I think this is a good time to revive my old debate about Plan B. For some time now, I've had a developing theory, and it came up on another thread, so I thought I'd re-start it here and see what other feedback we can get. This was an exchange that started in a thread called "Interesting" a couple of days ago:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>by Spacecase-
I've had a developing Theory about Plan B that goes something like this:

If we go through the entire Plan A process and we are lucky enough to run into the end of the A, or our WS "wakes up" and decides to end it and work on the M, perhaps we succeeded, but perhaps we did not achieve enough of a lifelong learning experience for our WS. <p>I've begun to feel that even if I never HAVE to go to Plan B, unless I do, my WW will not REALLY "get it", and that perhaps the educational value of Plan B may be a very positive thing for the future. <p>I know; most people will tell me I want to punish her, but it's really not like that at all. I have come to believe that actually being in a situation that "feels" like divorce, and the other effects Plan B will undoubtedly have on the WS really can be a very positive educational experience for the future. <p>I can see my W suddenly having to actually face the consequence of her A, perhaps choosing to REALLY learn about MB principles, commit to them, perhaps making a truer/closer self evaluation, and I think it would be good for her and for our marriage in the long term.<p>I have a great fear of this, of this lesson not being learned, because she has been VERY reluctant to change, learn, collaborate, cooperate, compromise, commit: not only after the A was discovered, but always (for many years). And we obviously DID NOT learn our lessons after her first A 14 years ago, and her indecisiveness in all aspects of her life has been a permanent fixture of our M for many years.<p>If she never experiences that feeling, perhaps she'll never really understand how I felt when I found out, or some of the other painful turmoil I've gone thru during all of this Plan A learning process.
Just my thoughts.<hr></blockquote><p>and this reply:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>hope4future
Member
Member # 16943 <p>Spacecase...I agree with you completely. I hate to...I'd love to think it's possible to "get it" totally without needing to feel the heat. But in most cases like yours or JR's...I don't think it works that way. Tutter is an example of a WS who's affair was discovered and she IMMEDIATLY was repentant and initiated NC without hesitation. She made a stupid mistake and it almost cost their marriage...she saw that and put forth effort to fix it. This isn't the case with you, nor is it with JR....nor was it with us. I know that if I hadn't gotten out on my own for a while I would not have made the personal growth I did and would not have learned to appreciate my H like I do.<hr></blockquote><p>what do you think?

Spacey,
This doesn't really answer your question, but reminded me... did you ever get a chance to read that Heartpain thread I mentioned to you? I was just curious what you thought about it, if anything. It may not stir any of those brain cells, but if it does... (you know - not everyone is "stirred" by the same stuff) .... well... anyway.. I think it's a great post by a wise veteran. Here's the link, FWIW:<p>Post-recovery musings<p>I will ponder your ponderings and come back to your Plan B discussion later. You're a smart fellow, and I admire your commitment and diligence in digging at this stuff. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm rootin' for you and your marriage!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

I only read your last post re: Plan B. <p>My 2 cents. People MISTAKE Plan B as punishment but it isn't. It is a natural consequence to someones actions. It is Love in action (tough love). NOT allowing someone to reap the consequences of their actions is enabling them. In other words you are contributing to the affair by allowing it to continue with no natural consequence. The problem with America today is there are no consequences - people break laws, steal, kill and their punishment: a chushy prison with cable tv...their meals are cooked for them - no real responsibility. <p>There is a difference between loving rebuke and LB. That is another problem people confuse the two:<p>loving rebuke = Honey, I love you and I want our marriage to work but I will not allow this behavior to continue - if you want her THATS fine but you can't have me too. (loving rebuke: loves the person and hates the action)<p>LB = You sorry $#@$@$# what the $#@$@$# where you thinking? What the $#@$@$# is wrong with you? I don't need this $#@$@$#. Get the $#@$@$# out of my house! (LB: says the person is defective and hates the person)<p>I've said it before... MY whole marriage was Plan A before I knew what Plan A was. MY part of contributing to the A was by NOT confronting, by pushing everything under the rug, by not holding him accountable, by being naive, by being too trusting or trusting blindly, by trusting his words and not his actions. Anyway, every situation is unique and different. Some people where LB before A and where not giving into the relationship either THUS Plan A is necessary in some situations. <p>Anyway, what I am trying to say is Plan B is love. We discipline our children because we love them and we want them to make wise choices - not because we want them to PAY for their mistakes. The problem is our partners may not have gotten discipline when growing up so we are, in a sense, having to raise them too. On the other side, I never learned how to confront so I am having to raise myself too. I am trying to teach my kids so they can function as adults instead of being a 33 year old in a teenage body.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Spacey,
This doesn't really answer your question, but reminded me... did you ever get a chance to read that Heartpain thread I mentioned to you? I was just curious what you thought about it, if anything. It may not stir any of those brain cells, but if it does... (you know - not everyone is "stirred" by the same stuff) .... well... anyway.. I think it's a great post by a wise veteran. Here's the link, FWIW:<p>Post-recovery musings<p>I will ponder your ponderings and come back to your Plan B discussion later. You're a smart fellow, and I admire your commitment and diligence in digging at this stuff. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm rootin' for you and your marriage!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I absolutely agree with Heartpain. Granted, it did take me a while longer than others to "get it", and my left-brained self was very reluctant to "let go", but I have, at least partially, and I fully understand that Plan A and Plan B are primarily about the WS.<p>However, both Plans DO have some possible/desired/potential effects on the WS, and really that side of it is what I am pondering here. Much the same way as I, as the BS, have learned about myself, about so many things by doing Plan A, (and will learn if I do Plan B), I believe both Plans also have a learning element for the WS. It is precisely that "learning element" of Plan B on the WS that I am debating here.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>I only read your last post re: Plan B. <p>My 2 cents. People MISTAKE Plan B as punishment but it isn't. It is a natural consequence to someones actions. It is Love in action (tough love). NOT allowing someone to reap the consequences of their actions is enabling them. In other words you are contributing to the affair by allowing it to continue with no natural consequence. The problem with America today is there are no consequences - people break laws, steal, kill and their punishment: a chushy prison with cable tv...their meals are cooked for them - no real responsibility. <p>There is a difference between loving rebuke and LB. That is another problem people confuse the two:<p>loving rebuke = Honey, I love you and I want our marriage to work but I will not allow this behavior to continue - if you want her THATS fine but you can't have me too. (loving rebuke: loves the person and hates the action)<p>LB = You sorry $#@$@$# what the $#@$@$# where you thinking? What the $#@$@$# is wrong with you? I don't need this $#@$@$#. Get the $#@$@$# out of my house! (LB: says the person is defective and hates the person)<p>I've said it before... MY whole marriage was Plan A before I knew what Plan A was. MY part of contributing to the A was by NOT confronting, by pushing everything under the rug, by not holding him accountable, by being naive, by being too trusting or trusting blindly, by trusting his words and not his actions. Anyway, every situation is unique and different. Some people where LB before A and where not giving into the relationship either THUS Plan A is necessary in some situations. <p>Anyway, what I am trying to say is Plan B is love. We discipline our children because we love them and we want them to make wise choices - not because we want them to PAY for their mistakes. The problem is our partners may not have gotten discipline when growing up so we are, in a sense, having to raise them too. On the other side, I never learned how to confront so I am having to raise myself too. I am trying to teach my kids so they can function as adults instead of being a 33 year old in a teenage body.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree completely Iluv.<p>However, what I was proposing was a discussion about the potential "educational" effects of Plan B on the WS and their potential benefits to the future of the M.<p>I said "many will say I am trying to punish the WS" in the sense that I'm sure many would ask "why would you go to Plan B if you don't NEED to?", and I propose that it might be a valuable educational experience for both of us, and especially for the WS, in case there is still any doubt as to the committment required to be maintained in the future.

ooooooohhhhhhh<p>I see...<p>I would say there is no sense going to Plan B unless it is absolutely necessary. If they are sorry and are taking baby steps towards recovery then there is no reason to go to Plan B. otherwise THAT would be punishing. The thing to look at is the big picture. My H is not always growing and doing things at the mature pace I want him to do things BUT as long as I see he is consistantly making an effort that is all I really ask. The things that cause Plan B is 1) continued contact and 2) possibly dishonesty. We had an issue where I caught him in a lie and we discussed separation (Plan B) but we got to the root of the problem, he agreed our goal is honesty and I learned my controlling is what contributes to his dishonesty. So we are both more aware of what caused the lie now and are working towards fixing that in ourselves. <p>BUT ANY contact is immediate Plan B for us...because of where we are right now in our recovery. You two have not even established "no contact" yet but I imagine that will be coming soon. <p>So...back to the beginning...Plan B is a consequence to their actions, if they are sorry and remorseful I don't think they should reap that consequence. BUT their actions should SHOW they are sorry and remorseful. For my H to continue to SAY he is SOOOOOOOO sorry YET continue the same behavior is insane! <p>It is like my son, sometimes he is so hard on himself for say... a bad grade that I don't punish him. If he brings home an F on one test but his overall grade is a B then I don't punish him for making a mistake. It is part of being human, we have to allow for mistakes, we are striving for perfection but at the same time we know we will never achieve and we have to come to a place of peace with that.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ok. Sounds good.<p>OK, I will give my perspective and experience with Plan B. My story is more evidence why Plan B can NOT be expected to teach the WS anything, can not be expected to bring them around, and is designed truly for the protection of the BS. <p>I think the main reason Plan B is described mainly as "being for the benefit of the BS", is that every situation is different - every affair - every WS and OP.<p>ok... WHen I went to Plan B, I didn't hear anything from WS. No reaction to the letter - immediate or delayed. He probably thought to himself, "whew! I don't have to listen to her anymore! I am FREEEEE to do as I please! And I don't have to worry about trying to be nice to her either!" I gave him the freedom to continue in his A, without having to face his guilt due to my pain and/or disapproval. OW was probably glad also, because I wouldn't be "manipulating" her boyfriend anymore.<p>So, in HIS state of the A, Plan B didn't make him wake up one bit. Was he glad to escape my LB's? Well, no. I had been doing a pretty good Plan A - best I could in separation. He was glad to escape his guilt though. Out of sight - out of mind.<p>NOW that the affair is OVER, he is dying to talk to me. I broke Plan B since the A is over, and he's in counseling. He knows - as soon as a relationship with OW resumes - I'm outta here. RIght now, he's valuing my friendship, and says he missed me very much. <p>He also tells me that his R with OW started going downhill in January (right after Plan B) - hmmmmmm... because SHE was all of a sudden responsible for meeting all his needs, and she couldn't do it!!!<p>I believe most WS's want the friendship of the BS. They "love us, but are not IN love with us", right? So ending all contact in Plan B really does stop meeting some of their needs. Some of them miss those needs bad enough to end the A. Some not. Depends on lots of factors (kids, and OP's behavior being 2 big ones). <p>Anyway... giving the WS a glimpse of life without the BS is a big part of Plan B, but you can't count on it to "wake them up" - at least not immediately.<p>**** One more thought... it's our job to discipline our kids, but not our spouse. So be very careful when thinking of Plan B to "teach them a lesson". I think the "lesson" comes as a natural result when you implement plan B to protect yourself from LB's, to protect the love left for your spouse.****<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Faith;<p>you said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Anyway... giving the WS a glimpse of life without the BS is a big part of Plan B, but you can't count on it to "wake them up" - at least not immediately.<p>**** One more thought... it's our job to discipline our kids, but not our spouse. So be very careful when thinking of Plan B to "teach them a lesson". I think the "lesson" comes as a natural result when you implement plan B to protect yourself from LB's, to protect the love left for your spouse.****<p> <hr></blockquote><p>My theory is neither of these; it is not meant to "wake them up" nor to "teach them a lesson", in the sense that it is not meant as punishment.<p>It is, perhaps, a more "tough love" approach, which I believe could have significant educational benefits, rather than as a lesson.<p>And naturally, it would be illogical to do it if contact had ended and all efforts were put in place to keep it that way. Nothing could justify Plan B in those circumstances.

Iluv;
you said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> So...back to the beginning...Plan B is a consequence to their actions, if they are sorry and remorseful I don't think they should reap that consequence. BUT their actions should SHOW they are sorry and remorseful. For my H to continue to SAY he is SOOOOOOOO sorry YET continue the same behavior is insane! <p> <hr></blockquote><p>Correct. My thought process goes something like this:<p>-My WW is showing signs of coming around, but I'm not really sure yet; her actions have not backed up her words yet.
-Also, she lied for SO long, and has done very little to re-establish trust.
-and she's been SO resistant to MC (we're on our third one),
-and she has shown that she accepts "some" of the Harley process, but not all, (and I wonder what THAT will be),
-She has shown much more commitment to the A and the OP than to me or our M, at least in behavior, if not physically being with him.<p>So, I can definitely see her coming around enough that we could say we may enter recovery. However, it is a "semi-reluctant" recovery in a sense, in that the resistance has been great, the time has been long (9 months since dday), and it feels like much of what is finally seeming to sink in is more like "OK, I can live with that" rather than "That is an excellent idea, I love it", so it seems to me that perhaps, using Plan B as a tool, we might be able to bring about a more profound introspection, acceptance, and realization that the level of commitment has to be greater than just "OK, I can live with that."

ok. I guess "lessons" is similar to "educational benefits".. ??<p>I meant that the "lessons", or educational benefit, comes as a natural by-product, and shouldn't be the BS's focus and reason for Plan B. THey undoubtedly "learn" something, but not necessarily what we think they should learn, nor in the time-frame we think they should. Therefore, we shouldn't *expect* anything from Plan B other than our own growth and safety. <p>I also tried to mention in my story the various educational benefits of Plan B. If this is not what you're getting at, then you're over my head. I understand that you're not out to punish your wife. SO if you're exploring the educational benefits to Plan B for the WS, here's my only attempt at a contribution to this topic [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Else, I not be understanding your question [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] , and will let others take it from here. (you may want to start a new thread for the discussion of Plan B, inorder to get more attention.)<p>

• WS is forced into a situation of having ALL EN's met by OP. This usually ends up causing great tension, major LB's, and sometimes the end of the A relationship.
• WS realizes the value of the BS - realizes which needs were truly being met in the marriage - that they took for granted or were too foggy to see.
• WS may begin to realize their own faults, as they see the A relationship crumble.
• WS will begin to see the faults of the OP, which they may have been too foggy to see before.
• WS may realize they miss their kids too much to actually be willing to leave the marriage.

<p>Due to the ongoing A, other educational benefits received by the BS are rarely recieved by the WS; growth, research and learning, self-reflection and introspection, development of self strength, spiritual growth. After the WS realizes they made a bad choice by having an A, then they will usually enter into this period of growth that the BS has already been in. <p>SOrry if this is still not what you're interested in. I just felt I needed to try to clarify what I tried to get at in my story.

Faith;<p>I know we might have a semantics problem here; it's just that the phrase "teching them a lesson" sounds to me more like revenge than education. And I know that may not be what you meant at all.<p>But you make a VERY good point:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Due to the ongoing A, other educational benefits received by the BS are rarely recieved by the WS; growth, research and learning, self-reflection and introspection, development of self strength, spiritual growth. After the WS realizes they made a bad choice by having an A, then they will usually enter into this period of growth that the BS has already been in. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>Do you really believe that after the A is over, and the M is in recovery, the WS really DOES enter into this "period of growth" that the BS has presumably already been through?<p>Is this anecdotal, or is it just a presumption on your part?<p>My fear is that once the "threat of loss" disappears, and the M enters recovery, the WS may not have such a great incentive to "learn" more...maybe I'm just an old cynic! Lost my faith in humanity...

semantics... tee-hee [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ... you said "use Plan B as a tool..." and something else.. "to go to Plan B, unless I do, my WW will not REALLY "get it"," ... probably just a difference in wording, and you're probably right that "teaching them a lesson" sounds more vengeful and manipulative than your words... but... WELL, YOU know what you mean - although it looks the same to me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>My main concern is the way you are "thinking" about it - putting all phrase-ology aside. If you are thinking of it as a possible means of you both learning, it's important to realize that Plan B (and separation) are very risky, and a longer Plan A may be the better route - giving the WS time to explore and make decisions on their own. As they gain trust that the BS has truly made long-term changes and becoming someone they can fall back in love with, and as the A usually dies a natural death.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you really believe that after the A is over, and the M is in recovery, the WS really DOES enter into this "period of growth" that the BS has presumably already been through?<hr></blockquote><p>ummm... perhaps "the WS probably wouldn't strive to grow and learn AT LEAST until they face the fact that they made a bad choice" is a better way to word it. Some do, some don't. You've seen it here. Some try to sweep it under the rug. Some try to learn and try to improve themselves as well as make the marriage stronger. The SAME goes for many BS's as well. Many BS's go back to same old habits and contentment once the marriage seems to be recovered. Some BS's insist on the WS doing all the work and that they don't need to change. <p>But, anyway... everyone's different. Actually, Spacey, judging by the ratio of WS's to BS's on this forum, one might conclude that the majority never reach that desire to learn and grow. BUT they may be doing it in other ways besides this forum.<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

SC:<p>I don't have much time, because my laptop's battery is going down, but I wanted to say: <p>Don't expect that much right away. I know I can't. But she's trying. My WW is also trying. She isn't "there" enough for me yet, but I'm hopeful. At the same time, I can "feel" that I can't tolerate this for much longer. I can truly feel myself "falling out of love" with my W, and so some things she said to me on the way out here yesterday alarm me a bit (but only a bit, because I know what I'll do):<p>(1) She said OM hasn't responded to her queries about her report: I am getting to the point that *I'll* be sending the [censored] an email of my own - get off the damned pot, OM! He's been paid, and he's only hurting my W with his delays.
(2) She said report may take until October to complete, so contact with OM until then. I'm going to have to have a TALK with her about this. We're seriously cutting into the plan B "deadline" I set for myself 2 months ago, and I need CLOSURE.
(3) For "comparable data", my W would need further work from him for another YEAR. I won't tolerate this. Period. I haven't told her that, and was hoping to wait until our next MC to bring it up (next week). But there you are.<p>Getting along well, otherwise. But I won't be shaggin' it with "OM's girlfriend" either, for much longer. (It actually feels like that to me sometimes. I know that a lot of that feeling is my own "fault" not hers, but it's getting harder to shake while contact, however limited, continues).<p>No discussion yet about that august conference. Going to be some, though.<p>Take care. I gotta get back to work..

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Do you really believe that after the A is over, and the M is in recovery, the WS really DOES enter into this "period of growth" that the BS has presumably already been through?<p>My fear is that once the "threat of loss" disappears, and the M enters recovery, the WS may not have such a great incentive to "learn" more... <hr></blockquote><p>Just wanted to pipe in here on this statement. <p>One thing I have learned through this all is that I have choices. I was miserable in my marriage when A was going on BUT I didn't choose to do anything about it. I could've chose to have my own A (bad choice) OR I could've chose to get a divorce. But What I have learned is the choice is always mine to stay or go. You seem to be struggeling with "what if" we get into recovery and you are still the one doing all the work. Recovery is more than "no contact". You have a choice whether to stay in a meaningless relationship or not whether or not there is an OM present or not. Once she committs with "no contact" you do not have to allow it to be as good as it gets. That is why it is so important to continue counseling. Set appropriate boundaries that where lacking that lead to an A in the first place AND recognize if you are miserable and W is unwilling to meet needs the door is always open for you to leave the relationship. It doesn't have to be a consequence of A only. <p>I think the most harmful thought-pattern I had while there was continued contact is: divorce is not an option. Once I came to accept that it most certainly is an option and is sometimes necessary THEN I was able to set appropriate boundaries in my marriage...To draw the line in the sand...To decide what I am willing and not willing to live with...To find myself...To define my life...<p>The ability to accept the things I can not change
The courage to change the thing I can
AND
the Wisdom to know the difference.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>I don't have much time, because my laptop's battery is going down, but I wanted to say: <p>Don't expect that much right away. I know I can't. But she's trying. My WW is also trying. She isn't "there" enough for me yet, but I'm hopeful. At the same time, I can "feel" that I can't tolerate this for much longer. I can truly feel myself "falling out of love" with my W, and so some things she said to me on the way out here yesterday alarm me a bit (but only a bit, because I know what I'll do):<p>(1) She said OM hasn't responded to her queries about her report: I am getting to the point that *I'll* be sending the [censored] an email of my own - get off the damned pot, OM! He's been paid, and he's only hurting my W with his delays.
(2) She said report may take until October to complete, so contact with OM until then. I'm going to have to have a TALK with her about this. We're seriously cutting into the plan B "deadline" I set for myself 2 months ago, and I need CLOSURE.
(3) For "comparable data", my W would need further work from him for another YEAR. I won't tolerate this. Period. I haven't told her that, and was hoping to wait until our next MC to bring it up (next week). But there you are.<p>Getting along well, otherwise. But I won't be shaggin' it with "OM's girlfriend" either, for much longer. (It actually feels like that to me sometimes. I know that a lot of that feeling is my own "fault" not hers, but it's getting harder to shake while contact, however limited, continues).<p>No discussion yet about that august conference. Going to be some, though.<p>Take care. I gotta get back to work..</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey 2L, thought we'd lost you!
Sounds like you and I both go through these up-and-down phases pretty regularly (I bet there's folks here saying; geez, these two guys are just gonna have to learn to level out that roller-coaster!) but anyway; I fully sympathize; feel exactly the same all the time, like enough is enough, like alrighty-then, let's get ON with it! <p>But I think when we stop and think, and we get calmed down by some more level-headed folks here, we realize this.<p>There's only so much time we can give this, I realize that. And it's very hard to keep extending the deadlines, usually based on pretty small steps forward. But unfortunately, we're on different time-clocks; those Venusian clocks run a lot slower than ours, and we must also remember that the WWs haven't had the benefit of learning about all this stuff, so their priorities and decision-making are off from ours.<p>I'll tell you this, though; it really was Steve Harley who helped me through that, who gave me the extra will-power boost to stick it out a bit longer. And I'm seeing some results already (as you've seen) so try to hang in there and get over this hump; do try, though, to work with the MC on a more "accelerated" plan, or at least to give some prioroty to attending to those 2-3 critical issues for you. I think if you begin to see more progress in those, it'll be better.<p>Take care, and enjoy the "OM's girlfriend" for a few days! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm with you Iluv;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>One thing I have learned through this all is that I have choices. I was miserable in my marriage when A was going on BUT I didn't choose to do anything about it. I could've chose to have my own A (bad choice) OR I could've chose to get a divorce. But What I have learned is the choice is always mine to stay or go. You seem to be struggeling with "what if" we get into recovery and you are still the one doing all the work. Recovery is more than "no contact". You have a choice whether to stay in a meaningless relationship or not whether or not there is an OM present or not. Once she committs with "no contact" you do not have to allow it to be as good as it gets. That is why it is so important to continue counseling. Set appropriate boundaries that where lacking that lead to an A in the first place AND recognize if you are miserable and W is unwilling to meet needs the door is always open for you to leave the relationship. It doesn't have to be a consequence of A only. <p>I think the most harmful thought-pattern I had while there was continued contact is: divorce is not an option. Once I came to accept that it most certainly is an option and is sometimes necessary THEN I was able to set appropriate boundaries in my marriage...To draw the line in the sand...To decide what I am willing and not willing to live with...To find myself...To define my life...<p> <hr></blockquote><p>I totally get this. No question about it. But see, here's the thing:<p>I'm 43, my kids are all grown up (1 in college, the other 2 will be in 2 years), and this is the second such incident (THAT I KNOW OF!).
And I'm thinking I don't have time to keep playing games here. If we can make this work, REALLY make it work, and do it the RIGHT way all the way, then OK, I'm willing to stick it out and put in the effort, time, money, emotion, everything it needs to be done right. I'm getting too old to be thinking that it's OK if this lasts another 5 years.
So; in order to feel good about doing all of that, putting in all that effort, time, etc. I want to be fairly sure that she's as committed as I am to this. I don't want this to be just another smoke-screen for a couple of years and then be going through it again.
I know the level of committment I've put into it, and I'm willing to continue to put into it. I also know it won't happen overnight, and it'll be an on-going process. But what I want to see, feel pretty confident about, is to feel SHE has at least a similar level of committment to doing her part. If I don't feel she's in the "Hey-this-is-a-VERY-good-idea, I'm-there" mode, and rather feel she's in the "OK, I-can-live-with-that-if-you-insist" mode, then I'm not sure I WANT to try to stick it out.<p>'s all...

I hear you! I can relate!<p>BUT unfortunately there are no guarantees. You can committ to 4 months and then re-evaluate. I think you are at a REALLY big turning point with her willingness to counsel with Steve. I think the very near future will tell her committment level. You just won't know today.

Spacecase - <p>I read your thread whenever I can. I just read about the day your jaw dropped when your W admitted like Steve Harley, etc. It just brought a smile to my face and my eyes welled up with tears. I hope we can get there too! Thank you!<p>Llama

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>I hear you! I can relate!<p>BUT unfortunately there are no guarantees. You can committ to 4 months and then re-evaluate. I think you are at a REALLY big turning point with her willingness to counsel with Steve. I think the very near future will tell her committment level. You just won't know today.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know it won't happen today; I'm just watching for signs of it. Hopefully the next couple of weeks, when the contact info comes in and how she deals with that, next sessions with Steve, we'll see.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by llama:
<strong>Spacecase - <p>I read your thread whenever I can. I just read about the day your jaw dropped when your W admitted like Steve Harley, etc. It just brought a smile to my face and my eyes welled up with tears. I hope we can get there too! Thank you!<p>Llama</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Glad to have you around, Llama, and very glad you can find hope and encouragement here.<p>It is amazing to read some of the older stuff, and where we are today...and even more amazing; it's onle been a few months...even though it feels like FOREVER! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]