WW back home 1 month after 4 month seperation (living 1000 miles away with OM). No contact with OM for 2 weeks. <p>Seems to be out of fog pretty much. Says she wants to stay, is 100% committed to work on marriage, realizes what a mistake affair was, and that she wished it had never happened. Recovery is going far far better than most I have seen discussed on this board.<p>Main trouble now deals with SF. We have resumed SF and everything is going fairly well. Some old problems cropped up (ED) but are being dealt with effectively (and were to be expected given the recent events I guess). Things are actually better than before in my opinion in that area. I have spoken with WW 3 times in past week concerning our intimate life and issues related to us (which I felt needed to be addressed - not pressuring for frequency or anything) and not to affair. Prior to D day we could talk pretty openly (just chose not to) concerning SF. Now she pretty much clams up and says she doesn't wnat to talk about it. <p>She had counselling session today and afterward we talked. She mentioned affair and we had another open discussion about it. She will discuss affair and has answered all questions I have asked which weren't many in ref to affair but more in relation to her thought process about OM (she still feels she loves him). She stated she doesn't want to talk about SF due to the fact that when she was talking to OM over internet and on phone for the most of the 2+ years EA was going on the main subject was SF (talks initiated by him). She stated that he talked about it all the time. This was new information to me. She also stated that main SF during affair was oral and one sided (her giving). She is 41 he is 58. She states she doesn't like performing oral sex that much in first place (this much I knew) and he pretty much asked for it every day which she complied with to make him happy. When she was about 17 she had affair with married man who was much older than her and who only wanted oral as well. In addition, she was molested as young child by grandfather. She is in process of starting counselling for this as well. These last 2 items I knew for many years. <p>Yes, I did ask her questions concerning affair to try make her see that he was using her for sex (my opinion) and that where as he may have had some feelings for her it sure seemed like he had one main interest in mind and her welfare, etc wasn't at the top of the list. Also mentioned older man, younger woman angle. In her no contact letter to him she mentioned that she was suicidal as well. In a subsequent email he mentioned nothing about her talking about suicide and that he missed making love to her every day. I pointed this out as well. She acknowledges what I say and agrees with it and sees the analogies I point out between the varying statements that she makes. Yet she still tears herself up over hurting him, blaming herself for destroying his marriage (his wife filed for divorce prior to her even moving 1000 miles to be with him), and all the pain that he is in.<p>In reference to us talking about SF I stated that it was a subject which I felt we needed to talk about and it wouldn't be a subject I would shy away from but use tact in when to discuss our personal life and that she needs to try to seperate what happned with OM and what happens with us as it isn't fair to our relationship. The discussion was calm and rational with no LB that I know of. <p>So when I need to discuss the area of SF what is best way to bring things up? Should I just drop if she is nonresponsive or I get feeling she doesn't want to discuss right now or try to get her to respond at least somewhat (her method for dealing with a lot of things is to run as long as possible rather than dealing with it).<p>BTW OM also drinks a gallon of wine a day and smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day. She never saw anything wrong with it. When I spoke to her and asked her what she would think about me doing the same ( I quit drinking a week after she moved out and havent had a drop since and never smoked) she stated she doesn't want me to as it would endanger my health. I pointed out that these 2 statements contradicted each other and she agreed. (This conversation took place about 3 weeks ago and this is the type of questions I would ask her to try to get her to see proper perspective on things - this is also indicative of the type of answers I get to 2 related questions). <p>I know that the fog is patchy in some areas and will take a while to burn off entirely (and she acknowledges this as well). She is also reading SAA for the 2nd time (at my suggestion) as the first time was right after she got home (and the fog was a lot thicker then). <p>One thing I think that is helping her through the fog and to see the fog a bit clearer is that I have been calm and rational throughout this entire mess. Haven't lost my temper once in past 5 months and no matter what she says I remain calm. My psycologist says that I use intellectulizing things as a defense mechanism. It works for me.

Suggestions, comments. Thanks

Hi GVT,<p>Sounds like you are doing what works!!! This is good. Us women can be very hard to figure out. You are using reasoning and common sense. Can't argue with that no matter how hard we may try. <p>Your patience may be tested. Looks like your W holds you to a higher standard than the OM. While this is a good thing, it may make you tired. Why? Because you may feel it is unfair. Well it is, but it also means that in a subtle way, she is saying she knows you are better than that drunkin OM. <p>Good for U! <p>Take care and keep up the good work!<p>L.

It seems to me that if you are having sex and it isn't as great as it could be, you don't solve that by TALKING about it. Unless you are talking during sex.<p>You are very lucky that your wife has the self-awareness to realize that the OM's proclivities have turned her off to certain things, and that she shared that with you. I think it would be a mistake for you to push her to talk about sex when she has told you she doesn't want to right now. You said "things are better than before" in that department, and you acknowledge that you tend to over-intellectualize things. Is this about a real problem that needs to be addressed or just your need for analysis?<p>Shut up and go make love with your wife.<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>

Getting very tired,<p>Count your blessing ... and do not try to educate your wife, a losing proposition. Good to hear from you. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Charynne<p>There are some items which need to be addressed in this arena. Granted it would be great to address them in the throes of passion and have them magically solve themselves. However, sometimes things don't work out that way.<p>Are things better? Yes<p>Am I trying to rush things to make everything better at once ? Maybe<p>Could this just be my need for analysis? Possibly<p>However, one of my BIG LB in the past is not opening up and expressing my feelings about things (anything for that matter). Bottling up problems and emotions and just ignoring them and living with the status quo. We both did that with about 99% of the things in our marriage. That is one of the main reasons we wound up in this mess. She did try to break down some of those walls every now and then but I was tight as a clam. I am trying to change that aspect of me.
And this area is one that has given us problems at least in my department for the past 5 years or so. I refuse to duck the problems again on a long term basis. And yes I have told my wife that I feel a major part of the problem is my male ego which I can intellectualize all I want but I still live with. Therein lies the rub.<p>As for your last suggestion I would be happy to follow it and talking about it has given me some insight on things I need to be careful of (ie triggers of memories which will hopefully fade in time). Remember that we are not just dealing with the affair but the childhood abuse issue as well. Things are better in this area (and to be honest all other ones as well) but the 4th of July aint quite here yet.<p>----------
Redhat<p>She actually listens to what I say and acknowledges the sense of it. Then that patch of fog rolls in again. Thankfully they seem to be thinning out considerably.

GVT, give your wife some time. I still say that if she recognizes that talking about sex reminds her of the affair and makes her feel bad, and she has shared hat with you, respect that. IMHO, sex is the one emotional need we can fulfill with almost no verbal communication. Of course, if one partner is doing something or asking for something that is a total turn off to the other, then the time has come to speak up!<p>Without asking you to get graphic, I don't understand what you feel the need to talk about. If you have a medical problem, you can talk about potential treatments for it (have you looked into Viagra?) without having to talk about what you want to be doing after the equipment is again in working order. And I'm not saying you should never expect to discuss it ever again, only that for the present time you respect your wife's difficulty with the topic.<p>I will be a little explicit here-- there have been times in my life when I have enjoyed giving oral sex, and times when I have not. But I have never been very turned on by being asked to do it-- or worse, by being grabbed by the back of the neck to have my head moved to the appropriate position. Let's face it, it is a pretty submissive, subserviant thing to do, so you have to want to be doing it or else it's a pretty denigrating experience. I can joyously "get down on my knees" when it's my idea, but not otherwise. And when I'm on the receiving side, it feels as if I'm being worshipped-- no way could I compel that kind of attention against my husband's preference. If your wife has been in a situation in which she felt compelled to perform, she probably has a lot of residual baggage from the experience.<p>It sounds like your wife is trying to come to terms with a whole lot of crap in her life all at once. Give her a little space in this area, as she needs it and she's asked you for it.

And what are you doing up so early? I got kicked out of bed about 3 AM (Eastern) when my 4 year old and then my 10 year old came into our queen sized bed to sleep with us-- four is a crowd!

Charynne<p>As far what am I doing up? Working unfortunately. At least I have a job where I can serf the net most of the night.<p>As far Viagra. Got that. And prior to the affair a lot of times that wasn't helping at all. Low sex drive coupled with that and my ego was shot. We had a couple of years of duty sex with almost no passion every few weeks or so and add the affair on top. So couple that with one or 2 other things and yes we had some issues to discuss. I did bring it up only after we had had SF a few times and at the time that the issue seemed appropriate to discuss and in an appropriate way.<p>As for the oral part. My wife is much the same as you in that area. But it took 4 talks and my asking a direct question concerning her lack of responses in that area to get to see the issue more clearly. Top that with our (and especially my) history of hiding/not talking about emotions/problems and you can see that I am trying to handle some big snakes. I am the the type that needs a VERY clear map to see the forest for the trees. And this is one forest where I don't want to stumble. I am not asking questions that a lot of folks due at times like this such as where, how many times, what positions, etc. I have no desire to know those things and have told her as such. I know that asking those questions doesn't give me answers that I (personally) need to try to make the marriage better and I have no desire to know them or have her feel uncomfortable answering them. She has volunteered some of the details but I have always told her that in the area of those questions whatever she feels comfortable talking about.<p>As far as time, yes I am giving it to her and won't be discussing anymore issues in that area until she brings them up or for at least a while anyway. Same with initiating SF. I let her know that I am interested but in no way push the idea and for the most part let her initiate most of the time. <p>Thanks for the input though.

OK, the picture is getting a little clearer.<p>Have you ever read Men are form Mars, Women are form Venus? If not, read it. If you have, re-read it. I think you'll get the information you need from your wife if you can make yourself communicate like a woman instead of like a man.<p>Here's something you said that I think indicates a problem:<p>"OM also drinks a gallon of wine a day and smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day. She never saw anything wrong with it. When I spoke to her and asked her what she would think about me doing the same ( I quit drinking a week after she moved out and havent had a drop since and never smoked) she stated she doesn't want me to as it would endanger my health. I pointed out that these 2 statements contradicted each other and she agreed. (This conversation took place about 3 weeks ago and this is the type of questions I would ask her to try to get her to see proper perspective on things - this is also indicative of the type of answers I get to 2 related questions)."<p>In this exchange, you are trying to be the teacher, to get her to see the error in her thinking. If she perceives you as testing her and judging her responses, she won't want to share her thoughts and feelings with you. It is so hard to do-- I am more masculine in this respect, I'm a problem solver and I want to make everyone UNDERSTAND why I'm right, so I know how tough it is to just listen.<p>Try to avoid making this dry and clinical. Maybe you can chose a time when there are no distractions, and the two of you can be physically close (either after sex or not) and you can say something like, "I feel so close to you, I want to tell you about some things that are on my mind." Then speak from your heart about what you feel-- not trying to convince her to agree with you, not trying to rationalize, just to share. Then let her respond if she wants to and when she's ready. If she just listens, then let her. Don't prod her for a response, don't ask her if she thinks A or B. And when she does respond, just listen. Try not to ask her to clarify and definitely do not explain to her why she's wrong. And unless she asks you point blank for a solution, don't offer one. If there are things you want to find out specifically, tell her how you feel and wait for her to respond. For example, you could say "I feel like I make you uncomfortable when I ____, and I'm not sure why that is. I don't want to do anything that makes you feel bad." Or "I really love it when we _____. I hope that makes you happy too." Then be ready to listen or just be quiet. I guarantee you that even if she says nothing, her mind will be working on what you've said, and when she's ready to talk she will.<p>If you share what you feel, and give her the opportunity to reciprocate on her own terms without being judged, you will learn more from her than you ever could by quizzing her.<p>[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>