and I could reconcile. It was a false recovery as I discovered later - my H wasn't done with his OW and he was also dating other women. I asked my sponsor about what forgiveness was, and how to forgive my H for his affair.<p>Anyway, I read this email from her quite often, and I hope you find something that will apply in your situation: <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Apologies are apologies, amends are amends and forgiveness is forgiveness. For me, they are not the same thing, nor are they interchangeable.<p>An apology is the awareness that we have hurt someone. An amend is changing the behavior that caused the hurt. Forgiveness is given only when asked for and only with three things present; ( the three R's) - Remorse, Responsibility (for the behavior) and Reparation.<p>I remember my sponsor telling me that forgiveness was not mine to give unless it was asked for. Otherwise I am judging another's behavior and their feelings about the behavior which leaves me vulnerable and open to more hurt in the end. (Especially when I decide they feel remorse when they don't.)<p>That has served me well in my recovery when my need for everyone to live happily ever after gets in the way of the reality of the situation. I know for me, when I was "forcing forgiveness" it was almost always because as long as I could worry, forgive and care take "them" I never had to be alone, I never had to grow myself and I never had to face my own worst hidden fears.<p>I think forgiveness on your part is a bit premature at this point. Mainly because he hasn't asked for it (even your counselor told you he wasn't ready yet) and also because you aren't really ready to give it. You are right - once we forgive, we let go of the resentments and anger and that which we are offering forgiveness over is no longer an issue.<p>I know this is a tall order but how about keeping it simple, taking it one day at a time and enjoy the changes you are seeing in him and his relationship with you instead of telling him and yourself (by your attitude and your constantly churning mind) that the steps he IS taking aren't
enough? Be happy with what you have (reality) instead of ALWAYS wanting MORE (expectations)!! Give up forcing YOUR solutions by YOUR measure. Work on being FAIR - don't expect him to do more than you yourself have done or are willing to do. And, tell me what you are doing to change and improve YOU and your relationship with him.
Write me an email that is as long as the one you sent me, but TALK ABOUT BRAMBLEROSE - how BR is working on BR.<hr></blockquote><p>I hope this helps.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</p>

Kev,<p>First, beyond all this pain and confusion, I hope you're holding up well individually.<p>Second, my WW also has brought up the forgiveness thing too. She finds it hard to forgive both me and herself, frankly. She was never accustomed to the concept of forgiveness as a child, so now she's struggling with it. And yes, her revisionist mind paints every event of our past in a negative light, much as you described.<p>HOWEVER, my belief is this... it's still a lot of fog talk coming from her, and quite possibly your wife too. Given the whole time-frame thing, seems like withdrawal talking. From what I've seen from my WW, there have been a couple of noticible moments where the fog seems to thin (like you describe with the hug), then the fog rolls back in, in force. The fact that she DOES occasionally "come out of it" makes me hopeful - I think we both know that it's technically possible for it to "go away" somehow, someday - she even describes it herself as an addiction - amazing!<p>Well, you know the drill... Plan A/B. Might want to look at the whole "Last Resort" technique too as per Cali / Conqueror. I read through "Divorce Remedy" by Weiner-Davis last night at the bookstore - lots of good things to add to the tool-box. My personal belief on this stuff is that it probably works best when there's a decent foundation there, such as a very uncertain spouse (like mine), or a decent Plan A (been done long enough to get them really confused). Not sure how it might play out for you.<p>It's all about time, ain't it? Been 3 months for you? How you holding up? How do you feel about her? Still find her attractive? Losing LB$? Got questions like that from SH last time I talked to him. He was obviously probing, trying to determine where I was. I'm getting there... my EN's matter, too, although I'm trying to do things "by the book" (i.e. SAA's 6 month Plan A). Right now I'm in Plan A 1/2 - detaching a bit a la Weiner-Davis - MC told me this AM in an e-mail that she thought it might be doing something - not sure if I believe her or not - no one can know except WW. I've basically done 180's all over the place, kind of a last-ditch attempt to bring some reality to the situation and take back my life, prior to Plan B.

Well, we hit it just as soon as I walked through the door. I flew WAY off the handle and we ended up screaming at each other for about 15 minutes. Then we calmed down a little, and talked like civilized humans.<p>She can't understand why I can't get that she's DONE.<p>I can't understand how she can be DONE when I'm changing.<p>I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND how she'd be done with the Kevin that caused her so much pain and suffering and unhappiness. And if I'd have knowingly done any of that, I would GLADLY pack her things and help her move out to a new life. I REALLY WOULD!<p>Problem is, I DIDN'T knowingly hurt her (except for the three things mentioned above), and now that I KNOW, I can be better. I WILL be better, not for her, but for ME.<p>So anyway, she's gone to stay at her girlfriend's house and they're going to talk about how miserable she is here, and if she should come back tomorrow and move back out again. Any bets?<p>I'm angry at her for taking the easy way out. I'm afraid that when she moves out, she'll just bury all the feelings towards me and think she's getting on with her life. BUT I believe that it'll come back to haunt her, and in the mean time, I might just move on. I cannot stay in limbo forever.<p>I am going to be ok, eventually. But I might have to do it with a huge hole in my heart that losing the best thing that ever happened to me will have caused. I feel really good about myself, and I just can't believe that it's over.<p>She (and her girlfriend, unfortunately) believe that once a girl has decided "it's enough," that THAT'S IT. NO MATTER HOW MUCH I CHANGE, she's already decided to quit.<p>Ladies, is this so? CAN IT BE TRULY OVER? I could totally understand if I wasn't willing/able to change. At some point without having the partner work with you, you have to call it quits. And she says that she's at that point...but don't you think the partner deserves to be put on notice that they're about out of the picture BEFORE they're actually out?<p>I have asked her to JUST DO IT. I told her that I may not deserve it, and I have no right to ask it, but I AM asking it. Just give me 6 months, or 3, or WHATEVER, ANYTHING besides 2 weeks.<p>I would particularly like some input from you ladies out there.<p>Thanks,
kev

Kev and Jill,
I haven't been here in a while due to computer trouble. I feel like it has been forever though! You two are in my prayers every day, and my heart is aching. I don't pretend to have the answers, I can only hope that in my experiences you can find something to take with you.<p>Jill,
I know what it feels like to be DONE. I can feel your pain, emptiness, sorrow, hurt, betrayal, and maybe even a bit of disgust thrown in there. I can also feel the confusion and the hesitancy you feel. The doubt that it will EVER be good again. Please notice that I didn't say the same as it was before. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
But that is good! He was hurting you before! He didn't think of you and took you for granted! HE HAD AN AFFAIR!! YOU don't want what was back there. You want to be loved and appreciated, treated with respect and kindness. You want to feel special, important, strong and happy. You want to forgive and you don't know how. I KNOW, I have BEEN THERE!!
Start by at least realizing that you can do this. So many people here have done it before us. Come here, ask us for help, we can't always tell you the magic words, but we can tell you that this is how WE did it.
Just a quick recap, Bill and I had been married 5+ years and I started an affair. That ended and I went into another one. That one lasted around three years. I was in denial for a while that it was an affair, for it was "just" an EA. But the pull from that was so STRONG; I was getting ALL my EN's met by OM. I was so ANGRY that I had tried to talk to Bill about our problems for years, he just wouldn't listen. I cried, I yelled, I begged and pleaded, we went to MC and I tried. But not hard enough and I was too weak to give it any more. It felt way to hard to even try to like Bill after a while. I kept telling myself, it just wasn't working, so I fled for D (I just looked up and saw my typo, I meant, "filed", interesting Freudian slip?!?) But deep inside I knew that I was guilty. Not of the A, for that stands alone. I was guilty of justifying my actions to make me feel good. So many years had gone by that I was so hurt by Bill, I had a HUGE wall built up around my heart. "Well fine then, you won't listen to my words, then watch this!" This wasn't a conscious thought then, but I recognize it now.
To make my point (I guess I'm getting a bit wordy here), I simply took a LONG HARD look at myself and stopped holding Bill's actions over his head. He, like Kevin, had no idea that I was in pain for so long. That is because they are from Mars and we Venetians speak in a different language. J Once I accepted responsibility for my unhappiness, I knew that only I could fix it.<p>I know this was long, and I am sorry, I wish I didn't have to say so much to get my point across sometimes. If you two would like someone to talk to, e-mail me. I will send you my phone number. Jill, Please don't convince yourself that you are done before you really are. Your words and actions show US that you still love Kevin, let yourself see it as well….
God Bless,

Kev, (C A L I in disguise here),<p>My H cannot forgive me either... though lexxxy has pointed out that he is just agreeing TO MY words... has she actually said those words to you? or just agreed w/ what you have said?<p>You say she is initiating talks and they turn into screaming matches... well a match takes two people... I guarantee that if you don't yell or scream neither will she... been doing that w/ my H... he pretty much loses steam after just a few minutes.<p>Now when she initiates talks have you tried just listening and NOT responding? Try the tried and true technique of 'parroting' her words back to her... "So what I here you saying is... or "What I understand you to mean is..." that way she can 'hear' her own words and then can clarify for you what she means.<p>Finally... you do not have to keep saying you've changed... the actions you do will PROVE it to her... and as someone on these boards told me... WSs may 'pick' fights to see if you will resort to old behaviors... They feel uncomfortable w/ the new you because it means they have to respond differently and may try to draw the old you out...<p>Good Luck... and remember, you may lose a battle or two... but the War is in God's hands...<p>C A L I

I agree.<p>With your last message, I felt that your wife was reading from the same script my husband has.<p>He wants to leave the marriage based upon past faults - on the old me - not the present, current, new and improved after Plan A me. If he acknowledged that I made changes then he wouldn't have an excuse to leave. According to Steve Harley it's like a plug and a socket. If she makes the connection and actually plugs into the socket then she'd realize that you have made changes and would have to find another reason to leave.<p>It sounds like WW is stil in fog - or withdrawal. But no matter which one it is, you have to show her your changes by actions and not words. You cannot convince her of anything! Stop trying. It's not getting through.<p>I know it's frustrating. <p>Also, even though WW says she will never forgive you - time does heal - many WS say this, but it takes months for the actions that you did to not hurt as much.<p>Right now it sounds like she isn't ready. You have to not talk about the relationship but live the relationship the way you want it to be, to show her how it can be.<p>She also needs a plan for recovery - per Steve H and Jennifer. WW is not focusing on the plan - she's focusing on everything else but the plan, so that she doesn't have to face the music.<p>For now, I'd stop the relationship talk - iot's not sinking in, and I'd keep Plan Aing.<p>I wish I knew why the WS acts like this. If I did then I could save our marriage, but my WH wants to bury his face in the sand and pretend that ther ewill be no consequences of his actions as long as he doesn't see them.<p>I know it's not the answer you're hoping for, but you have to give her her space. I hope this works out. K

Just a quick update here folks. She came over this morning and has just left with all her stuff. Right now, I don't know what the future brings holds for us. I'm very angry at her right now.<p>What I DO know is that I've seen the man that I've been for the last several years, and I haven't liked him. I've made some changes (actually back to the way I USED to be), and I'm going to be working on a couple of fundamental changes which will be the most difficult task. I've asked God to forgive me for my sins, in and out of the marriage. I've asked ME to forgive my sins, and I've asked Jill to forgive my sins.<p>I believe that because I'm truly sorry for the wrongs that I've comitted, God has forgiven me. I'm working on forgiving myself, and I know that I will eventually. I have no control over whether or not Jill forgives me and I'm ok with that. I pray, for her sake, that she can, that she won't carry this resentment with her for the rest of her life. Because if she does, if she doesn't RESOLVE her feelings for me (good AND bad), then she'll never truly be happy in life, and that makes me sad.<p>I'm going to just try to be the best ME that I can. I'm going to try to pick up some of the pieces of my heart and go on with life. I guess the next move will be Jill's. I hope that a little time and space will help to soften her view of me a little. I AM a good man, and I WILL be a good husband (better than I ever was). I WILL find happiness where ever I'm at. I know now that I CAN do that.<p>Mrs. Wld, thanks for your post. Jill read it and printed it (and others I believe). I only hope she'll ask me or you for your email address. In the mean time, if you have anything that you would like for me to give her, you can send it to my Yahoo account and I'll forward it on.<p>Thank you all, for without you, there would be NO WAY that I'd be strong enough to make it through today, let alone tomorrow or any day to follow.<p>Kev<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kev,
I don't know if this will help you at all, but I wanted to say that your situation is not that unusual. It's so sad, and I was hoping so much that things would work out for you. When my H came home in Sept., it wasn't a trial, he WANTED to. He made all kinds of promises, showed remorse, said all the right things: no contact, counseling, reading, everything. We had a 3-day "honeymoon" period (just no SF to go with it!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), THEN he was right back to having doubts and wanting to separate. We had a few difficult discussions... a couple of screaming matches... all inititated by him, and I tried to avoid them or keep them calm. Same script: he was done, didn't have "those feelings", it was too late... Anyway, he gave me D papers and moved out in 3 weeks.<p>It's not over for you hun. I know you are upset and feel like it's over. But it's not. Give yourslef some time to calm down a bit, do some things for yourself, and think about continuing Plan A or moving to Plan B. I'm sure everyone here will help you with that. but it's NOT OVER.<p>I'm so sorry things didn't work out, but please don't feel like a failure, k? She wasn't ready. You did everything you could, but it takes 2 willng parties to put things back on track.<p>Hang in there!! Take care!!<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Orchid...<p>Thank you so much for posting that link to the SKM chronicles. It could be me that wrote that; my feelings and experiences seem so similar. I guess I'm still stuck in the pity-party remorse stage...and it's nice to see that there's hope for emerging from it.

Faith,<p>Don't worry about me, I'M fine. I didn't really expect that she'd stay permanently, I just didn't expect her to quit in two weeks. I figured the end of February, but I guess I was wrong.<p>This doesn't change much for me, I'm still going to be ME. Sure, I wish I could do that with her around, but I can do it without her too. I still hole hope for our marriage. I know in my heart what is the true and right and CHRISTIAN thing for her to do, but I can't force that on her. I wouldn't want her back if she allowed me to do that. I just wish she could have had enough consideration to grant my request for more time.<p>You know, when we discussed her moving back in a couple of weeks ago, this is the very thing that I asked that she NOT do. I told her that I didn't think either of us could handle a prolonged on again, off again situation.... She agreed, but I guess she's forgotten about that.<p>Right now, I know that she needs to work on forgiveness, on getting past the hurt that we've caused her. If being on her own helps that, then I'm all for it. Problem is, I'm pretty sure she's not going to be alone for long, she said that moving out but not filing for divorce doesn't mean that she won't see OM. That one sentence verifies that IT MOST CERTAINLY IS ABOUT HIM. Regardless of the countless claims to the contrary by her. I wonder how many times his name shows up in her journal from the last two weeks. I'd bet my life it's in each daily entry.<p>I wonder if she realizes that each time she thinks about him, it's adultery? She said she's not sure how to make the adultery right with God, I wonder if she thinks that continued lack of repentence is going to provide that? I wonder if she's going to just store up a bunch of adulterous acts/thoughts and then ask for blanket forgiveness? I wonder if God forgives those who are NOT repentent? Does he forgive me if I sin and ask forgiveness, but then willfully go back out and comit the SAME SIN? Isn't part of the grace of God's forgiveness about repentence?<p>These are questions that I have no answer to because I'm a beginner when it comes to what I know about His word.<p>I DO know that I am repentent and forgiven, and that means the world to me.<p>Kev

Kevin,<p>(Just because we can't hear voices on here, I want you to imagine as you read this a kind, loving, calm, friendly voice... K?) <p>You are angry, I understand why, you are so hurt and so frustrated by this, it is so hard because I saw how happy you were when Jill was moving back in. I knew you were concerned that this was too soon also.<p>(Okay remember the sweet voice as you continue reading...)<p>Kevin, first you need to stop trying to hurt her because you are so hurt. Stop judging her, stop telling her this is adultery, she knows this, and please don't say she is only thinking about her own pityful self. Kevin you know she may be reading this...these are all LB's, and all unfair statements.<p>Now, you need to try very hard to calm down. Go do something by yourself and enjoy the rest of your day. I know how hurt you are but she is hurting too. She stayed with you for years and years hoping you would change and it hurts her because you took so long to actually change. She is so wishing you would have changed before the affair...I think in some ways she is still blaming you for the affair, even though she shouldn't be, I see how she could feel this way...<p>Jill,<p>If you are reading this, I know you must be frustrated and hurting too. You wanted to come back and see how it would be. I think you miss the OM so much that this is even tougher for you, I also think you are so concerend if you give Kevin another chance and then a few months from now he goes back to his old ways, then you will lose the OM. If this is true, I do understand this concern and see why you would be concerned about this, but ask yourself these questions....<p>First... regarding the OM...Do you truly see a future with this OM anyway? There are usually too many complications and obstacles for a relationship that started out as an affair to work, therefore, this relationship may be doomed any way, and I also think you may be setting yourself up for a huge heartache if you continue with this guy.<p>Second...a question...Did you truly give your question of wondering if you wanted to give your marriage another chance, a real chance? <p>Third... I have a suggestion. Go back to Kevin, you and he agree to 3 weeks of no discussion of the past hurts, take things lightly, do fun things together and pretend you are a happily married couple again for the entire time...(even if it's pretend.) <p>I truely think this suggestion is the only way you will have the answer to your question of whether you think your marriage is worth another shot. I think you really need this question resolved.<p>Regarding your counselor saying you had weak boundaries. I also had weak boundaries in my marriage. I think perhaps the boundaries you may need to work on are different than the ones you actually did work on, during the few days that you were back. Perhaps you can get a book on setting boundaries, I think it may help you a great deal.<p>Jill and Kevin, things got heated, please calm down and think about what you say and what you do, words can only take a second to say but the after effects can last forever...<p>You have both done some very wrong things in the marriage, remember though, one of the main ways to make a marriage work is by not keeping score...try hard to erase and start over...<p>Take care,<p>ANNA<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Kev,<p>You hit the nail on the head when you said... <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> This doesn't change much for me, I'm still going to be ME. <hr></blockquote>
THAT'S WHAT PLAN A IS ALL ABOUT. You've got to be a better you than you were before, and you have to be it for you. The scenario I'd hope for, for you, is that as she walks out on the new you, still seeing the old you, she'll soon see that life with the OM isn't the fairy tail she thought it was. Then she'll see the new you and realize what she's giving up.
Understand, the old you is a great justification for her doing whatever! The new you isn't going to justify jack. So she can't see the new you or she'll find herself actually being responsible for her actions!!!
I'm sorry that things haven't turned around, but don't assume that it's over. Louise left me twice. I kept being the best me I could be (for me and for our girls) not for her. Early on it was for her, but after she filed for D I just had to accept it and move on. But I didn't want to move on and find myself in another relationship as the old me making the same old mistakes. Well, she kept seeing the new me and I think realized she was giving up a great guy and a great life.<p>Keep us informed. Email if there's anything we can do, for you or Jill.

Kevin,<p>Just checking in and wondering how you are today. <p>I hope you are out enjoying your day.<p>ANNA

Anna2K, <p>Thanks for asking. I'm doing very well today. I've been working in the garage since I got home from church. Building myself a new workbench that folds flat against the wall when I need to have a vehicle in there (can you imagine such a silly idea as to have a car in a garage? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>I'm just going to go about my business and try not to think of anything for a while.<p>I'll keep you all posted.<p>Kev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>Anna2K, <p>I'm just going to go about my business and try not to think of anything for a while.<p>I'll keep you all posted.<p>Kev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Kev, <p>You are a wise man!<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>I wonder if she's going to just store up a bunch of adulterous acts/thoughts and then ask for blanket forgiveness? I wonder if God forgives those who are NOT repentent? Does he forgive me if I sin and ask forgiveness, but then willfully go back out and comit the SAME SIN? Isn't part of the grace of God's forgiveness about repentence?<p>Kev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>God forgives those who are REPENTENT, not those who are gaming the system so they can go out and sin again tomorrow. God is not a cosmic fool. Repent means to TURN AWAY FROM. And thats not to say that a person might not give into the same sin a week later and still receive forgiveness when they repent again, but God knows the person's heart when they ask for forgiveness and knows if they are sincere in thier intent to repent. And *WE* cannot judge that sincerity. <p>[unless they are running off to SEE or call the OM, then we can SEE the level of thier sincerity]